R+L=J v.166

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Are you suggesting that Catelyn would have disobeyed a direct order from her Lord husband? I hardly think so. If Cat was ordered to suffer Jon in WF, Cat would have suffered Jon in WF, albeit, not very happily. 

I think that the implication  was that with Ned in the south for x years and with Robb being still a minor and without no one to reign over Cat's worst traits, things would get real soon very bad for Jon. Yes, Ned can command Cat whatever he wants but with him being at KL, well Cat would follow his commands as she understood it...  That's why Ned begs Cat. She does not neeed to kick him out honestly.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think that the implication  was that with Ned in the south for x years and with Robb being still a minor and without no one to reign over Cat's worst traits, things would get real soon very bad for Jon. Yes, Ned can command Cat whatever he wants but with him being at KL, well Cat would follow his commands as she understood it...  That's why Ned begs Cat. She does not neeed to kick him out honestly.

I agree. He could command her but he doesn't because it would not be good for Jon or for Cat. The fact that he could have commanded her though shows clearly who is in charge & who is making decisions & it isn't Catelyn. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe he should have given him more info. Benjen did try to talk him out of it though. Maybe he should have done many things but I don't think the ultimate decision to allow him to go where he asked to go is a bad one. Ned is balancing many things here. He likely did not want him living within reach of Robert for obvious reasons, he would be doing Jon no kindness to command Cat to allow him to stay there, when Jon asked to go to the wall it presented a perfect opportunity; to accomplish what Ned needed to (keep his identity hidden) and allow Jon to do what he is asking to do.

Benjen urged him to father some bastards - which was a ridiculous and quite ugly advice to give to a boy who thinks he himself is a bastard.

On a doubly false pretense - Jon thinking he was the son of Ned and him thinking there was no scum at the Wall.

If you think that's the way Jon should have been treated - great. But I don't think so.

And I most definitely think that this deception is going to be a main issue with Jon when/if he ever learns the truth about his parentage.

Because there would be no point to this story at all if Jon's true parentage didn't have a relevant effect on his identity or the way he perceived his alleged father.

This whole thing is both a personal and a political betrayal.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't see anything that suggests he is grumpy & pissed about going to the wall, maybe you could point out what you are referring to? 

He is sad to be leaving his siblings, sad over Bran's condition & stressed about his interaction with Catelyn but nothing that I would say equates being pissed about going where he asked to go. 

Reread Bran's second chapter. Bran makes it clear Jon was sullen and not good company for a couple of days, implying that his conversation with Ned wasn't something that left Jon in a good mood.

That means that Jon was either not that determined to take the black now, or he wasn't that sure he would do that at all.

There is no reason to interpret this all in a way that makes Ned look as a guy who had everybody's best interests at heart - since it is quite clear that Jon's best interest was to know the truth about himself and the NW before making as important a decision as taking the black.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, we don't have on page Jon asking Ned but Luwin told Ned Jon asked & presumably there was a time where Ned told Jon he could go & Jon didn't reply with "I never asked to go" so Ned knows he asked. 

There is no reason to assume something like that, since that's not in the text. The text clearly states that Ned will 'tell' Jon was had been decided, not offer him a choice.

Ned and Cat and Luwin took a drunken outburst of a fourteen-year-old boy and turned it into a lifelong committment. That is just wrong. And it is all based on a double lie.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, the thoughts he had on becoming a brother of the NW were true enough. A bastard can rise high there & he does. He did seem to have a false impression of what & who the men of the NW were. Whether that is because Ned &/or Benjen purposefully hid that from him though, is arguable.

Of course they did. Else Jon would not feel betrayed afterwards. Ned and Cat pretty much suck as parents preparing their children for the reality of the world (never mind the fact that Ned actually claims to be trying to that by dragging his sons to attend executions at the age of seven) as is not being made evident by Jon's delusions about the Watch but also by Sansa's delusions about knighthood and chivalry.

Such ideas would not enter the minds of the children at Winterfell if their tutors and parents were not filling their heads with stories.

The first thing a man like Benjen should do when he is approached by somebody like Jon is to tell him the truth about the Watch and then ask him whether he still wants to join them.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If he is not subject to the whims of Eddard Stark because he isn't a Stark then he also has no right to expect to be taken care of at WF by Eddard Stark. I would argue, as his guardian, he is subject to the commands of Eddard Stark. 

Ned stole Jon's identity. Yes, he is his uncle on his mother's side, but he is also the uncle who played a rather crucial in the death of Jon's own father. And he may have been an uncle who wasn't exactly on the same page as Jon's mother in relation to the man she wanted to be with.

It was the right thing to protect Jon, but it was wrong to steal his identity, to brand him a bastard, and to allow/push him into making a decision that would essentially cut him off from his Targaryen family for good and take away the possibility from him to make a bid for his grandfather's throne. That is his right as one of the last male scions of House Targaryen.

If Rickon were taken in by some Skagosi fisherman and raised to believe he was that man's son to keep him safe that would also be commendable only to a certain point ... if it involved keeping the boy's birthright from him it would be a theft of identity.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Anyway you are moving goal posts. Your original assertion that Jon only made a drunken, not thought through decision has been proven wrong. 

That was a rather minor part of the case I made. It is irrelevant to me whether the bastard Jon Snow wanted to take the black or not. My point is that Rhaegar Targaryen's son would have never done that had he known who he was. Ned prevented him from making an informed decision and that's just wrong.

Whether Jon knows what the Watch is or whether he was pressured to go there or not isn't really that important. The far more crucial issue is that he was lied to about his identity and not stopped when he made a decision affecting his entire life - a decision that conveniently resolved 'the Jon Snow issue' for House Stark.

As soon as Jon Snow is safely buried for life at the Wall the entire world can know that he is Rhaegar Targaryen's son. It would make no difference. And it makes no sense to assume that Ned wouldn't have realized that.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. They may not have told him what the men of the watch were but Benjen most certainly does try to give him a clear picture of what he is sacrificing in joining the watch. 

Which isn't the point - not to mention that Jon knows that himself. The point is that Jon thinks the Watch is a noble calling and not a place where one serves mostly with lowborn and criminal scum. He thought there were many more such men as he himself and his uncle.

He made a decision on bad information and never got the opportunity to reconsider.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It makes no difference if Jon made the declaration while drunk because we know he had thought long & hard on it. 

It certainly makes a difference because the people interpreting this as Jon's wishes cannot read minds. They take a drunken outburst as a sincere wish. And that's simply not good judgment.

Ned behaves like those parents who take a throwaway line of their children as pretext to send them to the military academy or a boarding school - you wanted to go there, did you not?

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ned had much to consider & seemed to make the best decision available to him, all things considered. He doesn't tell us there will be no reconsideration & Jon doesn't try to make one that we are aware of. I highly doubt Ned sat Jon down & said "You are to join the NW's & I know that's what you expressed you wanted to do but just so you are aware, you have to, there will be no reconsidering, you have no choice" There would be no reason to say that when Ned & Jon both know it was Jon's wish. 

The way it is presented - especially in light of the insight the Bran chapter gives us - implies Ned told Jon that he would go with Benjen to the Wall when he left, and that this was a final decision because he would leave Catelyn in charge of Winterfell and she wouldn't have him here.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She said this, yes. But she & Ned both are well aware that she cannot command Eddard Stark to do anything. It is not her castle, it is Ned's, he is the Lord of WF & he rules it, his wife, & his children. If he wanted to go against her wish there isn't anything she can say or do about it. 

It was Ned's wish to make Catelyn regent of Winterfell and the North in his absence. She would be in charge of things, and he never indicated that he would change his mind on this one. And, honestly, we don't know the dynamics of their marriage enough to know whether Ned could have forced Cat to keep Jon and remain in good standing with her.

But this is a side track issue - we do know that Ned cared more about pleasing Cat/keeping her in charge of Winterfell and the North than allowing Jon to remain in Winterfell or telling Jon the truth.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Are you suggesting that Catelyn would have disobeyed a direct order from her Lord husband? I hardly think so. If Cat was ordered to suffer Jon in WF, Cat would have suffered Jon in WF, albeit, not very happily. 

That doesn't seem to be the case, actually. Cat made it clear she would not suffer him at Winterfell. Whether that was dependent on Ned giving his permission or not is not clear. I'm not sure what Cat would have done if Ned had forced the issue - but she always had the opportunity to kiss Ned goodbye and leave the North for the Vale or the Riverlands to stay with her family there ... indefinitely if she so chose.

Ned could of course have named a different regent - a possibility I originally brought up. But that is never considered in the books.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, what had been decided irt Jon's request to join the NW. He already made a choice. He expressed his wish to join the NW, Ned decides to allow it. 

Ned decided it. That is what the text implies. And Jon's anger makes it clear that he didn't like how the talk with Ned went at all.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, or, the more likely explanation, IMO, is that Jon doesn't consider returning to WF because that isn't what he wants to do. He is trying to find his place in the world, not come running back home like a dog with its tail tucked between his legs. 

He reconsiders going back home quickly enough - after he learns about Ned's death. But before that this wasn't really something he thought about. Which really doesn't make much sense all things considered if he knew he could always go back to Winterfell. I mean, Jon had to take a lot of shit until he started to get to terms with how the Watch was. Why did he go through all that shit if he could have just went back to Winterfell when Tyrion left.

The crucial quotes on those issues are those:

Quote

“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

This doesn't indicate that Ned has a choice there. He cannot command Cat to keep Jon in Winterfell and have her rule in his name or groom Robb to rule Winterfell one day.

Quote

“When shall we tell Jon?” the maester asked.

“When I must. Preparations must be made. It will be a fortnight before we are ready to depart. I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I will tell him myself.”

No talk about a choice. And keep in mind that Jon never asked his lord father for permission to join the Watch. A drunken Jon asked his uncle to take him with him 'in a sudden rush'. Jon may have thought long and hard in his nights about rising high at the Wall and doing much heroic stunts up there ... but he certainly didn't make a rational decision when he talked to Ben.

Yet they used this outburst to make his decision for him.

Quote

Bran had been left behind with Jon and the girls and Rickon. But Rickon was only a baby and the girls were only girls and Jon and his wolf were nowhere to be found. Bran did not look for him very hard. He thought Jon was angry at him. Jon seemed to be angry at everyone these days. Bran did not know why. He was going with Uncle Ben to the Wall, to join the Night’s Watch. That was almost as good as going south with the king. Robb was the one they were leaving behind, not Jon.

Jon was still pretty happy in the Arya chapter, indicating Ned talked to him after that. And it is also quite clear that he is pissed because he has to go to the Wall since that's something Bran also knows in that chapter. Also note that Bran doesn't phrase it 'Jon was allowed to the Wall' or 'Jon decided to go to the Wall' but simply that he was going there - like Bran was going to court. Which was also not Bran's decision but his father's.

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Why, though? Jon has been at Winterfell for 14 years. He's been under Catelyn's roof for 14 years. She's had a pretty good look at him. It's not like Jon himself has any answers for her.

Ned is motivated to hide Jon from different people for different reasons. With Cat it is not that Catelyn is going to go on some kind of hunt to discover who Jon's mother was, but rather Ned is moved to separate Jon and Cat because of the tensions between them. Ned can continue to tell Catelyn nothing about Jon, but it is a secret that eats at their marriage. Keeping the same secret from Jon becomes ever more difficult because the boy begins to think there must be something terrible about his mother, or something terrible about Ned's relationship with her that won't let Ned tell his "son" the truth. Simply put leaving Jon in Catelyn's care is asking too much of Cat and Jon.  If Ned had no other choice, perhaps he would have had to order Catelyn to do so, but fortunately he had other options.

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jon has been in the north for 14 years. Lords have visited Winterfell during that time. Heck, Jorah Mormont and Lynesse visited Winterfell a few times and even stayed there a fortnight.

Just because Ned is leaving the north, doesn't mean that his bannermen will start prying into Jon's origins. No one seems to doubt honest, can't tell a lie, honorable Ned's story. Plus we have been beaten over the head that Jon looks like a Stark.

I don't think any of the Lords of the North represent a danger to expose Jon's secret parentage. With them it is more of a question of both some who would use Jon as de facto hostage against Ned (the Boltons, and maybe the Karstarks) and those who would turn Jon over to Robert if the king demands him. The latter is a problem regarding Catelyn as well. What would Cat do if Robert sent some Kingsguard to Winterfell demanding Jon in exchange for her daughters? Or Ned himself? That's not a choice Ned can allow anyone to make.

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Him not wanting to take him to King's Landing makes absolute sense. There are people there who can easily see something in Jon that could end the whole charade. I'm thinking about Barristan Selmy. I think Varys already knows anyway.

I think Varys has a suspicion, but proving that is a problem. Robert views Ned as his best friend and closer than his brothers. For the Spider to slander him in Robert's eyes without proof is something Lord Varys is wise enough to avoid. We already know he knows about Cersei's children and won't tell Robert to save his own neck, so I've got to believe it is even more the case with Ned. Robert really loves Ned. I'm not so sure about Cersei.

As long as Wylla, the Daynes, Howland, and possibly a few others keep their mouths shut, Varys has nothing to go to Robert with that won't rebound against him. Still, we agree about taking Jon to King's Landing. His presence there would invite questions that Ned doesn't want asked.

 

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The only thing sending Jon away achieves is stripping him further from a crown. It doesn't make him safer there. Ned is well aware that there's a King-Beyond-the-Wall. He even talks about calling the banners to go deal with him.

Ned also doesn't consider Mance much of a threat. I do think sending Jon to the Wall makes sense given what we know when Ned makes the decision to allow him to go. Jon asking to go, Benjen's presence in the Night's Watch, Catelyn's refusal to have him in Winterfell, and the stupidity of taking Jon with him to King's Landing make this a sensible decision on Eddard's part.

But you raise the idea of Ned being concerned with Jon's claim to the crown. I'm not sure that is something Ned IS concerned with, but if he is he has a year or a year and a half to deal with that as long as Benjen is there to intervene with Jon taking the oath. As I tried to raise before, this may have been a choice to delay making a choice that Ned has to make when he ever decides to tell Jon the truth.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Just because Ned is leaving the north, doesn't mean that his bannermen will start prying into Jon's origins. No one seems to doubt honest, can't tell a lie, honorable Ned's story. Plus we have been beaten over the head that Jon looks like a Stark.

There is no chance that Jon would ever be in any danger after he had been successfully branded Ned's bastard. Nobody cares about bastards ... and princes who are branded bastards are effectively eunuchs already. This is not exactly a stain that can be washed away easily. Jon isn't Aegon, he cannot wash his hair and look like a Targaryen prince. He will always remain a Stark insofar as his looks are concerned - and a Stark bastard at that.

There certainly are still people out there who would like to put a Targaryen on the throne ... but none of them would want to transform a Stark bastard into their pretender king. That would just be unpleasant business. They could never be sure whether they were not putting some bastard on the throne.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Him not wanting to take him to King's Landing makes absolute sense. There are people there who can easily see something in Jon that could end the whole charade. I'm thinking about Barristan Selmy. I think Varys already knows anyway.

I don't think there is a big chance that somebody should have cared enough about some bastard to mess with the issue - if this were the case they would have done so during the Winterfell visit. That Ned had a bastard was no secret. One could assume that it was smart of Ned to not bring Jon close to people who might become a danger to him if the truth was somehow revealed ... but then, he dragged his daughters into this snake pit, so there is no good reason why he should have left Jon at home.

Thus we likely have to buy it that the reason he gave was his actual reason.

But in any case, we should definitely not delude ourselves into believing Ned ever wanted to tell Jon the truth - he may have dreamed about doing that, but he would have never done it. And that was the smart thing for House Stark ... but still a very ugly thing to Jon Snow.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no chance that Jon would ever be in any danger after he had been successfully branded Ned's bastard. Nobody cares about bastards ... and princes who are branded bastards are effectively eunuchs already. This is not exactly a stain that can be washed away easily. Jon isn't Aegon, he cannot wash his hair and look like a Targaryen prince. He will always remain a Stark insofar as his looks are concerned - and a Stark bastard at that.

There certainly are still people out there who would like to put a Targaryen on the throne ... but none of them would want to transform a Stark bastard into their pretender king. That would just be unpleasant business. They could never be sure whether they were not putting some bastard on the throne.

I don't think there is a big chance that somebody should have cared enough about some bastard to mess with the issue - if this were the case they would have done so during the Winterfell visit. That Ned had a bastard was no secret. One could assume that it was smart of Ned to not bring Jon close to people who might become a danger to him if the truth was somehow revealed ... but then, he dragged his daughters into this snake pit, so there is no good reason why he should have left Jon at home.

Thus we likely have to buy it that the reason he gave was his actual reason.

But in any case, we should definitely not delude ourselves into believing Ned ever wanted to tell Jon the truth - he may have dreamed about doing that, but he would have never done it. And that was the smart thing for House Stark ... but still a very ugly thing to Jon Snow.

LV, you keep putting this idea that in people's eyes being a Stark bastard removes Jon from possible harm. The whole point of convincing the world he is Ned's bastard son is to hide his true heritage that puts him in considerable danger. But in politics (aka the Game of Thrones) the players have reason to investigate their enemies and even their allies. Yes, Ned's story works for fourteen years when we first read of his background. I also submit it is not just the story, but the remoteness of Winterfell that helps keep Jon safe. But that doesn't mean no one is interested in his tale. Clearly Cersei knows something of Jon's story. She throws it back at Ned in the Red Keep's godswood. From where does she get her information? Varys? Her Father? Robert too is still interested in Jon's story. He asks Ned, even forces Ned to tell the tale of Wylla again on the Barrows, as he obviously did once before. Stannis as well has heard tales that he alludes to with Jon. So, the idea Jon is safe is a non-starter for Lord Eddard, and should be for the reader.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think there is a big chance that somebody should have cared enough about some bastard to mess with the issue - if this were the case they would have done so during the Winterfell visit. That Ned had a bastard was no secret. One could assume that it was smart of Ned to not bring Jon close to people who might become a danger to him if the truth was somehow revealed ... but then, he dragged his daughters into this snake pit, so there is no good reason why he should have left Jon at home.

I think there are enough people who know bits and parts of the story to be able to put two and two together in King's Landing that Jon would be in danger. And Jon being in danger would put Sansa and Arya in danger as well. Sansa was engaged to Joffrey, so the expectation is that she would go and we know why Arya went. Bran would have gone too if he hadn't been crippled by Jaime. Cersei tried to have Jon killed for less than that.

If Catelyn and Cersei believe that Ashara was the mother (or some Dornish woman Ned raped as Cersei put it), then we have Jon's birth place. I'm not even sure Jon knows where he was born. It's never been brought up. That's already a small piece of information that's floating around with no one making the connection to Lyanna whose place of death is, I think, common knowledge.

All it takes is people coming with different pieces of the puzzle to unearth the truth. 

If there ever was a danger to Jon in the north, I think Barbrey Dustin would have been it.

@SFDanny, the reason I came up with for Ned sending Jon to the Wall is because he saw something that might have worried him, either in behavior or in looks. Jon being at Winterfell means that he is protected. Jon traveling with Ned to King's Landing and stopping by Darry, a House that is known to be Targaryen loyalist is not.

When Jon is in the north, standing next to Ned, he looks like a Stark. But Jon next to a Targaryen portrait like the ones the Darrys have, or standing in front of someone who knew the Targaryens for a long time may not look as much like a Stark anymore.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@SFDanny, the reason I came up with for Ned sending Jon to the Wall is because he saw something that might have worried him, either in behavior or in looks. Jon being at Winterfell means that he is protected. Jon traveling with Ned to King's Landing and stopping by Darry, a House that is known to be Targaryen loyalist is not.

When Jon is in the north, standing next to Ned, he looks like a Stark. But Jon next to a Targaryen portrait like the ones the Darrys have, or standing in front of someone who knew the Targaryens for a long time may not look as much like a Stark anymore.

I like your your thoughts here. We often take Martin's clues concerning eye and hair color as the only physical traits that are important. Who knows perhaps the shape of Jon's jawline or his nose would point to Rhaegar to those who knew him well. Something that jumps out to Ned, who knows the truth, maybe subtle to others, but not something that he would want under the daily observation of Varys, Robert, Cersei, or Jaime.

I do think we have been given a good reason why Ned fears leaving Jon with Catelyn. Winterfell seems to be his first choice of where he would leave Jon, but he also doesn't want Catelyn to have to choose between her children and Jon. He tells the reader just that. So, in my hypothetical scenario of Robert's Kingsguard coming to Winterfell and demanding Jon while her daughters are in King's Landing we have just such a situation that Ned fears. I think this is a major reason Ned relents and lets Jon go to the Wall. He can't ever leave Jon's fate hinge on Catelyn's choice.

[Bael's Bastard]

Yeah, I've always suspected that Jon resembles Rhaegar in physical aspects other than eye and hair color, whether other facial features, or body type. Cersei and Jaime might have seen what they expected to see during their short stay, but if he were around the Red Keep every day it would have been a matter of time. Especially once someone like Tywin, who presumably saw a lot of Rhaegar over his twenty years as Hand, arrived.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I like your your thoughts here. We often take Martin's clues concerning eye and hair color as the only physical traits that are important. Who knows perhaps the shape of Jon's jawline or his nose would point to Rhaegar to those who knew him well.

The only person at the Wall who would have a real chance at seeing something in Jon happens to be blind.

In the end, this is all about perception. The characters are told that Jon is Ned's bastard, he has the brown hair and grey eyes (grey eyes that look black in a certain light, giving the same quality as purple eyes in story), the long face, so no one questions it. Interestingly enough, Jon wouldn't even be the first Targaryen with a long face. 

The best example of this is Cersei's children. No one ever even thought they were not Robert's until they started digging around. The children were 100% Lannister. They have the golden hair and the green eyes. No one would think to question who the father was because it's a foregone conclusion that they look like their mother. But we find out that Joffrey had Jaime's green eyes.

Catelyn in her own thoughts, her thoughts about confronting Ned about Jon's mother (giving us Ashara's most striking feature, the purple eyes, which for me bears questions about Jon's eye color when he was still a baby and if this wasn't what prompted Catelyn to ask Ned about Ashara specifically), she thinks to herself that as he grew, Jon looked more like Ned than any of the sons she gave him. To me, this is a clear indicator that Jon looked nothing like Ned when he was a small child.

If Jon were to stand beside Dany (because we know for sure who she is as opposed to Young Griff), I bet they would actually look a lot alike.

Quote

Something that jumps out to Ned, who knows the truth, maybe subtle to others, but not something that he would want under the daily observation of Varys, Robert, Cersei, or Jaime.

Cersei said that the Starks did their best to hide Jon during the royal visit. We are led to believe that Jon was not allowed to mingle with the royals because of his bastardy. Him not sitting on the dais with the rest of his family during the feast could have something to do with that, but I think the reasons for him not being in the yard with Robb and Theon or not being part of the hunting party run much deeper than that. 

[Lady Rhodes]

8 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The only person at the Wall who would have a real chance at seeing something in Jon happens to be blind.

In the end, this is all about perception. The characters are told that Jon is Ned's bastard, he has the brown hair and grey eyes (grey eyes that look black in a certain light, giving the same quality as purple eyes in story), the long face, so no one questions it. Interestingly enough, Jon wouldn't even be the first Targaryen with a long face. 

The best example of this is Cersei's children. No one ever even thought they were not Robert's until they started digging around. The children were 100% Lannister. They have the golden hair and the green eyes. No one would think to question who the father was because it's a foregone conclusion that they look like their mother. But we find out that Joffrey had Jaime's green eyes.

Catelyn in her own thoughts, her thoughts about confronting Ned about Jon's mother (giving us Ashara's most striking feature, the purple eyes, which for me bears questions about Jon's eye color when he was still a baby and if this wasn't what prompted Catelyn to ask Ned about Ashara specifically), she thinks to herself that as he grew, Jon looked more like Ned than any of the sons she gave him. To me, this is a clear indicator that Jon looked nothing like Ned when he was a small child.

If Jon were to stand beside Dany (because we know for sure who she is as opposed to Young Griff), I bet they would actually look a lot alike.

Cersei said that the Starks did their best to hide Jon during the royal visit. We are led to believe that Jon was not allowed to mingle with the royals because of his bastardy. Him not sitting on the dais with the rest of his family during the feast could have something to do with that, but I think the reasons for him not being in the yard with Robb and Theon or not being part of the hunting party run much deeper than that. 

I suspect that part of the reason Jon was left out (though his bastard status is certainly a large factor given customs of Westeros) was keeping Arya and him apart. We are told frequently how Arya looks like Lyanna and how Arya and Jon look alike. Put them near each other and have Robert walk by...it wouldn’t be hard for numerous people to put that together. I think it is only Catelyn’s blind hatred that blinds s her to it. 

[zoenerys]

 

8 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The only person at the Wall who would have a real chance at seeing something in Jon happens to be blind.

In the end, this is all about perception. The characters are told that Jon is Ned's bastard, he has the brown hair and grey eyes (grey eyes that look black in a certain light, giving the same quality as purple eyes in story), the long face, so no one questions it. Interestingly enough, Jon wouldn't even be the first Targaryen with a long face. 

The best example of this is Cersei's children. No one ever even thought they were not Robert's until they started digging around. The children were 100% Lannister. They have the golden hair and the green eyes. No one would think to question who the father was because it's a foregone conclusion that they look like their mother. But we find out that Joffrey had Jaime's green eyes.

Catelyn in her own thoughts, her thoughts about confronting Ned about Jon's mother (giving us Ashara's most striking feature, the purple eyes, which for me bears questions about Jon's eye color when he was still a baby and if this wasn't what prompted Catelyn to ask Ned about Ashara specifically), she thinks to herself that as he grew, Jon looked more like Ned than any of the sons she gave him. To me, this is a clear indicator that Jon looked nothing like Ned when he was a small child.

If Jon were to stand beside Dany (because we know for sure who she is as opposed to Young Griff), I bet they would actually look a lot alike.

Cersei said that the Starks did their best to hide Jon during the royal visit. We are led to believe that Jon was not allowed to mingle with the royals because of his bastardy. Him not sitting on the dais with the rest of his family during the feast could have something to do with that, but I think the reasons for him not being in the yard with Robb and Theon or not being part of the hunting party run much deeper than that. 

Great post!  Re: the bolded, isn't it mentioned in Jon's POV during the feast that Ned is acting strangely and seems upset? I distinctly remember him being described as acting odd by Jon. Maybe he was upset due to stress of the situation and having to relive the feeling of danger.  

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/5/2020 at 9:30 AM, SFDanny said:

I like your your thoughts here. We often take Martin's clues concerning eye and hair color as the only physical traits that are important. Who knows perhaps the shape of Jon's jawline or his nose would point to Rhaegar to those who knew him well. Something that jumps out to Ned, who knows the truth, maybe subtle to others, but not something that he would want under the daily observation of Varys, Robert, Cersei, or Jaime.

Not only is there no evidence of this, but there is plenty of evidence which contradicts this assumption:

Quote

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the true born sons she bore him.

Quote

“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face.  “Yes,” he said.  “I can see it.  You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”

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The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed.  “You are Jon Snow.  You have your father’s look.”

”Did you know him, my lord?”

”I am no lord king.  Only a brother of the Night’s Watch.  I knew Lord Eddard, yes.  And his father before him.”

Quote

“Who’s this one now?”  Craster said before Jon could go.  “He has the look of a Stark.”

”My steward and squire, Jon Snow.”

Quote

“A shade more fun than needlework,” Arya gave back at him.  Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair.  Arya flushed.  They had always been close.  Jon had their father’s face, as she did. 

Quote

The boy absorbed that all in silence.  he had the Stark face if not the name:  long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away.  Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

It's not just Jon's hair and eye color.  Jon has Ned and Arya's face.  It doesn't mean that he couldn't be Rhaegar's son, after all Arya is Cat's daughter yet she doesn't share any of her mother's Tully facial features.  But if we're just going by looks, then all we have to go on is that Jon is a Stark through and through.

[Bael's Bastard]

Jon is far from the only child in the ASOIAF universe to more closely resemble their mother in descriptions that have been made available to us.

But unlike most or all other cases, our characters have an incomplete knowledge of his lineage, and thus make false assumptions about where he gets different features.

All they know is that he is supposed to be Ned's son. They have no reason to question where his Stark features come from, and no basis to nail down where any feature that isn't typically Stark came from.

[Lord Varys]

Chances are very low that anyone is going to see anything of Rhaegar in Jon.

Rhaegar has been dead for over fifteen years by now. There are very few people around who would have still a good mental image of Rhaegar in their mind left - and the only one who might recall 'his silver prince' very vividly, Jon Connington, is likely to see only the (loathed and hated?) Lyanna in Jon Snow, never Rhaegar.

There is also the fact that the only distinct features in Martinworld seem to be eyes and hair color - and those are distinctly Stark in Jon's case. Or does anybody recall any description of any other body parts of a major character? I don't - aside, perhaps, from Laenor Velaryon's 'aquiline nose' ;-).

This greatly reduces the chance that George would suddenly discover and describe a lot of features in Jon that are Rhaegar-like. Jon's face cannot resemble Rhaegar in any way, or else people wouldn't say he was resembling Ned. Because that would mean inhuman Targaryen beauty equals faces like that of Arya Horseface. And I really don't think that's a trait the blood of the dragon is known for... Sure, some Targaryens are not that beautiful - Alysanne, Alyssa, Vaegon (who actually had a long face, something that made him not comely), but Rhaegar was beautiful, so if Jon were to resemble him in a meaningful manner that would mean he would have to have a beautiful face, too. Which he doesn't seem to have by Westerosi standards.

Not to mention that Rhaegar most likely doesn't have any significant individual traits - he is an inbred Targaryen, and they all look alike. Jaehaerys looked like Maegor, Aegon II looked like his father, Viserys III looked like Rhaegar, etc. Aside from the few who do not have any Targaryen traits at all - like Baelor Breakspear. And Jon seems to be just one such. In fact, chances are that Baelor was the Targaryen prince resembling his Dornish mother to give us another precedent for the Jon Snow case.

It might people be wanting to believe that Jon Snow is indeed Rhaegar's son might 'search for and find' traces of Rhaegar in Jon, but those would then likely be just figments of their imagination, nothing that's actually there.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Jon is far from the only child in the ASOIAF universe to more closely resemble their mother in descriptions that have been made available to us.

But unlike most or all other cases, our characters have an incomplete knowledge of his lineage, and thus make false assumptions about where he gets different features.

All they know is that he is supposed to be Ned's son. They have no reason to question where his Stark features come from, and no basis to nail down where any feature that isn't typically Stark came from.

But there is no evidence that he has any features that aren't typically Stark.  Your assumption that he is Rhaegar's son is leading to an assumption that he has some of Rhaegar's Targaryen features.  But not only is this not supported in the books, it's contradicted in the books.

[Bael's Bastard]

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

But there is no evidence that he has any features that aren't typically Stark.  Your assumption that he is Rhaegar's son is leading to an assumption that he has some of Rhaegar's Targaryen features.  But not only is this not supported in the books, it's contradicted in the books.

There's no evidence that all of Jon's physical features favor the Starks. We have been explicitly told about the ones that do. Ned was the only POV character that knew Jon's true parentage, and he made every effort to hide it, not ponder or discuss which of Jon's features came from where for the benefit of the readers. The books certainly do not contradict the idea that Jon is Rhaegar's son, or that he might have physical features that favor his true father.

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There's no evidence that all of Jon's physical features favor the Starks. We have been explicitly told about the ones that do. Ned was the only POV character that knew Jon's true parentage, and he made every effort to hide it, not ponder or discuss which of Jon's features came from where for the benefit of the readers. The books certainly do not contradict the idea that Jon is Rhaegar's son, or that he might have physical features that favor his true father.

Seriously?  Did you just completely ignore the 6 quotes I just posted above.  His hair, his eyes, and his whole freaking face are physical features favoring the Starks.  What's left, the famous Stark ears?

[Bael's Bastard]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Seriously?  Did you just completely ignore the 6 quotes I just posted above.  His hair, his eyes, and his whole freaking face are physical features favoring the Starks.  What's left, the famous Stark ears?

Nothing you quoted supports your assertion. They just support what we all already know and take for granted, that Jon has prominent Stark features. That doesn't tell us whether anything physically about Jon takes after his other parent. Contrary to your hysterical responses, there's nothing controversial about the idea that a child will resemble both parents in some ways. None of our characters have any idea what to even look for in features of Jon's other parent.