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Ida Hearst

Summerhall is central to the series

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When Greyscaled Euron blows his horn in earshot of Drogon and his child, then dies, and Drogon becomes the stone beast, then the secret will be out.

Given the horn artwork being associated with Winds I suggest it is going to happen in Winds, but then the Dance of Dragons didn't happen in the book named a Dance with Dragons.

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On 3/2/2019 at 6:03 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm not sure if it was the deaths by fire, the kingsblood, the attempt to hatch dragons, sorcery, the birth of Rhaegar, or any combination of these things, but I think something at Summerhall somehow jolted the heart of winter. Some readers consider Summerhall to be too early to be a catalyst for the Others but I don't think that's necessarily so.

I don't think it's too early. Considering that the CotF (and by extension probably the Others) live on longer timescales than humans, it does not seem like a stretch that it would take ~40 years for the reaction to become noticeable. Add in some internecine conflict about whether to deploy the Others at all (assuming my factions theory turns out to be anywhere near the truth), and the timeline makes perfect sense.

It would also help explain the level of desperation among the various tribes of the free folk, if the threat of the Others has been growing up north for a while instead of suddenly coming up closer to AGoT.

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9 minutes ago, Ida Hearst said:

I don't think it's too early. Considering that the CotF (and by extension probably the Others) live on longer timescales than humans, it does not seem like a stretch that it would take ~40 years for the reaction to become noticeable. Add in some internecine conflict about whether to deploy the Others at all (assuming my factions theory turns out to be anywhere near the truth), and the timeline makes perfect sense.

It would also help explain the level of desperation among the various tribes of the free folk, if the threat of the Others has been growing up north for a while instead of suddenly coming up closer to AGoT.

I agree.

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On 3/2/2019 at 9:30 AM, Ida Hearst said:

That's what I thought until I read the passage on Summerhall in TWoIaF. It's just so obviously, uncharacteristically fragmentary, it's hard to read as anything else than a cop-out. (I used to be deep into Star Wars lore before the reboot, and this is exactly what they'd always do in secondary material when they didn't want to spoil upcoming media.)

To be clear, I think Summerhall works great as a sidenote in history as well, as a symbolic foil for Daenerys and an illustration of the Targaryen obsession with dragons. I won't be disappointed if that's "all" it is -- but all things considered, I have a strong suspicion that there's going to be more to it.

We will have to disagree on this.  Summerhall is connected to Rhaegar.  A man who thought he was important.  Now we know that he doesn't have any more significance other than being a member of the royal family.  

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20 hours ago, JRRStark said:

Very interesting. Yes Ned wouldn't harm Jon but Robert certainly would. He is the true heir, ans also in Roberts eyes the result of Lyanna's rape. From the kingsguard point of view, Ned is Roberts right hand man and therefore a threat to Jon. They would not hand him over to him. Jon is the king and they are sworn to protect him no matter what they believe Ned's intentions. But also what was Lyannas intentions. Why would she object to Jon being installed as king. Did she know about TPTWP, hard to see her not knowing what Rheagar knew. 

No, no, no. That's not what I meant.

The thing is, is that we don't know the reason, why those Kingsguards took Jon away. Maybe, they did it not to protect him. And, maybe, they didn't saw him as their King. They didn't went to Dragonstone to serve to Viserys. Even though Aerys, prior his death, had proclaimed Viserys as his heir. So if those 3KG were still loyal to Targaryens, then they would have went to Dragonstone. But they didn't. Robert became King of 7K. So, maybe, those KG were intending to go to Robert. Because it doesn't matter, who is the King, the Kingsguards will still serve to him. A Kingsguard is a permanent post, for life. Thus, even if the King changes, the Kingsguards will continue serving to a new King. Could be that, when Robert had seized King's Landing, he was trying to find those missing three Kingsguards. Last time they were seen, was when they were kidnapping Lyanna. So Robert was trying to find them, to find her thru them. So when he became King, he sent ravens all over 7K, informing everyone about this. Maybe, he also had sent additional message to those 3KG (even though he didn't knew, where they were at that time, he just sent that message everywhere), with demand to return to King's Landing, from wherever they were, and to bring Lyanna with them, if she is alive. Maybe, because Lyanna was dying, they left her at Starfall, and took only her child with them. Or, maybe, they took Lyanna too. Could be, that, when Ned was at Storm's End, he had received information, that Lyanna is at Starfall. But, by the time he arrived there, she was already taken away together with Jon. Ashara Dayne told Ned what happened, and he went after them. In this case, Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, and both scenes - the fight against 3KG, and Lyanna in a bed of blood - happened at the same location, at the Tower of Joy, but Jon was born at Starfall. Or second option, is that those KG took with them only Jon, and left dying Lyanna at Starfall. In this case Ned witnessed Lyanna's final moments, gave her that promise, this happened at Starfall, and then he departed towards the Tower of Joy, where later the fight had happened.

So when Ned confronted those KG, and they said, that they gave an oath, they meant, that, as Kingsguards, they are obliged to do what King Robert ordered them (even if that order was given thru a ravenmail). So they were not going to give Jon to Ned, not because they were protecting Jon, and saw him as their new King, but because they were going to bring Jon to their King - Robert.

So there's a possibility, that those Kingsguards were not on Jon's side.

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On 3/2/2019 at 3:16 PM, Platypus Rex said:

If Summerhall is important, then so is Ser Bonifer.   That old dude knows something, if anyone does.

Yeah I always thought so too.

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47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Megorova, that’s a nice bit of fan fic, sprinkled w/ some mental gymnastics of Olympic proportions. 

It could be that, if it might have been that, he could have done that... then of course!

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On 3/2/2019 at 12:16 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Ser Bonifer

Thanks for forcing me to look this guy up against my will!     It's one of the names I'd never traced through the various books before, always taking each of his appearances in isolation and letting him drop from memory after nothing super eventful happened with him each time.   

So..... he stopped seeking glory after being cut off from Rhaella, like he didn't feel there was any point in idly risking himself for a realm that had just jilted him.  That'd be the surface explanation that really makes perfect sense by itself.   But then the Barristan treatment of him suggests a powder keg surrounds Bonifer & Raella's history, perhaps similar to the secrets that drove Lancel to religion?

And his loyalties have since wandered, which says nothing about whether he remains a Targaryen loyalist because there's been none of those to support.    Is he leaning on religion to keep him from listening to his heart and acting out in some ruinous way??   

And he's fallen within Petyr's sphere of influence.   I find that interesting.   Jaime muses on how he believes Bonifer got appointed.   But Petyr exists in the blind spot of the Lannisters and may have himself finagled to have Bonifer installed at Harenhal.   Why?    A knight who may have secret information joining the camp of a guy who sent for tapestries from the old throneroom that might contain rare lineage information.  And with the rise of the Faith, to have notably faithful troops positioned under Petey may act as  .... as a kind of diplomatic lube?

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10 hours ago, Ida Hearst said:

I don't think it's too early. Considering that the CotF (and by extension probably the Others) live on longer timescales than humans, it does not seem like a stretch that it would take ~40 years for the reaction to become noticeable. Add in some internecine conflict about whether to deploy the Others at all (assuming my factions theory turns out to be anywhere near the truth), and the timeline makes perfect sense.

The woods witch's told the prince would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. So maybe the awakening of the Others started earlier than even Summerhall. Maybe the Dance of Dragons when much kinslaying occurred. Or maybe it was Summerhall. But everything was written before it occurred.

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3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

So..... he stopped seeking glory after being cut off from Rhaella, like he didn't feel there was any point in idly risking himself for a realm that had just jilted him.  That'd be the surface explanation that really makes perfect sense by itself.   But then the Barristan treatment of him suggests a powder keg surrounds Bonifer & Raella's history, perhaps similar to the secrets that drove Lancel to religion?

And his loyalties have since wandered, which says nothing about whether he remains a Targaryen loyalist because there's been none of those to support.    Is he leaning on religion to keep him from listening to his heart and acting out in some ruinous way??  

And he's fallen within Petyr's sphere of influence.   I find that interesting.   Jaime muses on how he believes Bonifer got appointed.   But Petyr exists in the blind spot of the Lannisters and may have himself finagled to have Bonifer installed at Harenhal.   Why?    A knight who may have secret information joining the camp of a guy who sent for tapestries from the old throneroom that might contain rare lineage information.  And with the rise of the Faith, to have notably faithful troops positioned under Petey may act as  .... as a kind of diplomatic lube?

It is possible he stopped seeking glory, not after Rhaella's marriage, but after Summerhall.  Jaime speculates that what happened to him was a "... defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death …"  Jaime is only guessing, of course, but I'm guessing his choice of words was meant by GRRM as a clue.

Bonifer (very tall ex-tournament knight) is likely Dunk's son or grandson, Rhaegar's father, and the grandfather of Rhaegar's surviving children (if any).  So like most family, he was probably around at Summerhall.

He got sent to Harrenhall, because he is honest, dutiful, and not afraid of ghosts.  Probably no need to read any more to it than that.

The Holy 86 will  keep getting smaller and smaller (the Holy 50, Holy Score, Holy Dozen, Holy Six, etc.).  But in the end, Bonifer will still be around to tell us what he knows about Summerhall.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

It is possible he stopped seeking glory, not after Rhaella's marriage, but after Summerhall.  Jaime speculates that what happened to him was a "... defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death …"  Jaime is only guessing, of course, but I'm guessing his choice of words was meant by GRRM as a clue.

Bonifer (very tall ex-tournament knight) is likely Dunk's son or grandson, Rhaegar's father, and the grandfather of Rhaegar's surviving children (if any).  So like most family, he was probably around at Summerhall.

How is it likely? Are all tall knights Dunk’s descendants?

I suppose we can say it’s possible, but that’s a far cry from likely. 

Also, you propose Bonifer was shagging the queen - to the point of being the father of the crown prince, and that explains his presence at Summerhall because he was “family”? Or did I misunderstand? 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Bonifer is for playing out the dilemma of his faith vs his love. He should fall in line behind Dany for his love for her mother, only he now loves the Seven and Dany will be the greatest enemy of the Faith. On what side will his loyalty fall?

His Holy Hundred I suggest are for doing battle with the Fiery Hand.

There's no reason he'd have been at Summerhall and every reason he wouldn't have been.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How is it likely? Are all tall knights Dunk’s descendants?

No.  Just Bonifer and his descendant's through Rhaegar. 

Bonifer is a skilled tournament knight.  Bonifer is a landed knight.  Bonifer is connected with the court of Aegon V.  Bonifer left a clue in FEAST.

It's a better fit than the theory that Dunk was cuckolding the Lord of Tarth and left his shield behind.

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I suppose we can say it’s possible, but that’s a far cry from likely. 

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, you propose Bonifer was shagging the queen - to the point of being the father of the crown prince, and that explains his presence at Summerhall because he was “family”? Or did I misunderstand? 

Bonifer is Dunk's family. 

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

No.  Just Bonifer and his descendant's through Rhaegar.

 

Bonifer is Dunk's family. 

 

 Compelling arguments, w/ lots of textual support, I’m sold. /s

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 Compelling arguments, w/ lots of textual support, I’m sold. /s

Stick with Brienne, then.

By the way, I don't owe you any explanations.  And I don't owe you my time.  So please don't talk to me like I do.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Just now, Platypus Rex said:

Stick with Brienne, then.

I will, since that one’s been confirmed and all. 

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2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

She wasn't confirmed.

Yes, it’s been confirmed. 

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