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5 wackiest Crackpot "theories"

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16 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Make it so, Riker!    That's good stuff.   There's pre existing acorn birthing myths down in the isles; Root it in reality why don't  you.   Marv Albert says Yes.

 

I like that! I was thinking of them hanging there like strange fruit, reverse lynchings if you will, but that mythic imagery certainly fits with the yggradsil stuff!

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On 3/6/2019 at 4:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Most of those aren't secret, though, or they aren't secret identities but just some twisted slave name. Everyone knows Reek is Theon, as one example. Ok, also, most everyone knows who Tyrion is, so I guess two examples. The "hooded man" is a fandom name for an unknown. And the characters that have taken on different names have done so for current plot and character development reasons. They will resume their true identity again (if it hasn't already been revealed), and that identity will be stronger. But if you like them, ok.

And to clarify, I am sure we will have some secrets revealed, no doubt, just not nearly as many as theories suggest.

Depending on how the story was told, however, all of these would be secret. Frinstance, if the story began with DoD and we didn't have Theon's POV, then this person who calls himself Reek would be Reek to the reader, and it would take a bit of guesswork to connect him to a pre-story person named Theon. And if the Shy Maid POV was fAegon's or Yandry, then there would be this strange dwarf on their boat called Hugor Hill and eventually we may hear the tale about a dwarf who killed a king and then went missing half a world away.

So, in this sense, nobody's identity is truly secret, since everybody should know who they are, or somebody else knows in the case of Jon. The secret only arises from the perspective that the authors chooses to reveal the story.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Depending on how the story was told,

There’s your answer right there... “depending how the story was told”. How the story could have been told is 100% inconsequential. :D

 

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Depending on how the story was told, however, all of these would be secret. Frinstance, if the story began with DoD and we didn't have Theon's POV, then this person who calls himself Reek would be Reek to the reader, and it would take a bit of guesswork to connect him to a pre-story person named Theon. And if the Shy Maid POV was fAegon's or Yandry, then there would be this strange dwarf on their boat called Hugor Hill and eventually we may hear the tale about a dwarf who killed a king and then went missing half a world away.

So, in this sense, nobody's identity is truly secret, since everybody should know who they are, or somebody else knows in the case of Jon. The secret only arises from the perspective that the authors chooses to reveal the story.

I sorta kinda see what you are trying to get at, but the way you explain it requires rewriting the entire series, or reading a totally different series that was purposely planned, plotted, and written to have multiple exposures.

"Reek" questions himself and repeatedly says things like:

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

"A rat?" Ramsay's pale eyes glittered in the torchlight. "All the rats in the Dreadfort belong to my lord father. How dare you make a meal of one without my leave."

Reek did not know what to say, so he said nothing. One wrong word could cost him another toe, even a finger. Thus far he had lost two fingers off his left hand and the pinky off his right, but only the little toe off his right foot against three from his left. Sometimes Ramsay would make japes about balancing him out. My lord was only japing, he tried to tell himself. He does not want to hurt me, he told me so, he only does it when I give him cause. His lord was merciful and kind. He might have flayed his face off for some of the things Reek had said, before he'd learned his true name and proper place.

Reading that line, and the ones from Roose that talk about bathing him and "Reek" has been broken, and he should dress in finer clothes, etc should make the reader question "Reek" and his identity... if the books started there. But the way the books are written now, the reader should be able to figure out who "Reek" is and that it is not a secret identity, just a fucked up lie of a slave name given to a broken man whose name is Theon. 

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again."

The elder Bolton sighed. "Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak's work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots. Human skin is not as tough as cowhide and will not wear as well. By the king's decree you are now a Bolton. Try and act like one. Tales are told of you, Ramsay. I hear them everywhere. People fear you."

And even with Jeyne Poole, we readers and in-world characters have been told all along the way that she is "Arya", but no one believes that. Some don't know the girl is named Jeyne, but some do. The northern lords know that is not Arya Stark. They are going along with the ruse to bide their time for some future plot... to be revealed ;).

A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

That is not Lord Eddard's daughter.

Arya had her father's eyes, the grey eyes of the Starks. A girl her age might let her hair grow long, add inches to her height, see her chest fill out, but she could not change the color of her eyes. That's Sansa's little friend, the steward's girl. Jeyne, that was her name. Jeyne Poole.

"Lord Ramsay." The girl dipped down before him. That was wrong as well. The real Arya Stark would have spat into his face. "I pray that I will make you a good wife and give you strong sons to follow after you."

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

He is not my bastard, he wanted to say, but another voice inside him said, He is, he is. Reek belongs to Ramsay, and Ramsay belongs to Reek. You must not forget your name.

"Dressing her in grey and white serves no good if the girl is left to sob. The Freys may not care, but the northmen … they fear the Dreadfort, but they love the Starks."

Honestly, the way characters on the Shy Maid and before that when Tyrion meets up with Griff and Co. The reaction to Tyrion is very meh, because it seems they kinda already knew. A similar experience to this scene when Jon Con tries to shock with a big reveal of who Aegon truly is. Damn company stole JonCon's Thundaaaa!

A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

That time was done, though. "No man could have asked for a worthier son," Griff said, "but the lad is not of my blood, and his name is not Griff. My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstborn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Elia of Dorne … soon, with your help, to be Aegon, the Sixth of His Name, King of Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms."

Silence greeted his announcement. Someone cleared his throat. One of the Coles refilled his wine cup from the flagon. Gorys Edoryen played with one of his corkscrew ringlets and murmured something in a tongue Griff did not know. Laswell Peake coughed, Mandrake and Lothston exchanged a glance. They know, Griff realized then. They have known all along. He turned to look at Harry Strickland. "When did you tell them?"

The captain-general wriggled his blistered toes in his footbath. "When we reached the river. The company was restless, with good reason. We walked away from an easy campaign in the Disputed Lands, and for what? So we could swelter in this god-awful heat watching our coins melt away and our blades go to rust whilst I turn away rich contracts?"

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On 3/8/2019 at 6:45 PM, kissdbyfire said:

There’s your answer right there... “depending how the story was told”. How the story could have been told is 100% inconsequential. :D

 

The story is the same no matter whose perspective is used, so the only thing that makes a secret identity secret is the understanding of the particular POV you happen to be observing it through. All of the "secret" identities I listed above are only secret to the people who do not know their true identity. If the story happened to be told through these character's POV, they would be secret to the reader as well, and there would undoubtedly be people on this board saying "no, Alayne cannot be Sansa because Sansa has auburn hair and disappeared after the Purple Wedding." Same story, but told through a different POV produces a secret identity.

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On 3/8/2019 at 10:16 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I sorta kinda see what you are trying to get at, but the way you explain it requires rewriting the entire series, or reading a totally different series that was purposely planned, plotted, and written to have multiple exposures.

"Reek" questions himself and repeatedly says things like:

A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

"A rat?" Ramsay's pale eyes glittered in the torchlight. "All the rats in the Dreadfort belong to my lord father. How dare you make a meal of one without my leave."

Reek did not know what to say, so he said nothing. One wrong word could cost him another toe, even a finger. Thus far he had lost two fingers off his left hand and the pinky off his right, but only the little toe off his right foot against three from his left. Sometimes Ramsay would make japes about balancing him out. My lord was only japing, he tried to tell himself. He does not want to hurt me, he told me so, he only does it when I give him cause. His lord was merciful and kind. He might have flayed his face off for some of the things Reek had said, before he'd learned his true name and proper place.

Reading that line, and the ones from Roose that talk about bathing him and "Reek" has been broken, and he should dress in finer clothes, etc should make the reader question "Reek" and his identity... if the books started there. But the way the books are written now, the reader should be able to figure out who "Reek" is and that it is not a secret identity, just a fucked up lie of a slave name given to a broken man whose name is Theon. 

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

"Stark's little wolflings are dead," said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, "and they'll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again."

The elder Bolton sighed. "Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak's work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … inferior boots. Human skin is not as tough as cowhide and will not wear as well. By the king's decree you are now a Bolton. Try and act like one. Tales are told of you, Ramsay. I hear them everywhere. People fear you."

And even with Jeyne Poole, we readers and in-world characters have been told all along the way that she is "Arya", but no one believes that. Some don't know the girl is named Jeyne, but some do. The northern lords know that is not Arya Stark. They are going along with the ruse to bide their time for some future plot... to be revealed ;).

A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

That is not Lord Eddard's daughter.

Arya had her father's eyes, the grey eyes of the Starks. A girl her age might let her hair grow long, add inches to her height, see her chest fill out, but she could not change the color of her eyes. That's Sansa's little friend, the steward's girl. Jeyne, that was her name. Jeyne Poole.

"Lord Ramsay." The girl dipped down before him. That was wrong as well. The real Arya Stark would have spat into his face. "I pray that I will make you a good wife and give you strong sons to follow after you."

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

He is not my bastard, he wanted to say, but another voice inside him said, He is, he is. Reek belongs to Ramsay, and Ramsay belongs to Reek. You must not forget your name.

"Dressing her in grey and white serves no good if the girl is left to sob. The Freys may not care, but the northmen … they fear the Dreadfort, but they love the Starks."

Honestly, the way characters on the Shy Maid and before that when Tyrion meets up with Griff and Co. The reaction to Tyrion is very meh, because it seems they kinda already knew. A similar experience to this scene when Jon Con tries to shock with a big reveal of who Aegon truly is. Damn company stole JonCon's Thundaaaa!

A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

That time was done, though. "No man could have asked for a worthier son," Griff said, "but the lad is not of my blood, and his name is not Griff. My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstborn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Elia of Dorne … soon, with your help, to be Aegon, the Sixth of His Name, King of Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms."

Silence greeted his announcement. Someone cleared his throat. One of the Coles refilled his wine cup from the flagon. Gorys Edoryen played with one of his corkscrew ringlets and murmured something in a tongue Griff did not know. Laswell Peake coughed, Mandrake and Lothston exchanged a glance. They know, Griff realized then. They have known all along. He turned to look at Harry Strickland. "When did you tell them?"

The captain-general wriggled his blistered toes in his footbath. "When we reached the river. The company was restless, with good reason. We walked away from an easy campaign in the Disputed Lands, and for what? So we could swelter in this god-awful heat watching our coins melt away and our blades go to rust whilst I turn away rich contracts?"

No, the story is exactly the same, only the perspectives have changed. So you wouldn't have Reek's inner thoughts to guide you, nor these conversations with Ramsay. You might, however, have a front row seat with Lady Dustin discussing the northern lords' plans for the defeat of the Boltons, during which they might reveal the identity of the person sent in to commit a key murder to stir up trouble with the Freys. You won't have any POVs on the Shy Maid either, just, say, the Shavepate's thoughts on the sudden arrival of a dwarf in Merreen, and maybe some whispered tale of a dwarf who is wanted for kingslaying and kinslaying on the other side of the world.

Let's take it a step further and imagine that the story we are reading now is the backstory of some future conflict, just as Robert's Rebellion is for the current tale. Now you might have a POV talking to an older woman named Alayne Stone, with no reason at all to connect her to Sansa Stark who disappeared out of the King's Landing 20 years ago. There might also be a female Faceless Man stalking around Westeros, but how could that possibly be little Arya Stark who also disappeared 20 years ago? What about a crazy Skagosan with a dire wolf who claims to be the long-dead Rickon Stark? Is he real, or is he fRickon?

So there may be countless reasons to doubt that any character in the current story or the backstory is actually someone else, but to simply say it cannot be true because there would be too many secret identities is not good enough. We've seen dozens of secret identities emerge right before our eyes, so there is no reason to think there can't be just as many off-page.

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Listen, I love Bolt-On. It's so weird and maybe even stupid, but something IS up with Roose's eyes. That's probably going to have some significance eventually. 

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12 minutes ago, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Listen, I love Bolt-On. It's so weird and maybe even stupid, but something IS up with Roose's eyes. That's probably going to have some significance eventually. 

Some significance is one thing, Bolt-on quite another! :P

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24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Some significance is one thing, Bolt-on quite another! :P

Yeah, pretty much. 

Bolt-on will never, ever be true, but for some odd reason I love it dearly. I mean...Roose Bolton as an evil immortal parasite? Come on, that's amazing. 

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3 minutes ago, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

Yeah, pretty much. 

Bolt-on will never, ever be true, but for some odd reason I love it dearly. I mean...Roose Bolton as an evil immortal parasite? Come on, that's amazing. 

:lol:

Agree wholeheartedly. If anyone could pull that off, it would be him w/o a doubt!

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On 3/6/2019 at 11:49 AM, John Suburbs said:

I don't see why people are so put off at the thought of secret identities. Just look at all the ones we know about:

  • Sansa: Alayne
  • Arya: Arry, Weasel, Nan, Cat of the Canals, Blind Beth, the Ugly Girl, No One
  • No One: Jaqen H'gar, the Alchemist, Pate
  • Bran: some crippled kid in a cave, certainly not Brandon Stark, though, he's dead
  • Rickon: also definitely not the dead Rickon Stark
  • Theon: Reek
  • Ramsay: Reek
  • Reek: Ramsay
  • Arstan Whitebeard: Barristan Selmy
  • The Hooded Man: choose you're real identity
  • Tyrion: Hugor Hill
  • Varys: Rugen, some fancy lady, and possible even Varys is not his true identity
  • The Hound: brother on the Quiet Isle
  • Sarella: Alleras
  • Gregor Clegane: Robert Strong
  • ??: Jon Snow

Hey all, so glad to be back, don't want to delve to much into personal stuff but things to a rocky turn, these books helped me a ton so i'm happy to be back in the fandom! I also love how things haven't seemed to change much around here...kinda like coming home and everything is pretty much right where you left it.

Back on topic, @John Suburbs are you referring to Jon's last ADwD chapter here? The one with the strange pacing and unusual internal thoughts before he was stabbed?

As for wacky theories I don't have too much input just a couple points:

A.) The Daynes- should be House Red Herring, They are like a really tough pinata we've been whacking for some time, there is definitely going to be a payout at the end but how much and to what extent I have no idea, so I pretty much give a blanket pass for ALL crazy Dayne theories because something is going down with them. (Applies to a much lesser extent to the Hightowers)

B.) Secret Identities/Parentage's - I like these, to me they are some of the most fun in ASoIaF. I think people somewhat misunderstand the point of most of these though. I'm not going to find the quote but I think Brown Ben Plumm points out that everyone after Aegon IV could conceivably have a drop of dragons-blood. Nobody is going to claim the throne off of that, but I think it adds cool element of world crafting, that Mance might be so badass because he's potentially Bloodraven's son. Or (inserting personal crackpot) Dareon and Marillion could be Tom O' Sevens sons. 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 3:49 PM, John Suburbs said:

I don't see why people are so put off at the thought of secret identities. Just look at all the ones we know about:

  • Sansa: Alayne
  • Arya: Arry, Weasel, Nan, Cat of the Canals, Blind Beth, the Ugly Girl, No One
  • No One: Jaqen H'gar, the Alchemist, Pate
  • Bran: some crippled kid in a cave, certainly not Brandon Stark, though, he's dead
  • Rickon: also definitely not the dead Rickon Stark
  • Theon: Reek
  • Ramsay: Reek
  • Reek: Ramsay
  • Arstan Whitebeard: Barristan Selmy
  • The Hooded Man: choose you're real identity
  • Tyrion: Hugor Hill
  • Varys: Rugen, some fancy lady, and possible even Varys is not his true identity
  • The Hound: brother on the Quiet Isle
  • Sarella: Alleras
  • Gregor Clegane: Robert Strong
  • ??: Jon Snow

There's also:

  • Mance Rayder:  Rattleshirt, Abel
  • Rattleshirt:  Mance
  • Rorge:  The Hound
  • Lem Lemoncloak:  The Hound
  • Jeyne Poole:  Arya Stark
  • Sansa Stark:  Alayne Stone.
  • Quentyn Martell:  Frog of the Windblown
  • Garlan Tyrell:  Renly Baratheon
  • Rosamund Lannister:  Myrcella Baratheon
  • Tyene Sand:  Unnamed Septa
  • Condemned White Harbor Prisoner:  Davos Seaworth

 

  • On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

    Most of those aren't secret, though, 

    Well, the REALLY secret ones are the ones we don't know about yet, surely.

  • On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

    And to clarify, I am sure we will have some secrets revealed, no doubt, just not nearly as many as theories suggest.

    You mean, ALL the theories are not true?   Just some of them?  I guess so.  

Edited by Platypus Rex

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

There's also:

  • Mance Rayder:  Rattleshirt, Abel
  • Rattleshirt:  Mance
  • Rorge:  The Hound

Not a is a secret identity-hardly on page and then rather quickly revealed, and certainly not secret to readers. 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:
  • Lem Lemoncloak:  The Hound

Say what? This is the first time I’ve ever heard this idea that it could even be a theory. 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:
  • Jeyne Poole:  Arya Stark
  • Sansa Stark:  Alayne Stone.
  • Quentyn Martell:  Frog of the Windblown

None of these are secrets and never set up as such. 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:
  • Garlan Tyrell:  Renly Baratheon

No. 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:
  • Rosamund Lannister:  Myrcella Baratheon

Bored fan theory only. 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:
  • Tyene Sand:  Unnamed Septa
  • Condemned White Harbor Prisoner:  Davos Seaworth

I hate saying this sometimes, but this is why we need TWOW. To refocus the story on what it is. 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

 

  • Well, the REALLY secret ones are the ones we don't know about yet, surely.

 

Wow, so the list endless? So a large majority of what we have read so far is like a rug about to be pulled from under us... or a banana peel? 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:
  • You mean, ALL the theories are not true?   Just some of them?  I guess so.  

I have said my peace on this a few times now. Trying reading what I said without assuming I am hiding my words in secret ;)

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Raventree Hall and Torrhen's Squire are very similar castles, so I suspect that TS was build by Blackwoods and so it was their original home until they were exiled by rising Starks.

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4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:
Quote
  • Lem Lemoncloak:  The Hound

Say what? This is the first time I’ve ever heard this idea that it could even be a theory. 

Quote

I think he is referring to the fact that the helmet is now in Lem's possession. During the raid on the Saltpans it was most likely Rorge who wore the helmet, as he is wearing it during the encounter with Brienne. It's just after he is killed by her, then Lem takes the Hound's helmet.

But of course this is no secret identity.

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3 hours ago, Morte said:

I think he is referring to the fact that the helmet is now in Lem's possession. During the raid on the Saltpans it was most likely Rorge who wore the helmet, as he is wearing it during the encounter with Brienne. It's just after he is killed by her, then Lem takes the Hound's helmet.

But of course this is no secret identity.

I'm referring to the fact that Brienne meets "The Hound", and even thinks it is "The Hound", and it turns out to be Lem Lemoncloak.

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8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 Bored fan theory only. 

Rosamund impersonating Myrcella not theory.  Specifically, Rosamund has already impersonated Myrcella, in the context of the Queenmaker plot.  Arys Oakheart said that, in the dim light of her supposed sickroom, the disguise could almost have fooled even him.  And, more generally, Rosamund is a decoy.  Impersonating Myrcella is her job description.

This was never a secret from the reader.  But that was never a criterion of the list.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No. 

So, you think it really WAS Renly, or his ghost, at the Battle of the Blackwater.  Interesting.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Wow, so the list endless? So a large majority of what we have read so far is like a rug about to be pulled from under us... or a banana peel? 

The list so far is only of confirmed impersonations or identity confusions.  I could also list a huge number of unconfirmed theories, a small but limited number of which will no doubt turn out to be correct.

The point is, we see so many people being fooled.  Why should the reader assume the will never be fooled?  And, of course, one could make a shorter list where the reader was fooled as well.  

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'm referring to the fact that Brienne meets "The Hound", and even thinks it is "The Hound", and it turns out to be Lem Lemoncloak.

 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Rosamund impersonating Myrcella not theory.  Specifically, Rosamund has already impersonated Myrcella, in the context of the Queenmaker plot.  Arys Oakheart said that, in the dim light of her supposed sickroom, the disguise could almost have fooled even him.  And, more generally, Rosamund is a decoy.  Impersonating Myrcella is her job description.

This was never a secret from the reader.  But that was never a criterion of the list.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

So, you think it really WAS Renly, or his ghost, at the Battle of the Blackwater.  Interesting.

 

49 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The list so far is only of confirmed impersonations or identity confusions.  I could also list a huge number of unconfirmed theories, a small but limited number of which will no doubt turn out to be correct.

The point is, we see so many people being fooled.  Why should the reader assume the will never be fooled?  And, of course, one could make a shorter list where the reader was fooled as well.  

This is my last post on this because I find it extremely odd that in a poll thread (opinion) you like to resort to arguments with the voters.

You seem to be conflating fan theories and in-universe set ups and reveals. And twisting my words to fit your reality does not make them true, nor does it make you witty. Sorry, plain as that. I've been on this forum for a while now and this tired rhetoric is boring.

Additionally, there is no need to quote me four or five times separately from the same origin post. All you have to do is break up the post you are responding to by placing the cursor where needed and hitting space two times quickly. Most threads have a page limit of 20 (?) and using multiple posts to answer me once just eats up thread space.

Edited by The Fattest Leech
clarified a word

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