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SFDanny

R+L=J v.166

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

AFfC, The Prophet

“Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain.”

 

Yes, the phrase is associated with childbirth.  My idea crashed and burned.

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3 hours ago, Daniel Newhouse said:

You mean other stories?  Like which ones?

No, elsewhere within ASoIaF. The quotes I gave you.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ is an awesomely useful tool. Type in bed and blood and tick all the books and it will find every paragraph which has the two words in it. Sometimes it gets 'similar' words as well, but it seems to reference blood and bloody differently, and needs a different search to find the bloody bed reference.

If you extend the search as well you find cross references to the "birthing bed". There is one where Irri says she heard the lamb woman say that she knew all the secrets of the birthing bed (which sounds like the MMD quote I gave you where she actually called it the bloody bed) and there's two where Euron and Randall Tarly both say something to the effect that a woman's war is in the birthing bed, which clearly matches the other ironborn quote I gave you about men fishing and farming while women bring forth children in beds of blood and pain.

Edited by corbon

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Ah, missed you, guys. May not have plenty of time for discussions but I'm back.

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ah, missed you, guys. May not have plenty of time for discussions but I'm back.

Welcome back, Ygrain! Haven't had much time for posting myself, but I check in once in a while to see if there is anything new or interesting. Hope all is well.

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13 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Welcome back, Ygrain! Haven't had much time for posting myself, but I check in once in a while to see if there is anything new or interesting. Hope all is well.

In the given limitations, not unwell.

Glad to see you :D:love:

 

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K, what this is theologically known as is a "blessed rape."  What does that mean?  I don't know.  You would need someone more knowledgeable about what that entails than me to describe it.

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2 hours ago, Daniel Newhouse said:

K, what this is theologically known as is a "blessed rape."  What does that mean?  I don't know.  You would need someone more knowledgeable about what that entails than me to describe it.

I think Ned rather disagrees with you.

Robert is really the only one who thinks rape, and even he knows deep down it was not, even if he can;t admit it to himself, as evidenced by his believing that Rhaegar are Lyanna were together in death - something associated with lovers, not raper and victim.
But because he was king his story became the official one.

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Just to make a mental note of it, from a search of ice and fire, here's the quote that I keep on missing:

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

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On 1/16/2020 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Newhouse said:

Just to make a mental note of it, from a search of ice and fire, here's the quote that I keep on missing:

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Not sure of the point. Is it that laurel is used to mean the crown of winter roses? The meaning of "laurel" is not just the specific plant from which the Ancient Greeks made a crown of leaves for the winners of contests. It has come to mean such a crown itself, not limited to the laurel plant. Is there another point I'm missing here?

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Not one I would know of. I think it is a part of the gradual reveal of the meaning of the blue roses - first just roses, then blue roses, then a garland of them, then a laurel, with an explanation that it is a crown. From what I can see about the use of the word laurel in the word search, GRRM doesn't use it often and only in connection with winning a tourney.

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On 1/27/2020 at 9:58 AM, Ygrain said:

Not one I would know of. I think it is a part of the gradual reveal of the meaning of the blue roses - first just roses, then blue roses, then a garland of them, then a laurel, with an explanation that it is a crown. From what I can see about the use of the word laurel in the word search, GRRM doesn't use it often and only in connection with winning a tourney.

:cheers:

GRRM uses laurel here to mean an honor awarded; i.e., Rhaegar honored Lyanna (with the QoLaB's crown) at Harrenhal. In ADwD we are told by Ser Barristan that the young and beautiful Ashara Dayne was dishonored at Harrenhal. It seems like GRRM might have set up a deliberate contrast here.

Since honor and dishonor are opposites, perhaps the acts themselves—Ashara's dishonoring and Lyanna's honoring—are somehow meant to contrast. For example, if we assume Ashara Dayne's dishonor was being bedded and possibly impregnated before marriage, then we could predict that any hypothetical bedding and impregnation of Lyanna would have taken place after marriage.

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On 3/3/2019 at 12:27 PM, SFDanny said:

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?

Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's CrannogmanHowland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

  Reveal hidden contents

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)

"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)

"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)

"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)

"R+L=J v.130" (thread one hundred thirty)

"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)

"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)

"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)

"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)

"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)

R+L=J v.136" (thread one hundred thirty six)

"R+L=J v.137" (thread one hundred thirty seven)

"R+L=J v.138"(thread one hundred thirty eight)

"R+L=J v.139" (thread one hundred thirty nine)

"R+L=J v.140" (thread one hundred forty)

"R+L=J v.141" (thread one hundred forty one)

"R+L=J v.142(thread one hundred forty two)

"R+L=J v.143" (thread one hundred forty three)

"R+L=J v.144" (thread one hundred forty four)

"R+L=J v.145" (thread one hundred forty five)

"R+L=J v.146" (thread one hundred forty six)

"R+L=J v.147" (thread one hundred forty seven)

"R+L=J v.148" (thread one hundred forty eight)

"R+L=J v.149"(thread one hundred forty nine)

"R+L=J v.150" (thread one hundred fifty)

"R+L=J v.151" (thread one hundred fifty one)

"R+L=J v.152" (thread one hundred fifty two)

"R+L=J v.153" (thread one hundred fifty three)

"R+L=J v.154" (thread one hundred fifty four)

"R+L=J v.155" (thread one hundred fifty five)

"R+L=J v.156" (thread one hundred fifty six)

"R+L=J v.157" (thread one hundred fifty seven)

"R+L=J v.158" (thread one hundred fifty eight)

"R+L=J v.159" (thread one hundred fifty nine)

"R+L=J v.160" (thread one hundred sixty) 

"R+L=J v.161" (thread one hundred sixty one)

"R+L=J v.162" (thread one hundred sixty two)

"R+L=J v.163" (thread one hundred sixty three)

"R+L=J v.164" (thread one hundred sixty four)

"R+L=J v.165" (thread one hundred sixty five)

 

There are thousands of posts across the internet that use this SSM as "proof" that Jon's parentage is the central mystery of the entire ASOIAF books. Yet it isn't even a quote from George RR Martin. It is the word of a fan that is recapping what he claims GRRM said...and obviously Howland "knowing too much about the central mystery" isn't in itself an indication of what that mystery is.

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27 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

There are thousands of posts across the internet that use this SSM as "proof" that Jon's parentage is the central mystery of the entire ASOIAF books. Yet it isn't even a quote from George RR Martin. It is the word of a fan that is recapping what he claims GRRM said...and obviously Howland "knowing too much about the central mystery" isn't in itself an indication of what that mystery is.

You should feel free to challenge anything in the opening thread, but please note that I'm not the author of this little part of it. It is the custom of everyone here to start a new R+L=J thread with somethings our little community thinks might be helpful to new participants, including links to the many threads that preceded this one. I don't endorse everything that everyone has contributed to that effort, even though I appreciate it.

Let me just say your response calls out the author of the SSM, but it doesn't say why you do so. Were you there in 2000 when Martin is reported to have said what he did? If not perhaps you might want to ask @Ran or one of the moderators from the time on why they posted this as part of the SSM catalogue. I don't have a clue why you would question this report. If you have something other than it is only "the word a fan" saying so, it might be worth while telling us. Otherwise, I'm really not sure of the value in making such a comments.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Let me just say your response calls out the author of the SSM, but it doesn't say why you do so. Were you there in 2000 when Martin is reported to have said what he did? If not perhaps you might want to ask @Ran or one of the moderators from the time on why they posted this as part of the SSM catalogue. I don't have a clue why you would question this report. If you have something other than it is only "the word a fan" saying so, it might be worth while telling us. Otherwise, I'm really not sure of the value in making such a comments.

I mean, @JEORDHl is still an active member of the forum...

It's so long ago that I wouldn't expect him to be able to remember whether "central mystery" was his editoralizing or not, but the fact that George has used the question of Jon's parentage as a litmus test for both his editor (whom he asked after she read the submitted draft of AGoT) and D&D (in their meeting when they pitched developing it) rather than "Who do you think tried to kill Bran?" is probably telling about the relative importance of the questions to understanding what he considers central to A Song of Ice and Fire. FWIW, both of those events happened long after the report in question (or rather, Anne Groell was asked before, but didn't mention it in public until a decade ago or so)

Edited by Ran

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48 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

There are thousands of posts across the internet that use this SSM as "proof" that Jon's parentage is the central mystery of the entire ASOIAF books. Yet it isn't even a quote from George RR Martin. It is the word of a fan that is recapping what he claims GRRM said...and obviously Howland "knowing too much about the central mystery" isn't in itself an indication of what that mystery is. 

:dunno:

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17 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

There are thousands of posts across the internet that use this SSM as "proof" that Jon's parentage is the central mystery of the entire ASOIAF books. Yet it isn't even a quote from George RR Martin. It is the word of a fan that is recapping what he claims GRRM said...and obviously Howland "knowing too much about the central mystery" isn't in itself an indication of what that mystery is.

I don't have them any more, mind [I'd taken notes] but it was a verbatim response to a question I'd asked him about Howland at a book signing in Victoria, BC. Beyond certain circles ASoIaF wasn't a huge noise back then, so there were maybe eight to dozen people there. We got to bug him for a while.

It's a direct quote.

Happy to help.

 

Edited by JEORDHl

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On 3/30/2020 at 7:46 AM, JEORDHl said:

I don't have them any more, mind [I'd taken notes] but it was a verbatim response to a question I'd asked him about Howland at a book signing in Victoria, BC. Beyond certain circles ASoIaF wasn't a huge noise back then, so there were maybe eight to dozen people there. We got to bug him for a while.

It's a direct quote.

Happy to help.

 

I never expected to get a response from you! Thank you very much! 

It certainly isn't your fault people attach it to the RLJ theory. It doesn't even mention Rhaegar, Lyanna or Jon. Or even reference parentage or hint at what the "central mystery of the series is". 

"We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book..."

 

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On 3/31/2020 at 5:37 PM, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I never expected to get a response from you! Thank you very much! 

It certainly isn't your fault people attach it to the RLJ theory. It doesn't even mention Rhaegar, Lyanna or Jon. Or even reference parentage or hint at what the "central mystery of the series is". 

"We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book..."

 

[chuckles]

Honestly, what do you think Howland might otherwise know that could be considered central beyond the happenings at the Tower of Joy?

The migratory patterns of Wyverns? Maybe Howland has secretly been at the Citadel all this time, forging his link on the elastrohydrodynamic properties of the oil that  Mopatis uses in his hair?

Please.

---

But yeah sure, why not. When George retroactively changes things up because of the show you can give everyone a big I told you so.

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3 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

[chuckles]

Honestly, what do you think Howland might otherwise know that could be considered central beyond the happenings at the Tower of Joy?

The migratory patterns of Wyverns? Maybe Howland has secretly been at the Citadel all this time, forging his link on the elastrohydrodynamic properties of the oil that  Mopatis uses in his hair?

Please.

---

But yeah sure, why not. When George retroactively changes things up because of the show you can give everyone a big I told you so.

The origin and motives of the Others / White Walkers maybe?

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