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Daemon of the Blacks

So what was Criston Cole's deal?

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In the Dance of Dragon's Criston Cole seems to have some of the most passionate but also mysterious and dubious reasons to pick his side. He fights for neither family nor direct survival but is the one most aggressively tied to his side considering he decided to answer opposition by personally murdering the old man who disagreed with him. Cole's main motivation seems to be hate for Rhaenyra. 

According to Fire and Blood there are three possible reasons for his hatred. 

1: Rhaenyra proposed to Cole and he rejected her out of disgust

2: Cole was the one who proposed to Rhaenyra and couldn't handle the rejection

3: Cole was morally repulsed by Rhaenyra and her family.

Given Cole's actions I think him being the rejected party makes the most sense because its he who despises Rhaenyra rather than the other way around. I don't believe she even mentions him. If Rhaenyra got over it but Cole did not it makes sense for him to have suffered the rejection. Cole acting out of spite like going out of his way to kill her husband's lover or stealing her crown makes sense if he felt abandoned and humiliated by her, but it make a whole lot less sense if Rhaenyra was the one who proposed. After all, Rhaenyra marrying Leanor was enough to end any hypothetical awkward proposal. If Cole was that bothered by him he should be happy she's out of his hair rather then murder the boyfriend of her husband. But killing said boyfriend to punish the man who ''stole'' Rhaenyra from him is fairly understandable, if pretty vile. 

Cole being morally repulsed doesn't seem a very strong reason either because as a Kingsguard that's simply none of his business. So his queen to be is a slut and her husband is gay. So what? Kingsguard served kings a whole lot worse before Rhaenyra and they would serve even worse ones after her. With Kingsguards serving the iron dictator Maegor, the loony Aerys or the unworthy Aegon is would be petty if Cole had a problem with a mere slut. If the queen's behavior was a deal breaker it simply shows Cole was never fit for the job. 

One a more sympathetic note Cole did seem to have some real kinship with the Hightower branch. He's mentioned as having personally trained Aemond and the overly arrogant prince actually respects Cole to some extend. Aegon II too seemed to think very highly of Cole. 

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3 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Given Cole's actions I think him being the rejected party makes the most sense because its he who despises Rhaenyra rather than the other way around. I don't believe she even mentions him. If Rhaenyra got over it but Cole did not it makes sense for him to have suffered the rejection. Cole acting out of spite like going out of his way to kill her husband's lover or stealing her crown makes sense if he felt abandoned and humiliated by her, but it make a whole lot less sense if Rhaenyra was the one who proposed. After all, Rhaenyra marrying Leanor was enough to end any hypothetical awkward proposal. If Cole was that bothered by him he should be happy she's out of his hair rather then murder the boyfriend of her husband. But killing said boyfriend to punish the man who ''stole'' Rhaenyra from him is fairly understandable, if pretty vile. 

That is spot on. What really happened and what Cole really is about is given away by his actions during the wedding tourney. If he had been disgusted by Rhaenyra he would have been happy to be rid of her now, and he would have certainly have had no reason whatsoever to either beat up Harwin Strong and, especially, Joffrey Lonmouth.

Mushroom's tale about Cole being horrified about Rhaenyra's supposed earlier advances - after she had had her alleged kissing lessons with Daemon - also make little sense in light of the fact that Cole continued to serve as Rhaenyra's sworn shield until her wedding. If Cole had felt abhorred by her approaches and had had legitimate concerns about the moral conduct of the Princess of Dragonstone he could have intervened with the king long before the wedding, causing him to name another sworn shield for her - or even ensure she is properly chastised for her wantonly behavior.

We can be reasonably certain that if Mushroom's tale about Daemon/Rhaenyra and Cole were true, it would have been essentially impossible to hide that from the court and the public, and that would have meant this would have been an enormous scandal.

I've long described Criston Cole as the Kingsguard version of Littlefinger. They have similar humble roots (Cole is the son of the steward of Blackhaven), they have certain talents at which they excel, they have a winning manner and personality, and they have high ambitions revolving around the highborn women in their lives, and they have a creepy thing for little girls - Littlefinger for Sansa, Cole for the young Rhaenyra he was assigned to.

Just as Littlefinger could never let go of Catelyn and what she meant to him, Cole could never get over Rhaenyra. And this really shapes all his actions later. Unfortunately we don't know the extent of his role in all that happened, but chances are not that bad that Cole was a major driving force behind the coup. It is certainly possible that he was the one pushing Alicent (and later Otto, too) in the direction he wanted them to go, rather than Cole being the one who was used by the Hightowers.

And his ideas and actions cast a very bad light on him, considering he is the one who shed the first blood, he is the one who pushed for the first proper executions, he is the one who twisted a Kingsguard into an assassin, he is the one who lashed out at rather minor seats around KL to punish Rhaenyra's followers - and the goal of the Rook's Rest plan clearly was, in my opinion, to trap Rhaenyra herself. Cole most likely hoped she would come on Syrax, and then they could kill her.

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7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I actually buy Mushroom's theory more.

Then why did Cole attack Joffrey Lonmouth so ferociously? Why did he even bother to beat up Harwin Strong? If he was not in love with Rhaenyra, he would have had no reason to do this.

And the Mushroom version of Daemon teaching Rhaenyra makes pretty much no sense. If the girl had had the hots for Cole she would have gotten to him all by himself. She didn't need her uncle for that. And Daemon is not as subtle or patient enough to corrupt Rhaenyra this was - he wanted to marry her to have her claim. And that goal works much better by actually seducing her and then sleeping with her - as Eustace claims he did.

Even the fact that Arryk Cargyll found them abed together fits better with his later mission to murder either Rhaenyra or her sons.

Mushroom's story is the more entertaining one, but also the one who would have essentially destroyed all the people involved had this actually transpired the way it is claimed. It is also reaches the same ending as Eustace's - Daemon asking his brother for Rhaenyra's hand. But he takes a rather crooked road to get there.

One can see Viserys I forgiving the daughter who was seduced by her uncle who was very skilled at getting young maidens into his bed, but the idea that the man would have suffered it if his slut-daughter had had made out with her uncle to actually seduce a knight of the Kingsguard makes little sense. Even more so considering that Viserys I would have actually allowed Cole to remain Rhaenyra's sworn shield even after that - which basically makes no sense because Mushroom claims the entire story came out then and there, when they confessed it all.

The conclusion one has to take is that it is actually nonsense that Rhaenyra cared all that much about Criston Cole. He was just one of her favorites, not the favorite, whereas she clearly played a much bigger role in his mind.

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I think both theories are arguable. 

Rhaenyra was always in love with Criston. First in a children adoration way, but when she grow up, the desire became more physical. Probably Cole believed their relationship was a chevalier-lady perfect and chaste amour. When Rhaenyra tried to seduce him, he was reviled. 

When Rhaenyra married Laenor and started having Strong babies, Cole was furious and indignated. But he could do nothing with it. King Viserys was blind to the truth, and he will always believe his loved daughter before his knight. After all, if Rhaenyra was accused, she could always say Cole was only a spurned suitor. Not the first time a man loses his head for her. And not the first time a white knight is send to the Wall ofr unapropiate conduct. Remember Lucamore the Lustful?

So Cole took his "rightful" anger to the only place where he can free it: the jousting field. Perhaps he believed the King of the Kisses was the father of the Strong boys. Or maybe believed the threesome of Rhaenyra/Laenor/Joffrey was repulsive and wanted to end it. Harwyn Strong was another evident target.

 

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1 hour ago, the Last Teague said:

I think both theories are arguable. 

Rhaenyra was always in love with Criston. First in a children adoration way, but when she grow up, the desire became more physical. Probably Cole believed their relationship was a chevalier-lady perfect and chaste amour. When Rhaenyra tried to seduce him, he was reviled. 

When Rhaenyra married Laenor and started having Strong babies, Cole was furious and indignated. But he could do nothing with it. King Viserys was blind to the truth, and he will always believe his loved daughter before his knight. After all, if Rhaenyra was accused, she could always say Cole was only a spurned suitor. Not the first time a man loses his head for her. And not the first time a white knight is send to the Wall ofr unapropiate conduct. Remember Lucamore the Lustful?

So Cole took his "rightful" anger to the only place where he can free it: the jousting field. Perhaps he believed the King of the Kisses was the father of the Strong boys. Or maybe believed the threesome of Rhaenyra/Laenor/Joffrey was repulsive and wanted to end it. Harwyn Strong was another evident target.

 

Except he attacked Lonmouth and Strong at the Tourney for Rhaenyra's wedding. Well before she was even pregnant with Jace. So she hadn't had any 'Strong' babies by that point. So once again, him being disgusted by Rhaenyra and then taking his anger out on her husbands lover and the guy she gave a favour to doesn't really make much sense. As Lord Varys said, those events only really make sense if she was the one who rejected him.

I do agree that she probably did 'love' him. She might have even been the one to make the first move, if you believe that Cole wished for them to run away together. But later events and actions from Cole only really make sense if Cole was the one who felt spurned.

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Posted (edited)

The whole Daemon teaching her sex stuff is utterly ridiculous. That is a ripoff/nod to Choderlos de Laclos' Les Liaisons dangereuses. It is sort of fun when John Malkovich and Uma Thurman do it, but it is basically just a ridiculous thing - it only makes sense in literature, even in the book/movie both the girl and the guy the schemers want to 'hurt' by spoiling his 'innocent bride' are caricatures, not real people.

[For the record: In the book/various movies two bored aristocrats start a scheme to get back at one of the woman's previous lovers by turning his young bride (who has been raised in a monastery) into a slut so the guy is 'shocked' in his wedding night when the bride actually knows what to do to give him pleasure. It is as silly as it sounds here, both in book/movies and in Martinworld, too (which doesn't mean I don't like it ;-)).]

1 hour ago, the Last Teague said:

I think both theories are arguable. 

Rhaenyra was always in love with Criston. First in a children adoration way, but when she grow up, the desire became more physical. Probably Cole believed their relationship was a chevalier-lady perfect and chaste amour. When Rhaenyra tried to seduce him, he was reviled.

If that were true one would have to answer the question as to why Cole did not resign as Rhaenyra's sworn shield as he later did - or why Viserys I didn't reassign him to some other duty.

The Daemon/Rhaenyra thing took place in 111 AC, three years before Rhaenyra's marriage in 114 AC, and two years before her marriage was arranged (in 113 AC, when she turned sixteen).

Mushroom claims the following took place in 111 AC, during the six months of Daemon's return to court:

Quote

The tale as told by Mushroom is far more depraved, as is oft the case with his Testimony. According to the dwarf, it was Ser Criston Cole that the princess yearned for, not Prince Daemon, but Ser Criston was a true knight, noble and chaste and mindful of his vows, and though he was in her company day and night, he had never so much as kissed her, nor made any declaration of his love. “When he looks at you, he sees the little girl you were, not the woman you’ve become,” Daemon told his niece, “but I can teach you how to make him see you as a woman.”
He began by giving her kissing lessons, if Mushroom can be believed. From there the prince went on to show his niece how best to touch a man to bring him pleasure, an exercise that sometimes involved Mushroom himself and his alleged enormous member. Daemon taught the girl to disrobe enticingly, suckled at her teats to make them larger and more sensitive, and flew with her on dragonback to lonely rocks in Blackwater Bay, where they could disport naked all day unobserved, and the princess could practice the art of pleasuring a man with her mouth. At night he would smuggle her from her rooms dressed as a page boy and take her secretly to brothels on the Street of Silk, where the princess could observe men and women in the act of love and learn more of these “womanly arts” from the harlots of King’s Landing.
Just how long these lessons continued Mushroom does not say, but unlike Septon Eustace, he insists that Princess Rhaenyra remained a maiden, for she wished to preserve her innocence as a gift for her beloved. But when at last she approached her white knight, using all she had learned, Ser Criston was horrified and spurned her. The whole tale soon came out, in no small part thanks to Mushroom himself. King Viserys at first refused to believe a word of it, until Prince Daemon confirmed the tale was true. “Give the girl to me to wife,” he purportedly told his brother. “Who else would take her now?” Instead King Viserys sent him into exile, never to return to the Seven Kingdoms on pain of death. (Lord Strong, the King’s Hand, argued that the prince should be put to death immediately as a traitor, but Septon Eustace reminded His Grace that no man is as accursed as the kinslayer.)

The bold makes it clear that as per Mushroom the king actually learned what had transpired not only between Rhaenyra and Daemon, but also between Cole and Rhaenyra, and therefore it makes no sense that Cole should have continued as Rhaenyra's sworn shield for three more years.

Even more so, Mushroom's tale as to what happened later when Rhaenyra's marriage was arranged and she finally had her falling-out with Cole is essentially the same story that we got for 111 AC:

Quote

Mushroom tells a very different tale. In his version, it was Princess Rhaenyra who went to Ser Criston, not him to her. She found him alone in White Sword Tower, barred the door, and slipped off her cloak to reveal her nakedness underneath. “I saved my maidenhead for you,” she told him. “Take it now, as proof of my love. It will mean little and less to my betrothed, and perhaps when he learns that I am not chaste he will refuse me.”
Yet for all her beauty, her entreaties fell on deaf ears, for Ser Criston was a man of honor and true to his vows. Even when Rhaenyra used the arts she had learned from her uncle Daemon, Cole would not be swayed. Scorned and furious, the princess donned her cloak again and swept out into the night…where she chanced to encounter Ser Harwin Strong, returning from a night of revelry in the stews of the city. Breakbones had long desired the princess, and lacked Ser Criston’s scruples. It was he who took Rhaenyra’s innocence, shedding her maiden’s blood upon the sword of his manhood…according to Mushroom, who claims to have found them in bed at break of day.

Are we to believe that Rhaenyra actually tried twice to give Cole handjobs or blowjobs or whatever else we think those things she learned thanks to Daemon? Shouldn't she have realized the first time that the guy did not want her? Shouldn't Cole have realized back in 111 AC that Rhaenyra was a slut not worthy of his platonic love (if he loved her at all, which doesn't seem to be the case in Mushroom's version)?

How thick must Mushroom's Rhaenyra be to not understand this?

I don't think this makes sense. I'd say Mushroom, being a rather cheap entertainer and lazy story-teller just used the same plot device twice (slutty princess, chaste knight).

Take Eustace's account on the other hand, first the 111 AC and then the 113-14 AC account:

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Eustace, the less salacious of the two, writes that Prince Daemon seduced his niece the princess and claimed her maidenhood. When the lovers were discovered abed together by Ser Arryk Cargyll of the Kingsguard and brought before the king, Rhaenyra insisted she was in love with her uncle and pleaded with her father for leave to marry him. King Viserys would not hear of it, however, and reminded his daughter that Prince Daemon already had a wife. In his wroth, he confined his daughter to her chambers, told his brother to depart, and commanded both of them never to speak of what had happened.

This is the more realistic and the more believable version, especially since apparently nobody in the contemporary sources actually told or made references to the Mushroom version - which, by and far, should have completely destroyed Rhaenyra's reputation. Once Cole was Rhaenyra's deadly enemy he would have done everything in his power to spread the Mushroom version if that had been the truth, because that could have really killed Rhaenyra the Heir Apparent. Even if not, it should have been more than enough blacken her reputation so much that nobody would have fought for 'the slut' during the Dance.

The Eustace version makes it clear that what transpired behind closed doors - Rhaenyra losing her maidenhead - actually did remain a secret for the public at large. This fits with the other accounts given by Runciter and anonymous others who helped the king to hush things up (Runciter, who only records that Daemon and Viserys I quarreled again - which is the truth but not the whole truth) or who simply didn't know what transpired and speculated (anonymous others who said Alicent convinced Viserys I to send Daemon away again - which she certainly may have tried to do but succeeded at only after the Rhaenyra affair).

It also gives us the explanation as to why Arryk Cargyll stayed with the Greens during the Dance.

Let's now take a look at Eustace's account of 113-14 AC:

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And here again our sources differ. That night, Septon Eustace reports, Ser Criston Cole slipped into the princess’s bedchamber to confess his love for her. He told Rhaenyra that he had a ship waiting on the bay, and begged her to flee with him across the narrow sea. They would be wed in Tyrosh or Old Volantis, where her father’s writ did not run, and no one would care that Ser Criston had betrayed his vows as a member of the Kingsguard. His prowess with sword and morningstar was such that he did not doubt he could find some merchant prince to take him into service. But Rhaenyra refused him. She was the blood of the dragon, she reminded him, and meant for more than to live out her life as the wife of a common sellsword. And if he could set aside his Kingsguard vows, why would marriage vows mean any more to him?

The positive thing about that version is that it didn't drag Cole into the affair back 111 AC. That was strictly Daemon successfully seducing his niece, with no additional plan to help Rhaenyra seduce Cole - and thus no redundant plot devices. Instead, this creates the imagine of Cole having fallen in love with the princess during the years he served her and deciding to take the last moment before her marriage to actually make a move, confess his love, and beg her to run away together.

And there the guy is turned down, possibly because Rhaenyra was, in fact, not really in love with Cole after all. At least not to degree that would cause her ever to throw away her crown and marry a man who was basically just an up-jumped steward's son who was only allowed to address her because her father had given him a white cloak.

Mushroom is the only one who tells us that Rhaenyra was deeply in love with Criston Cole. And the times she has only eyes for him, etc. are when her darling uncle is away. Whenever Daemon shows up she spends her time with him, not Criston Cole. That tells us something.

It is also noteworthy that Eustace is somewhat positively inclined to Aegon II (although I assume it is wrong to call him a Green) and it is confirmed that he did not like Rhaenyra all that much. In that case it is odd that he were actually describing the Kingmaker as a jealous/scorned would-be lover rather than an stalwart and chaste guy as Mushroom does (who actually shows glee when he learns about Cole's death).

Cole is the guy who looks bad in Eustace's version - a KG who wants to break his vows to run of with the heir to the throne, abandoning the king he has sworn to protect - not so much Rhaenyra - who actually makes a lot of sense there. Rhaenyra does not look that well in Eustace's version of Daemon/Rhaenyra but she was a fourteen-year-old being seduced by an uncle who was very experienced in that field. Hardly something she has to be blamed for. The idea that a precocious child like Rhaenyra needed her uncle to find out how to pleasure or seduce a man is also not very convincing. She would have had access to books and among her ladies must have dozens of women who could have helped her in that field. Going to Daemon for help is something a woman in a porn story written by a man for other men would do, but not a real person.

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When Rhaenyra married Laenor and started having Strong babies, Cole was furious and indignated. But he could do nothing with it. King Viserys was blind to the truth, and he will always believe his loved daughter before his knight. After all, if Rhaenyra was accused, she could always say Cole was only a spurned suitor. Not the first time a man loses his head for her. And not the first time a white knight is send to the Wall ofr unapropiate conduct. Remember Lucamore the Lustful?

You completely mess up the chronology. Cole runs amok during Rhaenyra's wedding tourney, before she is pregnant, and before her first son is born.

If Mushroom's tale were true then Viserys I knew about Rhaenyra trying to seduce Cole and he knew Cole was as steadfast and chaste an old septa as Mushroom attests. Yet he didn't punish either his daughter for this, nor made any attempts to remove Cole from the siren who was trying to lead him astray. That would be very odd behavior, especially in a man who actually wants his daughter to succeed him.

It would also be out-of-character for Viserys I since the man actually separated Harwin Strong and Rhaenyra after Aemond had publicly implied Rhaenyra's sons may not have been fathered by Laenor. If he did that then - why on earth would he have given Rhaenyra another 2-3 years to try to seduce Cole by keeping him as her sworn shield?

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So Cole took his "rightful" anger to the only place where he can free it: the jousting field. Perhaps he believed the King of the Kisses was the father of the Strong boys. Or maybe believed the threesome of Rhaenyra/Laenor/Joffrey was repulsive and wanted to end it. Harwyn Strong was another evident target.

See above. No such motivation due to wrong chronology. And if Cole actually resigned as Rhaenyra's sworn shield because he was 'horrified' by her conduct, why on earth would he know/care that she may have had an affair with Harwin Strong thereafter? A jealous Cole would, a Cole glad to get away from the slut who was trying to corrupt him would, perhaps, thank the Seven that they freed him of the unnatural witch, but he would have never lashed out against her husband by killing his lover, nor by beating up Rhaenyra's possible new lover.

The average man simply does not have this kind of mindset. If the author wanted to make Cole a character for whom this kind of behavior made sense he would have given us more clues as to what his motivation might have been. But there is nothing of this sort there.

Bottom line is - we can be pretty certain what happened there.

The only thing from Mushroom's account that *may be* accurate here is that he found Rhaenyra and Harwin Strong abed together shortly before the Laenor marriage - although not so much because Rhaenyra had a falling-out with Cole (her rejecting him shouldn't have given her much heartache) but because this day had also be the day where her father had successfully forced her into the Laenor Velaryon marriage, and she wasn't happy with that at all.

If one would want to make a guess, then the Harwin thing - if there was a Harwin thing - began as a way to get back at her father. What it later became when Laenor and Rhaenyra had made their arrangement is much more unclear. It is pretty clear that the Velaryons were fine with Laenor not being the father of Rhaenyra's children if he wasn't the father of the children. But was Rhaenyra ever in love with Harwin? We really don't know.

Edited by Lord Varys

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On 3/3/2019 at 6:57 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

I actually buy Mushroom's theory more.

Text is deliberately written so either theory might be true or something in between.

I also oddly find his story most plausible. There is no strong evidence of Ser Criston have any relationship with Rhaenyra unlike with Deamon or Breakbones.

Only thing that people use to tie them together is his hatred of princess and her court. He certainly despised her, probably because he saw firsthand her true nature in attempts to use him as plaything and probably offering him same role Harwin Strong would have in future.

We also don't know what has been actually said in their "breakup" , insults or  threats of retribution when Rhaenyra gets the crown. His disdain later when she went to Driftmark may have been increased by rumors true or false about depravity involving her court.

Though his hatred later when Dance starts is result of murderous actions of opposing side.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Text is deliberately written so either theory might be true or something in between.

I think I made it pretty clear above that the Mushroom version is exceedingly less likely than the Eustace version. But I'm interested in your arguments why you think Mushroom might be more correct here, especially such arguments who actually address the text and deal with the inconsistencies and contradictions that arise when you actually buy the Mushroom version.

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I also oddly find his story most plausible. There is no strong evidence of Ser Criston have any relationship with Rhaenyra unlike with Deamon or Breakbones.

Nobody ever said they had a relationship. Both Eustace and Mushroom claim that Rhaenyra and/or Cole had the hots for the other, but nobody ever says they ever had a romantic relationship, much less a relationship that was actually consummated. It is certainly possible that they had sex or exchanged kisses, etc. but if that's the case then nobody ever told us.

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Only thing that people use to tie them together is his hatred of princess and her court. He certainly despised her, probably because he saw firsthand her true nature in attempts to use him as plaything and probably offering him same role Harwin Strong would have in future.

Nobody ever said anything about Rhaenyra offering Cole such a role. Eustace says Cole wanted Rhaenyra to run away with him and marry him in Essos, and Mushroom claims Rhaenyra just wanted Cole to fuck her, causing Laenor to reject her. He never said anything about Cole becoming her official lover or the father of her children.

But if Cole actually was Rhaenyra's lover before their falling-out - and she and Harwin had an affair later, too - then Cole definitely was Harwin 0.0.

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

We also don't know what has been actually said in their "breakup" , insults or  threats of retribution when Rhaenyra gets the crown. His disdain later when she went to Driftmark may have been increased by rumors true or false about depravity involving her court.

There was no such court at this point, and if there had been then Cole clearly would have been in the middle of all that depravity. After all, we know it from a lot a sources that he was always at her side. And Alicent publicly asking who protects Rhaenyra from Ser Criston is a rather strong implication that the man may have indeed where no man had before, not even Prince Daemon.

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Though his hatred later when Dance starts is result of murderous actions of opposing side.

Do you have any textual evidence for this? Criston Cole doesn't express his hatred for Rhaenyra during the Dance but when the Green Council stages the coup. Not to mention that this guy is behind most the murderous actions of the Greens - at least while he was still at court/alive.

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Isn’t there some story about Viserys forcing Rhaenyra to choose between the crown and ser Criston? If true that she chose the crown, it would explain why her not having it is so important to him.

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4 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Isn’t there some story about Viserys forcing Rhaenyra to choose between the crown and ser Criston? If true that she chose the crown, it would explain why her not having it is so important to him.

He forced her to marry Laenor Velaryon by threatening to change the succession should she not comply. She did comply. Criston Cole had nothing to do with any of that.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

He forced her to marry Laenor Velaryon by threatening to change the succession should she not comply. She did comply. Criston Cole had nothing to do with any of that.

You are partially correct, though the ultimatum was made in regards to Laenor or no crown, Criston offered to ”rescue” Rhaenyra and take her to Essos to be his sellswordswife and she didn’t so she did chose the crown over him.

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2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

You are partially correct, though the ultimatum was made in regards to Laenor or no crown, Criston offered to ”rescue” Rhaenyra and take her to Essos to be his sellswordswife and she didn’t so she did chose the crown over him.

Well, Rhaenyra had accepted her father's ultimatum before that. All Cole offered her - according to the Eustace version, that is - is to save her from the Laenor marriage she had already agreed to.

In light of the situation Rhaenyra was in at that point - an impossible marriage she could not prevent - it is even more likely that the Eustace version is correct. Cole comes in as the gallant knight, saving his princess from an ugly fate, whereas the Mushroom version has her thinking about sex and making herself into a whore to shame Laenor into rejecting her (as if he would care) rather, than, you know, be actually mentally concerned with the topic at hand.

For Criston, on the other hand, it was now or never. Either tell Rhaenyra what he felt and win (and save) her or lose her forever. He is Littlefinger with a white cloak, basically.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Rhaenyra had accepted her father's ultimatum before that. All Cole offered her - according to the Eustace version, that is - is to save her from the Laenor marriage she had already agreed to.

In light of the situation Rhaenyra was in at that point - an impossible marriage she could not prevent - it is even more likely that the Eustace version is correct. Cole comes in as the gallant knight, saving his princess from an ugly fate, whereas the Mushroom version has her thinking about sex and making herself into a whore to shame Laenor into rejecting her (as if he would care) rather, than, you know, be actually mentally concerned with the topic at hand.

For Criston, on the other hand, it was now or never. Either tell Rhaenyra what he felt and win (and save) her or lose her forever. He is Littlefinger with a white cloak, basically.

Agreed.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think I made it pretty clear above that the Mushroom version is exceedingly less likely than the Eustace version. But I'm interested in your arguments why you think Mushroom might be more correct here, especially such arguments who actually address the text and deal with the inconsistencies and contradictions that arise when you actually buy the Mushroom version.

What makes you think that other than Your preconceptions, I remember you claimed Eustace fabricated Rhaenyra being cut by the throne.
It isn’t very plausible that  23 year old man get hots for the 7 year old girl, unless he has some issues like Daemon probably did, with evidence of preferring young girls „especial fondness for deflowering maidens“ .
In contrast we have multiple reports of Rhaenyra being infatuated with her „white knight“ while Cole seems only doing his job.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever said they had a relationship. Both Eustace and Mushroom claim that Rhaenyra and/or Cole had the hots for the other, but nobody ever says they ever had a romantic relationship, much less a relationship that was actually consummated. It is certainly possible that they had sex or exchanged kisses, etc. but if that's the case then nobody ever told us.

Eustace also paints Cole especially negatively during the Small council meting regarding Beesbury's death and also convincing Aegon II to claim the throne, along with reasons of contempt over Rhaenyra , and they collide with different sources about him. 

Gyldane writes his history 150 years later using those sources for which none was present at meeting.

If anything existed between Rhaenyra and Ser Criston , it would be huge scandal , and there were many who would exploit that to their advantage with even bit of proof. He also wouldn't be promoted to Lord Commander if even whispers of that were heard. 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever said anything about Rhaenyra offering Cole such a role. Eustace says Cole wanted Rhaenyra to run away with him and marry him in Essos, and Mushroom claims Rhaenyra just wanted Cole to fuck her, causing Laenor to reject her. He never said anything about Cole becoming her official lover or the father of her children.

But if Cole actually was Rhaenyra's lover before their falling-out - and she and Harwin had an affair later, too - then Cole definitely was Harwin 0.0.

It is very possible that she did, considering she had taken Breakbones as companion quickly after the quarrel with her father about marriage and later Ser Cole, Harwin Strong wasn’t featured at all in any report before that spout. 
Eustace and Mushroom can be both wrong, it is certain that Ser Cole didn’t spoke about his reasons  and his actions were used as inspiration for their theories . Do we have evidence of Rhaenyra telling anything about it to Mushroom?


Rhaenyra seems as very  entitled, spoiled, prone to rash and angry decisions, before and during the Dance both. I really don’t find the Mushrooms version so far fetched(or at least it is closer to the truth). 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was no such court at this point, and if there had been then Cole clearly would have been in the middle of all that depravity. After all, we know it from a lot a sources that he was always at her side. And Alicent publicly asking who protects Rhaenyra from Ser Criston is a rather strong implication that the man may have indeed where no man had before, not even Prince Daemon.

When she goes to Driftmark to marry Laenor:
"Not long thereafter, Rhaenyra set sail for Driftmark on the Sea Snake, accompanied by her handmaids (two of them the daughters of the Hand and sisters to Ser Harwin), the fool Mushroom, and her new champion, none other than Breakbones himself." Leanor Velaryon and Joffery Lonmouth also would be part of her clique. With his personal experience , ser Arryk  spotting her with either Daemon or Breakbones or both,  and rumors about them true or false, would certainly incense his antipathy.

Alicent publicly saying. “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” and later taking him as personal protector and giving him charge of training her own children speaks volume of that cynical claim.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you have any textual evidence for this? Criston Cole doesn't express his hatred for Rhaenyra during the Dance but when the Green Council stages the coup. Not to mention that this guy is behind most the murderous actions of the Greens - at least while he was still at court/alive.

Before the Dance started the demand was that she accepts Aegon II as rightful king and remain as ruler of Dragonstone. We don’t see him asking immediately for her death only that She must not become the Queen.  After the Blood&Cheese murders  he tries to kill her at least two times.


"The pretender princess had made use of stealth and treachery to kill Prince Jaehaerys, Cole said; let them do the same. “We will pay the princess back in her own bloody coin,”

What murderous actions are those?

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

What makes you think that other than Your preconceptions, I remember you claimed Eustace fabricated Rhaenyra being cut by the throne.
It isn’t very plausible that  23 year old man get hots for the 7 year old girl, unless he has some issues like Daemon probably did, with evidence of preferring young girls „especial fondness for deflowering maidens“ .

It is pretty impossible that a woman completely in armor cuts herself on a throne, at least on those parts of her body that are covered by armor. If Rhaenyra was sore the because she, a plump and pampered woman who, most likely, had never worn armor before, had spent hours in armor on dragonback and then hours in armor on the Iron Throne.

Quote

And on Dragonstone, Rhaenyra Targaryen donned a suit of gleaming black scale, mounted Syrax, and took flight as a rainstorm lashed the waters of Blackwater Bay.

[...]

There was no way to spirit away the Iron Throne, however. Nor would Queen Rhaenyra sleep until she claimed her father’s seat. So the torches were lit in the throne room, and the queen climbed the iron steps and seated herself where King Viserys had sat before her, and the Old King before him, and Maegor and Aenys and Aegon the Dragon in days of old. Stern-faced, still in her armor, she sat on high as every man and woman in the Red Keep was brought forth and made to kneel before her, to plead for her forgiveness and swear their lives and swords and honor to her as their queen.

Septon Eustace tells us that the ceremony went on all through that night. It was well past dawn when Rhaenyra Targaryen rose and made her descent. “And as her lord husband Prince Daemon escorted her from the hall, cuts were seen upon Her Grace’s legs and the palm of her left hand,” wrote Eustace. “Drops of blood fell to the floor as she went past, and wise men looked at one another, though none dared speak the truth aloud: the Iron Throne had spurned her, and her days upon it would be few.”

We can be reasonably certain that Eustace wouldn't have had a chance to see the legs of a woman still in her armor, no? The cuts on the palm or her left may have been genuine - or not, if gloves had come with the set of black scales she was wearing. But even if she had cuts there, they could have been there before she ascended the throne, from an accident with the whip back when she was riding Syrax, etc.

Even so, the question of the blood is not really the issue, it is the interpretation that comes with it, an interpretation Eustace does not make at the time of the event but post hoc. He writes his history long after the Dance, after Unwin Peake had dismissed him, and he phrases his history in such a way as to make Rhaenyra Targaryen look bad and to add a bad omen to the moment of her triumph foreshadowing her downfall which he knew he would come when he was writing.

Eustace's bias evident in that as well in the fact that he doesn't give Aegon II the same bad omens, despite the fact that he would have a pitiful end, too.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

In contrast we have multiple reports of Rhaenyra being infatuated with her „white knight“ while Cole seems only doing his job.

So you think a seven-year-old girl actually can have the hots for a 23-year-old man ;-)?

Rhaenyra was sixteen years old when Cole confessed his love for her as per Eustace. There is an age gap, but not that large an age gap, and the idea that the Daemon thing 2-3 years earlier did involve Cole in any way, shape, or form is only evident in Mushroom's version of events.

And as I lay out - Mushroom's characters in the fiction - fiction, not history - he is writing don't act even remotely like real people. According to him, Rhaenyra tried to seduce Cole twice using exactly the same means - things she learned from Daemon, whores, and Mushroom himself, basically - and the guy twice rejected her because he was chaste as an old septa and horrified by her behavior. Rhaenyra was by all accounts a very proud woman. She would not humble herself twice in this ridiculous manner. Vice versa, Cole being horrified about her behavior and conduct would have abandoned her to become her lasting enemy back in 111 AC, not only three years later when she approached him a second time.

Not to mention that Mushroom himself claims King Viserys learned about all that had transpired between both Prince Daemon and Rhaenyra and Cole and Rhaenyra, making it completely impossible he would have allowed his daughter to continue to spend time with Cole - after all, he also later separated her from Harwin Strong in 120 AC, no?

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Eustace also paints Cole especially negatively during the Small council meting regarding Beesbury's death and also convincing Aegon II to claim the throne, along with reasons of contempt over Rhaenyra , and they collide with different sources about him.

With bad sources. Orwyle is the other source about Beesbury, and he tries to exonerate himself there, pretending he tried everything in his power to prevent the Dance. And Mushroom provides the more ridiculous version of Beesbury's death at Cole's hands, his disadvantage being that he wasn't there. Eustace was. Not at the council as such, but in the Red Keep, and he was the confessor of the people at court, some of which may have been confided in him to lighten their hearts.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Gyldane writes his history 150 years later using those sources for which none was present at meeting.

Orwyles was, and his account actually pretty much agrees with Eustace's. The only difference between these two mostly is who said what at which time, with Orwyle trying to paint himself as a man who tried to prevent the coup.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

If anything existed between Rhaenyra and Ser Criston , it would be huge scandal , and there were many who would exploit that to their advantage with even bit of proof. He also wouldn't be promoted to Lord Commander if even whispers of that were heard. 

Well, according to Mushroom the king at least knew about all that had transpired between Cole and Rhaenyra in 111 AC. Don't you find it odd that Cole never actually refers to Rhaenyra's ugly and despicable means of seducing him in any of his dialogues during the Dance? If he had not been jealous but rather horrified by her behavior, he should have brought that up when telling everybody at the Green Council why she should not have the throne.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is very possible that she did, considering she had taken Breakbones as companion quickly after the quarrel with her father about marriage and later Ser Cole, Harwin Strong wasn’t featured at all in any report before that spout. 
Eustace and Mushroom can be both wrong, it is certain that Ser Cole didn’t spoke about his reasons  and his actions were used as inspiration for their theories . Do we have evidence of Rhaenyra telling anything about it to Mushroom?

Actually, both Mushroom and Eustace don't provide us with theories. They say what they reported did happen, meaning that Mushroom likely wants us to buy that Cole/Rhaenyra told him (or talked about stuff in his presence) and Eustace that they confessed that what had transpired to them.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra seems as very  entitled, spoiled, prone to rash and angry decisions, before and during the Dance both. I really don’t find the Mushrooms version so far fetched(or at least it is closer to the truth). 

Well, if you like contradictory characters doing stuff that makes no sense, go along ;-).

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

When she goes to Driftmark to marry Laenor:
"Not long thereafter, Rhaenyra set sail for Driftmark on the Sea Snake, accompanied by her handmaids (two of them the daughters of the Hand and sisters to Ser Harwin), the fool Mushroom, and her new champion, none other than Breakbones himself." Leanor Velaryon and Joffery Lonmouth also would be part of her clique. With his personal experience , ser Arryk  spotting her with either Daemon or Breakbones or both,  and rumors about them true or false, would certainly incense his antipathy.

No, Laenor and Joffrey weren't part of circle, certainly not before her marriage, and most definitely not thereafter - not because Joffrey was dead, but also because she and Laenor did not live together.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Alicent publicly saying. “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” and later taking him as personal protector and giving him charge of training her own children speaks volume of that cynical claim.

Exactly, it shows Alicent's hypocrisy and her tendency to try to throw dirt at her step-daughter even while they were still on reasonably good footing.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Before the Dance started the demand was that she accepts Aegon II as rightful king and remain as ruler of Dragonstone. We don’t see him asking immediately for her death only that She must not become the Queen.  After the Blood&Cheese murders  he tries to kill her at least two times.

Cole kills Beesbury and Cole insist she does not become queen, even telling Aegon II some nonsense that he accepts the crown (which may or may not be true).

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

"The pretender princess had made use of stealth and treachery to kill Prince Jaehaerys, Cole said; let them do the same. “We will pay the princess back in her own bloody coin,”

What murderous actions are those?

The execution of the loyalist Blacks that were imprisoned is done at his instigation, as are the rather pointless attacks on the lords of the Crownlands. The sack of Duskendale, the butchery at Rook's Rest, etc. Not to mention the devious attempt of Ser Arryk Cargyll. Remember that Blood and Cheese is only a response to the murder of Lucerys Velaryon.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty impossible that a woman completely in armor cuts herself on a throne, at least on those parts of her body that are covered by armor. If Rhaenyra was sore the because she, a plump and pampered woman who, most likely, had never worn armor before, had spent hours in armor on dragonback and then hours in armor on the Iron Throne.

There is art in F&B showing  Rhaenyra with cuts on her wrist and on her thighs, though not all images are canon it leaves option how it would be possible to have those cuts. He also mentions her cuts not only in detail of her first kneeling ceremony, but on multiple occasions. There were many people present there to be so easily fabricated. 

"In the fullness of her victory, Rhaenyra Targaryen did not suspect how few days remained to her. Yet every time she sat the Iron Throne, its cruel blades drew fresh blood from her hands and arms and legs, a sign that all could read."

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We can be reasonably certain that Eustace wouldn't have had a chance to see the legs of a woman still in her armor, no? The cuts on the palm or her left may have been genuine - or not, if gloves had come with the set of black scales she was wearing. But even if she had cuts there, they could have been there before she ascended the throne, from an accident with the whip back when she was riding Syrax, etc.

Even so, the question of the blood is not really the issue, it is the interpretation that comes with it, an interpretation Eustace does not make at the time of the event but post hoc. He writes his history long after the Dance, after Unwin Peake had dismissed him, and he phrases his history in such a way as to make Rhaenyra Targaryen look bad and to add a bad omen to the moment of her triumph foreshadowing her downfall which he knew he would come when he was writing.

Eustace's bias evident in that as well in the fact that he doesn't give Aegon II the same bad omens, despite the fact that he would have a pitiful end, too.

Eustace for all its bias toward the Aegon II has some less damning reports about Rhaenyra probably trying to preserve Targaryen dynasty image or some sort of dignity. Aegon II didn’t sit much in the throne he was soon after coronation badly hurt, when reinstated he couldn't climb on it because of his injuries. That can also be interpreted as sort of  sign, like Viserys cutting himself and being afraid to sit.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think a seven-year-old girl actually can have the hots for a 23-year-old man ;-)?

Rhaenyra was sixteen years old when Cole confessed his love for her as per Eustace. There is an age gap, but not that large an age gap, and the idea that the Daemon thing 2-3 years earlier did involve Cole in any way, shape, or form is only evident in Mushroom's version of events.

And as I lay out - Mushroom's characters in the fiction - fiction, not history - he is writing don't act even remotely like real people. According to him, Rhaenyra tried to seduce Cole twice using exactly the same means - things she learned from Daemon, whores, and Mushroom himself, basically - and the guy twice rejected her because he was chaste as an old septa and horrified by her behavior. Rhaenyra was by all accounts a very proud woman. She would not humble herself twice in this ridiculous manner. Vice versa, Cole being horrified about her behavior and conduct would have abandoned her to become her lasting enemy back in 111 AC, not only three years later when she approached him a second time.

Not to mention that Mushroom himself claims King Viserys learned about all that had transpired between both Prince Daemon and Rhaenyra and Cole and Rhaenyra, making it completely impossible he would have allowed his daughter to continue to spend time with Cole - after all, he also later separated her from Harwin Strong in 120 AC, no?

Not sure about hots, but some kind of adoration existed certainly, that might have developed later with her growing up. He probably still saw her as little girl since he spent most of his time babysitting her.
That would be kinda plausible if he was separated few years and arrived to see her grown up and attractive , but sitting all the time with little spoiled princess I doubt it would make him loose himself.


Those two reports by Eustace ( Daemon seducing her ( with pretense of getting Cole for her in Mushroom addition), Arryk finding them together, Daemon was banished or ) 111 AC.
Mushroom ( Rhaenyra trying to seduce Ser Cole,  Ser Arryk finding her with Strong , Their „breakup“ 113 AC) seems to have events overlap, though it would be really funny that Ser Arryk stumbled two times on Princes’s disgrace. 
If anything major happened between her and her champion it was in 113AC not before. 
 

 If King had any notion of their assumed liaison, Ser Cole would answer for breaking his vows , even more than Lucamore Strong did. The greens would probably exploit that if it even sliver of proof existed, prior to him changing his allegiance. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

With bad sources. Orwyle is the other source about Beesbury, and he tries to exonerate himself there, pretending he tried everything in his power to prevent the Dance. And Mushroom provides the more ridiculous version of Beesbury's death at Cole's hands, his disadvantage being that he wasn't there. Eustace was. Not at the council as such, but in the Red Keep, and he was the confessor of the people at court, some of which may have been confided in him to lighten their hearts.

Only Orwyle was on meeting.Though Eustace was freed after the Blacks have won and Orwyle was sentenced. Orwyle tries to paint himself in his confession as man of peace and supporter of Rhaenyra and give himself credit for what Beesbuy had said. Orwyle had no power to influence fate of Beesbury for good or ill.
His claim that Beesbury was escorted to Black Cells where he died eventually, since the man was 80 year old, seems genuine.
Killing lord of small council with everyone present is outrageous claim. That holds little truth on deeper inspection.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Orwyles was, and his account actually pretty much agrees with Eustace's. The only difference between these two mostly is who said what at which time, with Orwyle trying to paint himself as a man who tried to prevent the coup.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cole kills Beesbury and Cole insist she does not become queen, even telling Aegon II some nonsense that he accepts the crown (which may or may not be true).


We don’t have proof of Ser Cole killing Beesbury , I highly doubt that Lord  Commander would do it in front of Queen, Hand and entire small council, without any reprimand and later listen to Hand's commands to get Rhaenyra’s supporters without violence.

He might have told Aegon II his opinion of the consequence of not taking the throne, with evidence of Rhaenyra and Daemon killing people who doubted patrimony of her children, Daemons nature and her corruptibility that outcome is very possible .

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, according to Mushroom the king at least knew about all that had transpired between Cole and Rhaenyra in 111 AC. Don't you find it odd that Cole never actually refers to Rhaenyra's ugly and despicable means of seducing him in any of his dialogues during the Dance? If he had not been jealous but rather horrified by her behavior, he should have brought that up when telling everybody at the Green Council why she should not have the throne.

Ser Criston Cole spoke up. Should the princess reign, he reminded them, Jacaerys Velaryon would rule after her. “Seven save this realm if we seat a bastard on the Iron Throne.” He spoke of Rhaenyra’s wanton ways and the infamy of her husband. “They will turn the Red Keep into a brothel. No man’s daughter will be safe, nor any man’s wife. Even the boys…we know what Laenor was.”

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, both Mushroom and Eustace don't provide us with theories. They say what they reported did happen, meaning that Mushroom likely wants us to buy that Cole/Rhaenyra told him (or talked about stuff in his presence) and Eustace that they confessed that what had transpired to them.

Neither Mushroom nor Eustace seem to be privy to what happened between the closed doors but usually use  secondary sources and there many fallible reports in either of their writings.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you like contradictory characters doing stuff that makes no sense, go along ;-).

When looking novel that is written through disputing historical records of opposing sides in Civil War, I try to use deductive approach to look for reoccurring patterns in behavior, decision making or rational explanations if possible.

If you doubt something painfully obvious like bastardy of Rhaenyra's first three children I would have made second thought before throwing stone.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, Laenor and Joffrey weren't part of circle, certainly not before her marriage, and most definitely not thereafter - not because Joffrey was dead, but also because she and Laenor did not live together.

They did spend some time after her leaving to Driftmark and seem to be getting along l with each giving their favors to champions at the tourney. She left there around 113 and wedding was in 114 AC, her first child is born in waning days of 114 AC  so there is time period in which they would begin their companionship and rumors  true or false about them could arrive to Ser Cole since he still didn't join Alicent yet.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Exactly, it shows Alicent's hypocrisy and her tendency to try to throw dirt at her step-daughter even while they were still on reasonably good footing.

In this specific case she trowed dirt on Ser Cole , not on her step-daughter.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The execution of the loyalist Blacks that were imprisoned is done at his instigation, as are the rather pointless attacks on the lords of the Crownlands. The sack of Duskendale, the butchery at Rook's Rest, etc. Not to mention the devious attempt of Ser Arryk Cargyll. Remember that Blood and Cheese is only a response to the murder of Lucerys Velaryon.

War has already started and both sides considered others traitors and rebels. ( murder of Lucerys and Blood&Cheese atrocity, banners were called and armies marched. Some of the first military actions have been done by Black supporters. (Blackwoods attacked Brackens, battles of Burning Mill and Stone Hedge happened, Daemon had taken Harenhall, and great number of lords started declaring for Rhaenyra in the Reach).


Ser Cristons policy was steel fist instead of Otto's more diplomatic approach. Captured black supporters were given one last chance and those who refused made example for their defiance after having more than enough time to bend the knee. Oddly Lord Harte was one of those executed ,staunch supporter of Blacks.
Entire Realm was notified of Aegon II ascending the throne, they were asked to swear oaths or be proclaimed traitors. 


Rosby, Stokeworth lords when offered last chance repented, and their lands were spared, their men joined Aegon’s army, Duskendale was taken by surprise, even then the garrison was given chance to bend the knee, its lord was executed since he had chance to do that earlier, city was sacked as punishment and harbor set afire probably because Velaryon’s wouldn’t use it since they had naval advantage. 

Rook’s Rest 800 men died in the battle against Rhaenys, 100 died when they had to take the Rook’s Rest and put its garrison to death. That seems as standard rule of engagement, castles that don’t yield suffer that fate so that other don’t continue resisting. Jaime threatening castles in Riverlands if they don’t yield similarly.

Ser Arryk Cargyll had mission to slay Rhaenyra, putting an end to her rebellion at a stroke, even as revenge it is aimed to leader of blacks responsible for their crimes.
Blood&Cheese is evil  arbitrary act of retribution demanding “ son for a son“, that isn’t directed as justice to person responsible of crime or it's Superior, even ignoring it's excessive cruelty and murder of handmaids, threats for rape of child and premeditated torture of mother.

Those all are certainly severe acts, but can't be considered crimes since from information we have are done by standard rules of warfare, and by authority of King. Aegon II actually was recognized as king by even Blacks after the war unlike the Princess.

Edited by Eltharion21

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Guy just seem like a well skilled man child. No way someone beats up two guys at a wedding without being a hurt fool. 

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