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Daemon of the Blacks

So what was Criston Cole's deal?

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On 3/4/2019 at 9:57 AM, Lord Varys said:

The whole Daemon teaching her sex stuff is utterly ridiculous. That is a ripoff/nod to Choderlos de Laclos' Les Liaisons dangereuses. It is sort of fun when John Malkovich and Uma Thurman do it, but it is basically just a ridiculous thing - it only makes sense in literature, even in the book/movie both the girl and the guy the schemers want to 'hurt' by spoiling his 'innocent bride' are caricatures, not real people.

[For the record: In the book/various movies two bored aristocrats start a scheme to get back at one of the woman's previous lovers by turning his young bride (who has been raised in a monastery) into a slut so the guy is 'shocked' in his wedding night when the bride actually knows what to do to give him pleasure. It is as silly as it sounds here, both in book/movies and in Martinworld, too (which doesn't mean I don't like it ;-)).]

If that were true one would have to answer the question as to why Cole did not resign as Rhaenyra's sworn shield as he later did - or why Viserys I didn't reassign him to some other duty.

The Daemon/Rhaenyra thing took place in 111 AC, three years before Rhaenyra's marriage in 114 AC, and two years before her marriage was arranged (in 113 AC, when she turned sixteen).

Mushroom claims the following took place in 111 AC, during the six months of Daemon's return to court:

The bold makes it clear that as per Mushroom the king actually learned what had transpired not only between Rhaenyra and Daemon, but also between Cole and Rhaenyra, and therefore it makes no sense that Cole should have continued as Rhaenyra's sworn shield for three more years.

Even more so, Mushroom's tale as to what happened later when Rhaenyra's marriage was arranged and she finally had her falling-out with Cole is essentially the same story that we got for 111 AC:

Are we to believe that Rhaenyra actually tried twice to give Cole handjobs or blowjobs or whatever else we think those things she learned thanks to Daemon? Shouldn't she have realized the first time that the guy did not want her? Shouldn't Cole have realized back in 111 AC that Rhaenyra was a slut not worthy of his platonic love (if he loved her at all, which doesn't seem to be the case in Mushroom's version)?

How thick must Mushroom's Rhaenyra be to not understand this?

I don't think this makes sense. I'd say Mushroom, being a rather cheap entertainer and lazy story-teller just used the same plot device twice (slutty princess, chaste knight).

Take Eustace's account on the other hand, first the 111 AC and then the 113-14 AC account:

This is the more realistic and the more believable version, especially since apparently nobody in the contemporary sources actually told or made references to the Mushroom version - which, by and far, should have completely destroyed Rhaenyra's reputation. Once Cole was Rhaenyra's deadly enemy he would have done everything in his power to spread the Mushroom version if that had been the truth, because that could have really killed Rhaenyra the Heir Apparent. Even if not, it should have been more than enough blacken her reputation so much that nobody would have fought for 'the slut' during the Dance.

The Eustace version makes it clear that what transpired behind closed doors - Rhaenyra losing her maidenhead - actually did remain a secret for the public at large. This fits with the other accounts given by Runciter and anonymous others who helped the king to hush things up (Runciter, who only records that Daemon and Viserys I quarreled again - which is the truth but not the whole truth) or who simply didn't know what transpired and speculated (anonymous others who said Alicent convinced Viserys I to send Daemon away again - which she certainly may have tried to do but succeeded at only after the Rhaenyra affair).

It also gives us the explanation as to why Arryk Cargyll stayed with the Greens during the Dance.

Let's now take a look at Eustace's account of 113-14 AC:

The positive thing about that version is that it didn't drag Cole into the affair back 111 AC. That was strictly Daemon successfully seducing his niece, with no additional plan to help Rhaenyra seduce Cole - and thus no redundant plot devices. Instead, this creates the imagine of Cole having fallen in love with the princess during the years he served her and deciding to take the last moment before her marriage to actually make a move, confess his love, and beg her to run away together.

And there the guy is turned down, possibly because Rhaenyra was, in fact, not really in love with Cole after all. At least not to degree that would cause her ever to throw away her crown and marry a man who was basically just an up-jumped steward's son who was only allowed to address her because her father had given him a white cloak.

Mushroom is the only one who tells us that Rhaenyra was deeply in love with Criston Cole. And the times she has only eyes for him, etc. are when her darling uncle is away. Whenever Daemon shows up she spends her time with him, not Criston Cole. That tells us something.

It is also noteworthy that Eustace is somewhat positively inclined to Aegon II (although I assume it is wrong to call him a Green) and it is confirmed that he did not like Rhaenyra all that much. In that case it is odd that he were actually describing the Kingmaker as a jealous/scorned would-be lover rather than an stalwart and chaste guy as Mushroom does (who actually shows glee when he learns about Cole's death).

Cole is the guy who looks bad in Eustace's version - a KG who wants to break his vows to run of with the heir to the throne, abandoning the king he has sworn to protect - not so much Rhaenyra - who actually makes a lot of sense there. Rhaenyra does not look that well in Eustace's version of Daemon/Rhaenyra but she was a fourteen-year-old being seduced by an uncle who was very experienced in that field. Hardly something she has to be blamed for. The idea that a precocious child like Rhaenyra needed her uncle to find out how to pleasure or seduce a man is also not very convincing. She would have had access to books and among her ladies must have dozens of women who could have helped her in that field. Going to Daemon for help is something a woman in a porn story written by a man for other men would do, but not a real person.

You completely mess up the chronology. Cole runs amok during Rhaenyra's wedding tourney, before she is pregnant, and before her first son is born.

If Mushroom's tale were true then Viserys I knew about Rhaenyra trying to seduce Cole and he knew Cole was as steadfast and chaste an old septa as Mushroom attests. Yet he didn't punish either his daughter for this, nor made any attempts to remove Cole from the siren who was trying to lead him astray. That would be very odd behavior, especially in a man who actually wants his daughter to succeed him.

It would also be out-of-character for Viserys I since the man actually separated Harwin Strong and Rhaenyra after Aemond had publicly implied Rhaenyra's sons may not have been fathered by Laenor. If he did that then - why on earth would he have given Rhaenyra another 2-3 years to try to seduce Cole by keeping him as her sworn shield?

See above. No such motivation due to wrong chronology. And if Cole actually resigned as Rhaenyra's sworn shield because he was 'horrified' by her conduct, why on earth would he know/care that she may have had an affair with Harwin Strong thereafter? A jealous Cole would, a Cole glad to get away from the slut who was trying to corrupt him would, perhaps, thank the Seven that they freed him of the unnatural witch, but he would have never lashed out against her husband by killing his lover, nor by beating up Rhaenyra's possible new lover.

The average man simply does not have this kind of mindset. If the author wanted to make Cole a character for whom this kind of behavior made sense he would have given us more clues as to what his motivation might have been. But there is nothing of this sort there.

Bottom line is - we can be pretty certain what happened there.

The only thing from Mushroom's account that *may be* accurate here is that he found Rhaenyra and Harwin Strong abed together shortly before the Laenor marriage - although not so much because Rhaenyra had a falling-out with Cole (her rejecting him shouldn't have given her much heartache) but because this day had also be the day where her father had successfully forced her into the Laenor Velaryon marriage, and she wasn't happy with that at all.

If one would want to make a guess, then the Harwin thing - if there was a Harwin thing - began as a way to get back at her father. What it later became when Laenor and Rhaenyra had made their arrangement is much more unclear. It is pretty clear that the Velaryons were fine with Laenor not being the father of Rhaenyra's children if he wasn't the father of the children. But was Rhaenyra ever in love with Harwin? We really don't know.

this is something that bothers me: Gyldayn claims that Mushroom had a great affection for Rhaenyra, but his stories about her are so hypersexualised/gross. Like who could Aegon 3 & Viserys 2 have not been furious that their old court jester wrote unflattering pornography about their mother.

As an aside, does anyone think that Rhaenyra's more irrational behaviour stems from childhood sexual abuse at Daemon's hands, leading to complex PTSD?

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2 hours ago, voodooqueen126 said:

this is something that bothers me: Gyldayn claims that Mushroom had a great affection for Rhaenyra, but his stories about her are so hypersexualised/gross. Like who could Aegon 3 & Viserys 2 have not been furious that their old court jester wrote unflattering pornography about their mother.

Mushroom the man apparently actually did like Rhaenyra. Mushroom the (impoverished) former court jester telling stories to some scribe to get a roof over his head or some desperately needed coin likely didn't want to tell *the truth* but rather to entertain people.

Not to mention that Mushroom, while liking Rhaenyra, confessed to have not liked Aegon III, and he may have dictated his Testimony after the death of the Dragonbane or even only during the reign of Daeron I or Baelor the Blessed (the latter had copies of it burned, so it must have existed during his reign).

There are some gems of true knowledge in Mushroom's account, but most of his sexual and erotic episodes are worth as much as the later manuscript versions of a Caution for Young Girls.

2 hours ago, voodooqueen126 said:

As an aside, does anyone think that Rhaenyra's more irrational behaviour stems from childhood sexual abuse at Daemon's hands, leading to complex PTSD?

I don't think so, Rhaenyra's emotional issues stem from the fact that she lost a lot of people she truly loved while fighting a war for her family's survival she was not prepared for. It started with the stillbirth of her daughter and the death of her followed, and followed the deaths of four of her sons (at least in her mind), the loss of her mother-in-law, the betrayal of people she trusted, etc.

Daemon and Rhaenyra only seem to have had a real affair when she was fourteen. Which means she was still young, but one can imagine she knew what she was doing there. Just as she knew what she wanted.

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Cole is commentary on Jaime and everything we are given about him should be looked at through that lens. From the outside looking in what would the twists and turns in Jaime's relationship with Cersei look like? What would Jaime's characters appear in general?

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23 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Cole is commentary on Jaime and everything we are given about him should be looked at through that lens. From the outside looking in what would the twists and turns in Jaime's relationship with Cersei look like? What would Jaime's characters appear in general?

Cole is his own character. Jaime is not in love with a Targaryen princess who was named Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, nor was he ever motivated by the kind of twisted jealousy and ambition that drove Cole. The man has much more in common with Littlefinger (humble origins, a desire to prove himself, a presumptuous love/desire, a driving ambition and a hunger for power).

Jaime has literally nothing of that, and how could he? He is the golden boy of the West, the only character in this series who never had to fight anything he had.

The only parallels between Jaime and Cole are superficial. Even if Jaime ends up becoming a 'Kingmaker', too, (which is not unlikely) he will have completely different motivations than Cole, making them to have pretty much nothing in common.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Cole is his own character. Jaime is not in love with a Targaryen princess who was named Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne, nor was he ever motivated by the kind of twisted jealousy and ambition that drove Cole. The man has much more in common with Littlefinger (humble origins, a desire to prove himself, a presumptuous love/desire, a driving ambition and a hunger for power).

Jaime has literally nothing of that, and how could he? He is the golden boy of the West, the only character in this series who never had to fight anything he had.

The only parallels between Jaime and Cole are superficial. Even if Jaime ends up becoming a 'Kingmaker', too, (which is not unlikely) he will have completely different motivations than Cole, making them to have pretty much nothing in common.

No he's very clearly a Jaime parallel and that should be the point anyone looking to understand the purpose of character should start from.

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5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No he's very clearly a Jaime parallel and that should be the point anyone looking to understand the purpose of character should start from.

I agree it is much closer parallel to Jaime , especially his chivalrous aspirations ,being Lord Commander of Kingsguard which also commands army in Riverlands , Tyrion/Mushroom similarities and Rhaenyra/Cersei.

Parallels that Varys makes are purely his own construction that have basis in only one side of the story that paints him in worst light. 

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8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No he's very clearly a Jaime parallel and that should be the point anyone looking to understand the purpose of character should start from.

We don't have to try to understand the purpose of his character, we already do. We know as much about Cole's life as we ever will. His story is finished.

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I agree it is much closer parallel to Jaime , especially his chivalrous aspirations ,being Lord Commander of Kingsguard which also commands army in Riverlands , Tyrion/Mushroom similarities and Rhaenyra/Cersei.

Parallels that Varys makes are purely his own construction that have basis in only one side of the story that paints him in worst light. 

LOL, right. Why not make every guy commanding an army in the Riverlands a 'Cole parallel' - or better still: every Lord Commander of the Kingsguard a Cole or Jaime parallel. Since, you know, every Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is also an arrogant Lannister prick, fucking his sister, killing his king, and passing off his bastards as children of the king.

Not to mention, you know, at this point Jaime isn't even a Kingmaker and Cole most definitely will never be a Kingslayer. There are no parallels insofar as the most crucial deeds of these two people are concerned. In fact, the KG most like Cole in the books right now is Barristan Selmy, now that he has imprisoned Hizdahr zo Loraq, becoming 'a Kingbreaker'. He is the one who became 'Hand of the Queen', paralleling Cole's rise to Hand of the King. Jaime still refuses to play the game of thrones on a meaningful level whereas Cole basically lived to do that. At least since Rhaenyra rejected him.

Tyrion also has nothing in common with Mushroom. Just because they are both dwarfs doesn't mean they have more in common than two completely unconnected human beings. Tyrion is a nobleman from the richest family of Westeros, Mushroom is a court jester with no family connection to any noble family whatsoever. Mushroom dictated a salacious book full of lies and exaggerations whereas Tyrion never did such a thing - nor is he likely to do any such thing. Mushroom makes fun of himself and the people around him whereas Tyrion desperately tries to prevent that people laugh about or ridicule him.

And, sure, Rhaenyra's three eldest sons are sort of a nod to Cersei and Jaime's children - especially Joffrey Velaryon - but Cersei and Rhaenyra have pretty nothing in common, either (aside from the superficial facts that they are both female and both wear crowns. Rhaenyra was never dominated by either her father or her husband, she has no issues trying to prove to the world that she can rule as well as the men around her, she never had to use lies and poison and murder to get what she wanted - because her father always indulged her. Rhaenyra is a pampered heir, whereas Cersei is an ambitious social climber who was, in her youth, used by her father as a breeding mare.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't have to try to understand the purpose of his character, we already do. We know as much about Cole's life as we ever will. His story is finished.

LOL, right. Why not make every guy commanding an army in the Riverlands a 'Cole parallel' - or better still: every Lord Commander of the Kingsguard a Cole or Jaime parallel. Since, you know, every Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is also an arrogant Lannister prick, fucking his sister, killing his king, and passing off his bastards as children of the king.

Not to mention, you know, at this point Jaime isn't even a Kingmaker and Cole most definitely will never be a Kingslayer. There are no parallels insofar as the most crucial deeds of these two people are concerned. In fact, the KG most like Cole in the books right now is Barristan Selmy, now that he has imprisoned Hizdahr zo Loraq, becoming 'a Kingbreaker'. He is the one who became 'Hand of the Queen', paralleling Cole's rise to Hand of the King. Jaime still refuses to play the game of thrones on a meaningful level whereas Cole basically lived to do that. At least since Rhaenyra rejected him.

Tyrion also has nothing in common with Mushroom. Just because they are both dwarfs doesn't mean they have more in common than two completely unconnected human beings. Tyrion is a nobleman from the richest family of Westeros, Mushroom is a court jester with no family connection to any noble family whatsoever. Mushroom dictated a salacious book full of lies and exaggerations whereas Tyrion never did such a thing - nor is he likely to do any such thing. Mushroom makes fun of himself and the people around him whereas Tyrion desperately tries to prevent that people laugh about or ridicule him.

And, sure, Rhaenyra's three eldest sons are sort of a nod to Cersei and Jaime's children - especially Joffrey Velaryon - but Cersei and Rhaenyra have pretty nothing in common, either (aside from the superficial facts that they are both female and both wear crowns. Rhaenyra was never dominated by either her father or her husband, she has no issues trying to prove to the world that she can rule as well as the men around her, she never had to use lies and poison and murder to get what she wanted - because her father always indulged her. Rhaenyra is a pampered heir, whereas Cersei is an ambitious social climber who was, in her youth, used by her father as a breeding mare.

We have much more written about characters in Asoiaf , with less in F&B or other material any comparison would be questionably superficial, but that doesn't mean people can't see certain similarities. 

Other similarities I find between Jaime and Cole are , both being counted among best fighters at the time, both debatably lacking to achieve their potential or confirm the reputation in the War in their martial role (for Jaime so far at least). Besides that and connections to mentioned characters, these quotes connect those two in my opinion:

Quote

„Most have been forgotten. Most deserve to be forgotten. The heroes will always be remembered. The best. The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both.“

 

Quote

 

“How can you still count yourself a knight, when you have forsaken every vow you ever swore?" 

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.”

 

Quote

“That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.”

How is Cole anything resembling Littlefinger other than Your view that borders on Fan-fiction?

You give him:

1. Ambition and perfidy of Litllefinger ;

2. Preference for pre adolescent girls he shares with Daemon/Jorah that borders or is exploitative or abusing, along with delusion that Mormont has of marrying high above his station and sustainability of that relationship;

3. Some sprinkle of Aegon IV spitefulness in instigating war for slights or jealousy.

That character You are describing is construction and can not be explained rationally using the textual information we have, (maybe if we only take only the sources that have worst explanation of his deeds only taken in account) , but than it also wouldn't be consistent with his documented actions during the period.

There is more similarities between Tyrion and Mushroom other than both being dwarf in their wit or sense of humor and ridiculing lot of people they get in contact. Both Tyrion and Mushroom are also present on many council meetings and both have their say and influence events.

Both Cersei and Rhaenyra share cruelty as trait, being compared with Maegor,  focusing  on vengeance after having family tragedies or both lacking empathy toward people in similar situation.

Edited by Eltharion21

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58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Other similarities I find between Jaime and Cole are , both being counted among best fighters at the time, both debatably lacking to achieve their potential or confirm the reputation in the War in their martial role (for Jaime so far at least).

Cole did have considerable success in war, unlike Jaime. He masterminded the Green victory at Rook's Rest and brought the other Crownlanders to their heel. But I'm not sure why you think being a great Kingsguard - or even a great fighter, for that matter - implies that you also have 'potential' as a great general? That is not a given since those are actually completely different professions.

An obvious difference between Cole and Jaime is that the latter was physically crippled - nobody ever crippled Cole.

58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Besides that and connections to mentioned characters, these quotes connect those two in my opinion:

Those quotes are all about Jaime, they have nothing in common with Cole, do they? Cole was never conflicted between any vows, was he? Nor did he ever justify his actions to anyone, explaining he felt, for some strange reasons, that a vow he swore entitled him to betray both his king and the chosen heir of that king.

And Jaime chose to become the Smiling Knight if that's what he became. You don't just *become* someone like that without making crucial and informed choices along the way. I mean, Ser Arthur Dayne never banged his sister, as far as we know, nor did he cuckold the king he was sworn to protect, passing off his bastards as the royal children. Even if we don't raise the issue of the kingslaying Jaime clearly ranks among the worst KG ever. Once he chose to keep his cloak under Robert and Robert married Cersei he should have ended their relationship. But he did not. And the blame there is all his.

58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

How is Cole anything resembling Littlefinger other than Your view that borders on Fan-fiction?

I have repeatedly laid out how Cole and Littlefinger resemble each other. You seem to focus only on Littlefinger's worst traits, but that's not all that is to him. But then, you seem to be fond of rather superficial comparisons, like men bearing the same title or being, perhaps, of equal strength of arms being alike simply because of that.

58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

You give him:

1. Ambition and perfidy of Litllefinger;

They have a similar background, a similar desire/love for a woman they have no right to desire or love, and they have a similar ability to make themselves popular (i.e. charisma). They certainly excel at different fields, but the result is the same - they rise to the highest positions at court.

And Cole makes it very clear that he is nearly as perfidious or perhaps even more perfidious than Littlefinger. He came up with the Arryk Cargyll plan, corrupting one of his fellow KG to try to kill the rightful queen, he came up with the dragonrider trap at Rook's Rest. And if Alicent actually murdered Viserys I then Cole would have been part of that, too. He micromanaged/executed the entire Green coup - which is another perfidy in itself.

58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

2. Preference for pre adolescent girls he shares with Daemon/Jorah that borders or is exploitative or abusing, along with delusion that Mormont has of marrying high above his station and sustainability of that relationship;

I'd not say that Cole has a thing for pre-adolescent girls. When he made his move - if we follow the Eustace account which I do - Rhaenyra was already a woman grown, and she was fourteen when she supposedly approached Cole as per Mushroom - hardly the time she was still considered a child by Westerosi standards.

58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

That character You are describing is construction and can not be explained rationally using the textual information we have, (maybe if we only take only the sources that have worst explanation of his deeds only taken in account) , but than it also wouldn't be consistent with his documented actions during the period.

What inconsistencies are you referring here? I think we can reduce Cole to be a jealous and overly-ambitious prick who actually went as low to use the puppet king of his own making just to get back at the woman who spurned him. Because it is rather obvious that crowning Aegon II helped to kill, just as using him as a dragonrider against Rhaenys was not exactly in his best interests. 

58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

There is more similarities between Tyrion and Mushroom other than both being dwarf in their wit or sense of humor and ridiculing lot of people they get in contact. Both Tyrion and Mushroom are also present on many council meetings and both have their say and influence events.

Actually, Tyrion's sense of humor is less, well, salacious and ribald than Mushroom's. Mushroom is a little man who greatly extended his own role in his version of the story, Tyrion, on the other hand, never entertained anyone with the size of his member or invented stories how he used that to pleasure or teach Cersei, Sansa, or other great beauties of the court the carnal arts. Not to mention, you know, that Tyrion actually is somebody out of his own right, a nobleman with an actual office at court who openly shaped politics, whereas Mushroom is just a guy who claims to have done stuff like that behind the scenes with nobody ever noticing what was going on.

Not to mention, you know, that Tyrion, while liking to ridicule and humiliate other people, cannot laugh about himself. At least not in public. Laughing about oneself/ridiculing oneself was Mushroom's very job description.

There certainly are some parallels between these two dwarfs, but those are superficial parallels or nods to each other (for instance, Mushroom trying to claim Silverwing and failing certainly could hint at Tyrion trying to claim Viserion and succeeding). But if you analyze Mushroom to get a better understanding of Tyrion's character or vice versa you get nowhere.

58 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Both Cersei and Rhaenyra share cruelty as trait, being compared with Maegor,  focusing  on vengeance after having family tragedies or both lacking empathy toward people in similar situation.

That is just superficial, like citing Mace Tyrell's expertise on mad monarchs to insist there are strong similarities between Aerys II and Daenerys. Rhaenyra is not even remotely like Maegor, nor driven even remotely by similar motives as Cersei. In fact, Rhaenyra is much more similar to Catelyn than Cersei, insofar as the reactions and effects the losses of her children have on her. There is a difference in wanton cruelty and terror (i.e. Maegor) and cruelty and vindictiveness caused by outside pressure and political realities. Rhaenyra was fighting for what was hers by right, and was forced to work with what she had, whereas Maegor was solely motivated by his own petty ambition - and the ambition of his dear mother - to seize what by right should have been the property of the princes he brutally killed.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cole did have considerable success in war, unlike Jaime. He masterminded the Green victory at Rook's Rest and brought the other Crownlanders to their heel. But I'm not sure why you think being a great Kingsguard - or even a great fighter, for that matter - implies that you also have 'potential' as a great general? That is not a given since those are actually completely different professions.

An obvious difference between Cole and Jaime is that the latter was physically crippled - nobody ever crippled Cole.

Characters compared aren’t carbon copy , Their military success is debatable. Jaime is still alive and in war. He managed to take Riverrun, and deals with some other sieges with little bloodshed, using his brain rather than brawn he was famous for.

 Sir Cole when he accepts to become war time hand, becomes  field general despite his primary fame as great fighter, he doesn’t get a chance to shine in songs , and though he proves as capable general his campaign is ultimately blunder.


Jaime similarly gets ambushed by Robb and despite great show in battle cutting down many while trying to face and kill leadership of his foe he gets captured.( similarly Cole challenges leaders of enemy to 3 to 1 fight)

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those quotes are all about Jaime, they have nothing in common with Cole, do they? Cole was never conflicted between any vows, was he? Nor did he ever justify his actions to anyone, explaining he felt, for some strange reasons, that a vow he swore entitled him to betray both his king and the chosen heir of that king.

And Jaime chose to become the Smiling Knight if that's what he became. You don't just *become* someone like that without making crucial and informed choices along the way. I mean, Ser Arthur Dayne never banged his sister, as far as we know, nor did he cuckold the king he was sworn to protect, passing off his bastards as the royal children. Even if we don't raise the issue of the kingslaying Jaime clearly ranks among the worst KG ever. Once he chose to keep his cloak under Robert and Robert married Cersei he should have ended their relationship. But he did not. And the blame there is all his.

First quote is Jaime talking about Cole specifically. We know very little of Sir Coles motivation, since we don’t have his Pov where he makes confessions about it like Jaime does. He did speak his mind on council meeting after the death of VIserys I . 


Quote about Jaime doubting his vows can be linked with him making decision to support other member of Royal family.
Crinston Cole also could have been idealistic young knight at start and various events influenced him becoming one the most infamous Kingsguard in history.

I am not saying if Jaime is good Kingsguard , although he shows some humanity unlike other of the seven.
Making Kingsguard mindless automatons that bow to every decision of potentially horrible kings, I find detestable,  all of the supposedly great Kingsguard of Aerys II stood aside while he killed entire families of Darklyn, raped his wife, and tortured and killed Starks, I don’t doubt if Sir Selmy was in Kings Landing in place of Sir Jaime city would burn. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I have repeatedly laid out how Cole and Littlefinger resemble each other. You seem to focus only on Littlefinger's worst traits, but that's not all that is to him. But then, you seem to be fond of rather superficial comparisons, like men bearing the same title or being, perhaps, of equal strength of arms being alike simply because of that.

Littlefinger has little good traits when you look beyond his surface shine and mask of friendliness, modesty or helpfulness. He is one of main instigator of woes and players of intrigue in recent history.


I’d rather take superficial comparison, than befuddle things with constructions that border on fan fiction.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They have a similar background, a similar desire/love for a woman they have no right to desire or love, and they have a similar ability to make themselves popular (i.e. charisma). They certainly excel at different fields, but the result is the same - they rise to the highest positions at court.

And Cole makes it very clear that he is nearly as perfidious or perhaps even more perfidious than Littlefinger. He came up with the Arryk Cargyll plan, corrupting one of his fellow KG to try to kill the rightful queen, he came up with the dragonrider trap at Rook's Rest. And if Alicent actually murdered Viserys I then Cole would have been part of that, too. He micromanaged/executed the entire Green coup - which is another perfidy in itself.

There is similarly low background with certain differences. He has charisma though we don’t see Cole using it as weapon unlike Littlefinger who besides that uses cunning and his intellect self servingly to detriment of entire Realm.

 He seduces Lysa and uses her as puppet influencing entire war, kills Lord Arryn, gets Harenhall as prize, becomes Lord Protector of Vale,  grooms Sansa for his purposes and plans to use her in many ways despite his supposed “love” toward her mother, corrupts entirety of his underlings as Master of Coin, tries to benefit from hunger of people during the future woes of war and the Winter, his business of brothels and how he treats Jeyne Poole.
Those and many other things differentiate him from Sir Cole.


Plan involving Sir Arryk Cargyll came after the assault on Queen Dovager and Queen Helaena , murder of Young prince Jahaerys and chambermaid, with threats of rape of princess.Sir Arryk also saw firsthand Rhaenyras corruption. It was daring plot and it was to strike the head of snake, with chance of ending the war before it escalated, but ultimately failed and it lacked intricacy of Littlefingers machinations.


Trap at Rook’s Rest can be considered as well conceded military action, if they didn’t have support of Dragons , Rhaenys on Red Queen or other dragon riders would burn them all.


Otto Hightower and members of his house had much more part in executing the coup, Sir Cole and Rhaenyra distanced in 114 ac that is 15 years before the Dance started, he explicitly joined other faction of the court becoming Alicent’s personal shield and lacks showing deviousness. He fought every battle in the field and risked his life in every one, when he faced his death he first asked for fate of his men, I don’t see much evidence of him being like Littlefinger at all besides humble background, green eyes or charm (someone would call that superficial , not I ;).  

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not say that Cole has a thing for pre-adolescent girls. When he made his move - if we follow the Eustace account which I do - Rhaenyra was already a woman grown, and she was fourteen when she supposedly approached Cole as per Mushroom - hardly the time she was still considered a child by Westerosi standards.

He was her sworn shield from age of 7 or something, probably constantly guarding her, so it would make his love interest in her even if she was willing tacky to say the least. In contrast we have evidence of Daemon having thing for deflowering maidens and her children speak of liaison with Strong, while there is very little of factual evidence of Cole’s involvement other than his hatred. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What inconsistencies are you referring here? I think we can reduce Cole to be a jealous and overly-ambitious prick who actually went as low to use the puppet king of his own making just to get back at the woman who spurned him. Because it is rather obvious that crowning Aegon II helped to kill, just as using him as a dragonrider against Rhaenys was not exactly in his best interests. 

That is your opinion about him, though majority of readers  hate him I feel there is too little evidence for that and Your depiction seems more like propagandized caricature than representation of real person though I wouldn't go far to call it superficial. 


In the battle of Rook’s Rest Sir Cole was the bait along with his men, Dragons were hidden in reserve, every battle is risky and he couldn’t foresee the result, he also gave Aemond the crown and said he should lead now until his brother got better, if he wanted to manipulate them he would make different moves and ultimately would have different fate than dying trying to salvage disaster in Riverlands.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, Tyrion's sense of humor is less, well, salacious and ribald than Mushroom's. Mushroom is a little man who greatly extended his own role in his version of the story, Tyrion, on the other hand, never entertained anyone with the size of his member or invented stories how he used that to pleasure or teach Cersei, Sansa, or other great beauties of the court the carnal arts. Not to mention, you know, that Tyrion actually is somebody out of his own right, a nobleman with an actual office at court who openly shaped politics, whereas Mushroom is just a guy who claims to have done stuff like that behind the scenes with nobody ever noticing what was going on.

Not to mention, you know, that Tyrion, while liking to ridicule and humiliate other people, cannot laugh about himself. At least not in public. Laughing about oneself/ridiculing oneself was Mushroom's very job description.

There certainly are some parallels between these two dwarfs, but those are superficial parallels or nods to each other (for instance, Mushroom trying to claim Silverwing and failing certainly could hint at Tyrion trying to claim Viserion and succeeding). But if you analyze Mushroom to get a better understanding of Tyrion's character or vice versa you get nowhere.

Tyrion  unwillingly finds himself in similar role like Mushroom in Essos. We have version of what Mushroom wrote what he said and how he behaved before people who could execute him is different matter. Tyrion has his share of cock jokes unfortunately. 

Spoiler

 

"In my own bed, with a belly full of wine and a maiden's mouth around my cock, at the age of eighty," he replied.


"You need not fear his like, m'lord," the girl said, her fingers busy at his cock. "He is a small man."
"And what am I, pray?" Tyrion asked her. "A giant?"


"Remind me to tell the High Septon," said Tyrion. "If I could pray with my cock, I'd be much more religious." He waved a hand. "I will gladly accept your suggestion."


"Are we playing at riddles now? No."
"He doesn't have a cock."
"Neither do you." And don't you just hate that, Cersei?

"It would not hurt you is what you mean. Though I had as well slice it off for all the use I make of it."
"Feel free. We will have it tanned and stuffed and sell it for a fortune. A dwarf's cock has magical powers."
"I have been telling all the women that for years."

 


I disagree Tyrion had indeed developed  mechanism for dealing ridicule from others.


Let me give you some counsel, bastard. Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.
—Tyrion Lannister”

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just superficial, like citing Mace Tyrell's expertise on mad monarchs to insist there are strong similarities between Aerys II and Daenerys. Rhaenyra is not even remotely like Maegor, nor driven even remotely by similar motives as Cersei. In fact, Rhaenyra is much more similar to Catelyn than Cersei, insofar as the reactions and effects the losses of her children have on her. There is a difference in wanton cruelty and terror (i.e. Maegor) and cruelty and vindictiveness caused by outside pressure and political realities. Rhaenyra was fighting for what was hers by right, and was forced to work with what she had, whereas Maegor was solely motivated by his own petty ambition - and the ambition of his dear mother - to seize what by right should have been the property of the princes he brutally killed

Had Mace ever met Daenerys? Unlike that comparison of Rhaenyra and Cersei comes from her very own brother.

Rhaenyra was awful  and cruel person even before even one of her children died killing Vaemond and feeding him to her dragon,  demanded all of her brothers  be killed even when Seasnake urged different course, constant use of torture, she did put bounty on children’s heads, most of her children actually died for her own horrible decisions.

Maegor’s Teats is how is she is known despite her side “winning”  , her legacy, and She is used as example  when trying to disapprove female elder child inheritance of throne to determent of efficiency of rule in Westeros. 


Comparison  of Rhaenyra and Maegor in cruelty not their motivation is made by people  of Capitol who experienced her rule first hand.Cruelty and vindictiveness may be influenced by other factors though I find those as little excuse. Rhaenyra had many chances to make less cruel or dumb decisions during entirety of her life. 


Little diversion but Maegor and Aenys remind me of  Star Trek episode when Captain Kirk splits in two different characters one meek and indecisive, the other violent and ill tempered   and neither can exist without other. 
 

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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19 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I agree it is much closer parallel to Jaime , especially his chivalrous aspirations ,being Lord Commander of Kingsguard which also commands army in Riverlands , Tyrion/Mushroom similarities and Rhaenyra/Cersei.

Parallels that Varys makes are purely his own construction that have basis in only one side of the story that paints him in worst light. 

The hints to Jaime in Cole's story are constant, the Kingmaker moniker to Jaime's declaration of having made and unmade kings, his murdering Beesbury a nod to Jaime's two monstrosities - slitting Aerys's throat and throwing Bran out the two window, his unceremonious death is a nod to Jaime's hatred of archers.

Cole is an extension to this Jaime theme of judgement. The way GRRM worked it was in the hope that we judge Jaime, as Ned did, then we get his POV and he becomes more understandable and less the villain. The point GRRM is trying to make is that we must be careful to judge with limited information. "By what rights does the wolf judge the lion? - I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act" All that gear. And it goes to legacy, how Jaime will be remembered, what is left to write in that white book.

Why Cole did the things he did we can't know unless we get it from his POV. GRRM probably doesn't even have sorted why Cole did this here or that there, there's not much need, it isn't the point. The point is we can't know so we should be careful to judge.

In the end Jaime is going to end up being like Cole, an enigma to anyone who wasn't there and didn't properly know him, and history and the realm (particularly the new ice eyed Jon) are probably going to judge him far more harshly than he deserves, at least that's the angle GRRM is going to come from, but Jaime's going to know this, and is still going to do what he has to do anyway.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The hints to Jaime in Cole's story are constant, the Kingmaker moniker to Jaime's declaration of having made and unmade kings, his murdering Beesbury a nod to Jaime's two monstrosities - slitting Aerys's throat and throwing Bran out the two window, his unceremonious death is a nod to Jaime's hatred of archers.

Cole is an extension to this Jaime theme of judgement. The way GRRM worked it was in the hope that we judge Jaime, as Ned did, then we get his POV and he becomes more understandable and less the villain. The point GRRM is trying to make is that we must be careful to judge with limited information. "By what rights does the wolf judge the lion? - I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act" All that gear. And it goes to legacy, how Jaime will be remembered, what is left to write in that white book.

Why Cole did the things he did we can't know unless we get it from his POV. GRRM probably doesn't even have sorted why Cole did this here or that there, there's not much need, it isn't the point. The point is we can't know so we should be careful to judge.

In the end Jaime is going to end up being like Cole, an enigma to anyone who wasn't there and didn't properly know him, and history and the realm (particularly the new ice eyed Jon) are probably going to judge him far more harshly than he deserves, at least that's the angle GRRM is going to come from, but Jaime's going to know this, and is still going to do what he has to do anyway.

I again agree. He has most similarities from the characters we meet in Asoiaf, though Sir Barristan or Arys Oakheart have some quotes that link them to the Kingmaker.

Quote

 

Barristan Selmy was not a bookish man, but he had often glanced through the pages of the White Book, where the deeds of his predecessors had been recorded. Some had been heroes, some weaklings, knaves, or cravens. Most were only men - quicker and stronger than most, more skilled with sword and shield, but still prey to pride, ambition, lust, love, anger, jealousy, greed for gold, hunger for power, and all the other failings that afflicted lesser mortals. The best of them overcame their flaws, did their duty, and died with their swords in their hands. The worst...

The worst were those who played the game of thrones.

 

Ser Barristans reputation can't be soiled easily especially since it revolves around events in Essos, he will probably remain as paragon of knighthood in eyes of many in Westeros, while Arys turned to be little more than a pawn and had little impact to the story. 

Edited by Eltharion21

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Cole being a jilted lover makes sense to me.He got turned down by The Princess Of Dragonstone and vowed vengeance.

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Interesting. I had always taken that it was modeled on Cersei and Jaime- she did seduce him, and married Laenor anyway. 

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Just to throw in my two or three cents on the Criston Cole vs. Jaime Lannister thing - I agree with Lord Varys that they are not much alike at all. If anything, their stories can be seen as opposites more often than as parallels.

Just look at their characters. Cole is portrayed as always being a very serious and somber character whereas Jaime doesn't take anything seriously until late in the game. Cole's story is a one of rising to the Kingsguard through his prowess. Jaime's story is one of falling to become Kingsguard - his appointment is seen as a step-down by Tywin. Cole is intensely loyal to Rhaenyra until he's not (possibly because his love is spurned), whereas Jaime is loyal to no one, except perhaps Cersei although he has no problems with unrequited love.

Then we can look at their actions. We don't know Cole's motivations for sure, but we know for a fact that his actions in crowning Aegon starts a war. He soils his vows in doing so. Jaime also soiled his vows when he killed his king. But the action itself is completely different. Cole crowns a king and Jaime kills one. Jaime did so apparently to protect the people of King's Landing from death by wildfire. Whatever Cole's reasons for his actions, all the plausible reasons given are of a personal nature. He's not protecting anyone, only serving his own ambition or desires.

 

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Would you please refrain from calling my queen “slut”.

If her husband was gay and bedding men, she had all the right to have sex with someone else. Perhaps it was an open relationship - for all I know she named one of her sons after her husband’s lover.

I believe that Cole had this incel way of thinking that a woman should be faithful to her vows unless she is willing to break them with him alone... although this would disgust him even more.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

Would you please refrain from calling my queen “slut”.

If her husband was gay and bedding men, she had all the right to have sex with someone else. Perhaps it was an open relationship - for all I know she named one of her sons after her husband’s lover.

I believe that Cole had this incel way of thinking that a woman should be faithful to her vows unless she is willing to break them with him alone... although this would disgust him even more.

Isn't Kingsguard considered to be voluntarily celibate order that is opposite of "incel"  which is by definition involuntarily celibate.

Rhaenyra had affairs with her uncle and Harwyn Strong most likely, which is evident in her progeny, so if there is any evidence of lack of following social norms it is against her not the Kingmaker.

Edited by Eltharion21

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3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Isn't Kingsguard considered to be voluntarily celibate order that is opposite of "incel"  which is by definition involuntarily celibate.

Entry to Kingsguard is supposed to be voluntary, even for Jaime. But celibacy is regarded by many members - surely also by many who don´t violate it - as a string attached to position and honour. I´m sure there are several Kingsguard members who never broke celibacy but who gladly would have received what they thought a legitimate release.

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6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Isn't Kingsguard considered to be voluntarily celibate order that is opposite of "incel"  which is by definition involuntarily celibate.

Rhaenyra had affairs with her uncle and Harwyn Strong most likely, which is evident in her progeny, so if there is any evidence of lack of following social norms it is against her not the Kingmaker.

The incel thinking is that you become a Kingsguard because you don’t believe you have a chance with the queen and then become dismayed that she appears to have sex with anyone but you. LOL 

Also Targaryens do not follow social norms by definition. A ruling person is supposed to produce an heir and she produced like five, great job.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

The incel thinking is that you become a Kingsguard because you don’t believe you have a chance with the queen and then become dismayed that she appears to have sex with anyone but you. LOL 

Also Targaryens do not follow social norms by definition. A ruling person is supposed to produce an heir and she produced like five, great job.

Quote

 

Sir Cole had won melee at tourney for King Viserys I's accession was held at Maidenpool in 104 AC, he e gave the victor's laurel to the seven-year-old Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen, whose favor he wore while unhorsing Daemon in the joust among others, before being unhorsed by Lord Lymond Mallister.

Thereafter, King Viserys indulged Rhaenyra by naming Criston her personal sworn shield. In 105 AC, the twenty-three-year-old Criston became a member of the Kingsguard, taking the place of the legendary Ser Ryam Redwyne

 

 

 

Those are the quotes from the wiki, it is highly doubtful he had any sort of romantic feelings toward the seven year old princess, it seems more like usual trying to get favor from the higher class, also he joined Kingsguard only year later.

If he had any sort of romantic involvement with Rhaenyra it would be much later. Some claim it was reason of " if i gave up my honor for you , and you won't give up your throne for me, so you won't get throne at all", which I disagree but people when they have unfinished story they fill the blanks how they find it acceptable, me included.

By statement in your second paragraph you are basically saying Cersei also had done great job, which isn't correct at all judging by the War of the Five Kings.

Edited by Eltharion21

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