R+L=J v.166

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, corbon said:

Indeed. You are still missing the point though.

I agree that I am missing your point.

16 hours ago, corbon said:

No, it doesn't. The dream never actually goes to Lyanna's bed of blood. As far as Lyanna goes, the dream only includes her supposedly screaming and calling Ned's name as the battle begins - and its clear that that is not actually Lyanna, but Vayon Poole in real life calling Ned to wake him.

Yes the dream does move to Lyanna’s bedside.  By Ned’s description we know the dream includes Lyanna’s bed of blood and when the dream shifts from the battle of the tower of joy we’re with Lyanna and Ned as she elicits the promise from Ned:

Quote

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

”I promise,” he whispered.  “Lya, I promise ... “

Ned is then woken up by Vayon Poole. 

This is how we know that the reader had at some point been taken from Ned’s description of the dream and directly into the dream itself.  The reader is present when Ned is woken from the dream:

Quote

“Lord Eddard,” a man echoed from the dark.
Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.
“Lord Eddard?” A shadow stood over the bed.
“How … how long?” The sheets were tangled, his leg splinted and plastered. A dull throb of pain shot up his side.
“Six days and seven nights.”

So yes, the chapter starts off with Ned describing the dream, but somewhere within the description we’re taken directly into the dream, and remain with the dream until the moment Ned is woken up.

And we still don’t have a confirmation from Ned’s memories that Lyanna’s bed of blood was within the tower long fallen.  We simply know that these two locations are present in Ned’s dream.  Perhaps because the bed of blood was within the tower long fallen, or perhaps because Ned associates something about the battle at the tower long fallen with what he promised to Lyanna at her bed of blood.

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

This is what is so frustrating in discussions with the "canonistas." One not only has to ignore simple straightforward evidence that does state explicitly Lyanna dies at the Tower, but it seems there always includes a complete lack of curiosity on why Ned clearly dreams the two events into one. The combat occurs at the tower of joy, @Feather Crystal's symbolic explanations of it elsewhere excepted, that should be agreed upon by most everyone. Why then does Ned tie Lyanna's death to the same location if her "bed of blood" in fact occurs elsewhere? What is the tie that clearly ties these two events together if it is not that they occur in the same location and are close together in time? What is it that sends Ned and his companions to the Tower of Joy if it is not to get his sister? Why does Ned's dream include these two events together over multiple dreams? Why are the three Kingsguard sitting in the Tower of Joy instead of doing something in the midst of the dying days of the Targaryen dynasty

First I like the word “canonistas”.  

But yes, we should ignore a wiki entry that tells us definitively that Lyanna was at the tower of joy.  GRRM purposely crafted a story without an omniscient narrator to allow for mystery and ambiguity in his story.  Which also allows, no demands, a large chunk of the story to be withheld from the reader. 

I agree that the combat occurred at the tower of joy in the prince’s pass.  I think Ned’s memories certainly confirm that.  However, we’re not given the same confirmation about the location of Lyanna’s death.

I also agree that Ned makes a connection between the battle at the tower of joy with the promise that Lyanna elicits from her on her bed of blood.  But here’s the rub, we can make connections between two events which may occur at different locations and different times.  I think what may tie the two locations together is Jon Snow.  

I’ve gone ad nauseam into my reasons that it makes more sense that Ned traveled to the tower of joy with a small hand picked group of people that he could explicitly trust to rescue Lyanna’s child from the tower as opposed to Lyanna herself.  I also believe that the promise Lyanna elicited from Ned had something to do with Jon.  Hence the tie between the two events.

I understand that you reject this, which is fine.  But it is not accurate to then state that no one has come up with a tie between the two events other than a geographic one.

As for the presence of the Kingsguards, I think I have covered this as well.  I think Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna lay with a child that she could and would bear as opposed to Lyanna herself.  I think he believed that this child somehow tied into his belief of the prince that was promised prophecy.  I think the vow given by the Kingsguards was to carry through Rhaegar’s plans even in the event of Rhaegar’s death.  I believe that Ned could not allow this plan to be carried out, which explains why Ned’s meeting with the Kingsguards was always going to be a battle to the death.

[SirArthur]

On 4/24/2019 at 10:23 AM, corbon said:

Ned starts dreaming, and before we are even taken into the dream Ned recognises this old dream and tells us what it is. This dream, the one we are about to 'witness', is a dream of the knights, the tower and Lyanna's bed of blood. 
Neither Lyanna nor her bed of blood actually appear in the dream, but Ned tells us that just from the instant of the dream starting, he recognises it and knows what i its about. And the key thing its about, the only thing with true emotional resonance in his description of it, is Lyanna in her bed of blood. 

This dream is about Lyanna and her bed of blood, even though she doesn't appear in it.

the dream is in the same amount about white knights, the tower and Lyanna. 

On 4/24/2019 at 10:23 AM, corbon said:

THAT places Lyanna at the tower, even though we don't see her there at all.

I guess we can only agree to disagree here. At the end we can discuss the weight oh each of the three connected parts (the knights, the tower and the damsel in distress), is Lyanna the more important part, are the white knights the connection, are they all together in the dream at the same place and time ?

I however do not see how this "force" places Lyanna at the tower of joy. 

 

edit: as an example, when Ned arrives at King's Landing and finds Jaime on the throne, is that part of Robert's rebellion or not ? I guess we would both say yes, although Robert is not around. 

The same goes here. A promise made to Ned about the tower or the King's Guard still makes her and the promise part of the dream, because it would be about the promise. That does not places her at the tower, but it is about Lyanna's promise, if you want a pun on words, the promise is Lyanna's dream.

[corbon]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that I am missing your point.

Yes the dream does move to Lyanna’s bedside.  By Ned’s description we know the dream includes Lyanna’s bed of blood and when the dream shifts from the battle of the tower of joy we’re with Lyanna and Ned as she elicits the promise from Ned:

That is clearly not actually Lyanna. (Also, further below, there is no scene shift)

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna (1) screaming. "Eddard!" (2) she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard (3)," Lyanna called again.
"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise …"
"Lord Eddard,(4)" a man echoed from the dark (5).
Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.

(1) is the first time Lyanna is mentioned in the dream. I'm not sure if she actually screamed at this point or its the start of the messed up fever part. The one thing we can take away from this is that by inserting her scream here Ned's mind puts her at the location of the fight (I consider this secondary evidence from the dream that she was at the tower, rather than primary), even if she didn't scream as the fighters came together (remember, she's near death, weak from fever, when he finds her).
At (2) I'm not entirely sure from the writing (because they are two separate sentences) whether this is the scream itself (ie Lyanna screamed the word Eddard) or a  separate call after the scream. I think a separate call. I am sure it is not actually Lyanna, though Ned's confused (dreaming, starting to wake as real life intrudes into the dream) mind thinks it is. Lyanna doesn't usually call him Eddard, she calls him Ned (per the conversation at Winterfell about Robert). I believe this is Vayon Poole calling "Lord Eddard", trying to wake Ned, and Ned's mind adding it to the dream part way through. 
(3) is definitely Vayon Poole calling Ned. His dreaming mind is still not quite out of the dream though, so he's still confusing  Vayon with Lyanna.
By (4), his mind has woken up enough to recognise its a mans voice calling him, calling the exact same thing that he's been 'hearing' from Lyanna, even though thats not what Lyanna called him.

I don't see anywhere or any indication that the scene had changed and he's in the tower. It starts with the fight beginning and an outdoor scene and fades to dark (5) with some external dialogue inserting itself into the dream.
Note too, that even in (3), where you assume I think an unindicated scene change at, that we are now at her bed of blood, Lyanna is 'calling', not talking. This part is still 'at the tower' as the fight below starts. Lyanna is not right there with Ned, his mind has her 'calling' from elsewhere (inside the tower while he is outside, starting the fight), same as her supposed scream. Ned whispering back is not part of the recalled dream, but his 'current' response to the feel of Lyanna appealing to him. You don't whisper back to someone who had to call to you. Its not a conversation here.

Further, if we assume that Lyanna was watching the fight start, and screamed at Ned to try to stop the fight, it seems very much to me that she'd call him her usual familiar Ned, rather than the unusual Eddard, and even more odd (for her - she never even knew him as heir, let alone Lord) and formal "Lord Eddard". Its easier and shorter (and she's weak and urgent) and her appeal would be personal and emotional, making the familiar diminutive exactly appropriate. 
So primarily I believe its Vayon the whole time because he's saying the exact same thing the whole time trying to wake Ned by calling "Lord Eddard" and this naturally bleeds into the dream, and secondarily I think this is backed up by how I would expect Lyanna to call for Ned differently if it were her.

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ned is then woken up by Vayon Poole. 

This is how we know that the reader had at some point been taken from Ned’s description of the dream and directly into the dream itself.  The reader is present when Ned is woken from the dream:

So yes, the chapter starts off with Ned describing the dream, but somewhere within the description we’re taken directly into the dream, and remain with the dream until the moment Ned is woken up.

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream (4) his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's 

The underlined is Ned's description of the dream. His title, if that word fits better, because I suspect you are using 'description' in a different way than I am. When I say 'Ned's description of the dream', I mean his initial one -line that tells us what dream this is and what its about. It seems to me that you are reading 'Ned's description of the dream' as Ned's narrative inside the dream, which is a different use of the word description from mine - and probably the chief source of our disconnect.
(4) tells us that we are entering the dream Ned has recognised. From here we are 'inside' the dream. The italics here are now part of the dream, not part of Ned telling us that he recognises this dream and knows what it is about before we even enter it with him.

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And we still don’t have a confirmation from Ned’s memories that Lyanna’s bed of blood was within the tower long fallen.  We simply know that these two locations are present in Ned’s dream.  Perhaps because the bed of blood was within the tower long fallen, or perhaps because Ned associates something about the battle at the tower long fallen with what he promised to Lyanna at her bed of blood.

There are not two locations. We are at (outside) the tower the whole time, there is no scene change, just a fade to black (Vayons last call comes out of the dark) overlaid with dialogue.

48 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

the dream is in the same amount about white knights, the tower and Lyanna. 

Yes, and no. Neither '3 white knights', nor 'a tower long fallen' are truly of emotional relevance. Lyanna and her death is, massively.
I've heard arguments that the knights or the tower are of emotional relevance because Ned lost his friends there, to them, so to speak. But thats not how you describe things (especially internally). If the dream's true relevance was about losing his friends, then Ned would tell us the dream was about losing his friends, not use emotionless markers alone to represent elements of losing his friends. The dream would be about (of) losing his friends, not about 3 white knights and a tower long fallen

The first two are really just markers because in themselves, they aren't important. The third is the true significance of the dream. 
I've been told that this is a thing literarily as well, that the third/last item in a list like this is always the true payoff item.

48 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I guess we can only agree to disagree here. At the end we can discuss the weight oh each of the three connected parts (the knights, the tower and the damsel in distress), is Lyanna the more important part, are the white knights the connection, are they all together in the dream at the same place and time ?

I however do not see how this "force" places Lyanna at the tower of joy. 

This dream is primarily about Lyanna in her bed of blood. Its the only emotional connection in Ned's description of it. It happens at the tower.

If the dream was about two things, something that happened at the tower, and Lyanna's bed of blood somewhere else, then Ned would tell us so in his one-line description or his description doesn't truly fit the dream. He didn't. Its one thing, one dream, one description with a couple of markers and one emotional resonance. This dream, the one with the three white knights and the tower long fallen, is about Lyanna in her bed of blood. Not about 'something else' and then Lyanna in her bed of blood (which we never get to!)

This is reinforced by how Ned's mind filters Vayon trying to wake him into Lyanna, placing her in his mind, if not the actual dream, at the tower. And further, as @Ygrain pointed out, but connecting her appeal to him to promises, which we know he made to her at her bed of blood.

48 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

edit: as an example, when Ned arrives at King's Landing and finds Jaime on the throne, is that part of Robert's rebellion or not ? I guess we would both say yes, although Robert is not around. 

The same goes here. A promise made to Ned about the tower or the King's Guard still makes her and the promise part of the dream, because it would be about the promise. That does not places her at the tower, but it is about Lyanna's promise, if you want a pun on words, the promise is Lyanna's dream.

No, its not the same thing. 
Ned wouldn't describe the whole of Roberts Rebellion as "finding Jaime on the throne".
Yet he describes this dream as primarily about Lyanna's bed of blood, even though we don't actually see that.
The promise part isn't actually part of the dream, its slowly waking Ned responding to the dream.

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/25/2019 at 4:40 PM, corbon said:

That is clearly not actually Lyanna. (Also, further below, there is no scene shift)

(1) is the first time Lyanna is mentioned in the dream. I'm not sure if she actually screamed at this point or its the start of the messed up fever part. The one thing we can take away from this is that by inserting her scream here Ned's mind puts her at the location of the fight (I consider this secondary evidence from the dream that she was at the tower, rather than primary), even if she didn't scream as the fighters came together (remember, she's near death, weak from fever, when he finds her).
At (2) I'm not entirely sure from the writing (because they are two separate sentences) whether this is the scream itself (ie Lyanna screamed the word Eddard) or a  separate call after the scream. I think a separate call. I am sure it is not actually Lyanna, though Ned's confused (dreaming, starting to wake as real life intrudes into the dream) mind thinks it is. Lyanna doesn't usually call him Eddard, she calls him Ned (per the conversation at Winterfell about Robert). I believe this is Vayon Poole calling "Lord Eddard", trying to wake Ned, and Ned's mind adding it to the dream part way through. 
(3) is definitely Vayon Poole calling Ned. His dreaming mind is still not quite out of the dream though, so he's still confusing  Vayon with Lyanna.
By (4), his mind has woken up enough to recognise its a mans voice calling him, calling the exact same thing that he's been 'hearing' from Lyanna, even though thats not what Lyanna called him.

I don't see anywhere or any indication that the scene had changed and he's in the tower. It starts with the fight beginning and an outdoor scene and fades to dark (5) with some external dialogue inserting itself into the dream.
Note too, that even in (3), where you assume I think an unindicated scene change at, that we are now at her bed of blood, Lyanna is 'calling', not talking. This part is still 'at the tower' as the fight below starts. Lyanna is not right there with Ned, his mind has her 'calling' from elsewhere (inside the tower while he is outside, starting the fight), same as her supposed scream. Ned whispering back is not part of the recalled dream, but his 'current' response to the feel of Lyanna appealing to him. You don't whisper back to someone who had to call to you. Its not a conversation here.

Further, if we assume that Lyanna was watching the fight start, and screamed at Ned to try to stop the fight, it seems very much to me that she'd call him her usual familiar Ned, rather than the unusual Eddard, and even more odd (for her - she never even knew him as heir, let alone Lord) and formal "Lord Eddard". Its easier and shorter (and she's weak and urgent) and her appeal would be personal and emotional, making the familiar diminutive exactly appropriate. 
So primarily I believe its Vayon the whole time because he's saying the exact same thing the whole time trying to wake Ned by calling "Lord Eddard" and this naturally bleeds into the dream, and secondarily I think this is backed up by how I would expect Lyanna to call for Ned differently if it were her.

The underlined is Ned's description of the dream. His title, if that word fits better, because I suspect you are using 'description' in a different way than I am. When I say 'Ned's description of the dream', I mean his initial one -line that tells us what dream this is and what its about. It seems to me that you are reading 'Ned's description of the dream' as Ned's narrative inside the dream, which is a different use of the word description from mine - and probably the chief source of our disconnect.
(4) tells us that we are entering the dream Ned has recognised. From here we are 'inside' the dream. The italics here are now part of the dream, not part of Ned telling us that he recognises this dream and knows what it is about before we even enter it with him.

There are not two locations. We are at (outside) the tower the whole time, there is no scene change, just a fade to black (Vayons last call comes out of the dark) overlaid with dialogue.

Yes, and no. Neither '3 white knights', nor 'a tower long fallen' are truly of emotional relevance. Lyanna and her death is, massively.
I've heard arguments that the knights or the tower are of emotional relevance because Ned lost his friends there, to them, so to speak. But thats not how you describe things (especially internally). If the dream's true relevance was about losing his friends, then Ned would tell us the dream was about losing his friends, not use emotionless markers alone to represent elements of losing his friends. The dream would be about (of) losing his friends, not about 3 white knights and a tower long fallen

The first two are really just markers because in themselves, they aren't important. The third is the true significance of the dream. 
I've been told that this is a thing literarily as well, that the third/last item in a list like this is always the true payoff item.

This dream is primarily about Lyanna in her bed of blood. Its the only emotional connection in Ned's description of it. It happens at the tower.

If the dream was about two things, something that happened at the tower, and Lyanna's bed of blood somewhere else, then Ned would tell us so in his one-line description or his description doesn't truly fit the dream. He didn't. Its one thing, one dream, one description with a couple of markers and one emotional resonance. This dream, the one with the three white knights and the tower long fallen, is about Lyanna in her bed of blood. Not about 'something else' and then Lyanna in her bed of blood (which we never get to!)

This is reinforced by how Ned's mind filters Vayon trying to wake him into Lyanna, placing her in his mind, if not the actual dream, at the tower. And further, as @Ygrain pointed out, but connecting her appeal to him to promises, which we know he made to her at her bed of blood.

No, its not the same thing. 
Ned wouldn't describe the whole of Roberts Rebellion as "finding Jaime on the throne".
Yet he describes this dream as primarily about Lyanna's bed of blood, even though we don't actually see that.
The promise part isn't actually part of the dream, its slowly waking Ned responding to the dream.

Um, no, you’re clearly wrong.

The dream shifts from the tower of joy battle to Ned at Lyanna’s bedside where he makes the promise she’s elicited from him.  This is clearly the portion of the dream that Ned describes as Lyanna and her bed of blood.  Poole’s attempt to wake Ned may have intruded upon the dream, but Ned is clearly speaking to Lyanna before he wakes.

The dream consists of two scenes: the confrontation at the tower of joy and then the dream shifts to Lyanna’s bed of blood.  

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Um, no, you’re clearly wrong.

The dream shifts from the tower of joy battle to Ned at Lyanna’s bedside where he makes the promise she’s elicited from him.  This is clearly the portion of the dream that Ned describes as Lyanna and her bed of blood.  Poole’s attempt to wake Ned may have intruded upon the dream, but Ned is clearly speaking to Lyanna before he wakes.

The dream consists of two scenes: the confrontation at the tower of joy and then the dream shifts to Lyanna’s bed of blood.  

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!"  she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. (1)

"Lord Eddard ," Lyanna called again. (2)
"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise …" (3)
"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark. (4)
Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes. Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.

Show it.
(1) is still clearly outside - we have skyview. This is after Lyanna has joined the dream. Its also explicit that her joining the dream is as the fighters came together, so clearly during the out front of the tower scene.
(2) there is no change, Lyanna is still 'calling' so he's not at her bedside
(3) he's whispering, which is not what you do in a bedside conversation with a weak from fever, dying, woman (person), you talk loudly and clearly to make sure your words are getting through (especially if you are alone). There's no indication of any scene change and the whisper doesn't fit with a bed of blood scene. It does fit perfectly with an internal reaction, including Ned using the diminutive while apparently "Lyanna" is using extreme formality.
(4) he's coming out of his dream in his own bed, Vayon's voice in the dark.

If you can interpret this another way, show how, So far you've just made an arbitrary statement without any indication of a rational way to get there from the actual passage. Its not convincing. 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Show it.
(1) is still clearly outside - we have skyview. This is after Lyanna has joined the dream. Its also explicit that her joining the dream is as the fighters came together, so clearly during the out front of the tower scene.
(2) there is no change, Lyanna is still 'calling' so he's not at her bedside
(3) he's whispering, which is not what you do in a bedside conversation with a weak from fever, dying, woman (person), you talk loudly and clearly to make sure your words are getting through (especially if you are alone). There's no indication of any scene change and the whisper doesn't fit with a bed of blood scene. It does fit perfectly with an internal reaction, including Ned using the diminutive while apparently "Lyanna" is using extreme formality.
(4) he's coming out of his dream in his own bed, Vayon's voice in the dark.

If you can interpret this another way, show how, So far you've just made an arbitrary statement without any indication of a rational way to get there from the actual passage. Its not convincing. 

 

 

Ok, I get it, you’re trolling me.  Well played.

[IceFire125]

D&D was on Jimmy Kimmel recently.

Relevant content starts at 1:44 in the video.

 

Jimmy: So we know from the show that's the same Mother from the books that was in the show...

D&D: Yes

 

 

[Ygrain]

Oh, my sweet summer child, don't you know that these two could be lying and that until GRRM himself says it black on white, only then it will be said that he changed his mind, anyway, because fanservice?

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

D&D was on Jimmy Kimmel recently.

Relevant content starts at 1:44 in the video.

 

Jimmy: So we know from the show that's the same Mother from the books that was in the show...

D&D: Yes

 

 

I think most of the serious debate around Jon's parentage has centered on who his father is as opposed to his mother.  And I certainly agree that George is steering us in the direction of Rhaegar, but I think the question remains on whether he is leading us in the right direction or the wrong.

[SirArthur]

@JNR has said for years, that, according to all sources he could find, GRRM asked them about Jon's mother and not about his parents. 

[Ygrain]

Oh, I am quite sure that they figured out the mother correctly and then guessed a wrong father. /end of sarcastic font/

Anyway. When Jon's parentage was "revealed" in the last season, it has become a popular schtick to emphasize "this doesn't confirm anything, the show and the books are two different things". It has also been argued that the fact that the two made a correct guess about Jon's mother in the books doesn't mean they went with the same mother in the show. Well, it has now been confirmed that both the books and the show have Lyanna as Jon's mother, which rules out Ashara, Wylla and FMD for good. If anyone prefers to delude themselves that they chose a different father for Jon than in the books.... be my guest. 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

@JNR has said for years, that, according to all sources he could find, GRRM asked them about Jon's mother and not about his parents.  

That's true, though there are other accounts.  There is the account of Alfie Allen, for instance, who claimed he asked GRRM who Jon's parents were, and was told.

Does that seem probable?  -- that an actor can just ask GRRM "Who are Jon's parents?" and get a straight and complete answer for his trouble?  Or did GRRM tell him half the parents, wink, and let Mr. Allen persuade himself he knew the whole story?  No way to know.

In any case, it remains to be seen how much GRRM told D&D.

We do know he never told them the solutions to other major mysteries, such as the origin of white walkers. 

We know that, factually, because HBO is promoting the prequel show as boasting "the true origin of the white walkers," meaning the comical version given on the current show is not true.

I find that quite interesting... that GRRM obviously never told the show-runners of GOT a hugely important thing like that.  It's almost as if he said to himself, wisely, "George, you might wanna hold back some good stuff for your books."

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, JNR said:

Does that seem probable?  -- that an actor can just ask GRRM "Who are Jon's parents?" and get a straight and complete answer for his trouble?  Or did GRRM tell him half the parents, wink, and let Mr. Allen persuade himself he knew the whole story?  No way to know.

George actually revealed quite some stuff to the people working on the show during the first season. For instance, there is a director who later told him he was rather surprised when George told him 'it was all about Jon and Dany' - which wasn't something he expected from the setup of the characters in the first season.

6 hours ago, JNR said:

We know that, factually, because HBO is promoting the prequel show as boasting "the true origin of the white walkers," meaning the comical version given on the current show is not true.

That sounds like a marketing line. Not to mention that the true story could just be a more complete version with a lot of buildup, etc.

 

[asongofheresy]

On 5/3/2019 at 6:08 PM, IceFire125 said:

D&D was on Jimmy Kimmel recently.

Relevant content starts at 1:44 in the video.

 

Jimmy: So we know from the show that's the same Mother from the books that was in the show...

D&D: Yes

 

 

Lyanna being the mother ≠ Rhaegar being father. Still no solid proof GRRM asked the parents and D&D guessed right. We are told GRRM asked the mother and Lyanna is the correct answer. I am not arguing against it and I think Wylla is just another name for Lyanna as well but there are many candidates as father that works better than Rhaegar. 

[Ygrain]

The show authors guessed the mother right.

- "Doesn't mean it was Lyanna!"

Jon is Lyanna's son.

- "Doesn't mean it's the same in the books!"

Jon's mother is the same in the books and in the show.

- "Doesn't mean Rhaegar is his father!"

...

[JNR]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George actually revealed quite some stuff to the people working on the show during the first season. For instance, there is a director who later told him he was rather surprised when George told him 'it was all about Jon and Dany' - which wasn't something he expected from the setup of the characters in the first season.

The concept that the books are all about Jon and Dany is sufficiently insane, I chuckle just imagining GRRM saying such a thing.  Whatever he said, on whatever topic, it surely wasn't that.

What GRRM has actually said in interviews is that Hollywood people have at various times come to him and tried to make it all about this character, or that character... and he has always resisted that because it defeats the multi-POV structure he so painstakingly implemented in all the canonical books.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

the true story could just be a more complete version with a lot of buildup, etc.

Seriously, now.  You are much too familiar with the canon to believe a thing like that.

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

there are many candidates as father that works better than Rhaegar. 

There's literally four people who can be placed with Lyanna at any point during her captivity, three of whom were in the service of Rhaegar. So no, there's not many candidates, and none that works better than Rhaegar.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

The concept that the books are all about Jon and Dany is sufficiently insane, I chuckle just imagining GRRM saying such a thing.  Whatever he said, on whatever topic, it surely wasn't that.

Well, that's what I read somewhere back when the show people talked about the show revelation of the parentage. It was a season 1 director talking about stuff George said on set during shooting. Back when he was still visiting.

And in the end, Dany and Jon clearly are the main characters of the series. There are other important characters, too, but these two are 'the main main characters', no?

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

What GRRM has actually said in interviews is that Hollywood people have at various times come to him and tried to make it all about this character, or that character... and he has always resisted that because it defeats the multi-POV structure he so painstakingly implemented in all the canonical books.

Sure, but that's about an adaptation solely focusing on one character/story. George's story is definitely an ensemble show - but with Dany and Jon the eventual romantic couple at the center of the story.

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

Seriously, now.  You are much too familiar with the canon to believe a thing like that.

Well, I'm not sure if I'm going to watch some silly show about the Long Night, so you have a point there, but it seems rather obvious that such a show would introduce characters on both sides of the conflict, explain who and why exactly the Others were created, how the war went, etc. Could be that they ignore the GoT nonsense setup for that, but they would not necessarily have to.

[JNR]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And in the end, Dany and Jon clearly are the main characters of the series. There are other important characters, too, but these two are 'the main main characters', no?

There's no way to know for sure, of course.  But I honestly do not think so. 

We have an entire book (AFFC) in which neither one so much as gets a single POV chapter. 

In ASOIAF overall, the character who has received the largest number of POV chapter is... Tyrion, with 49. 

Jon gets 42.  And Dany is well back in the list, with only 31, trailing Arya at 34.

My personal opinion, which I admit is only that, is that GRRM doesn't mean for ASOIAF to have a traditional protagonist at all.  Or if it does, that protagonist is something more abstract, like Westeros. 

As in: "ASOIAF is the story of Westeros at the time leading up to, during, and following the second Long Night."  That, I think, he might get behind as a premise.

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George's story is definitely an ensemble show - but with Dany and Jon the eventual romantic couple at the center of the story.

Maybe. 

If either Dany or Jon is going to pair off with someone permanently... a thing that seems to me by no means certain... I see their becoming a couple as only one possibility and not the strongest at the moment.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

it seems rather obvious that such a show would introduce characters on both sides of the conflict, explain who and why exactly the Others were created, how the war went, etc. Could be that they ignore the GoT nonsense setup for that, but they would not necessarily have to.

This I agree with. 

I just look at what they did on the show and shake my head sadly and find it hard to believe GRRM would cheerfully associate with another show that reiterated it or reinforced it.  And I have read enough of your stuff to know you would have come up with something much better, as would we all have.  It's too bad the show didn't make logic or continuity a priority.