R+L=J v.166

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, The Snow Queen said:

@kissdbyfire I find it fascinating you say this in this thread of all places. The argument you use against Jon/Sansa can be used against R+L=J too. 

How so? Please, enlighten me.

And while you’re at it, please, show me where I said there’s foreshadowing for R+L=J. 

[The Snow Queen]

@kissdbyfire You say that any clues towards Jon and Sansa is invalid because it hasn't happened yet, but can't the same logic be used towards R+L=J too? That hasn't happened yet either. What makes one theory more valid than the other?

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, The Snow Queen said:

@kissdbyfire You say that any clues towards Jon and Sansa is invalid because it hasn't happened yet, but can't the same logic be used towards R+L=J too? That hasn't happened yet either. What makes one theory more valid than the other?

Erhm... I never said that. I was talking about foreshadowing, a word Jonsa fans love throwing around like mad. There is a big difference between foreshadowing and clues. 

[The Snow Queen]

@kissdbyfire Then let me word it better. There are a lot of clues that hint to a possible Jon/Sansa romance.

[divica]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s worse than that... I thought Jonsa was dead and buried now, but apparently there’s gonna be more of that incoming. Until... when? Will we have to wait for ADoS to be rid of the nonsense?

Depending on how the books go it is one marriage alliance that might make sense... If Sansa gains power in the vale and Jon power in the north and if they want to unite the vale and the north and the river lands... 

[SirArthur]

9 hours ago, The Snow Queen said:

@kissdbyfire You say that any clues towards Jon and Sansa is invalid because it hasn't happened yet, but can't the same logic be used towards R+L=J too? That hasn't happened yet either. What makes one theory more valid than the other?

Wait ... there a layers of Jonsa theories all called Jonsa ? And the most simple theory is not a theory but a comment form a book person ? Tell me more.  

There is prob. a better base for Joncat than for Jonsa.

[The Snow Queen]

@SirArthur

You will be surprised at how many clues there are towards Jon and Sansa. Here and here. These are just the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot more hints and I can share more of them if you want. Just say so and I will provide with more. 

[teej6]

2 hours ago, The Snow Queen said:

@SirArthur

You will be surprised at how many clues there are towards Jon and Sansa. Here and here. These are just the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot more hints and I can share more of them if you want. Just say so and I will provide with more. 

This is a pinned thread to discuss R+L=J. If you would like to discuss any of your other theories, please start another thread instead of derailing this one.  

[Ygrain]

32 minutes ago, teej6 said:

This is a pinned thread to discuss R+L=J. If you would like to discuss any of your other theories, please start another thread instead of derailing this one.  

Agreed. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Juligen said:

Spoiler

 

I have to say, one of the most frustrating aspects of season 8 was the fact that R+L=J went nowhere and had no impact in the story, apart from driving Dany crazy. Is that what this amazing secret theory was all about it? just a red herring?

 

I spent years imagining Jon's reaction to this revelation; how does he feels about it? he is not a bastard, he was never a bastard!!!! is he happy? is he confused???? is he sad Ned is not his father??? is he happy Lyanna is his mother???? I wanted to see the Stark sisters reaction to the news; the Lords of the North finding out that Ned was a honorable man. I imagined that Ned may have kept some secret documents inside Lyanna tomb, to prove that Jon was a Targaryen. Are we going to see Howland Reed back at the story? I wanted someone to mention to  Jon to how much Arya looks like Lyanna; I thought the realm would rise and declare Jon to be the rightful heir......

 

errrrr, Nope. Nothing. Nada. Nichts. Niente. We never get to discuss the topic, it was all about how this made Daenerys feel about it; how it made her insecure; how it made her afraid to lose the fucking Throne; how it made her jealous; how it made her claim weaker; how it made her relationship with Jon colder ............................gasp.

 

The more I think about this, the more it hurts. It fucking hurts!!! Is that how George will approach this story?? how it affects Daenerys??? shruggs.......... "give me something for my pain and let me die"

 

In another note, this stoyline did prove to me that anything that touches Daenerys Targaryen storyline dies in the most painful and miserable way; every character that gets near becomes a secondary useless character. I guess, its nice to be right about soemething

 

 

This is a book forum, we are not supposed to discuss the show openly here. Put your post in the spoiler tags.

- That said, I wholeheartedly agree that

Spoiler

RLJ was absolutely futile in the show. Dany's paranoia about it was just one of many aspects that supposedly made her go mad; Jon didn't seem overly broken over having to break up with her, didn't seem to suffer any existential crisis over it; Varys' attempt to use it for scheming led to nothing. Wow. A totally useless, underwhelming revelation.

 

[Azarial]

What story reasons beyond ruling, or making a claim would make RLJ have a strong narrative purpose? We see hints of his berserker strength, and see him have a rage where he doesn't seem to be in control of his body, or even be aware of what he's doing, that does seem linked to Visery's description of waking the dragon (Not that he seems knowledgeable on much, since he also told Dany they were immune to disease etc). 

Jon has prophetic dreams, some that seem to line up with some of Dany's dreams and HoU visions, like his dream of his lover (Ygritte is the representation in the dream) having her flesh melt and fall of her bones in his arms, and Dany having the dream of the black dragon breathing fire, burning her flesh off and scouring her clean making her stronger, seem to be two versions of the same thing. Tyrion sees dragons wheeling across the sky, Jon sees them coiling against a dark sky outlined in flame, Dany sees them cartwheeling I believe (so many dragon mentions in her chapters it's difficult to find the quote) There must be a reason for this right?

I just think RLJ must be linked to the magic elements in some way, more so than the political elements since the magic elements are, and have always been, at the heart of Jon's story. Normally paired with him being taught that thrones are meaningless when facing a magical threat. His only political acumen seems linked to alliance building, and peace pacts, but those tend to be helped along by Ghosts actions and presence, so are still linked to the magic side of things. Our very first introduction to him, with the finding of the wolves makes his strong magical link clear by him being the first to establish a mental link to a wolf, and him being able to connect with Ghost wile fully awake, and conscious as shown by them reuniting in Dance. We know he can keep tabs on all the Starks through their wolves (and is the only one shown to do this) and talks to Bran when they are on opposite sides of the wall.

Starks can withstand more cold than other people. Targaryens can withstand more heat than others. So I guess he can handle extreme conditions well?

I just can't figure out how this all ties together, but know that it must.

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, Azarial said:

We see hints of his berserker strength, and see him have a rage where he doesn't seem to be in control of his body, or even be aware of what he's doing, that does seem linked to Visery's description of waking the dragon

More plausibly explained by his being warged by Ghost 

[Azarial]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

More plausibly explained by his being warged by Ghost 

Except this is when they were on opposite sides of the wall, and their connection blocked. Ghost returned when Jon went north of the wall after this, and the connection wasn't restored until he was well clear of the wall. The only linking from other sides of the wall involves Bran, as his powers don't seem to be impacted by the wall, but Jon's do. I think this was deliberate to show that it wasn't linked to Ghost.

[SirArthur]

On 5/26/2019 at 1:57 PM, The Snow Queen said:

@SirArthur

Here 

I guess it'as not that important, if public doesn't have permission to read it. 

 

@berserker strength: as far as I can tell, Viserys' "waking the dragon" was always about getting angry and abusive, never about berserker powers

[The Snow Queen]

@SirArthur Yeah, the thread was shut down after I put the link. If you want I can DM you some posts that support Jonsa. Just let me know and I will send them. 

@Azarial I disagree. R+L=J is more likely to impact the political side of ASOIAF rather than the magical one.

[Azarial]

17 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I guess it'as not that important, if public doesn't have permission to read it. 

 

@berserker strength: as far as I can tell, Viserys' "waking the dragon" was always about getting angry and abusive, never about berserker powers

I always took it as Visery's didn't have these abilities, but had heard about anger waking power in Targaryen's and as a result acted abusive to make it seem as though he may have these powers appear if the right circumstance happened, or maybe he really believed if he got angry enough it would happen. He never understands things correctly, this is the guy that told Dany that Trargaryens were immune to disease for example, something we all know is false, a higher resistance maybe but not immune. So I never took his abusive nature to mean that the waking the dragon was linked to being abusive, or angry in a negative way as he always gets a tiny bit right, and whole lot wrong in his interpretation of things.

13 hours ago, The Snow Queen said:

@SirArthur Yeah, the thread was shut down after I put the link. If you want I can DM you some posts that support Jonsa. Just let me know and I will send them. 

@Azarial I disagree. R+L=J is more likely to impact the political side of ASOIAF rather than the magical one.

I think it's both, but more so magic. I could be wrong, but he is the one who saw the magical significance of the wolves, by their numbers and genders and convinced Ned to let them keep them. His first kill was against a wight. He thinks about how taking his vows at the heart tree seems to have a magical impact on him. Even his compulsive flexing of his burned hand when angry seems linked to the magic side. I'm not saying there would be no political impact from RLJ, that would be silly. I just am wondering what his combined heritage may mean for the magic side, and the battle against the Others and the Long Night since his whole arc is revolving around the North, and far north. Any impact of a political nature is a long way off compared to any magical impacts of his heritage in my opinion, and I don't see it discussed as much, and am genuinely curious what things others have noticed about him, or the Starks, or the Targaryens, or even Bloodraven, that may give us some clues as to his potential in this area.

[Br16]

Responding to the book possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married somehow:

Royal assent seems to be a big part of whether royal marriages are valid or not (like Harry needing the Queen's permission to marry Meghan), considering that Aerys II and his Small Council were not informed by Rhaegar of this unconventional secret marriage, I feel that Jon Snow 's claim to the Iron Throne is very shaky. If Aerys had okayed it then Jon would be in line after Elia's son. After all, the King is the law.

I feel that this fact is the biggest problem affecting Jon's claim since all the other controversial aspects (such as polygamy) could be overridden by Targaryen power, but the Sovereign's consent is something so fundamental in a monarchy not even the Crown Prince could cast it aside, and no Sovereign or allow to be flouted. 

[SFDanny]

24 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Responding to the book possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married somehow:

Royal assent seems to be a big part of whether royal marriages are valid or not (like Harry needing the Queen's permission to marry Meghan), considering that Aerys II and his Small Council were not informed by Rhaegar of this unconventional secret marriage, I feel that Jon Snow 's claim to the Iron Throne is very shaky. If Aerys had okayed it then Jon would be in line after Elia's son. After all, the King is the law.

I feel that this fact is the biggest problem affecting Jon's claim since all the other controversial aspects (such as polygamy) could be overridden by Targaryen power, but the Sovereign's consent is something so fundamental in a monarchy not even the Crown Prince could cast it aside, and no Sovereign or allow to be flouted. 

It appears that Rhaegar plans on overcoming the problem of "royal assent" by becoming king himself. Of course his plan doesn't work out. Had he succeeded at the Trident - a narrow miss - he would have had a victory over the rebels and a victorious army at his back if he wish to have Aerys abdicate and leave the throne to him. As it happens, not only does Rhaegar die at the Ruby Ford, but his plan for the succession does as well. Viserys is named as the  new heir to Aerys, and given that Viserys does claim his father's rule if in name only it allows for Viserys to name Daenerys as his heir.  Legally the Targaryen claim to the throne becomes a mess with Daenerys, Aegon VI (young Griff) or Jon all having a claim to the throne, depending on whose story you believe.

[Br16]

19 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

It appears that Rhaegar plans on overcoming the problem of "royal assent" by becoming king himself. Of course his plan doesn't work out. Had he succeeded at the Trident - a narrow miss - he would have had a victory over the rebels and a victorious army at his back if he wish to have Aerys abdicate and leave the throne to him. As it happens, not only does Rhaegar die at the Ruby Ford, but his plan for the succession does as well. Viserys is named as the  new heir to Aerys, and given that Viserys does claim his father's rule if in name only it allows for Viserys to name Daenerys as his heir.  Legally the Targaryen claim to the throne becomes a mess with Daenerys, Aegon VI (young Griff) or Jon all having a claim to the throne, depending on whose story you believe.

Good point, I really like how GRRM has set this succession plot to be the ultimate gray dilemma, especially considering the theories asserting that Young griff is actually an imposter or Illyrio's Blackfyre related son. The fun fact is that by quirk of circumstances, Daenerys may actually be the first woman to claim the Iron Throne without being in violation of House Targaryen's ultra male preference succession laws.

[St Daga]

On 5/27/2019 at 11:30 AM, Azarial said:

What story reasons beyond ruling, or making a claim would make RLJ have a strong narrative purpose? We see hints of his berserker strength, and see him have a rage where he doesn't seem to be in control of his body, or even be aware of what he's doing, that does seem linked to Visery's description of waking the dragon (Not that he seems knowledgeable on much, since he also told Dany they were immune to disease etc). 

This could also be the "wolf blood" in him, something Ned noted in Brandon and Lyanna's personalities, and also noticed in Arya to some extent. We twice hear of Brandon's "fierce" reactions to something he did not like, and while we don't know about how that rage effected strength, most people who have a rush of adrenaline also have a rush of great strength.

On 5/27/2019 at 11:30 AM, Azarial said:

Jon has prophetic dreams, some that seem to line up with some of Dany's dreams and HoU visions, like his dream of his lover (Ygritte is the representation in the dream) having her flesh melt and fall of her bones in his arms, and Dany having the dream of the black dragon breathing fire, burning her flesh off and scouring her clean making her stronger, seem to be two versions of the same thing. Tyrion sees dragons wheeling across the sky, Jon sees them coiling against a dark sky outlined in flame, Dany sees them cartwheeling I believe (so many dragon mentions in her chapters it's difficult to find the quote) There must be a reason for this right?

Ned also has dreams of the crypts. We don't know them in great detail but we know they exist. He refers to the "frozen hell" reserved for the Stark's of Winterfell (the crypts),as well as dreams of "snow and the quiet of the wolfswood", "old dreams" that leave him "weak as a kitten", "dark, disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises", as well as dreams we are not given the details of that occur both in the barrowlands and in Kings Landing that leave him unsettled or unrested. These could also be prophetic dreams, and dreaming is certainly not exclusive to Targaryen's.

On 5/27/2019 at 11:30 AM, Azarial said:

Starks can withstand more cold than other people. Targaryens can withstand more heat than others. So I guess he can handle extreme conditions well?

Jon certainly seems to be affected quite significantly to his burns from fighting Othor the Wight. Something we do not see in Dany, even when she has burns on her hands after riding Drogon out of the fighting pits in Meereen. 

On 5/27/2019 at 11:55 AM, Azarial said:

On 5/27/2019 at 11:44 AM, Black Crow said:

More plausibly explained by his being warged by Ghost 

Except this is when they were on opposite sides of the wall, and their connection blocked. Ghost returned when Jon went north of the wall after this, and the connection wasn't restored until he was well clear of the wall. The only linking from other sides of the wall involves Bran, as his powers don't seem to be impacted by the wall, but Jon's do. I think this was deliberate to show that it wasn't linked to Ghost.

Of course, this idea is based on a theory that the wall blocks warg activity, which might not be the case. We have an example of Bran being able to communicate with both Ghost and Jon in a dream, while Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell and Jon is ranging in the Frostfangs, so the wall didn't stop that, nor does the wall seem to stop Bloodraven from sending dreams to people south of the wall.

As to Jon's "berserker" moments, the first time Jon has a bout of "berserker" rage and strength is at Castle Black against Ser Aliser, and Ghost might not be in the scene, but he is certainly near. The second time is when Jon beats the tar out of Iron Emmett. Ghost is on the opposite side of the wall, but he is very close at this time, and only a few pages later, is reunited with Jon. Jon senses him well before he sees him, which might be a hint that Ghost was calling to Jon during the incident with Iron Emmett. The interesting thing about these two moments, at least to me, is that they are triggered by concerns that affect Jon's Stark feelings. The first is in response to Ser Aliser calling Ned a traitor and the second is the memory of Robb saying his mother said that Jon cannot have Winterfell because of his bastard birth. It "Stark issues" that ignite this defensive rage in Jon Snow! Maybe this is an issue of "Waking the Wolf" within Jon?