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SFDanny

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There is a rather obvious thing what makes Howland Reed truly important for the plot and any mysteries at the core of the series - and that's his time on the Isle of Faces with the Green Men. That is something that is actually significant.

The parentage of a single character in a series with hundreds of characters shouldn't have much impact on the overall plot.

It is the case that people make a lot about this 'mystery' and it was one of the main drivers of fan discussion from the start. But that is mostly because Jon is that motherless main character and one wants to know the story behind his birth.

If we imagined for a moment just 'some woman' and Ned were Jon's parents then his story could play out exactly the same it will in the story because Jon definitely is a character who is at the right place at the right time.

I'd not hold my breath that Howland Reed is going to involve himself in petty northern squabbles. Yes, Hallis Mollen, Ned's remains, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, and Robb's will might resurface in TWoW - but Howland Reed is likely going to remain where he is. If he wanted to involve himself in petty matters he could have done that a long time ago. But if he came out - and George actually wants to use the 'Robb's will' plot in any way, then Howland has to remain silent about Jon's actual parentage or else said will (assuming it concerns Jon in a meaningful degree which is in doubt since George himself has made clear we should not presume to know its contents while he hasn't yet given them) is going to name an heir - Eddard Stark's bastard son - who simply does not exist.

In that sense I'd say Howland could become a character who talks to Jon about his parents after somebody else opened that can of worms, helping him to understand Lya and Rhaegar better and all that ... but I don't see him approaching Jon about that at all.

If that had been the plan then Jojen and Meera (who also seem to know the truth) certainly would have taken steps to inform Jon while they were at Winterfell (via a letter) or during their journey to the cave. Instead, telling the truth to Jon is a completely non-issue for the Reeds so far ... instead, they seem to believe that the Starks should know this story already.

And it is not that there aren't plenty of people who know or could figure it out - Bran will learn the truth soon enough, Melisandre could have a vision about that thing, too, the Daynes and Wylla are still out there who know stuff, too, and there is, of course, Benjen Stark, who is still on the loose. And there might be others who know pieces of the puzzle, allowing people close to Jon to figure it out and tell him. Howland Reed is in no way necessary for this particular mystery ... he is just a character from AGoT who most definitely knows a pretty big chunk of the story.

3 hours ago, zoenerys said:

For some reason I fully expect Jon to have a total mental breakdown over finding out that he is not Ned's son. Being Ned's son is everything to Jon. His whole identity is based on Ned. He practically worships him as his only parent and source of a home and caring. To know that he had been lied to by him will be tough to accept. I think he will at first deny this all as being some kind of elaborate hoax or ruse. I can imagine him accepting Lyanna as his mother easily (as he'd never had one, and she fits who his mother had been in his hopes/dreams) but Rhaegar as his father over Ned?? No, unthinkable! 

I've long being saying that this would cause an identity crisis in Jon, causing him to wallow some more in self-pity. The original reaction should be to reject such a ridiculous cock-and-bull story from a soap opera. Why he would want to believe this - or why anyone should - I also have trouble imagining. If he does believe it, I think it is going to cause a considerable rift between him and the Starks. One can excuse the lies as Ned protecting his nephew, but that carries only to a certain point.

Anyone in Jon's shoes (i.e. a realistically written Jon Snow) would have wanted to know the truth about himself before he took the black. And Eddard Stark never gave him that truth to make an informed choice. That was a betrayal. It might be that Jon ends up forgiving his late foster father, but that would depend on whether he actually believed he was in great danger - not to mention that it would also, to no small degree, hinge on Ned's reasons not to tell Jon later. Reasons we the readers might get from Ned's own lips via Bran's visions - did Ned keep the truth from Jon simply to protect him? Or was it also rather convenient for him after he had started to live the lie? Did he, perhaps, want to prevent Jon from knowing who he was because he didn't want Jon to search out his uncle and aunt in Essos to join Viserys III in a campaign to retake the Iron Throne?

If Jon knew who he was the very framework and the values of the society he lived in would have demanded that he avenge his lord father and royal grandfather and right the wrongs done to his family. Not to mention that Jon would also have had the risk to demand that his uncle Eddard choose between him, Rhaegar Targaryen's son, and his dear friend Robert the Usurper. Lya chose Rhaegar, Ned chose Robert. Who would Ned choose if he had to choose a second time between Robert and Lyanna's son?

Blood should be more important than friendship ... and thus it could have been very convenient for Ned if Jon never learned who he actually was so that no one in House Stark had ever to make such a choice again.

And then there is also Jon's resentment of being raised as a bastard. He hated that, and he will be really angry should he ever realize that his life sucked as hard as it did because his uncle didn't have the guts to tell the truth.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Anyone in Jon's shoes (i.e. a realistically written Jon Snow) would have wanted to know the truth about himself before he took the black. And Eddard Stark never gave him that truth to make an informed choice. That was a betrayal. It might be that Jon ends up forgiving his late foster father, but that would depend on whether he actually believed he was in great danger - not to mention that it would also, to no small degree, hinge on Ned's reasons not to tell Jon later. Reasons we the readers might get from Ned's own lips via Bran's visions - did Ned keep the truth from Jon simply to protect him? Or was it also rather convenient for him after he had started to live the lie? Did he, perhaps, want to prevent Jon from knowing who he was because he didn't want Jon to search out his uncle and aunt in Essos to join Viserys III in a campaign to retake the Iron Throne?

If Jon knew who he was the very framework and the values of the society he lived in would have demanded that he avenge his lord father and royal grandfather and right the wrongs done to his family. Not to mention that Jon would also have had the risk to demand that his uncle Eddard choose between him, Rhaegar Targaryen's son, and his dear friend Robert the Usurper. Lya chose Rhaegar, Ned chose Robert. Who would Ned choose if he had to choose a second time between Robert and Lyanna's son?

Blood should be more important than friendship ... and thus it could have been very convenient for Ned if Jon never learned who he actually was so that no one in House Stark had ever to make such a choice again.

And then there is also Jon's resentment of being raised as a bastard. He hated that, and he will be really angry should he ever realize that his life sucked as hard as it did because his uncle didn't have the guts to tell the truth.

I disagree with a couple things here. One is that there was no danger. The books are very clear that while Ned was alive, there was definitely a danger via Robert, Tywin (especially), Varys, etc. Now if Jon would perceive any danger to himself is a different story. I have no idea if he knows the story of Rhaegar's oldest children or not, I doubt Ned told him this story. Which means that he has no context for why Ned would go so far in lying to everyone. I can see that being a big problem for him.

The second thing is, that Ned would not defend Jon over Robert. We see Ned defend Dany over getting killed, but he will not defend Jon, who he loves? That just doesn't fit with what we know of Ned. Ned sacrificed himself so Sansa and Arya would live, he would do the same for Jon, there's no doubt in my mind. 

I don't see why he would blame the other Starks, they have nothing to do with any of that. 

Ned not telling Jon before he joined the NW was wrong, but we have to remember that Robert and co were literally in the same roof!  There were loads of strangers all around Winterfell. An armed hanger-on literally tried to murder Bran! Telling him while Robert is within arms reach of Jon, with Cersei also there, with no privacy, is not possible either. It was a tough spot, but remember Ned doesn't know he's going to die, either. 

I will say that Ned's handling of the NW situation about Jon was a big parenting screw up of him, but to say that he did it for some nefarious reason is absurd. When it comes to the issue of his kids' future, Ned was consistent in that he did not think about it at all. He was shocked that Robert wanted to betroth Joffrey to Sansa. He also shows a trait in wanting to let his kids do what they want. We see this with Arya's Syrio lesson, Bran's climbing, Sansa going to the tourney, and, yes, Jon going to the Night's Watch. Ned buried his head in the sand with this issue, but that doesn't mean that he did not love him. Ned sacrificed so much out of love for Jon. 

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11 minutes ago, zoenerys said:

I will say that Ned's handling of the NW situation about Jon was a big parenting screw up of him

Never saw it that way, Ned simply had a very different notion of what the watch meant.  Nor was Jon forced to stay. He did not want to be anywhere  near Cat, so Winterfell was not an option and King's Landing is a viper nest  so it didn't seem a fine choice either. I think that the wall was the best thing for him.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And then there is also Jon's resentment of being raised as a bastard. He hated that, and he will be really angry should he ever realize that his life sucked as hard as it did because his uncle didn't have the guts to tell the truth.

The most likely option is that he is a bastard regardless so he was going to grow as a belithed Prince bastard besides the huge target in his back. I could see angsty 14 years old Jon reacting like that, ADWD was far more mature than that however.

 

 

 

 

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When Ned allows Jon to go to the Night's Watch Jon is fourteen years old and he has Benjen there with him. Ned has effectively delayed any decision about Jon for a year or so. That Benjen gets lost on a ranging is not something anyone could have forecast. Nor is Ned's own fate. But Ned has to do something about Jon and bringing him to King's Landing to be subject of speculation from Robert, the Lannisters, Varys, Littlefinger, et al is not an option for Lord Eddard. The danger is too great. 

Nor can he leave Jon at Winterfell with Catelyn who has made it clear she doesn't want him. For Ned he has to find a place Jon can remain hidden, and under Benjen's care is likely the best option. Or which Lord would he entrust his sister's secret son without putting him in an effective hostage situation at worst, or at best someone who hasn't a clue of the danger facing him.

Whether Benjen knows the truth or not - I suspects he has figured it out - he is a much better choice to ensure Jon's safety. Bad parenting? Not so much when the alternatives could include death. Ned has promises to keep he gave his sister on her deathbed, and I'm willing the bet those include hiding Jon's identity and keeping him out of the hands of Robert Baratheon.

Of course, the choice Ned makes to delay any long term solution while Jon grows up doesn't turn out too well. Or perhaps it turns out better than Ned could have foreseen.

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31 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

When Ned allows Jon to go to the Night's Watch Jon is fourteen years old and he has Benjen there with him. Ned has effectively delayed any decision about Jon for a year or so. That Benjen gets lost on a ranging is not something anyone could have forecast. Nor is Ned's own fate. But Ned has to do something about Jon and bringing him to King's Landing to be subject of speculation from Robert, the Lannisters, Varys, Littlefinger, et al is not an option for Lord Eddard. The danger is too great. 

Nor can he leave Jon at Winterfell with Catelyn who has made it clear she doesn't want him. For Ned he has to find a place Jon can remain hidden, and under Benjen's care is likely the best option. Or which Lord would he entrust his sister's secret son without putting him in an effective hostage situation at worst, or at best someone who hasn't a clue of the danger facing him.

Whether Benjen knows the truth or not - I suspects he has figured it out - he is a much better choice to ensure Jon's safety. Bad parenting? Not so much when the alternatives could include death. Ned has promises to keep he gave his sister on her deathbed, and I'm willing the bet those include hiding Jon's identity and keeping him out of the hands of Robert Baratheon.

Of course, the choice Ned makes to delay any long term solution while Jon grows up doesn't turn out too well. Or perhaps it turns out better than Ned could have foreseen.

Agreed. Also, I don't think we should forget Jon asked to go to the NW. The decision was still ultimately up to Ned but he may have found something else to do with Jon, had Jon not wanted to go. 

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

Never saw it that way, Ned simply had a very different notion of what the watch meant.  Nor was Jon forced to stay. He did not want to be anywhere  near Cat, so Winterfell was not an option and King's Landing is a viper nest  so it didn't seem a fine choice either. I think that the wall was the best thing for him.

 

 

I think that not telling Jon about how the night's watch was, or that it didn't have to be permanent, and that he was welcome to come back, was definitely a screw up. He didn't talk about it with Jon at all AFAIK. Jon was really upset that Ned let him go, Bran even mentions that Jon was upset, even though he has no clue why. Jon was really hurt by this. 

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1 hour ago, zoenerys said:

I think that not telling Jon about how the night's watch was, or that it didn't have to be permanent, and that he was welcome to come back, was definitely a screw up. He didn't talk about it with Jon at all AFAIK. Jon was really upset that Ned let him go, Bran even mentions that Jon was upset, even though he has no clue why. Jon was really hurt by this. 

And how he could tell him if he himself has a distorted vision of what the Watch is?? It's not like Jon's uncle did not try to warn him and was ignored or Jon did not consciously make the decision of staying over retutning back to Cat's. 

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1 hour ago, zoenerys said:

I think that not telling Jon about how the night's watch was, or that it didn't have to be permanent, and that he was welcome to come back, was definitely a screw up. He didn't talk about it with Jon at all AFAIK. Jon was really upset that Ned let him go, Bran even mentions that Jon was upset, even though he has no clue why. Jon was really hurt by this. 

Ned doesn't  tell Jon he has to stay with the Night's Watch, of course. Which means that before Jon takes his vows he is free to do as he wants. Benjen is supposed to be back well before Jon was to do so. That tells me that Benjen may have had something to say about when or if Jon said those vows. He is, after all, not only Jon's uncle, but the First Ranger of the Watch. So, as far as Ned knows when Jon leaves with Benjen there is a year to a year and a half before Jon turns sixteen and can decide what to do, and you can't find a much better place to hide some one from prying eyes. I'm not sure the plan was a screw up. I think the events that happen may have short circuited the plan.

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed. Also, I don't think we should forget Jon asked to go to the NW. The decision was still ultimately up to Ned but he may have found something else to do with Jon, had Jon not wanted to go. 

We agree here, but when thinking of those alternatives to where Jon might go, I can think of some fairly awful Northern Houses he could be shipped off to. The Bolton's? The Karstarks? Now the Mountain Clans would be interesting. So too with the Royces in the Vale. Probably too close to Lysa and King's Landing both.

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7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We agree here, but when thinking of those alternatives to where Jon might go, I can think of some fairly awful Northern Houses he could be shipped off to. The Bolton's? The Karstarks? Now the Mountain Clans would be interesting. So too with the Royces in the Vale. Probably too close to Lysa and King's Landing both.

He could have easily sent him to the Cerwyns. I think as far as solutions to what to do with Jon, that may have been the easiest and simplest one. Jon and Cley (along with Robb) were friends. The castle is half a day's ride from Winterfell, which means Jon could have visited his brothers any time he wanted and vice versa. But Jonelle Cerwyn is exactly Lyanna's age, so that could have been a non-starter.

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12 hours ago, zoenerys said:

I disagree with a couple things here. One is that there was no danger. The books are very clear that while Ned was alive, there was definitely a danger via Robert, Tywin (especially), Varys, etc. Now if Jon would perceive any danger to himself is a different story. I have no idea if he knows the story of Rhaegar's oldest children or not, I doubt Ned told him this story. Which means that he has no context for why Ned would go so far in lying to everyone. I can see that being a big problem for him.

It is no way clear that Jon Snow as Jon Snow was in any particular danger. Let's imagine Ned makes Jon officially acknowledges Jon as his bastard but informally tells his family that he is actually his nephew ... Even if that somehow got out - which would have been a very big if - if Ned publicly denied that, Jon would never publicly be seen as Rhaegar's son.

It would be the word of the honorable Lord of Winterfell against some vile rumor. It is like saying the vile rumor that the king's children were actually Jaime's or the rumor that Aenys Targaryen or Rhaenyra's children were not the children of their fathers made all of Westeros believe that. You could also take the story about Ossifer Plumm as an example. Rumors and stories are meaningless unless they are backed by people with power.

And while there were still real Targaryens out there - Targaryens looking the part who weren't the very image of Eddard Stark - nobody would give a fig about a bastard who might be Rhaegar's son.

As for Robert himself: If he were to want to move against Eddard Stark's son - a boy Ned raised at Winterfell and had under his protection - he would have to be prepared to wage a war against the North. If the tried to do that Ned might be able to set himself at the head of a Targaryen restoration movement because his natural allies in a fight against a Robert demanding the death of Jon Snow would be the remaining Targaryen loyalists in Westeros.

And one must not forget that Ned is the one with marriage ties to both the Tullys of Riverrun and the Arryns of the Vale. Hoster and his family likely would stand with Ned rather than Robert in this, and Jon Arryn would have to make a choice, too. Even if Jon Arryn didn't decide to fight with Ned, chances are he would not exactly (wholeheartedly) support Robert on a quest to murder Ned's son-nephew.

Do we really believe anyone would have believed Robert would start another civil war - which could very well destroy him and his entire family - just to murder a child his best friend raised as his son? I don't think so.

One can make a strong case that Robert may have murdered or allowed the murder of an infant child of Rhaegar's - as he did with Elia's children. But once Ned transformed this child successfully into his bastard son, branding it not as a royal child but a child born out of lust and out of wedlock, it would be very difficult to restore it to a princely status.

12 hours ago, zoenerys said:

The second thing is, that Ned would not defend Jon over Robert. We see Ned defend Dany over getting killed, but he will not defend Jon, who he loves? That just doesn't fit with what we know of Ned. Ned sacrificed himself so Sansa and Arya would live, he would do the same for Jon, there's no doubt in my mind.

Sure, but that goes only for the boy Jon Snow, his son. I was thinking about the Prince X Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, who might be intent to challenge the usurper Robert Baratheon either in his own right or in the name of his uncle, King Viserys III Targaryen, expecting that the might of House Stark and all the North would support his cause.

This, I think, is a choice Ned was not willing to make. And the best way to prevent that was to never tell Jon the truth at all.

I mean, ask yourself what you as Jon Snow would have done if Ned had told you the truth at some point in your later teens. What would you have urged Robb to do after Robert's death and with Joffrey (whom you both loathed) on the Iron Throne? What would Robb have wanted to do given how close he and Jon were?

Ned was Robert's friend, not Robb nor Jon. And Joffrey and the Lannisters they all loathed.

If Jon and Ned's family had known the truth, Ned had been killed in KL, and the Targaryens had invaded with the Dothraki, Robb and Jon would have joined them.

12 hours ago, zoenerys said:

I don't see why he would blame the other Starks, they have nothing to do with any of that. 

Not the Starks as individuals, House Stark. He will feel betrayed by Ned and will realize that his identity was stolen. Of course his feelings for Arya, Bran, Rickon, and whatever he felt for Sansa won't disappear. But he will realize he had had another family which was kept from him by his mother's family, a family who would have been in dire need of his support (and might still be in need of this support when he learns the truth), a support and help he was never able to offer thanks to Ned's lies.

That is a realistic take on such a situation. Just imagine how you might feel if you figure out that your dear father made you into his very own Cinderella when in truth you are a prince and could even try to be your father's king.

12 hours ago, zoenerys said:

Ned not telling Jon before he joined the NW was wrong, but we have to remember that Robert and co were literally in the same roof!  There were loads of strangers all around Winterfell. An armed hanger-on literally tried to murder Bran! Telling him while Robert is within arms reach of Jon, with Cersei also there, with no privacy, is not possible either. It was a tough spot, but remember Ned doesn't know he's going to die, either.

That is not a bad point, but one that could worked around rather easily - by them being quiet about it, for one. If Ned feared Jon could not be told with Robert around he could at least have told Cat in private - who would then have abandoned the idea to force Jon to take the black. That would have solved the problem for the time being and they could have later decided when and if to tell Jon.

12 hours ago, zoenerys said:

I will say that Ned's handling of the NW situation about Jon was a big parenting screw up of him, but to say that he did it for some nefarious reason is absurd. When it comes to the issue of his kids' future, Ned was consistent in that he did not think about it at all. He was shocked that Robert wanted to betroth Joffrey to Sansa. He also shows a trait in wanting to let his kids do what they want. We see this with Arya's Syrio lesson, Bran's climbing, Sansa going to the tourney, and, yes, Jon going to the Night's Watch. Ned buried his head in the sand with this issue, but that doesn't mean that he did not love him. Ned sacrificed so much out of love for Jon. 

Oh, I never said that Ned didn't love Jon ... I just think it was convenient for Ned to also not tell Jon the truth. It helped him not only to 'protect' Jon from a dangerous truth but it also protected his entire family from another civil war - which a grown-up Jon Snow may have started.

As I think I laid out - the closeness between Jon and Robb (and also Bran and Arya) could have easily enough drawn the North into a war on the Targaryen side. I mean, who would Eddard or Robb Stark be to prevent a Targaryen prince from making a bid for his grandfather's throne? Or to help his uncle and aunt with their invasion to take back what was theirs to begin with? One can practicially hear Robb and Bran and Arya tell everybody that Jon should be king because he was Rhaegar's only living son.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

When Ned allows Jon to go to the Night's Watch Jon is fourteen years old and he has Benjen there with him. Ned has effectively delayed any decision about Jon for a year or so. That Benjen gets lost on a ranging is not something anyone could have forecast. Nor is Ned's own fate. But Ned has to do something about Jon and bringing him to King's Landing to be subject of speculation from Robert, the Lannisters, Varys, Littlefinger, et al is not an option for Lord Eddard. The danger is too great. 

That is nothing that's actually in the text. Many a bastard lived at court and grew to high office there, so Ned actual excuse is a non-excuse at all. He could have taken the boy with him if he wanted to. We have no idea that he still feared anyone would figure out 'the truth' at this point.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Nor can he leave Jon at Winterfell with Catelyn who has made it clear she doesn't want him. For Ned he has to find a place Jon can remain hidden, and under Benjen's care is likely the best option. Or which Lord would he entrust his sister's secret son without putting him in an effective hostage situation at worst, or at best someone who hasn't a clue of the danger facing him.

Simply resolved: He could have told Cat the truth. Or he could have decided to put his wife into his place and commanded her as her lord husband to keep Jon at Winterfell. He could also have decided to take Catelyn with him down south to name another regent in her place.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Whether Benjen knows the truth or not - I suspects he has figured it out - he is a much better choice to ensure Jon's safety. Bad parenting? Not so much when the alternatives could include death. Ned has promises to keep he gave his sister on her deathbed, and I'm willing the bet those include hiding Jon's identity and keeping him out of the hands of Robert Baratheon.

I very much doubt that those promises involved a long list with clauses for every eventuality. You know what Ned also could have done? Decline Robert's offer to become the Hand. Then there would have been no such problem at all.

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Of course, the choice Ned makes to delay any long term solution while Jon grows up doesn't turn out too well. Or perhaps it turns out better than Ned could have foreseen.

It definitely doesn't turn out well for Jon Snow - who didn't really want to take the black as soon as he learned what scum lived up there - something neither his dear uncle nor his dear father had the grace to tell him. He makes the best out of his shitty situation but it is not a situation a youth of his parentage would have gotten himself into if he had known who he was.

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed. Also, I don't think we should forget Jon asked to go to the NW. The decision was still ultimately up to Ned but he may have found something else to do with Jon, had Jon not wanted to go. 

No, it wasn't Jon's decision to go. It was Ned's and Cat's. They decided he had to go - because Jon had a drunken outburst in front of Benjen. Ned makes it perfectly clear that the matter is decided when he talks to Cat and Luwin. He doesn't say I'll give the boy a choice whether to take the black or not, I makes it clear that he has to go.

Ned cannot decide that Jon will stay at the Wall until he has sworn his vow, of course, but he made it clear he no longer had a place at Winterfell. Else Jon wouldn't have gone - or he would have likely turned around and went back home as soon as he understood what a shithole the Watch was (which happened on the way to the Wall).

9 hours ago, zoenerys said:

I think that not telling Jon about how the night's watch was, or that it didn't have to be permanent, and that he was welcome to come back, was definitely a screw up. He didn't talk about it with Jon at all AFAIK. Jon was really upset that Ned let him go, Bran even mentions that Jon was upset, even though he has no clue why. Jon was really hurt by this. 

Yeah, Jon did not want to go. He considered it in his drunken state, but it wasn't really serious. And neither Ben nor Ned told him what the Watch was. They fucked him really hard there.

And that is part of the message of the book. Everybody has to make sacrifices. The world isn't a nice place. It is, however, not very well written as are many early parts of AGoT where characters don't really seem to think things through all that much. This continues with Cat's insistence that she had to go to KL personally after the second attempt on Bran.

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Ned doesn't  tell Jon he has to stay with the Night's Watch, of course. Which means that before Jon takes his vows he is free to do as he wants. Benjen is supposed to be back well before Jon was to do so. That tells me that Benjen may have had something to say about when or if Jon said those vows. He is, after all, not only Jon's uncle, but the First Ranger of the Watch. So, as far as Ned knows when Jon leaves with Benjen there is a year to a year and a half before Jon turns sixteen and can decide what to do, and you can't find a much better place to hide some one from prying eyes. I'm not sure the plan was a screw up. I think the events that happen may have short circuited the plan.

That seems to be wishful thinking on your part. Benjen made it perfectly clear to Jon that he was no longer his uncle but his brother at the Wall. He no longer treated Jon as his nephew but as a man of the Watch. There isn't the slightest indication that Benjen wanted Jon not to swear his vows once the time came. If Benjen cared about what Jon wanted he would have told him the truth first, not at the last possible moment when Jon had already bonded with people at the Wall. I mean, what kind of fucking shit would that be to tell him the truth the night before he was to say his vows? Not to mention that this wasn't very likely.

Of course, we don't know whether Benjen knows the truth, but considering his actual closeness with Lyanna chances are pretty high that he did know it. But we have no indication to believe that he ever intended to tell Jon anything about that. However, it is quite clear that Benjen never wanted Jon to take the black - else it is very odd that a man who voluntarily took the black would react to his nephew's wishes to follow his example the way he did. Which was very dismissive.

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We agree here, but when thinking of those alternatives to where Jon might go, I can think of some fairly awful Northern Houses he could be shipped off to. The Bolton's? The Karstarks? Now the Mountain Clans would be interesting. So too with the Royces in the Vale. Probably too close to Lysa and King's Landing both.

Jon could have been sent to any other noble house as a ward. The houses of the North - and not only those! - would have gladly taken in the son of the Hand of the King as a ward until he came of age. And nobody would have been able to figure out anything about Jon by looking at him or talking about him since Jon himself had no idea who the hell his mother was.

Robert's visit in KL shows that pretty much nobody had any interest in Eddard Stark's bastard. Nobody talked to him, nobody wanted to know anything about him.

35 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

He could have easily sent him to the Cerwyns. I think as far as solutions to what to do with Jon, that may have been the easiest and simplest one. Jon and Cley (along with Robb) were friends. The castle is half a day's ride from Winterfell, which means Jon could have visited his brothers any time he wanted and vice versa. But Jonelle Cerwyn is exactly Lyanna's age, so that could have been a non-starter.

Those would have been the most obvious choice. But there are literally many others. As I mentioned above - this is pretty much bad writing on George's part, creating dichotomies where there were obviously many different possibilities.

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31 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

He could have easily sent him to the Cerwyns. I think as far as solutions to what to do with Jon, that may have been the easiest and simplest one. Jon and Cley (along with Robb) were friends. The castle is half a day's ride from Winterfell, which means Jon could have visited his brothers any time he wanted and vice versa. But Jonelle Cerwyn is exactly Lyanna's age, so that could have been a non-starter.

I don't doubt he could have done so, but he wants Jon hidden. Hidden away from prying eyes that include Catelyn. I'm not sure leaving Jon a half a day's ride from Winterfell does the trick. Jon and Cley being that close to Robb, and also Cat, isn't exactly resolving the problem of Catelyn's demand that he can't stay at Winterfell.

I just think we know why Ned had Jon at Winterfell all those years. He made a promise to Lyanna to do so. He is to protect Jon. Not push him off on anyone else, but when he no longer can do so personally, he chooses Benjen to watch over Jon. That Jon also wants to go with his Uncle makes it much easier. Jon isn't sent away to hide him from Ned. He is where he wants to be, and he is both hidden at the far end of Westeros where nobody just happens by to check out the new recruits, and where he has his brother to make sure he is protected. I don't think we can fault Ned for not taking into account the Others as a threat. Or perhaps we can, but it sure didn't enter into his thinking when he allows Jon to go to Castle Black.

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46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it wasn't Jon's decision to go. It was Ned's and Cat's. They decided he had to go - because Jon had a drunken outburst in front of Benjen. Ned makes it perfectly clear that the matter is decided when he talks to Cat and Luwin. He doesn't say I'll give the boy a choice whether to take the black or not, I makes it clear that he has to go.

I specifically said it was Ned's decision. I also said Jon asked to go. Both things are true. 

Jon asked, Luwin offered the suggestion to Ned, Ned decided it was a good one. It was Jon asking that moved that forward. Had Jon not asked he may have never ended up at the wall. 

It wasn't a drunken outburst & it wasn't Cat's decision either. Cat said she didn't want him there & Ned allowed her to say that but ultimately he could have told her, too bad, he is staying here. There isn't anything she could have done about it. Ned isn't that type of man but that doesn't change that the decision was his & his alone. 

Ned doesn't need to "give him a choice to go" because Luwin just told him Jon wants to go, so Jon's choice was to go. Ned is answering that request with a yes, he can go. 

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned cannot decide that Jon will stay at the Wall until he has sworn his vow, of course, but he made it clear he no longer had a place at Winterfell. Else Jon wouldn't have gone - or he would have likely turned around and went back home as soon as he understood what a shithole the Watch was (which happened on the way to the Wall)

Where in the text did Ned make it clear he no longer has a place at WF to Jon? Jon would have gone, because he asked to go, he wanted to go. Jon began to understand on the way to the wall what the watch was comprised of, yes, but he never thinks oh dang wish I could go back home, but I can't because my father made it clear I'm not welcome there anymore. 

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, Jon did not want to go. He considered it in his drunken state, but it wasn't really serious. And neither Ben nor Ned told him what the Watch was. They fucked him really hard there.

His drunken state was not the only time he considered it. This just isn't true. 

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@Lord Varys this doesn't sound to me like a drunken outburst or a thought once considered in a drunken state. 

 

Quote

“I want to serve in the Night’s Watch, Uncle.”
       He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb’s bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

 

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36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Lord Varys this doesn't sound to me like a drunken outburst or a thought once considered in a drunken state.

That is internal motivation. Jon never revealed this to Benjen, meaning the decision for him to join the NW wasn't made for him by people who had good reason to believe he may have made up his mind.

Also, Jon being grumpy and pissed after Ned talked to him means he wasn't this sure about this idea after all.

Keep in mind that Ned becoming the Hand could have also allowed Jon to try to make himself a career down south as his father's sworn sword. His idea to go to the Wall was a choice he made while he had only a limited view of his own possibilities. Going to the Wall is something Ned could and should have talked him out of ... instead he decided to push him into that direction.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That is internal motivation. Jon never revealed this to Benjen, meaning the decision for him to join the NW wasn't made for him by people who had good reason to believe he may have made up his mind

Regardless, it wasn't a drunken outburst or something he hadn't thought through right?

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, Jon being grumpy and pissed after Ned talked to him means he wasn't this sure about this idea after all

I don't recall this but will look. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Keep in mind that Ned becoming the Hand could have also allowed Jon to try to make himself a career down south as his father's sworn sword. His idea to go to the Wall was a choice he made while he had only a limited view of his own possibilities. Going to the Wall is something Ned could and should have talked him out of ... instead he decided to push him into that direction

Maybe he should have given him more info. Benjen did try to talk him out of it though. Maybe he should have done many things but I don't think the ultimate decision to allow him to go where he asked to go is a bad one. Ned is balancing many things here. He likely did not want him living within reach of Robert for obvious reasons, he would be doing Jon no kindness to command Cat to allow him to stay there, when Jon asked to go to the wall it presented a perfect opportunity; to accomplish what Ned needed to (keep his identity hidden) and allow Jon to do what he is asking to do. 

At any rate this is a different conversation because I wasn't really contesting any of this. My contentions were with the assertion that Jon only made a drunken outburst, Cat had any power to make a decision, & that he was made to go to the wall or that he didn't want to. All of which are false. 

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, Jon being grumpy and pissed after Ned talked to him means he wasn't this sure about this idea after all

I don't see anything that suggests he is grumpy & pissed about going to the wall, maybe you could point out what you are referring to? 

He is sad to be leaving his siblings, sad over Bran's condition & stressed about his interaction with Catelyn but nothing that I would say equates being pissed about going where he asked to go. 

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't doubt he could have done so, but he wants Jon hidden. Hidden away from prying eyes that include Catelyn. I'm not sure leaving Jon a half a day's ride from Winterfell does the trick. Jon and Cley being that close to Robb, and also Cat, isn't exactly resolving the problem of Catelyn's demand that he can't stay at Winterfell.

Why, though? Jon has been at Winterfell for 14 years. He's been under Catelyn's roof for 14 years. She's had a pretty good look at him. It's not like Jon himself has any answers for her.

Jon has been in the north for 14 years. Lords have visited Winterfell during that time. Heck, Jorah Mormont and Lynesse visited Winterfell a few times and even stayed there a fortnight.

Just because Ned is leaving the north, doesn't mean that his bannermen will start prying into Jon's origins. No one seems to doubt honest, can't tell a lie, honorable Ned's story. Plus we have been beaten over the head that Jon looks like a Stark.

Him not wanting to take him to King's Landing makes absolute sense. There are people there who can easily see something in Jon that could end the whole charade. I'm thinking about Barristan Selmy. I think Varys already knows anyway.

The only thing sending Jon away achieves is stripping him further from a crown. It doesn't make him safer there. Ned is well aware that there's a King-Beyond-the-Wall. He even talks about calling the banners to go deal with him.

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I specifically said it was Ned's decision. I also said Jon asked to go. Both things are true.

Jon never asked Eddard Stark to go. He asked his uncle to take him with him while he was drunk - and whatever thoughts he had about being a black brother were based on lies and false impressions. He did not only know who he was - Rhaegar Targaryen's son, and not a Stark subject to the whims of Eddard Stark or Catelyn Tully - but also not what the Night's Watch was.

He was deceived by whatever his father and uncle told him about the Watch ... and neither of them bothered to give him a clear picture so he might reconsider his desire to take the black. Instead, Ned decided that Jon's drunken outburst meant he would now join the Watch. There would be no reconsideration.

And Cat decided that Jon would no longer have a place at Winterfell. She made it very clear she would not suffer him at her castle after Ned's departure.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Jon asked, Luwin offered the suggestion to Ned, Ned decided it was a good one. It was Jon asking that moved that forward. Had Jon not asked he may have never ended up at the wall. 

Cat would have still thrown him out of Winterfell. That was clear even before Luwin came up with his suggestion.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It wasn't a drunken outburst & it wasn't Cat's decision either. Cat said she didn't want him there & Ned allowed her to say that but ultimately he could have told her, too bad, he is staying here. There isn't anything she could have done about it. Ned isn't that type of man but that doesn't change that the decision was his & his alone.

It was her decision because Ned had already decided Cat would rule his castle and the North in his place. He could have reconsidered that, of course, but he did not want to reconsider it. He was fine with what Cat and Luwin told him/suggested to him.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ned doesn't need to "give him a choice to go" because Luwin just told him Jon wants to go, so Jon's choice was to go. Ned is answering that request with a yes, he can go.

That is not what happened - Ned decides what Jon would do, not what he can do. He says he will them what has been decided, not that he can make a choice.

Jon's fate was decided on the basis of a drunken outburst Lord Eddard was told about second hand by his maester who heard it from his brother (who apparently didn't bother to talk to Ned about Jon himself). Ned did not say he would ask Jon whether he still/truly wanted to go to the Wall, he told him he would tell him what Jon would have to do.

You can compare that, perhaps, to Jaehaerys I's decision to dump his son Vaegon at the Citadel. Nobody asked Vaegon whether he wanted to go there or become a maester or archmaester ... the king and the queen and their maester discussed this obnoxious child and then decided his fate. And then Vaegon was told what he would do in an audience - just like Jon was.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Where in the text did Ned make it clear he no longer has a place at WF to Jon? Jon would have gone, because he asked to go, he wanted to go. Jon began to understand on the way to the wall what the watch was comprised of, yes, but he never thinks oh dang wish I could go back home, but I can't because my father made it clear I'm not welcome there anymore.

Jon himself makes that clear when he does not consider to return to Winterfell when he thinks about the fact that he doesn't have to take his vows.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon never asked Eddard Stark to go. He asked his uncle to take him with him while he was drunk - and whatever thoughts he had about being a black brother were based on lies and false impressions. He did not only know who he was - Rhaegar Targaryen's son, and not a Stark subject to the whims of Eddard Stark or Catelyn Tully - but also not what the Night's Watch was.

Sure, we don't have on page Jon asking Ned but Luwin told Ned Jon asked & presumably there was a time where Ned told Jon he could go & Jon didn't reply with "I never asked to go" so Ned knows he asked. 

No, the thoughts he had on becoming a brother of the NW were true enough. A bastard can rise high there & he does. He did seem to have a false impression of what & who the men of the NW were. Whether that is because Ned &/or Benjen purposefully hid that from him though, is arguable. 

If he is not subject to the whims of Eddard Stark because he isn't a Stark then he also has no right to expect to be taken care of at WF by Eddard Stark. I would argue, as his guardian, he is subject to the commands of Eddard Stark. 

Anyway you are moving goal posts. Your original assertion that Jon only made a drunken, not thought through decision has been proven wrong. 

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He was deceived by whatever his father and uncle told him about the Watch ... and neither of them bothered to give him a clear picture so he might reconsider his desire to take the black. Instead, Ned decided that Jon's drunken outburst meant he would now join the Watch. There would be no reconsideration

I disagree. They may not have told him what the men of the watch were but Benjen most certainly does try to give him a clear picture of what he is sacrificing in joining the watch. 

It makes no difference if Jon made the declaration while drunk because we know he had thought long & hard on it. 

Ned had much to consider & seemed to make the best decision available to him, all things considered. He doesn't tell us there will be no reconsideration & Jon doesn't try to make one that we are aware of. I highly doubt Ned sat Jon down & said "You are to join the NW's & I know that's what you expressed you wanted to do but just so you are aware, you have to, there will be no reconsidering, you have no choice" There would be no reason to say that when Ned & Jon both know it was Jon's wish. 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And Cat decided that Jon would no longer have a place at Winterfell. She made it very clear she would not suffer him at her castle after Ned's departure

She said this, yes. But she & Ned both are well aware that she cannot command Eddard Stark to do anything. It is not her castle, it is Ned's, he is the Lord of WF & he rules it, his wife, & his children. If he wanted to go against her wish there isn't anything she can say or do about it. 

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cat would have still thrown him out of Winterfell. That was clear even before Luwin came up with his suggestion

Are you suggesting that Catelyn would have disobeyed a direct order from her Lord husband? I hardly think so. If Cat was ordered to suffer Jon in WF, Cat would have suffered Jon in WF, albeit, not very happily. 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

was her decision because Ned had already decided Cat would rule his castle and the North in his place. He could have reconsidered that, of course, but he did not want to reconsider it. He was fine with what Cat and Luwin told him/suggested to him.

In his place being the operative phrase there. Her rule does not trump his because she is ruling in his place. The Hand of the King rules in the place of the King occasionally, that doesn't mean the Hand can go against a command of the King. Yes, he was fine with the suggestion which is why he allowed it. If you are aware he could have refused it, how can you then say it was Cat's decision? It is only Cat's decision if Ned allows it to be or agrees with her. Her only power is derived through Ned. 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not what happened - Ned decides what Jon would do, not what he can do. He says he will them what has been decided, not that he can make a choice.

Yes, what had been decided irt Jon's request to join the NW. He already made a choice. He expressed his wish to join the NW, Ned decides to allow it. 

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's fate was decided on the basis of a drunken outburst Lord Eddard was told about second hand by his maester who heard it from his brother (who apparently didn't bother to talk to Ned about Jon himself). Ned did not say he would ask Jon whether he still/truly wanted to go to the Wall, he told him he would tell him what Jon would have to do

Except we know it was not on the basis of a drunken outburst. I've given you the quote. It's pretty clear. Ned doesn't need to say he will ask Jon if he truly wants to go. There is no reason for Ned to think Luwin or Benjen are lying & even if they were that would become apparent when Ned told Jon his decision. It just doesn't make any sense to argue that Jon had no choice when he got exactly what he asked for. He could have been denied that request, of course, but he wasn't. 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon himself makes that clear when he does not consider to return to Winterfell when he thinks about the fact that he doesn't have to take his vows

Sure, or, the more likely explanation, IMO, is that Jon doesn't consider returning to WF because that isn't what he wants to do. He is trying to find his place in the world, not come running back home like a dog with its tail tucked between his legs. 

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