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SFDanny

R+L=J v.166

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13 hours ago, Br16 said:

Responding to the book possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married somehow:

Royal assent seems to be a big part of whether royal marriages are valid or not (like Harry needing the Queen's permission to marry Meghan), considering that Aerys II and his Small Council were not informed by Rhaegar of this unconventional secret marriage, I feel that Jon Snow 's claim to the Iron Throne is very shaky. If Aerys had okayed it then Jon would be in line after Elia's son. After all, the King is the law.

I feel that this fact is the biggest problem affecting Jon's claim since all the other controversial aspects (such as polygamy) could be overridden by Targaryen power, but the Sovereign's consent is something so fundamental in a monarchy not even the Crown Prince could cast it aside, and no Sovereign or allow to be flouted. 

Actually, we see a couple of examples of people deciding to ask forgiveness rather than permission, and though their royal father was wroth, the marriage was not invalidated. The king would probably be able to remove the rebellious offspring from the succession, but as @SFDanny points out, Rhaegar probably intended to depose Aerys and grant himself whatever permission he needed.

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On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 12:19 PM, Ygrain said:

However, the biggest problem with these five guys is that none of them explain why Ned keeps obsessing about Lyanna's blue roses, and not only roses as such but a crown of blue roses. Individual blue roses could be interpreted as a connection to Mance via the Bael story but a crown of them doesn't fit with the wildling story. Throughout the books, there is just one crown of blue roses, and that is the QoLaB laurel from Harrenhal, and just one other person related to that crown, guess which. No need for timelines, merely checking the boxes which information is or isn't present.

It seems strong wording to say Ned is "obsessing" over a "crown of blue roses". Yes, Ned does think of blue roses a couple times, and we know that has some significance to the Stark's even before the incident at Harrenhal, (as you mention, we have the Bael Tale and the Stark Maid but we also have the fact that blue roses only seem to come from the glass gardens at Winterfell, and only bloom under certain unknown circumstances) but he only thinks of the "crown" twice, and that is in the same chapter, his last in the story, when he is sick and angered and lamenting the past. The blue roses certainly seem to tie to Lyanna in Ned's memory a couple of times, but the crown only slightly. And Ned also associates the wording "flowers" and "roses" with no color distinction to Lyanna as well. Those are not all clearly blue rose hints, but certainly can be interpreted that way if we so choose.

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 9:08 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, incest is an abomination in the North.  It would also be an strong motivation for Ned to keep Jon’s parentage a secret from everyone, including, and especially his wife, Cat.

Absolutely!

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 2:15 PM, Ygrain said:

RLJ is full of such fun moments (e.g. Robert's remark about kings hiding under snow, or Jon's comment that bastards are not allowed to beat princes in regard to Joffrey), and you would find plenty others for practically any parentage that you might take as a premise.

These come down to interpretation. Jon does have king imagery, but it might be as King of Winter. After all, Aemon Targaryen tells Jon his importance as a leader at the wall is because he is a "son of Winterfell", and Jon also has Corn King imagery hovering around him (:() and it's ironic that Joffrey turns out to be a bastard born of incest, not a true born prince, but it doesn't mean the inversion works for Jon, making him a true born prince instead of a bastard. It might just mean that "bastards" can beat each other silly. But you are correct when you say that these items of foreshadowing can be interpreted in many ways and for many theories, but until we get the conclusion of our story from GRRM, all they are is theories.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:03 AM, Ygrain said:

When Jon goes all berserk on Alliser Thorne, or nearly beats Emmet to a pulp, that is not Ned Stark behaviour. That is uncontrolled rage, more like waking the dragon moments.

Ned does have a couple moments of rage, although he does hold it together physically. Although, rage might be an explanation for Ned beating Arthur Dayne in single combat, when it seems alluded to in the text that Dayne was the superior swordsman!

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He had only to look at Sansa's face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. AGOT-Eddard IV

Rage twisting inside of him is strong imagery, and it's not the first time. It's again, indicating more than once has this rage twisted inside of Ned.

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He descended the tower steps in a red rage. He had led searches himself for the first three days, and had scarcely slept an hour since Arya had disappeared. AGOT-Eddard III

Ned thinks of himself in a "red rage" which has always stood out to me, far more than the hints of "cold rage" or rage that "froze hard inside him". What might have happened if Ned had arrived in the hall at Darry to find that Cersei's plan to have Arya's hand cut off had already been done? We might have seen a very "berserker" moment in play? Of course, we will never know, because thankfully Arya kept her hand.

We also have this:

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That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again. AGOT-Catelyn II

This is an example of Ned's "ice" anger, but it stops Catelyn in her tracks. Cat is a conniving meddler from way back and truly doesn't ever show much fear, but she was so frightened by Ned's reaction, that she dropped it. Fourteen years and she left it dropped! Now, I know it can and has been argued that this reaction is more about Ashara than Jon, but Ned tells her to never ask about Jon's again! He meant it and she stopped!

ETA: A time when we see Ned act with physical rage is when he shoves Littlefinger up against the brothel and puts a dagger under his chin. Ned is so angry and focused that it takes him a long moment to recognize Ser Rodrik, a man who he has known for years, and Ned's first reaction to being interrupted is to whirl about with his dagger prepared to fight, perhaps to kill. What might have happened to Littlefinger if Ser Rodrik had not intervened? This seems like a reaction from Ned that could be described as raging. It's certainly not cool or thoughtful, which is how Ned acts when Jaime initially attacks him in the street.

 

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:03 AM, Ygrain said:

And as for the Stark family looks: Ned, Jon and Arya all look alike but Ned says that Arya looks like Lyanna - meaning, Ned, Arya, Jon and Lyanna all look alike, with the long face, brown hair and grey eyes.

This has always been interesting to me. This connection of looks. Yes, we are told that Arya looks like Lyanna (although we weirdly never have a physical description of Lyanna in the text to confirm this), and Jon looks like Ned, which we are told time and time again, as well as having physical descriptions to back it up. But with this information, the inference is make that Jon looks like Lyanna. Arya looks like Ned. Jon and Arya look alike and therefore Lyanna and Ned look alike. Okay! You know who else looks alike? Jaime and Cersei, so much so that at times as children they could even fool their father! What do we know about Jaime and Cersei? And the looks of their children? It's a pretty striking family resemblance.

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:03 AM, Ygrain said:

John's dream about the crypts might turn out prophetic, which is Targaryen trait, and the dream when he is defending the Wall has nothing Starkish about it - he has an armour of black ice and a red sword, which are both Targaryen traits (Rhaegar's black armour, PTWP/AA's flaming sword)

Well, there is nothing very Targaryenish about wearing "ice" armor, even if it's black. And we don't have any precedent for the Targaryen's wielding a red sword. We do have two swords currently in the story that are a combination of red and dark grey ripples, "night and blood" (but technically this "night" is very dark grey), but those swords are made from Ice, a point that seems to be often forgotten in the "Jon is a Targaryen" arguments and was baptized in the blood of Eddard Stark. The sword in Jon's dream is also described as "burning" never on fire or flaming, and one thing we learn in the Game Prologue is that "nothing burns like the cold"! I know Jon dreams his sword is Longclaw, but so far nothing in Longclaw tells us it will be anything but dark grey Valyrian steel. However we have Oathkeeper:

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"The colors are strange," he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore.  ASOS-Tyrion IV

This is what the blade looks like in the sunlight. What might it look like in the darkness?

 

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:03 AM, Ygrain said:

It is clear that Ned loved his sister dearly but there is nothing improper towards her in his thoughts and it would be incosistent with his code of morals and honour. We know that something troubled his sleep, he lied about something for fourteen years and had some dangerous secret(s), but nothing indicates the shame and guilt that breaking such a huge social and religious taboo should prompt in a man of conscience like him.

Ned feel's "sick" when talking to Cersei about the confirmation of her and Jaime's relationship, after thinking "the truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces". I admit it is totally vague, but it certainly brings out a visceral reaction in Ned. "Ned felt sick". We also get this, "the thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him …" Again, vague, and GRRM is very good at that. But "sick" when thinking of incest children combined with "shame" and "sorrow" when thinking of Jon are very interesting.

Why does Ned feel shame? I know many argue that Ned is ashamed of keeping Jon from the throne, but that doesn't really seem like Ned to me. He wields power but as a duty, not a pleasure. Keeping Jon from the throne would not cause him shame, at least I don't see it that way. And yes, I know this is pesky personal interpretation in play again. Anyway, something in thinking of Jon Snow makes Ned feel shame. That is the only time that Ned feels personal shame in the story and that seems important.

Why sorrow? Sorrow is tied to grief or loss. This is also the only time Ned feels personal sorrow, which also seems important. Shame could be related incest and so could feeling sick and sorrowful. And the shame and sorrow are directly tied to Ned thinking of Jon Snow, who looks and acts so much like Eddard Stark.

*ETA*

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:03 AM, Ygrain said:

Plus, Ned himself has no connection to a crown of winter roses, either, and when Cersei asks him about his children, he doesn't include Jon in his mental list. And that one time he scared Catelyn, he said "Jon is my blood", not "son", which is a weird thing for a parent to say.

Ned doesn't mentally think of children from his body, he thinks of "the life of some child I did not know", and then he does list is trueborn children with Catelyn. It is weird that he does not name Jon, since he calls Jon his son in our very first Bran POV, but it's also odd he refers to children that he does or doesn't "know" since he plainly knows Jon Snow.

As to the concept of "my blood", that does come up a couple times in our story.

 
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Aye," said Craster. "I gave you all I could spare, but winter's coming on, and now the girl's stuck me with another squalling mouth to feed."
"We could take him," someone squeaked.
Craster's head turned. His eyes narrowed. He spat on Sam's foot. "What did you say, Slayer?"
Sam opened and closed his mouth. "I . . . I . . . I only meant . . . if you didn't want him . . . his mouth to feed . . . with winter coming on, we . . . we could take him, and . . ."
"My son. My blood. You think I'd give him to you crows?"
"I only thought . . ." You have no sons, you expose them, Gilly said as much, you leave them in the woods, that's why you have only wives here, and daughters who grow up to be wives. ASOS-Samwell II

 

 
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Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son. He tried to bring the boy's face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei's. ASOS-Jaime VII

Whether calling a son of your body "my blood" seems unusual or not, we have two examples in the text that GRRM gives us when a father indeed refers to their son as "my blood". These are subsequent textual examples that could very well let us know that Ned is Jon's biological father.

 

Sorry for the long post. I am certain most of my points and arguments have been hashed to death over the course of all the RLJ threads, but nothing is conclusive in the text or we would not still be talking about this. All we all have currently are theories and until we get more from the author, we will probably continue to spin ourselves in circles discussing different interpretations of the same material. :fencing: :cheers:

 

Edited by St Daga
ETAx2

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17 hours ago, St Daga said:

It seems strong wording to say Ned is "obsessing" over a "crown of blue roses". Yes, Ned does think of blue roses a couple times, and we know that has some significance to the Stark's even before the incident at Harrenhal, (as you mention, we have the Bael Tale and the Stark Maid but we also have the fact that blue roses only seem to come from the glass gardens at Winterfell, and only bloom under certain unknown circumstances) but he only thinks of the "crown" twice, and that is in the same chapter, his last in the story, when he is sick and angered and lamenting the past. The blue roses certainly seem to tie to Lyanna in Ned's memory a couple of times, but the crown only slightly. And Ned also associates the wording "flowers" and "roses" with no color distinction to Lyanna as well. Those are not all clearly blue rose hints, but certainly can be interpreted that way if we so choose.

If you take a closer look at the distribution of information, it starts with flowers and roses with no specification of colour. Then, it becomes blue roses (and those keep popping up most often). Then it's a garland of blue roses. And finally, the reveal comes - the queen of beauty's laurel, where it was gifted, and by whom. It is staged as a gradual reveal.

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Ned does have a couple moments of rage, although he does hold it together physically. Although, rage might be an explanation for Ned beating Arthur Dayne in single combat, when it seems alluded to in the text that Dayne was the superior swordsman!

Definitely not, as Ned says explicitely that he survived only thanks to Howland's intervention, the manner of which is yet to be revealed.

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ETA: A time when we see Ned act with physical rage is when he shoves Littlefinger up against the brothel and puts a dagger under his chin. Ned is so angry and focused that it takes him a long moment to recognize Ser Rodrik, a man who he has known for years, and Ned's first reaction to being interrupted is to whirl about with his dagger prepared to fight, perhaps to kill. What might have happened to Littlefinger if Ser Rodrik had not intervened? This seems like a reaction from Ned that could be described as raging. It's certainly not cool or thoughtful, which is how Ned acts when Jaime initially attacks him in the street.

   

This is a gross misinterpretation. He doesn't recognise Ser Rodrik because he had shaved. Ned is undoubtedly enraged but he never loses it. Here you have what Jon does:

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”
No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. “I’m sorry,” he muttered. “Emmett, are you hurt?”
Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. “Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?”

Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off.
 

Especially in the first instance, Jon totally loses control and takes his frustration out on Emmett. If Ned was in such a mode when he put the dagger under LF's chin, he wouldn't have registered Rodrik's words at all, just like Jon never registered Emmett saying 'yield'.

 

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This has always been interesting to me. This connection of looks. Yes, we are told that Arya looks like Lyanna (although we weirdly never have a physical description of Lyanna in the text to confirm this), and Jon looks like Ned, which we are told time and time again, as well as having physical descriptions to back it up. But with this information, the inference is make that Jon looks like Lyanna. Arya looks like Ned. Jon and Arya look alike and therefore Lyanna and Ned look alike. Okay! You know who else looks alike? Jaime and Cersei, so much so that at times as children they could even fool their father! What do we know about Jaime and Cersei? And the looks of their children? It's a pretty striking family resemblance.

Not really seeing your point. The look that Ned, Arya and Jon share is a long face, grey eyes, brown hair. We don't need a description of Lyanna to confirm what her own brother claims about her looks. For the similarity to work, Lyanna must have had a long face, as well, with possible variation of eye/hair shade. The overall likeness doesn't make Jona child of incest, though, as Arya is apparently not a result of incest or Ned's parthenogenesis, and nor are her Tully-looking sibling the result of Cat with Edmure.

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Well, there is nothing very Targaryenish about wearing "ice" armor, even if it's black. And we don't have any precedent for the Targaryen's wielding a red sword. We do have two swords currently in the story that are a combination of red and dark grey ripples, "night and blood" (but technically this "night" is very dark grey), but those swords are made from Ice, a point that seems to be often forgotten in the "Jon is a Targaryen" arguments and was baptized in the blood of Eddard Stark. The sword in Jon's dream is also described as "burning" never on fire or flaming, and one thing we learn in the Game Prologue is that "nothing burns like the cold"! I know Jon dreams his sword is Longclaw, but so far nothing in Longclaw tells us it will be anything but dark grey Valyrian steel. However we have Oathkeeper:

This is what the blade looks like in the sunlight. What might it look like in the darkness?

Emphasis, on black, as in Rhaegar's armour (as well as Baelor's, since black is a Targaryen colour), and the red sword is supposed to be wielded by the PTWP, who is supposed to be Targaryen. Red and black, Targaryen colour, red sword, Targaryen prophecy about a Targaryen. Colours. 

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Ned feel's "sick" when talking to Cersei about the confirmation of her and Jaime's relationship, after thinking "the truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces". I admit it is totally vague, but it certainly brings out a visceral reaction in Ned. "Ned felt sick". We also get this, "the thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him …" Again, vague, and GRRM is very good at that. But "sick" when thinking of incest children combined with "shame" and "sorrow" when thinking of Jon are very interesting.

Incest can produce the feelings of shame and sorrow, but shame and sorrow do not necessarily indicate incest.

Being sick means being disgusted. That does not equal being ashamed. Plus, Ned is disgusted with Cersei's incest but not with his own? And if he felt incest was disgusting, why start it in the first place? Feeling disgusted over someone doing exactly what he did himself would make him a terrible hypocrite, yet nothing in his PoV suggests him being one. He is a man troubled by his faults, he does not lie to himself or look for excuses.

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Why does Ned feel shame? I know many argue that Ned is ashamed of keeping Jon from the throne, but that doesn't really seem like Ned to me. He wields power but as a duty, not a pleasure. Keeping Jon from the throne would not cause him shame, at least I don't see it that way. And yes, I know this is pesky personal interpretation in play again. Anyway, something in thinking of Jon Snow makes Ned feel shame. That is the only time that Ned feels personal shame in the story and that seems important.

Ned never told Jon who his mother was, and it troubled Jon. A damn good reason to feel ashamed.

 

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Ned doesn't mentally think of children from his body, he thinks of "the life of some child I did not know", and then he does list is trueborn children with Catelyn. It is weird that he does not name Jon, since he calls Jon his son in our very first Bran POV, but it's also odd he refers to children that he does or doesn't "know" since he plainly knows Jon Snow.

That child he doesn't know is putting himself in Cersei's shoes - for her and Jaime, Bran is a stranger that can be sacrificed to protect their children.

Also, it is not weird that Ned calls Jon "son" in front of people - that's what he claims Jon is, so that's what he calls Jon. Not listing Jon among his children in his inner monologue, though, does require attention.

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As to the concept of "my blood", that does come up a couple times in our story.

Whether calling a son of your body "my blood" seems unusual or not, we have two examples in the text that GRRM gives us when a father indeed refers to their son as "my blood". These are subsequent textual examples that could very well let us know that Ned is Jon's biological father.

Only, in both your quotes, the respective fathers do call their children "my son", as well. Ned does not. Moreover, he calls Jon "my blood" and not "my son" in an emotionally charged situation when people tend to blurt what's on their mind. 

 

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Sorry for the long post. I am certain most of my points and arguments have been hashed to death over the course of all the RLJ threads, but nothing is conclusive in the text or we would not still be talking about this. All we all have currently are theories and until we get more from the author, we will probably continue to spin ourselves in circles discussing different interpretations of the same material. :fencing: :cheers:

 

Well... I could be pointy why we are still talking about this, but whatever. :cheers: If you are genuinely interested, throw it in, I just hope I won't lose again something I had been typing for an hour.

Edited by Ygrain
the internet ate half my post :-(

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21 hours ago, St Daga said:

he only thinks of the "crown" twice, and that is in the same chapter, his last in the story, when he is sick and angered and lamenting the past

This is a critically important point: Ned thinking about the crown doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Jon's parentage.   He could quite simply have been thinking of that crown as a symbol of the war it helped inspire, and the blood shed in that war.

Much the same concept, in fact, is overtly implied by Theon's dream in ACOK:

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But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

Theon, as far as I recall from canon, has zero secret knowledge of Jon's parentage in his head. 

Yet there he is, dreaming of Lyanna wearing the crown in a gown spattered with gore... rather like Ned dreaming of touching the crown and bleeding after cutting his hand.

 

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On 5/31/2019 at 11:44 AM, St Daga said:

This could also be the "wolf blood" in him, something Ned noted in Brandon and Lyanna's personalities, and also noticed in Arya to some extent. We twice hear of Brandon's "fierce" reactions to something he did not like, and while we don't know about how that rage effected strength, most people who have a rush of adrenaline also have a rush of great strength.

I agree with what Ygrain said, how the reactions of the Starks when angry still fall within the realm of normal, but a teenager who looses all awareness and takes down a fully grown man, and master of arms at that, needing to be restrained forcibly before he even becomes aware of his surroundings is something very different. 

And while I have heard of people getting adrenaline fueled strength in rare, normally life threatening circumstances, where was the threat when sparring with Emmet? He got hit on the helmet and snapped into a memory and lost all awareness of where he was and what he was doing, their was no danger, he wasn't feeling threatened or scared. But something happened and it seems linked to rage, based on how he was thinking, no not enough, it's never enough, in regards to being asked if her heard Emmet yielding, and his friends saying that's enough.

That reaction from Jon isn't the Jon we've seen throughout. And adrenaline doesn't explain everything that happened.

On 5/31/2019 at 11:44 AM, St Daga said:

Ned also has dreams of the crypts. We don't know them in great detail but we know they exist. He refers to the "frozen hell" reserved for the Stark's of Winterfell (the crypts),as well as dreams of "snow and the quiet of the wolfswood", "old dreams" that leave him "weak as a kitten", "dark, disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises", as well as dreams we are not given the details of that occur both in the barrowlands and in Kings Landing that leave him unsettled or unrested. These could also be prophetic dreams, and dreaming is certainly not exclusive to Targaryen's.

Sure, dreams, green dreams, lots of people have dreams I never said any different. But there aren't lots of people dreaming of dragons, and there aren't lots of people dreaming of someone melting and having their flesh slough off their bones turning into a thick red bubbling pool when he refuses to kiss them, because of worry and shame over his father watching, and not wanting a bastard. It's not that he has dreams, it's what's in them. Ned's are all about things linked to the north, or his family, not a dragon or girl melting from the heat, or wielding a burning sword while yelling feed them fire. It's that these dreams are a bit fire and blood esque that is interesting, not the fact that he has dreams, or even prophetic ones. That's pretty standard stuff in this story.

On 5/31/2019 at 11:44 AM, St Daga said:

Jon certainly seems to be affected quite significantly to his burns from fighting Othor the Wight. Something we do not see in Dany, even when she has burns on her hands after riding Drogon out of the fighting pits in Meereen. 

Dany grabbed a spear that was a bit hot from Drogons blood and got blisters on her palms that did bother her, as she wrapped them and thinks on how much they've improved but we don't see her in the healing process. Jon grabbed a ball of fire and used it as a weapon giving him burns over every inch of skin from the tips of his fingers to his elbow and we are in his head as he's healing. Context makes a huge difference here. What is significant is that he felt no pain while grabbing the fire, only while healing. Most people would never be able to stick there hand into a fire like that and pick it up because the heat would trigger their instinctive reflex to pull back. But he never felt the heat, or any pain while being burned. I don't think they are that different.

On 5/31/2019 at 11:44 AM, St Daga said:

Of course, this idea is based on a theory that the wall blocks warg activity, which might not be the case. We have an example of Bran being able to communicate with both Ghost and Jon in a dream, while Bran is in the crypts of Winterfell and Jon is ranging in the Frostfangs, so the wall didn't stop that, nor does the wall seem to stop Bloodraven from sending dreams to people south of the wall.

Green seer is different from warg/skin changer. Jon saw Bran as a tree, he likely was connected to the Winterfell heart tree, not summer or was using the tree to bypass the wall. Bloodraven, is a greenseer in a tree. The 'theory' as you put it, is based on how Jon's powers were shown to work/not work in specific instances, and how that contrasts with Arya in Bravos, showing that range isn't a factor for wargs, so when Jon can't feel Ghost on the other side of the wall, or can't feel the other wolves there must be another explanation than distance. When he is north of the wall, he can't sense the other Stark direwolves, at all. He thinks about this, and is focused on it when he talks to Bran, who has no wolf smell, only death and soil, and looks like a tree. Then when Jon climbs the wall, he can't sense Ghost. He worries about where he is and if he understood to go to Castle Black from the moment they were separated. When they reunite he goes north of the wall, and sits to think. After he's been there a bit he senses ghosts hunger, so Ghost likely was staying close to the wall and sensed Jon when he went north. When Bran goes north Jon notes that he can't sense Summer anymore. Jon spells it out for us, the wall is a barrier to his ability. What Bran and Bloodraven can do is irrelevant, since Jon's thoughts have made it clear that he can't sense the wolves from the other side of the wall.

On 5/31/2019 at 11:44 AM, St Daga said:

As to Jon's "berserker" moments, the first time Jon has a bout of "berserker" rage and strength is at Castle Black against Ser Aliser, and Ghost might not be in the scene, but he is certainly near. The second time is when Jon beats the tar out of Iron Emmett. Ghost is on the opposite side of the wall, but he is very close at this time, and only a few pages later, is reunited with Jon. Jon senses him well before he sees him, which might be a hint that Ghost was calling to Jon during the incident with Iron Emmett. The interesting thing about these two moments, at least to me, is that they are triggered by concerns that affect Jon's Stark feelings. The first is in response to Ser Aliser calling Ned a traitor and the second is the memory of Robb saying his mother said that Jon cannot have Winterfell because of his bastard birth. It "Stark issues" that ignite this defensive rage in Jon Snow! Maybe this is an issue of "Waking the Wolf" within Jon?

Or it's just that the Starks, as his family, are what make him emotional, since he has a deep emotional bond with them and with Winterfell, since it's his home. I don't see why a link to the berserker mode would be based on him worrying about Stark issues specifically, as apposed to the strength of his emotions in general. 

But, what I'm curious about is what will this allow him to do in the future books? Regardless of what side of his family it all comes from. All the main characters with magic have something unique to them. Bran is a green seer, Arya can control wolves and cats, Dany hatching dragons is obvious, Jons seems to be this berserker mode. And Bran, Dany and Jon all seem to get visions. Starks are good with cold, Targs good with heat. It has to add up to something right?

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Just saying, IF it truly turns out R+L=J, i would love to see Jon’s real name is Daeron, taking after the prince who conquered Dorne at the age of 14, rather than Aegon as in the show. Why? Firstly I think it’s kinda ridiculous to have another son named Aegon, which can lead to confusion and, if we look back to the past Queen Alicent, whose son was named Aegon (sorry if I misspell the name), outraged when princess Rhaenerya also took that name for her son later. Secondly less persuasive but Daeron I  is whom Jon admires so I think it’s...let say beautiful if Jon’s real name is Daeron.

Just my feeling :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's entirely plausible that Lyanna could have named Jon Aegon if Lyanna gave birth and named the child after the Sack of King's Landing.

yes it is if they didn't plan the names together when she was pregnant. I mean I would like him to be named Daeron rather than Aegon :))

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I don't think Lyanna would give her son a Targaryen name, I don't think she'd call him Aegon when Rhaegar already had one son named Aegon, I'm not sure she would know the baby died, I'm not sure she lived long enough after giving birth to think about names, and if Rhaegar had any input about names then he obviously would've been thinking Visenya.

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6 hours ago, Saer said:

then he obviously would've been thinking Visenya.

No. There's really nothing obvious about that. I'd buy it if Rhaegar had named Rhaenys 'Visenya' but he didn't.

I don't know why what Kevan Lannister's thoughts on Rhaegar wanting sons get completely dismissed.

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2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know why what Kevan Lannister's thoughts on Rhaegar wanting sons get completely dismissed.

Why would Kevan Lannister be an authority on Rhaegar Targaryen's inmost thoughts?

And I'd assume he only started thinking his son was the promised prince after he saw the comet, so he wouldn't have been thinking of his kids as the three before that. 

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8 hours ago, Saer said:

I don't think Lyanna would give her son a Targaryen name, I don't think she'd call him Aegon when Rhaegar already had one son named Aegon, I'm not sure she would know the baby died, I'm not sure she lived long enough after giving birth to think about names, and if Rhaegar had any input about names then he obviously would've been thinking Visenya.

She had married a Targaryen and become pregnant with a Targaryen child, so there's no reason to think she would have drawn the line at a Targaryen name. After all, regardless of the first name, the child would still have been X of House Targaryen

Lyanna definitely had access to information about the sack of KL via Ned who was with her when she died.

23 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's entirely plausible that Lyanna could have named Jon Aegon if Lyanna gave birth and named the child after the Sack of King's Landing.

Exactly. Coincidentally, or not, it just so happens there is a hint it was Lyanna who named him, and she called him something other than Jon Snow.

Samwell Tarly nodded. "I … if you want, you can call me Sam. My mother calls me Sam."

"You can call him Lord Snow," Pyp said as he came up to join them. "You don't want to know what his mother calls him." - AGoT, Jon IV

 

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1 minute ago, J. Stargaryen said:

She had married a Targaryen and

:lol:

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3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

No. There's really nothing obvious about that. I'd buy it if Rhaegar had named Rhaenys 'Visenya' but he didn't.

I don't know why what Kevan Lannister's thoughts on Rhaegar wanting sons get completely dismissed.

There were two  born at ToJ they're given names Aemon and Visenya as named by their dead parents Rhaegar and Lyanna only to be renmed by Eddard Stark Jon Snow and by Howland Reed Meera Reed.

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3 hours ago, Saer said:

Why would Kevan Lannister be an authority on Rhaegar Targaryen's inmost thoughts?

He's not, but I have a problem with the use of the word "obviously," because it's a speculation. The bottom line is that we don't know what Rhaegar wanted. But I don't think something that Kevan Lannister who may have had a conversation or two with Rhaegar should be dismissed off hand for whatever reason. He has no reason to distort his thoughts. 

Anyway, doesn't really matter. I just hope those seeds that GRRM has been planting have finally grown into a garden.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

He's not, but I have a problem with the use of the word "obviously," because it's a speculation. The bottom line is that we don't know what Rhaegar wanted. But I don't think something that Kevan Lannister who may have had a conversation or two with Rhaegar should be dismissed off hand for whatever reason. He has no reason to distort his thoughts. 

Anyway, doesn't really matter. I just hope those seeds that GRRM has been planting have finally grown into a garden.

I've thought GRRM was using Westerosi patriarchal expectations to get the audience thinking about Rhaegar having another son. It could also indicate that Kevan and Cersei didn't know Rhaegar very well, or at all really if it turns out to be true that he wanted to recreate the one-male-two-female makeup of the original three heads of the dragon. Along those lines, Visenya would've been the obvious choice for the next girl's name, but Daenerys would've also been a sensible choice for a Targaryen-Martell union, especially if Rhaegar had forgone the name Visenya rather than simply swapping it with Rhaenys.

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On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

If you take a closer look at the distribution of information, it starts with flowers and roses with no specification of colour. Then, it becomes blue roses (and those keep popping up most often). Then it's a garland of blue roses. And finally, the reveal comes - the queen of beauty's laurel, where it was gifted, and by whom. It is staged as a gradual reveal.

The reveal of the Rhaegar's crown? We learn in our very first chapter that Rhaegar was connected to Lyanna, through kidnapping. The connection is made, but the reason is not at all clear (multiple theories over the years have worked on this concept and it's still not clear), and Ned's feverish one-time memory of a rose crown don't change that.

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Especially in the first instance, Jon totally loses control and takes his frustration out on Emmett. If Ned was in such a mode when he put the dagger under LF's chin, he wouldn't have registered Rodrik's words at all, just like Jon never registered Emmett saying 'yield'.

Well, Jon is a young man, possibly not even considered a true man, while Ned is twenty years his senior, a man who has fought in two wars, lead the north for 14-15 years, has probably learned to control such outbursts to some extent. We see these same flares with Robb's temper, except never from Robb's POV. Are we going to call this "waking the dragon" in Robb Stark, too?

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Definitely not, as Ned says explicitely that he survived only thanks to Howland's intervention, the manner of which is yet to be revealed.

We have no idea what Howland's intervention entailed. 

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Not really seeing your point. The look that Ned, Arya and Jon share is a long face, grey eyes, brown hair. We don't need a description of Lyanna to confirm what her own brother claims about her looks. For the similarity to work, Lyanna must have had a long face, as well, with possible variation of eye/hair shade. The overall likeness doesn't make Jona child of incest, though, as Arya is apparently not a result of incest or Ned's parthenogenesis, and nor are her Tully-looking sibling the result of Cat with Edmure.

My point is that Lyanna might have the features, the long face of the Stark's, but she might not have the coloring. Arya could look like Lyanna to an extent. Ned never says that Arya is Lyanna's carbon copy, only that "you look like her, too". Where as the comparison between Ned, Jon and Arya is noted in the text. And Arya is a bit of an outlier in the Stark clan. Sansa hints that a grumkin stole her "real" sister. Maybe Sansa is right, and then what does that mean for Arya?

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Emphasis, on black, as in Rhaegar's armour (as well as Baelor's, since black is a Targaryen colour), and the red sword is supposed to be wielded by the PTWP, who is supposed to be Targaryen. Red and black, Targaryen colour, red sword, Targaryen prophecy about a Targaryen. Colours. 

None of those colors has anything to do with ice. I understand the concept of combining House Stark's "ice" with the Targaryen colors, but ice doesn't fit the Targaryen's at all. And more than one houses have black and red as colors. House Blackwood comes to mind and we know that Bloodraven plays an important role. Perhaps the importance of his role has nothing to do with House Targaryen but House Blackwood. House Cole, also interesting because of their lofty interference with the Dance with the Dragons.  Euron Greyjoy's personal sigil is red and black. Black and ice don't connect much in the story, except in this dream of Jon's, and in references to the Stark sword Ice, which is referred to as black or nearly black on a couple occasions. And the Night's Watch tents in Craster's Keep are noted to be black with a sheen of ice, so perhaps the black ice of Jon's dreams is him armored in his Night's Watch vows. I think there could be multiple interpretations for this not just Targaryen's are red and black and the Stark's are ice. :dunno:

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Ned never told Jon who his mother was, and it troubled Jon. A damn good reason to feel ashamed.

We don't ever get the idea that Ned knew that Jon was troubled by not knowing who his mother was. That's as big a speculation as tying the shame to incest. 

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Incest can produce the feelings of shame and sorrow, but shame and sorrow do not necessarily indicate incest.

Agreed!

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Being sick means being disgusted. That does not equal being ashamed. Plus, Ned is disgusted with Cersei's incest but not with his own? And if he felt incest was disgusting, why start it in the first place? Feeling disgusted over someone doing exactly what he did himself would make him a terrible hypocrite, yet nothing in his PoV suggests him being one. He is a man troubled by his faults, he does not lie to himself or look for excuses.

Being "sick" can mean multiple things that don't include being "disgusted". Ill, unwell, ailing, bad, nauseous, vomit, mentally or emotionally unsound or disordered. There is no doubt this reaction of Ned's seems very visceral but we have no idea what he really means by this. If he is disgusted by Cersei or her actions, he doesn't act very disgusted. He is gentle with her, talks softly to her, touches her face. He is trying to save the lives of her children, even her own life. He doesn't strike me as terribly disgusted.

As to being a hypocrite, that's a hard one. Ned tells us that he doesn't kill children and seems to want to go out of his way to protect children, but he did nothing when it came to Mycah's murder. The text doesn't even hint that he lodged a protest about this action, so that could be seen as hypocritical. Most people are hypocrites, in one way or another. As you say, Ned has his faults, so perhaps this is another fault?

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Also, it is not weird that Ned calls Jon "son" in front of people - that's what he claims Jon is, so that's what he calls Jon. Not listing Jon among his children in his inner monologue, though, does require attention.

Again, Ned doesn't say "his very own children by seed" in his inner monologue. He says children "that he know's". What does know mean exactly? He knows Jon Snow. Personally, I think Jon isn't included in this statement because Ned already know's what he would do to protect Jon, as he has already been faced with this dilemma. He has not yet been faced with this situation with his children by Cat, and that is why he mentions them. 

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:
Quote

As to the concept of "my blood", that does come up a couple times in our story.

Whether calling a son of your body "my blood" seems unusual or not, we have two examples in the text that GRRM gives us when a father indeed refers to their son as "my blood". These are subsequent textual examples that could very well let us know that Ned is Jon's biological father.

Only, in both your quotes, the respective fathers do call their children "my son", as well. Ned does not. Moreover, he calls Jon "my blood" and not "my son" in an emotionally charged situation when people tend to blurt what's on their mind. 

Those quotes were used to answer your previous comment that you think it's odd to call your son "my blood". I just found two examples in the text that GRRM has fathers who call their son's "my blood". I don't see what the difference is if "my son" is also included. Now, you can continue to find it odd, but that doesn't mean that GRRM hasn't given us textual support for biological son's being "my blood". He has. Twice! And three times, if a person wants to believe that Jon is Ned's biological son.

On 6/1/2019 at 6:20 AM, Ygrain said:

Well... I could be pointy why we are still talking about this, but whatever. :cheers: If you are genuinely interested, throw it in, I just hope I won't lose again something I had been typing for an hour.

People keep talking about it because there is no confirmation of RLJ, unless you count the "abomination" and that's hardly worth nodding at. I also have had issues recently with this sight eating my posts. I always wonder if it's a conspiracy against me! ;)

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On 6/1/2019 at 11:08 AM, JNR said:

This is a critically important point: Ned thinking about the crown doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Jon's parentage.   He could quite simply have been thinking of that crown as a symbol of the war it helped inspire, and the blood shed in that war.

Agreed. And even if one wants to connect the crown to Lyanna, and of course the incident at Harrenhal itself does this, there nothing in Jon's arc ties him to a rose crown. Ygritte ties Jon to the "winter rose" which is pale blue in her Bael Tale but Jon scoff's at the tale as being false, and this has nothing to do with a crown. In Ygritte's tale, the Bael child is a lord, not a king. Jon himself is physically tied to roses once in the story, and those are "wild white roses". Although I do find it interesting that these "wild white roses" grow from a lightening blasted chestnut tree. That seems important, some how!

 

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On 6/3/2019 at 3:21 PM, Azarial said:

I agree with what Ygrain said, how the reactions of the Starks when angry still fall within the realm of normal, but a teenager who looses all awareness and takes down a fully grown man, and master of arms at that, needing to be restrained forcibly before he even becomes aware of his surroundings is something very different. 

And while I have heard of people getting adrenaline fueled strength in rare, normally life threatening circumstances, where was the threat when sparring with Emmet? He got hit on the helmet and snapped into a memory and lost all awareness of where he was and what he was doing, their was no danger, he wasn't feeling threatened or scared. But something happened and it seems linked to rage, based on how he was thinking, no not enough, it's never enough, in regards to being asked if her heard Emmet yielding, and his friends saying that's enough.

That reaction from Jon isn't the Jon we've seen throughout. And adrenaline doesn't explain everything that happened.

As I mentioned above, there is a tie to rage and the Stark's. We hear about it with Brandon, we see it in Ned's arc, we see it happen to Robb, although this is from Jon's POV so we can't be sure what was going on in Robb's head or how quickly he calmed. He had to  be physically drug away from Joffrey by more than one adult. Adrenaline can flare for several reasons, anger is one, excitement is another, near death is thought of as the most common, but all three are possible. And yes, it could explain what happens to Jon.

For the most part we see a calm Jon, I agree, so these incidents are outlier's. But for the most part we see a calm Ned, even when facing Jaime's men in the street's, but he's not always calm. And we see a calm and thoughtful Robb Stark, but we also see the rage and strength and anger. Are we going to say what happened between Robb and Joff was part of waking Robb's "dragon"?

On 6/3/2019 at 3:21 PM, Azarial said:

Sure, dreams, green dreams, lots of people have dreams I never said any different. But there aren't lots of people dreaming of dragons, and there aren't lots of people dreaming of someone melting and having their flesh slough off their bones turning into a thick red bubbling pool when he refuses to kiss them, because of worry and shame over his father watching, and not wanting a bastard. It's not that he has dreams, it's what's in them. Ned's are all about things linked to the north, or his family, not a dragon or girl melting from the heat, or wielding a burning sword while yelling feed them fire. It's that these dreams are a bit fire and blood esque that is interesting, not the fact that he has dreams, or even prophetic ones. That's pretty standard stuff in this story.

We actually have no idea what many of Ned's dreams are about. Period. As to Jon, he doesn't dream of a dragon. After a dragon is mentioned again in discussion, he thinks he "can almost see them". Almost picturing something in your head isn't the same as unconsciously dreaming it. As to the dreams in the hot pools, those pools are linked to the hot water the is the lifeblood if Winterfell and the Stark, it has nothing to do with fire burning Ygritte's skin away to the bones. As to the dream and the "feed them flame", Jon has already experienced fighting both wildlings and wight's with flame, so this doesn't stand out as something pure knowledge that only he has. However, these were experiences he learned through his service to the Night's Watch and those vow she took to serve, which include him being a "fire that burns against the cold". Neither Stark nor Targaryen blood is needed to fight as a member of the Night's Watch.

On 6/3/2019 at 3:21 PM, Azarial said:

Dany grabbed a spear that was a bit hot from Drogons blood and got blisters on her palms that did bother her, as she wrapped them and thinks on how much they've improved but we don't see her in the healing process.

She walked into a flaming funeral pyre and walks out unburnt. She rides a dragon, and before this, Drogon actually blasts her with dragon fire, and she loses her hair and clothing, but still manages to mount and fly away. No matter what caused the burns on her hands, she does't seem to bothered and tells us that he hands seem to be secreting some sort of fluid that is helping her heal. Until this happens to Jon, I will remain unconvinced.

And yes, Jon did grab flaming blankets to cover Othor's wight, and kill it, he is still vastly effected by his burns, something we never see in Dany, fresh burns or not.

On 6/3/2019 at 3:21 PM, Azarial said:

Most people would never be able to stick there hand into a fire like that and pick it up because the heat would trigger their instinctive reflex to pull back. But he never felt the heat, or any pain while being burned.

Adrenaline can do a lot for a person.  My Dad was in a house fire when I was 6 and he reached through flames to attempt to pull a door open. A door that would not open because of the pressure in the room, but he sure as hell tried. And he talks about it as if it was in a dream. I think regular people are capable of quite amazing things in certain situations. And yes, he did get out, with significant burns to his face and hands, and while he had no pain initially because all the nerve endings were burned away, when they grew back, there was terrible pain. And skin grafts and physical therapy, a difficult recovery. Perhaps GRRM doesn't have my personal experience with burns, and I might look at these two situations differently but from my view, Jon and Dany are vastly different when burned.

On 6/3/2019 at 3:21 PM, Azarial said:

Green seer is different from warg/skin changer. Jon saw Bran as a tree, he likely was connected to the Winterfell heart tree, not summer or was using the tree to bypass the wall. Bloodraven, is a greenseer in a tree. The 'theory' as you put it, is based on how Jon's powers were shown to work/not work in specific instances, and how that contrasts with Arya in Bravos, showing that range isn't a factor for wargs, so when Jon can't feel Ghost on the other side of the wall, or can't feel the other wolves there must be another explanation than distance. When he is north of the wall, he can't sense the other Stark direwolves, at all. He thinks about this, and is focused on it when he talks to Bran, who has no wolf smell, only death and soil, and looks like a tree. Then when Jon climbs the wall, he can't sense Ghost. He worries about where he is and if he understood to go to Castle Black from the moment they were separated. When they reunite he goes north of the wall, and sits to think. After he's been there a bit he senses ghosts hunger, so Ghost likely was staying close to the wall and sensed Jon when he went north. When Bran goes north Jon notes that he can't sense Summer anymore. Jon spells it out for us, the wall is a barrier to his ability. What Bran and Bloodraven can do is irrelevant, since Jon's thoughts have made it clear that he can't sense the wolves from the other side of the wall.

What makes you think that Jon is not a greenseer? Jon and Rickon are blessed with the wolves with red and green eyes, obvious signs of greensight in the CotF. Even though several sources are telling Bran he is a greenseer, are they correct? Or are they manipulating him? 

 I have always wondered if Jon could not sense Ghost because Ghost would not allow the connection. It's not immediately when Jon walks through the wall that he senses Ghost. It takes some time. Perhaps when Ghost was ready, he opened the connection with Jon. I think this applies to when Robb and Jon first found the pups too. I think Ghost did not open the connection until it could be established that he would and could only belong to Jon because the other pups had been claimed for Ned's five trueborn children.

And the wall might be the barrier you think it is, but I think it's left open to interpretation.

On 6/3/2019 at 3:21 PM, Azarial said:

Or it's just that the Starks, as his family, are what make him emotional, since he has a deep emotional bond with them and with Winterfell, since it's his home. I don't see why a link to the berserker mode would be based on him worrying about Stark issues specifically, as apposed to the strength of his emotions in general. 

Just pointing out that it was Stark related issues that caused him to have these moments of black outs. And we call it berserker rage, but I don't know that is what Jon would call it. Or GRRM! Insult's to Ned, the memory of Robb (via Catelyn) saying that Jon could never have Winterfell. And yes, Jon would bond with his Starkness, as it's all he knows. My point is that the rage and blackout might be a Stark trait and not another trait. All Viserys did when he "woke the dragon" was get mean. We don't hear of any specific strength or power in him. And in Dany it also seems to indicate rage! Not strength at all. But we do see Robb attacking Joffrey and several grown men are needed to pull Robb away from the golden prince. What happened to Robb seems more like what happened to Jon than anything else I can compare it to in the text. Certainly,

GRRM has written a very ambiguous text and laid out a complicated puzzle for us to try to solve. It's no wonder people can't agree!

On 6/3/2019 at 3:21 PM, Azarial said:

But, what I'm curious about is what will this allow him to do in the future books? Regardless of what side of his family it all comes from. All the main characters with magic have something unique to them. Bran is a green seer, Arya can control wolves and cats, Dany hatching dragons is obvious, Jons seems to be this berserker mode. And Bran, Dany and Jon all seem to get visions. Starks are good with cold, Targs good with heat. It has to add up to something right?

I do like this idea that Jon's "berserker" qualities could be a specific gift he is given to wield, not unlike Longclaw. What is interesting is when we first meet Jon and Robb, it's Robb who is noted for his strength, not Jon. Jon is "graceful and quick" where Robb is "strong and fast". But perhaps something in Jon can awaken and become the strength and fastness that is needed in a certain situation, combined with his own quickness and grace? Maybe these two incidents we have seen with Jon are sort of trail or practice runs, just warming up for the big act?

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