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R+L=J v.166


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40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And I cannot even think of reason why anyone would feel the need to argue against that. There is no reason to think Rhaegar's parents would not talk to him about the promised prince prophecy.

The statement was that they were the only ones.
I have no problem with the idea that they might talk about tPtwP with him.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think we should keep in mind the trope of the self-fulfilling prophecy.

Which is something that George has already used with Melisandre/Renly for sure, but probably with Melisandre and the killing of Jon too. If you think about it, it's because of her visions that ultimatelly Jon is killed. Whatever she saw/felt, that led her into wanting to win Jon's trust, that to Mance's mission and finally to Jon's death.

That is to say, that I find unlikely that this trope and the idea that prophecies are a dangerous weapon (more than something that might be simply misinterpreted), are not going to have an inpact in the PTWP case.

Point being... what if Jon - once resurrected -  is the big villain?

That's my huge doubt at this point.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/10/2020 at 1:22 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Not a Wagner fan, eh?  

If you don't mind me chiming in... I can't see Jon Snow as Siegfried, but I can definitely see him as ... Parsifal.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/29/2020 at 11:17 AM, Julia H. said:

If you don't mind me chiming in... I can't see Jon Snow as Siegfried, but I can definitely see him as ... Parsifal.

Please elaborate.

ETA: I suppose it's only fair that I elaborate on my parallel to Siegfried.  In reality, I think the closer parallels for Jon rests in the Volsunga one of the Norse sagas that Wagner took his inspiration from.

In the Volsunga saga, King Volung's daughter Signy, is given over to King Siggeir in an arranged marriage.  Like Lyanna's arranged marriage to Robert, Signy is not happy with the arrangement.  Unlike Lyanna, she goes ahead with it.  

During the wedding, Signy's brother, Sigmund, also unhappy with the match, gives offense to King Siggeir.  In some tales, Siggeir's jealousy with Sigmund arises from Sigmund being able to free a sword, Gram,  embedded by a black cloaked stranger (Odin) into a tree, Barnstokk. 

Later King Siggeri lures King Volung, Sigmund and his brothers to his lands where he imprisons, them.  They are put in stocks and one after another become a meal to a giant she-wolf.

Sigmund is the last one left alive, when he is rescued by his sister, Signy who helps him kill the giant she-wofl.  Signy, still unhappy with her marriage to King Siggeir, sends her children with Siggeir to Sigmund to help him gain vengeance against her husband.  Each of her children fail, so she then tricks her brother Sigmund into having sex with her, and thereafter gives birth to Sinfjotli.  It's apparently noteworthy that Sinfjotli grows to be a powerful warrior since his has Volsung blood on both sides of his parents.  Sinfjotli's purpose in life becomes to take vengeance for the murders of his grandfather and uncles.  

In the Poetic Edda, Sinfjotli is accused of being a werewolf.  In some of the stories Sinfjotli gains possession of a wolf cloak which allows him to transform into a wolf.

After they take their vengeance on King Siggeir, (some of the stories attribute Siggeir's death to Signy who lights their house on fire, killing Siggeri, herself, and her children with Siggeir), Sigmund and Sinfjotli return home where Sigmund marries Borghild and have several children together.  However, Sigmund's new wife has nothing but hatred for Sigmund's son from another mother, and devises ways to try and poison Sinfjotli, eventually succeeding.

So here we have some repeating parallels with our story in ASOIF.  We have the idea of an arranged marriage, where the bride expresses resentment for the marriage.  We have a father and son(s) lured into the clutches of a king where they are executed.  We have a giant she-wolf, who's death starts a chain of events.  We have a character in Sinfjotli (the son of the lady who was the subject of the unwanted marriage) who can change into a wolf.  And finally we have this self same character who's father's new wife shows nothing but contempt.  

Later Sigmund remarries Hjordis and she becomes pregnant with their son, Sigurd (aka Siegfried).  Sigmund's sword Gram becomes shattered in battle and Sigmund becomes mortally wounded.  Sigmund gives the shattered sword to his wife, Hjordis, and tells her to keep the broken sword until it can be reforged and given to their unborn son, Sigurd.

When the broken sword is reforged it becomes more powerful than ever, and Sigurd/Siegfried uses the sword to help slay the dwarf turned dragon, Fafnir.  Later Sigurd finds the warrior maiden, Brynhild, and they end up having a star crossed love affair of their own.

Wagner took bits and pieces of the Volunga saga as inspiration.  His Siegfried is basically Sigurd combined with the origin story (at least the incest part) of Sinfjotli.  

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24 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

I hope he is but he still be a bastard in the books unlike the true born he was in the tv show..  

I tend to agree.  Whoever his father is, I hope that Jon's status as a bastard remains unchanged.  It would be a shame that Jon's worth in the story hinged on a legal fiction that he was only born after a religious ceremony validated his status as a person.

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On 6/9/2020 at 9:34 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I tend to agree.  Whoever his father is, I hope that Jon's status as a bastard remains unchanged.  It would be a shame that Jon's worth in the story hinged on a legal fiction that he was only born after a religious ceremony validated his status as a person.

But that is only bothering you if you care about Jon's parentage or legal status or fantasize about what both might do for his 'future career'. The world and the prophecy and destiny don't give two cents about mortal legal constructs and social conventions.

If Jon Snow is going to play a crucial role in the defeat of the Others then this is not likely to have anything to do with his legal status nor necessarily with his parentage.

Even if we got him as a dragonrider - there is no reason he has to know about his parentage for that, he could just end up in a situation where he has to choose between mounting a dragon or die. Or he might hang out with Dany, realize the dragons like him, and mount one without thinking about that he shouldn't be able to do that - there is no reason to believe he has any clue about dragonlore so far. People might then speculate that he might have Targaryen or dragonlord blood, but them speculating about the royal blood of Ulf, Hugh, and Nettles also didn't lead to them being proclaimed hidden princes, right? Jon's unknown mother could be some great-granddaughter of Aegon IV, or a descendant of some other prince, not to mention that she could be a highborn lady with legitimate Targaryen blood. Ashara Dayne could be a Targaryen descendant, if not by a Targaryen marriage into House Dayne, then by virtue of a daughter or son of Maron and Daenerys marrying into House Dayne.

There are many ways imaginable how Jon Snow could become a dragonrider without anybody believing that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I don't think Jon's true parentage is not going to come out, but I doubt it is going to have much (or any) relevance in the political field. Even in the prophecy/magic department it is not likely to change much since I'd imagine Jon wouldn't behave much different if he knew or believed he could be the promised prince. He would still try to his best to save mankind whether he thought he was 'something special in the magical department' or not.

In the political arena the belief that Jon is Robb's half-brother and possibly his anointed heir as a legitimized bastard of Eddard Stark might have more of an impact than the entire Rhaegar-Lyanna story since Jon Snow is effectively the only leader and possible factual head House Stark could have if/when Stannis is dead. He is a man grown and possibly a good general by then. Sansa and Rickon and Arya do not fit that profile - and most definitely not Brandon. Little girls and toddlers won't fight the Others and wights, adults will.

I could see Jon as Lord of Winterfell by the grace of Robb's testament, although I'm very sure he is not going to make himself a king - not just because this might get him to blows with Stannis while he is still alive (assuming this news travels to the Wall while Stannis is still alive) but also because it will close the door on any southern help Jon might ask Aegon or Euron or the Vale or anyone down there to provide. Making another King in the North will be sending the message 'the North is going to resolve its problem alone, and is able to hold the Wall alone against the ice demons' - and that will be suicide. Jon already understands that in ADwD.

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On 6/9/2020 at 12:34 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I tend to agree.  Whoever his father is, I hope that Jon's status as a bastard remains unchanged.  It would be a shame that Jon's worth in the story hinged on a legal fiction that he was only born after a religious ceremony validated his status as a person.


Yeah and the fact it just seems more realistic to me that he is a bastard too. I also don’t like the unpleasant consequences of what the annulment against Elia would do for the legitmancy of her kids with Rhaegar too (plus I like the idea of the chosen one being a bastard instead of a true born nobleman... lee sighs)

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19 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:


Yeah and the fact it just seems more realistic to me that he is a bastard too. I also don’t like the unpleasant consequences of what the annulment against Elia would do for the legitmancy of her kids with Rhaegar too (plus I like the idea of the chosen one being a bastard instead of a true born nobleman... lee sighs)

The annulment is a show thing. The books can pull the polygamy card - uncertain and disputable, but still a possibility for someone trying to do right by both his wife and his mistress.

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On 6/11/2020 at 12:59 PM, Ygrain said:

The annulment is a show thing. The books can pull the polygamy card - uncertain and disputable, but still a possibility for someone trying to do right by both his wife and his mistress.


I guess so, I just don’t think the faith would accept a polygamy marriage though. Cus Maegor the Cruel and all that jazz.

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On 6/17/2020 at 7:25 AM, GoldenGail3 said:


I guess so, I just don’t think the faith would accept a polygamy marriage though. Cus Maegor the Cruel and all that jazz.

Ever since its defeat, the Faith was turning a blind eye to the Targaryen incest. Some would probably continue to think that the Targs had their own rules, others would scream bloody hell, and most people would either shrug or try to gain some advantage for themselves. The precedens of the royal house founded by Aegon and his two sisters was never declared unlawful, so the outcome based on it could go either way.

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Put simply, Maegor had no descendants, and Visenya had no descendants other than Maegor, so the idea that the Targs ever agreed to accept upon themselves a ban on polygamy or the delegitimization of the fruits of polygamy is baseless nonsense. Literally Rhaegar and all his Westerosi Targaryen ancestors were a product of Aegon and his second sister-wife Rhaenys. This is the reality Rhaegar was born and raised in. 

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Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't marry publicly - and said marriage was accepted as a valid polygamous marriage by a majority of the people of Westeros - there is no chance that anyone will feel compelled to buy the 'Jon Snow is a royal prince' story. Especially not if the other hidden royal prince has just revealed to be a fraud. But even if it was public knowledge and widely accepted that Rhaegar and Lyanna had entered into a valid marriage, then people would have to want to believe that Eddard Stark's bastard wasn't Eddard Stark's son at all but a child of the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

And how likely is that?

It is just as likely as people buying that Cersei and Jaime are the parents of Robert's children because Stannis says so. Which they did not, last time I checked.

If the only sources for the Jon Snow thing are Wylla and Howland Reed then it is as likely that Jon Snow is seen as a royal prince as Alys Rivers' son is going to be seen as 'the rightful king' by the majority of Westeros.

And no, dragons are not going to change that - just as Hugh and Ulf and Nettles didn't become 'royal princes' just because they claimed some dragons once ridden by royalty.

The Jon Snow story is only going to be believed by the people who want to believe it - which should be a rather limited number in the books. Even Jon Snow himself is not likely going to keen the believe this weird, clichéd soap opera story. He wants to be Ned's son, not the son of this Rhaegar dude.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Literally Rhaegar and all his Westerosi Targaryen ancestors were a product of Aegon and his second sister-wife Rhaenys. This is the reality Rhaegar was born and raised in. 

And yet for all the times we see them discussing incest as it was nothing, not once polygamy has been treated as such. Jaeharys shut down his daughter and Alyssanne shut down Lucamore.

Jaeharys and Alyssanne set the bases of how their traditions were going to work and in the very deal of Exceptionalism, Polygamy is absent. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't marry publicly - and said marriage was accepted as a valid polygamous marriage by a majority of the people of Westeros - there is no chance that anyone will feel compelled to buy the 'Jon Snow is a royal prince' story. Especially not if the other hidden royal prince has just revealed to be a fraud. But even if it was public knowledge and widely accepted that Rhaegar and Lyanna had entered into a valid marriage, then people would have to want to believe that Eddard Stark's bastard wasn't Eddard Stark's son at all but a child of the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

And how likely is that?

It is just as likely as people buying that Cersei and Jaime are the parents of Robert's children because Stannis says so. Which they did not, last time I checked.

If the only sources for the Jon Snow thing are Wylla and Howland Reed then it is as likely that Jon Snow is seen as a royal prince as Alys Rivers' son is going to be seen as 'the rightful king' by the majority of Westeros.

And no, dragons are not going to change that - just as Hugh and Ulf and Nettles didn't become 'royal princes' just because they claimed some dragons once ridden by royalty.

The Jon Snow story is only going to be believed by the people who want to believe it - which should be a rather limited number in the books. Even Jon Snow himself is not likely going to keen the believe this weird, clichéd soap opera story. He wants to be Ned's son, not the son of this Rhaegar dude.

None of this speculation is relevant to the basic facts, which is that all Targs in our story are descended from the polygamous union between Aegon and Rhaenys. Whether Rhaegar wed Lyanna when he was already wed, whether anyone will find out Jon's paternal ancestry, whether Jon's paternal ancestry will play a major role in his story publicly (or just internally or privately) is all up for discussion. That all our Targs are legitimate descendants of polygamous marriage is not.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

And yet for all the times we see them discussing incest as it was nothing, not once polygamy has been treated as such. Jaeharys shut down his daughter and Alyssanne shut down Lucamore.

Jaeharys and Alyssanne set the bases of how their traditions were going to work and in the very deal of Exceptionalism, Polygamy is absent. 

Lucamore was not only not a Targ, not only married to multiple women, but a sworn KG. It was illegal for him from every possible angle.

Targaryens had good reasons to avoid polygamy by choice, without agreeing to any ban on or delegitimization of the fruits of Targaryen polygamy.

The legitimacy of every single Targ depends on the legitimacy of the fruit of Aegon's polygamy with Rhaenys.

There is zero hint Targs ever agreed to apply the Faith's ban on and delegitimization of polygamy to themselves.

Targs were in a position of power, were the defenders of the newly disarmed Faith, and the Faith was compelled to accept Targ exceptionalism.

Jaehaerys experienced first hand his father's half-sibling usurping and murdering his family, so has good reason to avoid repeating that situation.

But not at the command of gods or faith, or recognition of a ban which would delegitimize every single descendant of Rhaenys, mother of all Westerosi Targs other than Maegor.

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55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lucamore was not only not a Targ, not only married to multiple women, but a sworn KG. It was illegal for him from every possible angle.

And yet Alyssanne do acknowledges his first wife but she calls the rest mistresses and the children bastards. Someone who's been brought up to the idea that polygamy is good would have a less visceral reaction. And  while Alyssanne and Aenys seemed to have taught their children incest is ok, It doesn't seem so with polygamy.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Targaryens had good reasons to avoid polygamy by choice, without agreeing to any ban on or delegitimization of the fruits of Targaryen polygamy

Not only they avoid the polygamy by choice but it doesn't even seem to be an option, they don't discuss it, there is no "my sister tried to give me a love potion so i would marry her instead of my other sister, i remind her that i would marry them both" kind of talk.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The legitimacy of every single Targ depends on the legitimacy of the fruit of Aegon's polygamy with Rhaenys.

No, they can't be declared bastards retroactively. When Viserys 1 decided passing over his sons and remained adamant that his daughter was the heir apparent, people suddenly didn't call Rhaenys the rightful Queen and declare Viserys a false King for breaking the agreement over the Great Council of 101 and Jaeharys's precedent of the 98. Strangely so, this is also a common believe among the fandom and it's tossed around a lot 

No one would believe the Targs illegitimate if they banned incest from now on. 

 

 

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There is zero hint Targs ever agreed to apply the Faith's ban on and delegitimization of polygamy to themselves.

Targs were in a position of power, were the defenders of the newly disarmed Faith, and the Faith was compelled to accept Targ exceptionalism.

Jaehaerys experienced first hand his father's half-sibling usurping and murdering his family, so has good reason to avoid repeating that situation.

The very Exceptionalism tells about Jaeharys's ideas on the matter, the incest was publicly sanciones by the Faith, the 7 preachers only talked people into accepting Targ incest, yet the officialism never made such attempt with incest. That without saying that Jaeharys himself would forever link incest to Maegor.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But not at the command of gods or faith, or recognition of a ban which would delegitimize every single descendant of Rhaenys, mother of all Westerosi Targs other than Maegor.

Ditto. The polygamy doesn't seem to have been accepted ever by any religious or political institution after Maegor, which would've made it's legal status as very dubious at best, outright illegal at worst. The sin against the gods and abomination etc etc is a given.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't marry publicly - and said marriage was accepted as a valid polygamous marriage by a majority of the people of Westeros - there is no chance that anyone will feel compelled to buy the 'Jon Snow is a royal prince' story. Especially not if the other hidden royal prince has just revealed to be a fraud. But even if it was public knowledge and widely accepted that Rhaegar and Lyanna had entered into a valid marriage, then people would have to want to believe that Eddard Stark's bastard wasn't Eddard Stark's son at all but a child of the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

And how likely is that?

It is just as likely as people buying that Cersei and Jaime are the parents of Robert's children because Stannis says so. Which they did not, last time I checked.

If the only sources for the Jon Snow thing are Wylla and Howland Reed then it is as likely that Jon Snow is seen as a royal prince as Alys Rivers' son is going to be seen as 'the rightful king' by the majority of Westeros.

And no, dragons are not going to change that - just as Hugh and Ulf and Nettles didn't become 'royal princes' just because they claimed some dragons once ridden by royalty.

The Jon Snow story is only going to be believed by the people who want to believe it - which should be a rather limited number in the books. Even Jon Snow himself is not likely going to keen the believe this weird, clichéd soap opera story. He wants to be Ned's son, not the son of this Rhaegar dude.

Tell me more about the referandum on the paternity and legitimacy of Jon where every single Westerosi will vote.

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Targ didn't formally abolish polygamous marriages, they only decided to stop practicing this custom after Maegor. That means, he can wed a second wife as a Targ, especially if he becomes a king, it's a dangerous move of course but not impossible. However I don't think Lyanna would have approved that, because in that special case, Rhaegar won't sleep in a single bed and she wanted to avoid marrying Robert for this reason. Moreover, fathering a bastard doesn't line up with Rhaegar's goals, so the show version of this matter may not be that dumb. In all cases, hooking up with Lyanna was a terrible idea so it doesn't change anything.

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My 2p worth on the polygamy discussion is that it was never truly abolished. Sure, it hasn’t been done in a long time, but that doesn’t really mean much b/c the precedent is there and, as I and others have said, it was never made unlawful. 

In fact, I think that is very likely the route the whole R+L=J will go. And we don’t hear much about it either way b/c Martin doesn’t want to spoil it too soon. If Targs we’re still practicing it until recently, there would be no mystery, it’d be a sort of no brainer. At the same time, the text never explicitly states that it was officially banned or made illegal or whatever. 

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