Jump to content
SFDanny

R+L=J v.166

Recommended Posts

On 3/11/2019 at 1:56 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Why does Eddard lead such a small, seemingly hand picked group of northern loyalists to the tower of joy?  Why would’t a larger force with some of Robert’s Men have accompanied them?  And for that matter, why wouldn’t Robert himself be there if this was a rescue mission for Lyanna?

Secrecy. We been over this, but once again, Ned's choice of both number and the identity of his six companions cries out the need to keep his trip secret. But not just secret from the surrounding hostile forces of Dorne who haven't yet bent the knee to Robert's new regime, but secret from Robert himself. These men are Ned's own bannermen who are sworn to him as their lord. He has spent the past year fighting a desperate war with most all of them (Brandon's squire Ethan Glover excepted who is most probably released from the Black Cells after the sack of King's Landing.) Beside Glover, they are all men pledged to him - Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ser Mark Ryswell, Lord Dustin, and Howland Reed, and who Ned has no doubt hand picked over many others to keep his secrets they see as they travel to Dorne. That there are no men from any other of the Seven Kingdoms, and especially anyone known to be close to Robert, should shout out the secret nature of the mission.

As to why not include Robert himself? The reasons are too numerous to detail. If Robert knows and goes he commands, not Eddard. Robert is still likely recovering from his wounds suffered at the Trident or he would have likely led the rescue of Storm's End and his brothers himself. Robert is too great a target to go on such a mission. Taking the new king hostage would shift the results of the war dramatically, while the holding of Ned Stark would only prolong the war until an invading army could be put into place. A number of other reasons Robert would not be included can be enumerated, but the overall story is one of of secret party traveling behind enemy lines and telling no one but themselves what they are doing and why.

On 3/11/2019 at 1:56 PM, Frey family reunion said:

And more practically, why would Rhaegar have placed Lyanna in the middle of a desert pass, which was primarily for passage of a Dornish army to invade Westeros.  A tower which was pulled down by Ned and used to make a measly 8 cairns

As I'm sure you know, there are quite a few gaps in our knowledge about this backstory. We keep getting little new clues and hints with every new volume of the story and sometimes from other sources like TWoI&F, the app, and the author himself. One of those sources gives us confirmation about the problems between Aerys and Rhaegar which may be the answer to your question. Specifically, the description in The World of Ice & Fire of the status of the court intrigue between the many forces fighting for control in Aerys's court speak to a land so divided politically that lords and petty lords have chosen sides between Rhaegar and those who would replace him as Aerys's heir.

One to the many things we don't know is whose land the Tower of Joy is located. But it is almost certainly under the control of some local lord. Why then would Rhaegar placed Lyanna here? Because he both values the remoteness of the location and the loyalty of the local lord in not spreading the word that Rhaegar, Lyanna, and two Kingsguard have taken over the tower to live in for an unknown period of time. Again, secrecy is the key, I think.

On 3/11/2019 at 1:56 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Assuming that Jon was in the tower, why would Eddard than risk a trip to Starfall through the red mountains with a baby, perhaps a wet nurse and his dead sister on the back of a horse?  Shouldn’t they have headed straight back to allied territory?  I mean Ned could have always arranged to have sent Dawn back by ship once he got his sister’s remains situated and figured out what to do with baby Jon.

And isn’t the idea of Ned riding into Starfall with his sister’s dead body a little ackward?

 

6 hours ago, JNR said:

It is to me.

The best explanation I've concocted is that (assuming she was at the TOJ at all), Ned rode her over to some local village with silent sisters, dropped her off, proceeded to Starfall, and then returned to find the silent sisters had finished.

Once again these are questions that have long been debated in these pages. I've raised them myself as have many others. There is little evidence to tell Ned's motives, but on these things we can be sure - Ned fights a battle at the Tower of Joy from which only he and Howland live, Ned and Howland and possibly others (the famous "they" there) pull down the tower and use the stones to build cairns for Hightower, Dayne, Whent, Cassel, Wull, Ryswell, Dustin, and Glover. At least Ned then travels to Starfall to return Dawn. And lastly, we know that sometime while Ned is there, Lyanna dies at the Tower of Joy. 

The why and the how of Ned's journey I think is part of Ned's plan to cover the identity of his new found nephew. I agree with you Ned could have sent Dawn to the Daynes at another time, but if he did so after appearing with Jon directly after the Tower of Joy events he as much as announces to the world that Jon is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's child. The how also mandates a wet nurse at the tower or nearby to travel to Starfall with Jon.

Regarding Lyanna's body, yes, it demands an explanation. One we don't have much evidence yet what is the answer. Again, the many debates I've participated in point out not only the possible location of Silent Sisters somewhere nearby, but also the ways in which a body can be reduced to bones without too much difficulty. Difficult for those close to the deceased, most likely, but not difficult to do. I will say I think the likelihood there were others at the Tower of Joy would help to explain some of this. Wylla the wet nurse to feed the infant Jon. Ashara to explain how Ned and Howland travel to Starfall with Jon and Wylla. I don't think they use Howland's magics. I think she opens the way for them to go there. I also think that it would be normal practice for a high born woman such as Lyanna to have a maester in attendance for the birth of her child. Even more so, if the child is the also Rhaegar's son. I have written before why I speculate that the prime candidate for such a maester is Marwyn the Mage. His generation's expert at all things to do with magic and prophecy and likely someone well known to Rhaegar and trusted by him. Also someone who disappears for a long journey abroad when anyone who knew anything about these events would be questioned.

I might as well place my speculation about Lyanna's bones return to Winterfell. I don't believe Ned would allow either baby Jon, Wylla, or Lyanna's bones anywhere near King's Landing and Robert's authority.  My guess is that Wylla is rewarded for her help and telling the story that Jon is her son by the Daynes acceptance of her into their household. I also think that once Ned, Howland, and Jon, along with a new wet nurse from Dorne arrive back at Storm's End where his norther army awaits him, that Ned sends Howland and perhaps others ahead to Winterfell with Lyanna's bones and baby Jon and his wet nurse. Ned goes to King's Landing with his troops and tells Robert of his journey and Lyanna's death.

I hope those facts and my speculation help you understand what I think happened here.

On 3/11/2019 at 1:56 PM, Frey family reunion said:

 

If Eddard had located Lyanna, knew she wasn’t a hostage but knew she had been pregnant, that goes a long ways in answering these questions.  It explains Robert swearing bloody vengeance on Rhaegar, it explains why no one seemed concerned about the repercussions of killing Elia and her children on Lyanna.  It explains why Ned chose a small party of loyal northerners to accompany him to the tower of joy.  They weren’t seeking to free Lyanna, they were seeking to get her son back.  Something Ned didn’t want Robert to know about.  

It explains why Eddard took this risky journey back to Starfall.  He wasn’t bringing a sword back to Ashara,he was bringing Jon back to Lyanna.  And it explains why the appendix says that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne.  She didn’t die at the tower of joy, she died at Starfall which is also located in the mountains of Dorne.

 

Eta:  and before I forget, this also could explain another interesting tidbit.  Why did Lord Dayne name his son and heir after Eddard?  Because Eddard killed Arthur?  Because Eddard’s was rumored to have dishonored Ashara? Is it all because Eddard risked all to bring Dawn back?  Or is there a more compelling reason?  Perhaps Ned knew that Lyanna was taken to Starfall, and perhaps he kept this information from Robert, saving Starfall from Robert’s wraith.  Something Eddard would have only done if he was convinced that Starfall was blameless, and looked after his sister, to the best of their ability.

I've answer the rest of this, I think, but the last.  To that, let me point out he doesn't have the same name. Eddard is not Edric. Perhaps that is as close to "Eddard" that parents of Edric felt they could use and have some semblance of denial of being too close to the killer of their brother, and perhaps their sister.

Edited by SFDanny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And lastly, we know that sometime while Ned is there, Lyanna dies at the Tower of Joy. 

Well, what we know is that Ned was present when Lyanna died.

To support the premise that that happened at the TOJ, we have, as primary evidence, a recurring dream that is clearly loaded with surrealism.  This doesn't rise to the level of knowledge.

More recently, there's also background information Ran dug up which specifies the TOJ as Lyanna's place of death... and which also states Jon is Ned's bastard, which I suspect you would not claim we "know." 

11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I agree with you Ned could have sent Dawn to the Daynes at another time

Not a thing I've ever said.  You seem confused in responding to multiple people.

11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

the ways in which a body can be reduced to bones without too much difficulty.

Uh huh.  These are ways that Ned could have used for the other eight corpses, too...

...and oddly, never chose to use, despite knowing for sure that those families would want the remains just as much as the Starks wanted Lyanna's. 

Why the double standard?

Ned certainly could have foretold that this would create conflict down the road.  We know factually it did in at least one case:

Quote

Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests

Lady Dustin was not best pleased.

So not only did Ned exhibit a peculiar double standard, if Lyanna died at the TOJ, but GRRM deliberately brought it to our attention in ADWD.

As for silent sisters local to the TOJ, they're about as good an explanation as can be found, and that's why I suggested them.  But there is zero canonical support, and the double standard above remains. 

If Ned could drop off Lyanna with the imaginary silent sisters, he could have done the same with the other eight corpses, but he didn't.  And if Ned could pick up Lyanna's remains on returning from Starfall, he could also have arranged for the other eight sets of remains to be delivered to their families as well, but he didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/12/2019 at 2:01 PM, SFDanny said:

Brienne in both her attempt to get Jaime to King's Landing across warring country and in her attempt to find Sansa ends quite badly for Brienne, and of course Jamie, Podrick, and Ser Hugh. Now, let's be fair to your point. Brienne has no magic. She's excellent in combat, but, as we see, that only gets her so far. She has some gold, and a letter from Jaime, but all that doesn't really help much. With the Sansa search she never really finds Sansa's trail and really blunders onto Arya's. But in both the Jaime and Sansa missions, they end in capture. I would note that they are both missions of much shorter duration than what you propose for Howland. But perhaps Reed's wilderness skills would help prevent him from being noticed in appropriate environs.

However, both Reed and Brienne stick out like sore thumbs in a crowd of people. Reed is set upon by the squires in Harrenhal for his obvious difference as a crannogman. While the antipathy he generates from those who hate his people may or may not be replicated in any run ins with the local populace on his way through the Reach and Dorne, I doubt they would be welcoming and trusting especially of obvious outsiders during a war.

On the question of river travel, I would only point out the huge difference between Howland's admitted skills among the bogs, fens, and slow moving waters of the Neck and the white waters of the Torrentine as it travels its course through the Red Mountains. I think it very likely Howland knows how to swim and paddle a boat, but other than that I can't think of skills that would have helped Reed very much.

I acknowledge that Brienne’s quest for her “holy grail” hasn’t been too successful, yet.  As for Howland, I don’t see any real issue for him in traveling through the Riverlands, and the Reach unnoticed.  I don’t really know why Howland would stick out.  I mean the crannogmen don’t have gills or pointy ears.  He’s basically just a short person.  And we’ve seen other diminutive men who make it a practice to travel around Westeros such as Tom Sevenstrings and Ser Shadrich.  Like I said before I think the reason that he stood out at Harrenhal, was that he didn’t appear to be a lord, or knight, or squire or servant.  And this tourney seemed to be an invite only of the upper crust of Westeros.

You bring up a valid point about the waters of the Torrentine being more difficult to traverse than the slow moving waters you’d find in the Neck.  Of course, it wouldn’t be a quest without some difficulties would it?  ;)  And we’ve been told that Howland’s skills are with boat and paddle moreso than horse.  So if Lyanna could translate her skills on horseback with being in a joust, I don’t see why Howland couldn’t translate his skill with boat and paddle with traversing the Torrentine.

On 3/12/2019 at 2:01 PM, SFDanny said:

I think your original idea of Howland finding Lyanna through the weirwoods has better possibilities. Not good possibilities, but better ones

I’m not saying he didn’t use a greenseer ability to try and find Lyanna.  Or perhaps he returned to the Isle of Faces and asked one of the Green Men for aid.  I’m just suggesting that it wouldn’t be necessary to use magical scrying to locate Lyanna.  My main hesitation is the limitations that looking through the weirnet seems to present.  The dearth of weirwoods would seem to limit what a greenseer could observe in the south. And of course a lot of it depends on if Lyanna was ever in front of a weirwood during her travels.  I would note, however, that Lyanna was “abducted” close to Harrenhal, and we do have a weirwood at Harrenhal.  So there is at least a possibility that any group Lyanna was traveling with may have made a stop at Harrenhal, since we know there is a connection with the Whents and Rhaegar.  Howland may have been able to observe an interaction that gave him a clue as to where they were headed.

On 3/12/2019 at 2:01 PM, SFDanny said:

The interesting quote by Robert I posted earlier, however, makes it clear that for much of the time, at least, while Lyanna is gone after the "kidnapping" Robert's interest is in getting her back and going through with the wedding. That and payback to Rhaegar for taking her in the first place and violating Robert's property rights to Lyanna.

I dont’ disagree that Robert at some point did hold out hope in getting Lyanna back where she could be his again.  I’m just questioning when that hope died.  I’m suggesting that the hope died when Robert vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.  My theory is that Robert found out that Lyanna was pregnant or gave birth to Rhaegar’s child.  Robert swears bloody vengeance.  Robert bemoans that killing Rhaegar couldn’t make Lyanna his again, as she was meant to be.  Killing Rhaegar didn’t change the fact that Lyanna was pregnant with or gave birth to a child of Rhaegar’s.  Similar to if Robert found out Lyanna died, Robert swears to kill Rhaegar for her death, he kills Rhaegar but bemoans that killing Rhaegar couldn’t bring Lyanna back to life. 

I think the key phrase isn’t necessarily that Lyanna returns, I think the key phrase is that Lyanna returns so that she belongs to Robert, as it was meant to be.  The question is, if Robert found out that Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar’s child, could Robert have ever been able to consider Lyanna his own again?  Or would that have ended the idea of being able to marry Lyanna?  I think reasonable minds can come to different conclusions on this part.

But I like your idea that Robert considers taking Lyanna a violation of his property rights.  I agree.  But taking that idea to the next step, if Robert found out that Rhaegar had impregnated Lyanna, what would Robert think the value of his property would be at that point?  Does Robert truly love Lyanna?  Or does Robert love the idea of a virginal Lyanna being his and his alone?

On 3/12/2019 at 2:01 PM, SFDanny said:

To your question about Lyanna being held hostage during the sack, let me ask you a few questions. When and where do we hear a threat to Lyanna's life from the loyalists? Has there ever been a threat made on Lyanna's life if the rebels don't lay down their arms and surrender? I've no doubt Aerys would have made one if he ever had control of Lyanna, but, as far as we know, Rhaegar never did. Why would Robert then expect to receive such a threat after the Sack when both Rhaegar and Aerys are dead? If she is still a hostage why doesn't whoever holds her try to negotiate? No, the evidence points to Lyanna not being held hostage, but instead being hidden away with her consent.

I think you are making my point for me.  We don’t ever hear about any hostage demands regarding Lyanna.  In my theory Lyanna isn’t a hostage.  Based on the fact that Ned seems to lay the blame of Lyanna’s early death on her own wildness, or wolf blood, I think we can make a reasonable theory that Lyanna willingly ran away with Rhaegar and his merry band.  

I’m also arguing that just like Lyanna isn’t a hostage, she also isn’t a love interest for Rhaegar, not to romance, not to marry etc.  The fundamental cornerstone of my theory is that Rhaegar is only interested in a child that Lyanna can bear.  Lyanna being secreted away from her family has more to do with protecting Lyanna’s unborn child from the fate suffered by Lsya’s unborn child, a dose of moontea, ordered by Rickard so he can keep a marriage alliance alive.

Once the child is born, the child is taken from Lyanna, and Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna, and the kingsguard’s interest in Lyanna ends as well.

But under the traditional theory where Lyanna is still considered a captive of the loyalists, Robert wouldn’t know that Lyanna wouldn’t be in danger.  Robert’s mindset appears to be that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped repeatedly by Rhaegar.  So not only does Robert think she is being held against her will, he thinks she is being repeatedly raped.  Under this mindset, if Robert still believes that Lyanna is a hostage, the murder of Elia and her children should put Lyanna’s life and safety in jeopardy if she were still believed to be a captive.   Yet there seems to be no concern or consideration of this point by anyone.

Which is another reason why I believe that Lyanna was located before the Trident, and Eddard at least came to the belief that she wasn’t being held captive, and she was being looked after.  But she was or had been pregnant.  So Eddard imparts at least some this information to Robert, and Robert goes berserk over Lyanna’s pregnancy.

On 3/12/2019 at 2:01 PM, SFDanny said:

Sorry, I have to run. Have a lunch date with my daughter and son. I'll try to finish later tonight.

Please, there are many more important things in life than responding to my silly musings.  And a lunch date with your children is definitely one of those. 

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One can try to explain away the connection Ned's POV makes between Lyanna's death and the tower of joy, but the connection is made nevertheless. And what is made explicitly clear since the AGOT Appendix is that Lyanna's place of death is stated to have been in the mountains of Dorne.

One can try to argue that the appendixes contain some information that is either a real world mistake, or is generally believed in world by the Westerosi, but suspected or know by readers to be incorrect, and that this information about the general location of Lyanna's death could potentially incorrect.

But in the cases where something in the Appendix appears to be a real world mistake, or an in-world mistaken belief, it is because we know it to be, or have good reason to suspect it is. Ned's dream and the AGOT and ASOS Appendixes indicate and tell us that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne, and there is nothing similar to call that into question, or to support an alternate location.

That said, even though I think Lyanna died specifically at the place Rhaegar named the tower of joy, and that this is indicated by Ned's dream, corroborated by the App, and apparently by a Stark family tree, it can be said that the mountains of Dorne cover a pretty large area of southern Westeros that would also include Starfall.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, what we know is that Ned was present when Lyanna died.

To support the premise that that happened at the TOJ, we have, as primary evidence, a recurring dream that is clearly loaded with surrealism.  This doesn't rise to the level of knowledge.

More recently, there's also background information Ran dug up which specifies the TOJ as Lyanna's place of death... and which also states Jon is Ned's bastard, which I suspect you would not claim we "know."

Sorry, the entire post was a response to @Frey family reunion, but  I included the quote from you because of your comment on carrying around Lyanna's body.  I did so because both of you raised the question. I should have been clearer to whom I was responding.

To you, @JNR, let me say what I think we know and what you think we know are obviously two different things. I don't rule out the evidence of the app, Ned's dream, the clear statement of the appendices, or @Ran comments on background information. All of which point to, or reinforce, the evidence pointing to the Tower of Joy as the place of Lyanna's  death. I don't ignore information unless there is evidence saying we should. That is lacking here, and substituting speculation instead of evidence is something I don't agree with. But @Bael's Bastard has posted a couple of posts now on this topic and I didn't want to duplicate his points. We can spend all of our time on this one point and we are never going to change each other's view.

6 hours ago, JNR said:

Not a thing I've ever said.  You seem confused in responding to multiple people.

It is in response to something  @Frey family reunion so I'm not confused, but I obviously didn't make it clear enough to whom this part of my text was responding.  Sorry again for engendering any confusion on your part.

6 hours ago, JNR said:

Uh huh.  These are ways that Ned could have used for the other eight corpses, too...

...and oddly, never chose to use, despite knowing for sure that those families would want the remains just as much as the Starks wanted Lyanna's. 

Why the double standard?

Ned certainly could have foretold that this would create conflict down the road.  We know factually it did in at least one case:

Lady Dustin was not best pleased.

So not only did Ned exhibit a peculiar double standard, if Lyanna died at the TOJ, but GRRM deliberately brought it to our attention in ADWD.

As for silent sisters local to the TOJ, they're about as good an explanation as can be found, and that's why I suggested them.  But there is zero canonical support, and the double standard above remains. 

If Ned could drop off Lyanna with the imaginary silent sisters, he could have done the same with the other eight corpses, but he didn't.  And if Ned could pick up Lyanna's remains on returning from Starfall, he could also have arranged for the other eight sets of remains to be delivered to their families as well, but he didn't.

Let me start with your question on why the "double standard?" Because in one case we are talking about Ned's sister and in all other cases we are not. There is indeed a double standard here, and quite an obvious one. Ned treats all the bodies of the dead with respect, but only his sister does he take special effort to transport to Winterfell for burial in the family crypts. Only a sister who would be buried where he wanted her to be, and perhaps where he promised to bury her. In times of war, the dead are too numerous to send all of their bodies back to their families. Could he have had whoever reduced Lyanna's body to bones do the same thing with eight other corpses? Perhaps, but as a said in my response to @Frey family reunion we don't know enough about the specifics to say why Ned chose not to do so. Only that he treated Lyanna's body differently than the others. What we can say about Lady Dustin's anger on the subject is that Ned did not treat any of the dead disrespectfully. Indeed the places in which the bodies lay were protect by the cairn's he and Howland raised at great effort and the families could travel to them and ask the local lord for access and for the ability to transfer the body back to their homes at any time after the war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Secrecy. We been over this, but once again, Ned's choice of both number and the identity of his six companions cries out the need to keep his trip secret. But not just secret from the surrounding hostile forces of Dorne who haven't yet bent the knee to Robert's new regime, but secret from Robert himself.

Yes I agree.  I think Ned was specifically trying to keep this quest a secret from anyone outside of those he implicitly trusted.  And yes I think he was specifically trying to keep this mission a secret from Robert.

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As to why not include Robert himself? The reasons are too numerous to detail. If Robert knows and goes he commands, not Eddard. Robert is still likely recovering from his wounds suffered at the Trident or he would have likely led the rescue of Storm's End and his brothers himself. Robert is too great a target to go on such a mission. Taking the new king hostage would shift the results of the war dramatically, while the holding of Ned Stark would only prolong the war until an invading army could be put into place. A number of other reasons Robert would not be included can be enumerated, but the overall story is one of of secret party traveling behind enemy lines and telling no one but themselves what they are doing and why.

None of these reasons are very compelling to keep Robert out of the loop on a rescue mission for his bride to be and now queen to be.  I think the only compelling reason to keep Robert out of the loop is that Eddard knew that at the goal of this mission was to rescue Lyanna’s son, not Lyanna.  Especially since Eddard might have believed that he was also Rhaegar’s child, or at the very least knew that it wasn’t Robert’s.  

 

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

One to the many things we don't know is whose land the Tower of Joy is located. But it is almost certainly under the control of some local lord. Why then would Rhaegar placed Lyanna here? Because he both values the remoteness of the location and the loyalty of the local lord in not spreading the word that Rhaegar, Lyanna, and two Kingsguard have taken over the tower to live in for an unknown period of time. Again, secrecy is the key, I think.

It’s actually a pretty rotten place to put Lyanna if secrecy is your main objective, or if Lyanna’s health and a successful pregnancy is a concern.  Especially since the Prince’s Pass is used for Dornish forces to invade Westeros.  Having an army traveling through that pass is hardly an ideal location to put your bride to be if you want her kept out of the way.  It’s also very possible that the rebellion forces could have brought troops through the pass as well, this location could have easily become a war zone.  In addition, I’m not sure where you would have gotten servants and maesters etc to care for Lyanna if the tower was in the middle of a desert pass.  If you are trying to actually care for Lyanna and ensure her pregnancy is successful, but also keep Lyanna in a remote location, I think Starfall is a much more logical choice.

 

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And lastly, we know that sometime while Ned is there, Lyanna dies at the Tower of Joy. 

My position is that we don’t know this as a fact.  I think a lot of people treat it as a fact but it really isn’t.  I think there are four reasons that the tower of joy is assumed to be where Lyanna dies.

1.  Ned’s dream.  I’ve discussed this ad naseum.  We can’t rely on a dream to provide an accurate location and chronology.  The scene in a dream can easily shift from one location to another and from one to day to another.

2.  The assumption that Ned’s motive for traveling to the tower of joy is to free Lyanna.  Without retreading my theory, I believe that the reason Ned travelled to the tower of joy was to take Lyanna’s child back.

3.  The appendix entry that says she died in the mountains of Dorne.  Yet as everyone seems to acknowledge Starfall is also in the mountains of Dorne, and we know Ned travelled there after the battle at the tower of joy.  The question is why?  Just to return a sword?  It seems unlikely and not very compelling.  But Ned traveling to Starfall makes more sense if Lyanna was at Starfall.  He would have hazarded the trip because he was trying to get her child back to her.

4.  Finally, why else would Rhaegar call it the tower of joy?  I do think it has to do with a birth, just not Jon’s birth.  I think it has to do with the birth of dragons, or more specifically The Dragon, the one with three “heads”.

 

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I hope those facts and my speculation help you understand what I think happened here

Just to make sure I understand your theory, are you suggesting that Ned never actually went to Starfall?

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I've answer the rest of this, I think, but the last.  To that, let me point out he doesn't have the same name. Eddard is not Edric. Perhaps that is as close to "Eddard" that parents of Edric felt they could use and have some semblance of denial of being too close to the killer of their brother, and perhaps their sister.

This is a fair point.  And I think I’m guilty of the same thing I’ve accused many others on this board of being guilty of.  Namely confusing a theory with something actually established in the text.  Going back and rereading little Ned’s conversation with Arya he doesn’t state that he was named after Ned, which I could have sworn he did.  But otherwise the coincidence is awfully interesting. 

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Perhaps, but as a said in my response to @Frey family reunion we don't know enough about the specifics to say why Ned chose not to do so. Only that he treated Lyanna's body differently than the others

This is another thing I like about my theory.  It does give a reason why Lyanna’s body was treated differently than the bodies of his companions and the three kingsguards.  Lyanna died at Starfall, a place where her body could have been properly prepared to be returned to Winterfell.  The others died in a desert in a mountain pass, and Ned and Howland couldn’t realistically do anything other than bury their bodies in the sand and mark their graves with cairns from a tower Ned pulled down himself.

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, what we know is that Ned was present when Lyanna died.

To support the premise that that happened at the TOJ, we have, as primary evidence, a recurring dream that is clearly loaded with surrealism.  This doesn't rise to the level of knowledge.

Not the dream itself, the description of the dream, by the  dreamer, who knows everything that is in it and what it is about.

Quote

Why the double standard?

Lyanna was not only his sister, but a non-combatant. 
Men go off to war all the time, and accept that there will often be no way to have their bones returned. Non-combatants and not-in-times-of-war, its a different story and there are expectations.

Quote

Ned certainly could have foretold that this would create conflict down the road.  We know factually it did in at least one case:

Lady Dustin was not best pleased.

I wouldn't trust Lady Dustin's reasons. She was already pissed at the Starks after Brandon took her maidenhood and she didn't get her prize, or even the second prize (or third, if you count Benjen).

We don't hear how the Wulls, Glovers, Ryswells etc are pissed at the Starks for not returning those bones. 
I don't think there is any real expectation that warriors at war will all get their bones returned. I don't think Lady Dustin is reasonable or representative here. I don't think it did create conflict, only bitterness in one already bitter woman. I don't think it was 'foreseeable' that it would create conflict.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

None of these reasons are very compelling to keep Robert out of the loop on a rescue mission for his bride to be and now queen to be.  I think the only compelling reason to keep Robert out of the loop is that Eddard knew that at the goal of this mission was to rescue Lyanna’s son, not Lyanna.  Especially since Eddard might have believed that he was also Rhaegar’s child, or at the very least knew that it wasn’t Robert’s.  

The "only"?

I should think the mere fact that Ned knew that Lyanna was not enamored of Robert, and maybe knew or suspected that she was with Rhaegar voluntarily, might be enough, regardless of any child existing or no.

There's a distinct chance Lyanna might have refused to marry Robert, period. In which case Ned will need to make other arrangements and keep them from Robert

Quote

It’s actually a pretty rotten place to put Lyanna if secrecy is your main objective, or if Lyanna’s health and a successful pregnancy is a concern.  Especially since the Prince’s Pass is used for Dornish forces to invade Westeros.  Having an army traveling through that pass is hardly an ideal location to put your bride to be if you want her kept out of the way.  It’s also very possible that the rebellion forces could have brought troops through the pass as well, this location could have easily become a war zone.  

I don't know..

If its a watchtower from the times when Dorne was at war with the other kingdoms (its old) then chances are high its not on the pass/road proper but on a high place overlooking the pass. 

Unless armies travelling through are expecting trouble as they pass through, an abandoned (and familiarly so) tower thats awkward to get to is not likely to garner much attention. 
Even more so for common travellers.
Sometimes hiding in plain sight is quite effective.
An isolated old tower that no one bothers with, in the middle of a reasonably well used pass that people can come and go from relatively freely without questions. Seems like a pretty good choice to me, combining secrecy and security with freedom of access.

Quote

In addition, I’m not sure where you would have gotten servants and maesters etc to care for Lyanna if the tower was in the middle of a desert pass.

Well, first note that its not 'a desert pass'. One end, the southern or 'desert' end is at Skyreach, known for its high perch and lofty towers. the other end is Nightsong, in the Dornish marches. From Skyreach the approach to the pass descends to the desert.
On either side of Starfall (though there may be other locations between them) are Skyreach and Kingsgrave, two significant seats.
House Fowler of Skyreach has led invasions of the Reach when they were kings and Skyreach is near a major river that flows to Yronwood.

The point is here that your characterisation of the Prince's Pass as a 'desert pass' which implies hostile desert environment and more or less deserted region, is clearly misleading. There are a number of major seats at either end and inside the pass, and no doubt lesser seats between them. Its also a relatively significant trade route, being the easiest way to travel between Dorne and the Reach.

Although I suspect most 'support' in the form of servants and staff, may have come through Starfall, there's no reason such would not be available relatively locally.

Quote

 If you are trying to actually care for Lyanna and ensure her pregnancy is successful, but also keep Lyanna in a remote location, I think Starfall is a much more logical choice.

Keeping her in such a public and well populated location is a major risk. Pretty much everyone on both/all sides would be interested to learn her location.

Quote

My position is that we don’t know this as a fact.  I think a lot of people treat it as a fact but it really isn’t.  I think there are four reasons that the tower of joy is assumed to be where Lyanna dies.

1.  Ned’s dream.  I’ve discussed this ad naseum.  We can’t rely on a dream to provide an accurate location and chronology.  The scene in a dream can easily shift from one location to another and from one to day to another.

Not Ned's dream. Ned's description of his dream. Its not the dream contents that place Lyanna there, its the fact that Ned's mind tells us, not inside the dream where dream-mode might be argued, but outside the dream, that this dream is all about Lyanna and her bed of blood.

Quote

3.  The appendix entry that says she died in the mountains of Dorne.  Yet as everyone seems to acknowledge Starfall is also in the mountains of Dorne,

Starfall is on the coast, on an island at the mouth of a major river. Its general geographic region is the mountains of Dorne, but its not actually in the mountains.

Quote

and we know Ned travelled there after the battle at the tower of joy.  The question is why?  Just to return a sword?  It seems unlikely and not very compelling.  

I don't think we have enough information to judge "it seems unlikely".

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is another thing I like about my theory.  It does give a reason why Lyanna’s body was treated differently than the bodies of his companions and the three kingsguards. 

Thats already covered. No additional reason is needed.

Edited by corbon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Indeed the places in which the bodies lay were protect by the cairn's he and Howland raised at great effort and the families could travel to them and ask the local lord for access and for the ability to transfer the body back to their homes at any time after the war.

To take this even further, I suspect he may have torn down the tower and raised the cairns in order to hide the evidence that a bloody childbirth had taken place. If the tower still stood, and anyone found Lyanna's bedchamber splattered with blood, they might deduce that a baby had been born. Safer to tear the whole thing down, and any remaining bloodstains could be attributed to the fight with the KG.

And I really don't think that these are memories of three separate incidents:

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the location of the tower of joy, it appears to be located midway between House Fowler of Dorne and House Caron of the Stormlands, with House Manwoody and the abandoned Vulture's Roost on the Wyl river being the closest known castles. And while Dorne currently has forces in both the Prince's Pass and Boneway, during Robert's Rebellion the 10,000 Dornishmen traveled up the Boneway to join Rhaegar's forces, and I don't recall any hint of notable Dornish activity in the Pass during that war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, corbon said:

The "only"?

I should think the mere fact that Ned knew that Lyanna was not enamored of Robert, and maybe knew or suspected that she was with Rhaegar voluntarily, might be enough, regardless of any child existing or no.

There's a distinct chance Lyanna might have refused to marry Robert, period. In which case Ned will need to make other arrangements and keep them from Robert

Not wanting Robert’s feelings to be hurt on the chance that Lyanna might spurn Robert isn’t a compelling reason to hide Lyanna’s rescue from Robert.  After all Lyanna’s safety should be paramount.  Let Lyanna and Robert hash things out only after you ensure she’s back safe and sound.  

 The only compelling reason for keeping this mission a secret is that you are trying to locate someone that Robert, if his reaction at King’s Landing was any indication, might be openly hostile to.  Someone that you don’t want Robert to know about.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I don't know..

If its a watchtower from the times when Dorne was at war with the other kingdoms (its old) then chances are high its not on the pass/road proper but on a high place overlooking the pass. 

Unless armies travelling through are expecting trouble as they pass through, an abandoned (and familiarly so) tower thats awkward to get to is not likely to garner much attention. 
Even more so for common travellers.
Sometimes hiding in plain sight is quite effective.
An isolated old tower that no one bothers with, in the middle of a reasonably well used pass that people can come and go from relatively freely without questions. Seems like a pretty good choice to me, combining secrecy and security with freedom of access

Why wouldn’t anyone bother with an isolated tower in a desert pass?  After all travelers always need shelter at night, it seems unlikely that people would pass up a chance to use a tower they expect to be abandoned.  Rhaegar’s just going to take a chance that a Dornish army passing through isn’t going to poke around?  What would happen if the rebellion had decided to send an army through the Pass to directly engage Dorne?  

Hiding in plain sight is quite effective?  Not really.  If you are trying to keep Lyanna out of the way, in a location that is difficult to access, yet where she can still be cared for by servants, maesters, etc. and be kept in a reasonable amount of comfort, Starfall definitely fits the bill.  It also just happens to be the home castle of Rhaegar’s most trusted confidant.  

Keeping her in an abandoned watchtower in the middle of nowhere while pregnant with your child, in one of only two passes where armies can travel to get to and from Dorne is the height of negligence.  

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Well, first note that its not 'a desert pass'. One end, the southern or 'desert' end is at Skyreach, known for its high perch and lofty towers. the other end is Nightsong, in the Dornish marches. From Skyreach the approach to the pass descends to the desert.
On either side of Starfall (though there may be other locations between them) are Skyreach and Kingsgrave, two significant seats.
House Fowler of Skyreach has led invasions of the Reach when they were kings and Skyreach is near a major river that flows to Yronwood.

The point is here that your characterisation of the Prince's Pass as a 'desert pass' which implies hostile desert environment and more or less deserted region, is clearly misleading. There are a number of major seats at either end and inside the pass, and no doubt lesser seats between them. Its also a relatively significant trade route, being the easiest way to travel between Dorne and the Reach.

Although I suspect most 'support' in the form of servants and staff, may have come through Starfall, there's no reason such would not be available relatively locally.

Well I’m sure the Prince’s Pass is a delightful honeymoon spot.  But there is no river, or any other sign of water in the Prince’s Pass.  The river you speak of is on the wrong side of the mountains.  And why would Rhaegar put Lyanna in the hands of the Fowlers, when he could put her in the hands of the Daynes?  We’ve been given no indication that any Fowler was a part of Rhaegar’s inner circle.  But Rhaegar’s closest friend and confident was a Dayne.  

And why bring staff, and servants from Starfall across the mountains and into the Prince’s Pass when you could have brought Lyanna directly to Starfall?

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Keeping her in such a public and well populated location is a major risk. Pretty much everyone on both/all sides would be interested to learn her location.

Do we know just how public or well populated Starfall is?  It’s on an island in the middle of a river in the middle of the mountains.  It’s actually one of the most remote and well guarded locations in Westeros. It’s unlikely that a large army can make its way through the mountains to reach her, and the rebellion would have had to have a sizeable navy which would have to traverse all the way around Dorne to try and approach Starfall by sea.  And even then, sea going ships would probably be unable to travel up the Torrentine. 

ETA: and actually the more I think about it, the more convinced that I’m right.  If Lyanna is the Prince’s Pass it is easy for an army of people to reach her.  No army is going to be able to get to her in Starfall, not without trying to get through the mountains.  There doesn’t appear to be any significant route over land that will allow an army to reach Starfall.

(You can make a similar argument as to why Petyr risks bringing Sansa to the Eyrie.  After all there are many people who are interested in learning her location. ) 

I think practically speaking you have to bring Lyanna to a castle so she can be adequately cared for during her pregnancy.  You just have to choose a castle controlled by people you trust.  I don’t think there is anyone that Rhaegar trusts more than Arthur Dayne.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Not Ned's dream. Ned's description of his dream. Its not the dream contents that place Lyanna there, its the fact that Ned's mind tells us, not inside the dream where dream-mode might be argued, but outside the dream, that this dream is all about Lyanna and her bed of blood.

I see what you’re trying to argue but it’s not exactly accurate.  The POV chapter starts out as a description of a dream like you say, but at some point, we’re put directly into the dream, and we know this because we’re with Ned when he stops dreaming and wakes up.

Quote

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.  

“I promise,” he whispered.  “Lya, I promise...”

”Lord Eddard,” a man echoed from the dark.

Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes.  Moonlight streamed through the tall windows of the Tower of the Hand.

But regardless it doesn’t really matter does it?  Whether Ned is describing his dream or actively dreaming his dream.  At no point does Eddard’s memory confirm that Lyanna died at the same location that the battle took place.  It merely confirms that Eddard has a recurring dream of three knights in white cloaks, a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.  These images are definitely connected by Ned’s dream, but that doesn’t mean they are also connected in time and place.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Starfall is on the coast, on an island at the mouth of a major river. Its general geographic region is the mountains of Dorne, but its not actually in the mountains.

No, take a look of the map in Lands of Ice and Fire.  Starfall is located in the middle of a river in the middle of the mountains.  There are mountains, north, south, east, and west of Starfall.  It’s just as much in the mountains as the Prince’s Pass is within the mountains.  ETA:  Starfall is not at the mouth of the river.  Starfall is located whee the river widens but it’s considerable north of the mouth.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I don't think we have enough information to judge "it seems unlikely".

It’s kind of a big problem for the traditional theory that Eddard found mother and son within the tower isn’t it?  Because when you really think about it, it doesn’t make any sense for Ned and Howland (and wet nurse I presume) to take baby Jon with them across the mountains to Starfall just so they can return a sword.  It requires a lot of contortions to try and have that make any sense.  Which is why I’m giving you a compelling reason for Ned to get to Starfall after the battle at the tower of joy.  He was trying to reunite his sister with her son.  Admit it, this makes a good amount of sense.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Thats already covered. No additional reason is needed

Hasn’t been covered very satisfactorily at all.  It makes more sense that Lyanna wasn’t treated the same as Eddard’s companions because they died under very different circumstances and locations.  Lyanna died at Starfall, Ned’s companions died in the Prince’s Pass.

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, corbon said:

Keeping her in such a public and well populated location is a major risk. Pretty much everyone on both/all sides would be interested to learn her location.

Not to mention that Starfall is the home of Rhaegar's best pal - the first place people will come asking when Rhaegar goes missing. It would be a terrible risk to both Rhaegar and Arthur's family for providing shelter, and I don't think Rhaegar would want to put the Daynes in such a situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aside from that, people seem to forget that Ser Arthur, like Ser Oswell, controlled no lands, least of all Starfall, being one of Aerys's KG and all, not to mention Starfall being sworn to the family of Rhaegar's wife Elia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might have made sense for Ned to have 2-3 men of his group aiming bow and arrow at the Sword of the Morning when facing him. Casualties could have been avoided. Just saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not to mention that Starfall is the home of Rhaegar's best pal - the first place people will come asking when Rhaegar goes missing. It would be a terrible risk to both Rhaegar and Arthur's family for providing shelter, and I don't think Rhaegar would want to put the Daynes in such a situation.

You make it seem like Starfall is just down the road.  It’s completely enclosed by the Red Mountains of Dorne.  So absent a naval excursion around Dorne and straight into waters controlled by the Arbor and Old Town, no one is going to “come asking”.  At the very most you might be able to get a small group to travel there, but unless they’re invited in, they’re not going to be allowed in.  You’re not going to be able to get a large force through the mountains.  

As for Rhaegar putting the Daynes in such a situation, I beg to differ.  Rhaegar put all of Westeros into open warfare by “abducting” Lyanna in the first place.  I think it’s very posssible that Rhaegar believes his actions are for the greater good.  If Rhaegar is indeed trying to bring about the Prince that Was Promised prophecy he’s operating under the belief that the Long Night is coming and the Prince that was Promised is necessary to win the Battle for the Dawn.

With that in mind, he’s going to turn to the people he trusts the most.  And there is no one he trusts more than Arthur Dayne.  And keep in mind that Arthur’s sister Ashara is also Elia’s lady in waiting.  There isn’t a castle in Westeros that Rhaegar would trust more than Starfall with Lyanna.  Certainly not King’s Landing, under the control of his mad father.  

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Aside from that, people seem to forget that Ser Arthur, like Ser Oswell, controlled no lands, least of all Starfall, being one of Aerys's KG and all, not to mention Starfall being sworn to the family of Rhaegar's wife Elia.

Yes, Ser Oswell didn’t “control” Harrenhal, yet by all accounts Lord Whent hosted the Harrenhal tourney at the request of Rhaegar.  So it’s evident that these Kingsguards hold a lot of sway with their old households.

Couple that with the fact that Ser Arthur is the Sword of Morning of Dorne, and a legend in Westeros, he’s obviously going to hold a lot of sway at Starfall.  I don’t think that there is a household in Westeros, including his own, that Rhaegar would have a stronger alliance and trust with.

And I do want to turn back to the idea of Starfall being too populated and public to bring Lyanna to.  Starfall isn’t a city, or a town.  Starfall is a castle on an island in the mountains.  It’s going to be a fairly tight knit group in the castle.  Especially considering how remote this castle is from the rest of Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes I agree.  I think Ned was specifically trying to keep this quest a secret from anyone outside of those he implicitly trusted.  And yes I think he was specifically trying to keep this mission a secret from Robert.

We agree.

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

None of these reasons are very compelling to keep Robert out of the loop on a rescue mission for his bride to be and now queen to be.  I think the only compelling reason to keep Robert out of the loop is that Eddard knew that at the goal of this mission was to rescue Lyanna’s son, not Lyanna.  Especially since Eddard might have believed that he was also Rhaegar’s child, or at the very least knew that it wasn’t Robert’s.

My point really was that there are many reasons not to include Robert in such a mission of limited force and maximum secrecy, but the main reason is that Ned doesn't trust Robert's reaction to what he thinks he might find. I think first and foremost is that Ned knows Lyanna's objections to Robert and very likely that she never wanted to marry him. He also likely knows of her attraction at Harrenhal to Rhaegar. All of which means he expects to find Lyanna not only not wanting anything to do with going back to a marriage with Robert, especially after Robert has killed her lover at the Trident, but Ned also must consider that it is possible that Lyanna could be pregnant. So, I don't have an objection to the idea might also have a concern for a child, if such a child exists, but I would say Ned's main motivation is still, at this point, his sister. There is nothing to show that at this point of the story Ned knows Lyanna is pregnant with Rhaegar's child, or that she has given birth.

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s actually a pretty rotten place to put Lyanna if secrecy is your main objective, or if Lyanna’s health and a successful pregnancy is a concern.  Especially since the Prince’s Pass is used for Dornish forces to invade Westeros.  Having an army traveling through that pass is hardly an ideal location to put your bride to be if you want her kept out of the way.  It’s also very possible that the rebellion forces could have brought troops through the pass as well, this location could have easily become a war zone.  In addition, I’m not sure where you would have gotten servants and maesters etc to care for Lyanna if the tower was in the middle of a desert pass.  If you are trying to actually care for Lyanna and ensure her pregnancy is successful, but also keep Lyanna in a remote location, I think Starfall is a much more logical choice.

Perhaps we have a very different idea of the purpose and therefore location of the tower that Rhaegar has renamed the "tower of joy." One does not build a single small tower in the middle of a large well traveled pass to control the flow of invading armies. This is almost certainly a watchtower overlooking the Prince's Pass for the purposes of observation and the rely of information concerning troop movements through the pass. For such a purpose one builds a tower in a remote location with a view of the Pass, not to station large number of troops or to use the tower as a place to stop troops invading Dorne with the power of its fortifications. This is much more Standfast and not Helm's Deep. Only it is Standfast with long disuse and partially fallen and with a great view and hidden from travelers along the road of the Prince's Pass. As such, it is a pretty good place to be hidden from view and have a view of travelers, or searchers, especially if it is chosen with support of the local lord.

The source of help could well be a mixture of the surrounding population, again if one has the support of the local lord, and supporters who have come to help Rhaegar that he trusts. As such it should be little problem for someone like Rhaegar to get such help.

As to Starfall being a much more logical choice, I would beg to differ. Controlling the wagging tongues of the people Starfall and its visitors are extremely challenging things to do. Especially since one of those forces who have a problem with Rhaegar running away with Lyanna are the Martell brothers in Sunspear.

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My position is that we don’t know this as a fact.  I think a lot of people treat it as a fact but it really isn’t.  I think there are four reasons that the tower of joy is assumed to be where Lyanna dies.

1.  Ned’s dream.  I’ve discussed this ad naseum.  We can’t really on a dream to provide an accurate location and chronology.  The scene in a dream can easily shift from one location to another and from one to day to another.

2.  The assumption that Ned’s motive for traveling to the tower of joy is to free Lyanna.  Without retreading my theory, I believe that the reason Ned travelled to the tower of joy was to take Lyanna’s child back.

3.  The appendix entry that says she died in the mountains of Dorne.  Yet as everyone seems to acknowledge Starfall is also in the mountains of Dorne, and we know Ned travelled there after the battle at the tower of joy.  The question is why?  Just to return a sword?  It seems unlikely and not very compelling.  But Ned traveling to Starfall makes more sense if Lyanna was at Starfall.  He would have hazarded the trip because he was trying to get her child back to her.

4.  Finally, why else would Rhaegar call it the tower of joy?  I do think it has to do with a birth, just not Jon’s birth.  I think it has to do with the birth of dragons, or more specifically The Dragon, the one with three “heads”.

1. No one needs use the dream to verify chronology or location. Those are already verified in non-dream formats.

2. I understand the speculation, but there is really nothing of evidence to back it up. The quotes in the book all run the other way. That it is Lyanna that Ned - and Robert - is looking for.

3. I think it is very much a stretch to call Starfall "in" the Red Mountains. The Dayne's certainly control land in the Red Mountains but Starfall itself is described as being on an island at the mouth of the Torrentine River as it empties into the Summer Sea. Perhaps on the border of the Red Mountains, but not "in."

4. I think you read Rhaegar wrong. Yes, he, is dutiful to what the prophecy tells him he must do, but getting joy from it? No, the joy is found in the love of Lyanna. And as to sequence, Rhaegar is long gone when Jon is born.

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Just to make sure I understand your theory, are you suggesting that Ned never actually went to Starfall?

No, not at all. Ned obviously goes to Starfall when he returns Dawn to the Daynes. The story Ned's troops tell verify this sequence. As do other things.

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is a fair point.  And I think I’m guilty of the same thing I’ve accused many others on this board of being guilty of.  Namely confusing a theory with something actually established in the text.  Going back and rereading little Ned’s conversation with Arya he doesn’t state that he was named after Ned, which I could have sworn he did.  But otherwise the coincidence is awfully interesting. 

We agree again, including that the coincidence is, as you say, "awfully interesting."

Edited by SFDanny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, Ser Oswell didn’t “control” Harrenhal, yet by all accounts Lord Whent hosted the Harrenhal tourney at the request of Rhaegar.  So it’s evident that these Kingsguards hold a lot of sway with their old households.

@Frey family reunion

That's far from true. I happen to believe that Rhaegar was the person, or one of the people, behind the staging of the Harrenhal Tourney, but that is by no means something agreed upon "by all accounts."

Maester Yandel tells us that most believed Lord Whent himself staged the tourney. And while he tells us that the idea of a shadow host was and still is widely believed, dozens of names have been put forth by those who believe there was such a shadow host. Yandel believes the most compelling put forth is Rhaegar, but he also states there isn't a shred of evidence that there was a shadow host at all.

It can't be taken for granted that Lord Whent staged the Harrenhal Tourney because of any sway Ser Oswell held with him. Literally the only thing we know is that Lord Whent announced the tourney shortly after a visit from Ser Oswell. We can speculate about a connection between Ser Oswell's visit and Lord Whent's announcement, but there is no certainty that the two things were truly connected, let alone that they all connect to prove Ser Oswell held a lot of sway with his house.

But even if we assume that they were connected, and that Lord Whent staged the tourney because of something Ser Oswell conveyed or relayed to him from Rhaegar, neither that nor the friendship between Rhaegar and Ser Arthur proves or even really supports the idea that Lord Dayne would risk the wrath of his liege lord of House Martell and/or his king Aerys by publicly or secretly welcoming the then-disappeared Rhaegar and his kidnapped hostage/mistress into Starfall. Nor does it prove or support the idea that Rhaegar would have considered it a safe place to go or bring Lyanna under the circumstances.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Couple that with the fact that Ser Arthur is the Sword of Morning of Dorne, and a legend in Westeros, he’s obviously going to hold a lot of sway at Starfall.  I don’t think that there is a household in Westeros, including his own, that Rhaegar would have a stronger alliance and trust with.

Friendship with a knight of the Kingsguard can't automatically be extrapolated into an alliance and trust with the house of that Kingsguard, especially under these circumstances. I am not arguing that it is not possible that Lord Dayne and Starfall aided Rhaegar and Lyanna at some point in some way(s), but that can't be assumed just because of Rhaegar's friendship with Arthur.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And I do want to turn back to the idea of Starfall being too populated and public to bring Lyanna to.  Starfall isn’t a city, or a town.  Starfall is a castle on an island in the mountains.  It’s going to be a fairly tight knit group in the castle.  Especially considering how remote this castle is from the rest of Westeros.

Starfall is the castle of one of the principal houses sworn to House Martell, which by that point was highly pissed off at Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. That's a risky place to take the kidnapped hostage you had infamously crowned queen of love and beauty at the Harrenhal Tourney months earlier.

It's not some abandoned tower in the middle of nowhere (which, amusingly, you are trying to argue would be less risky). There is no telling what loyalties the people who dwell in or around the castle, or who travel to or around the castle, might have, or who they might be willing to sell the knowledge of Rhaegar's and/or Lyanna's presence to.

The possibility is something Rhaegar would have had to consider whether or not anyone in or around Starfall would have actually sold them out. It's a huge risk. Much more so than an abandoned tower on the borders between Dorne and the Stormlands, which might even be accessible via the Wyl river from the Sea of Dorne, which is accessible from the Stormlands, whether leaving from somewhere along the coast, or leaving via the Slayne river.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Regarding the location of the tower of joy, it appears to be located midway between House Fowler of Dorne and House Caron of the Stormlands, with House Manwoody and the abandoned Vulture's Roost on the Wyl river being the closest known castles. And while Dorne currently has forces in both the Prince's Pass and Boneway, during Robert's Rebellion the 10,000 Dornishmen traveled up the Boneway to join Rhaegar's forces, and I don't recall any hint of notable Dornish activity in the Pass during that war.

And, as you corrected me a while back, the tower itself is in Dorne. So, if we are looking for the local lord on whose lands it lays, the Manwoodys or one of their pledged landed knights might be a good bet. I again like the comparison to Standfast. but this time the local lord would not live in the tower of Joy but have his own version of Standfast or something perhaps a little larger. This is a remote location.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Let me start with your question on why the "double standard?" Because in one case we are talking about Ned's sister and in all other cases we are not. There is indeed a double standard here, and quite an obvious one.

What's obvious is that this policy would be a serious issue in dealing with other families than his own.

It would have been obvious to him as well, and likely would have been seen as so fundamentally unfair as to defeat his sense of personal honor.  The canonical emphasis on returning the remains of highborn deceased to the proper families comes up again and again.

Furthermore, we know Ned, driven by his honor, went to the extreme trouble of returning Lady Dustin's horse:

Quote

Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell.

That's remarkable -- more than a thousand miles of caretaking in order to get that done.  But he didn't bother with the bones of her husband?  Oh, dear.

Now since it can't be disputed that Ned did build the cairns, that coming from his waking memory and not the dream, I think the odds are strong Ned did not know of any local silent sisters and did not believe any other means of treating the remains for travel was available (or he'd have used it). 

He evidently believed in the circumstances the best thing he could do for the remains was build the cairns, so that's what he did. 

But that also implies he simply did not have that problem to deal with in Lyanna's case. Which in turn implies that she did not die there.

18 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Perhaps, but as a said in my response to @Frey family reunion we don't know enough about the specifics to say why Ned chose not to do so. Only that he treated Lyanna's body differently than the others.

Well, that's just it.  We don't know he treated Lyanna's body differently, because we don't know where she died.

If I were forced to guess, I'd say it was the TOJ... but that's only because of the dream, which is indicted by its own surrealism as trustworthy or accurate. 

As for the app, what we do know is that it contains information even its creator (Ran) doesn't believe.  The app's info is clearly similar to the appendices, which lack any POV, and therefore can't be assessed for accuracy, and almost certainly only reflect what is widely believed, not what is true. 

I think it would be fair to say it is widely believed in Westeros, since the war, that Lyanna died at the TOJ.  Whether she did, we will have to wait to see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not to mention that Starfall is the home of Rhaegar's best pal - the first place people will come asking when Rhaegar goes missing. It would be a terrible risk to both Rhaegar and Arthur's family for providing shelter, and I don't think Rhaegar would want to put the Daynes in such a situation.

It's not as if the word gets out that Rhaegar and Lyanna are in Starfall that the Daynes can say "oops, we never noticed they were here." Nor could they have told either Aerys or the Martells if word got out that they would not turn them over. Going to Starfall is a very bad idea for both Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×