R+L=J v.166

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

Nothing you quoted supports your assertion. They just support what we all already know and take for granted, that Jon has prominent Stark features. That doesn't tell us whether anything physically about Jon takes after his other parent. Contrary to your hysterical responses, there's nothing controversial about the idea that a child will resemble both parents in some ways. None of our characters have any idea what to even look for in features of Jon's other parent.

It's a bootstrapping argument no?  You assume that Jon is Rhaegar's son so you assume that he has some of Rhaegar's features.  Yet, it's not an argument supported by the text.  We are specifically told that Jon's features are all Stark.  Even people who have never met Jon before take one look at him and acknowledge him as a Stark.  

Now that doesn't mean that Rhaegar is not Jon's father.  We are also told that Arya has her father's face, and hair coloring and eye coloring.  She does not resemble her mother, yet Cat is indeed her mother.  Of course it could also mean that Rhaegar is not Jon's father as well.  Perhaps Jon's father is also someone who displays Stark like features.

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason to support this idea that Jon does resemble Rhaegar (or any Targaryen aside from homely Archmaester Vaegon) in any physical way.

It might be different in the mental department - Rhaegar was a melancholic, and Jon is a pretty self-involved youth wallowing in self-pity. Could just be adolescence ... or something more. He is also somewhat rigid, making great proclamations like never fathering a bastard and stuff, which sort of evoke little Egg who is also sure about many things in the D&E stories. And whether he is going to emulate his dear paternal grandfather we will seen soon enough...

There are a few instances where characters not resembling a parent sort of evoke said parent in their eyes or demeanor - but that's just that: them emulating their parents rather than actually resembling them in a physical way.

That's what happens with Robb - when he channels Ned, tries to be like him, he *looks* like him in Cat's eyes. But that is not a physical resemblance.

Jon never knew Rhaegar, he is never going to try to *be* like him or follow his example in a meaningful way. Nor is there any chance that any person who knew Rhaegar intimately is ever going to hang out with Jon Snow. Why would they do that and who could that be?

We also won't get any people describing 'Targaryen quality' of Jon's limbs, hands, legs, fingers, toes, stomach, breast, back shoulders, arms, etc. - because that would be (1) silly, and (2) completely uncharacteristic for George who, at best, gives very casual and brief descriptions of bodies and body parts.

The most important part - Jon's face - is clearly not Rhaegar's face. It is a long Stark face, and such faces simply do not meet the criteria for Targaryen inhumane beauty ... which were met by Prince Rhaegar. At best Jon might look like his distant great-uncle Vaegon ... but nobody should remember that the face of that guys these days...

Thus the chances are about zero that anyone is ever going to see anything of Rhaegar Targaryen in Jon Snow.

The fandom might be very much obsessed with this particular bastard - but as Littlefinger told us: Bastards are an ugly business, and people rarely, if at all, inquire about them. It is distasteful to even talk about them. Sansa Stark looks pretty much like herself with dyed hair, and yet nobody seems to recognize her at the Eyrie. Jon Snow, on the other hand, looks nothing like his dead father.

The only conclusion people would draw about Jon Snow is that his mother is either dead or completely irrelevant since Eddard Stark never bothered to name her or honor her in any way. She cannot be a noblewoman because the bastards of noblewomen do not just suddenly pop up. Those of common women do, especially if their lordly lovers take the children from them at birth.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It might be different in the mental department - Rhaegar was a melancholic, and Jon is a pretty self-involved youth wallowing in self-pity. Could just be adolescence ... or something more. He is also somewhat rigid, making great proclamations like never fathering a bastard and stuff, which sort of evoke little Egg who is also sure about many things in the D&E stories.

This may be a bit of projection here.

Rhaegar was known for being "bookish".  Jon is notably not, he lets Sam take over in that department.

Rhaegar was shown to be artistic and musically inclined.  Jon was not.

Jon appears to be more diplomatic than Rhaegar, even though we don't have terribly much to go on in regard to Rhaegar here.  Other than his overture to Lyanna did not appear to be terribly diplomatic if it was intended as such.

There appears to be a touch of the romantic in Rhaegar, and that seems to be lacking with Jon.

Jon also has a bit of a temper on him, which Rhaegar did not display.  Though to be fair, Jon's warg nature could account for some of that.

And I'm not sure that you can really describe Jon as melancholy.  When he first arrived at Castle Black he was more petulant/spoiled than melancholy.  Apparently coming to the realization that the Night's Watch was not the romanticized order that he had imagined.   There is a sadness attributed to being melancholy and I don't really think that applies to Jon either.  I don't think wallowing in self-pity is really synonymous with being melancholy.

ETA I think the biggest similarity is that both could be considered very able.  When they put their mind to something they tend to work pretty hard at achieving their goals.  Of course that can be attributed to many prime protagonists in stories.

I think to put it in Martin's terms you could argue that Rhaegar was more fire and Jon was more mud.

[Lord Varys]

@Frey family reunion:

I was trying to use soft irony here. Jon and Rhaegar have pretty much nothing in common - I was trying to illustrate how people start to see or construct parallels where nothing is there to see or construct.

This idea that a child must resemble a parent in temperament and character is something that's pretty much refuted - especially for the Targaryens. Aenys and Maegor are nothing like Aegon. Aenys' sons and daughters are nothing like him, quite a few of the children of Alysanne and Jaehaerys have nothing in common with them, etc.

The people looking for something of Rhaegar in Jon should first look for a similarities between Aerys II and Rhaegar.

All of the character traits Jon shows seem to go back to his upbringing as a noble bastard. Even is petulant tendency to punish people close to him if he is given a gift he never asked for (i.e. sending away Sam and Aemon and then also Pyp and Grenn after he was made Lord Commander). Although this also shows a tendency that he likes to be in control of things and resents it when people tell him what to do or force him into positions he doesn't want to be in.

And I think that's also what's supposed to be his anger over the fact that Ned told him he had to go to the Wall. It was all fine and good when Jon himself considered this possibility. But when Ned told him out of the blue that the would have to do that now, that he could not remain in Winterfell, it did anger him because it was no longer is own choice.

This is a kind of behavior one could have also seen in young Aerys II, I expect.

But then, George has the grace to make it clear to us that being a pampered child of royalty or high nobility can ruin your character - that's a huge part of the reason why Joff is as much of an ass as he is. But in reverse this could have meant that an Aerys II looking like a Stark and being raised like a Stark bastard might have been more or less the kind of person Jon Snow is now.

[SFDanny]

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's a bootstrapping argument no?  You assume that Jon is Rhaegar's son so you assume that he has some of Rhaegar's features.  Yet, it's not an argument supported by the text.  We are specifically told that Jon's features are all Stark.  Even people who have never met Jon before take one look at him and acknowledge him as a Stark.  

Now that doesn't mean that Rhaegar is not Jon's father.  We are also told that Arya has her father's face, and hair coloring and eye coloring.  She does not resemble her mother, yet Cat is indeed her mother.  Of course it could also mean that Rhaegar is not Jon's father as well.  Perhaps Jon's father is also someone who displays Stark like features.

I certainly can't speak for anyone but myself, but, yes, I assume Jon is Rhaegar's son. I know Martin has gone to great lengths to maintain the viability of Ashara and Wylla as possible mothers to Jon, but those are almost certainly red herrings. At this point, I would be shocked to find anything other than R+L=J to be true. I realize you are among the few who maintain other possibilities to be likely, but after these many years I find that to be more a contrarian view point than anything else. The overwhelming evidence points to R+L=J being true.

I do agree with you that the evidence we know points to Jon looking every bit of the Stark the world sees him to be. However, when we look to the reasons Ned decides to keep Jon away from King's Landing, I think we have to consider there may be physical traits Jon shares with Rhaegar that Lord Eddard does not want under daily inspection from certain habituates of Robert's court. Is it speculation? Yes. But speculation based on the need to answer questions the books force attentive readers - like yourself - to ask.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I realize you are among the few who maintain other possibilities to be likely, but after these many years I find that to be more a contrarian view point than anything else. The overwhelming evidence points to R+L=J being true.

Point of clarification.  Other than Rhaegar being Jon's father, the only other possibility I subscribe to is Brandon being Jon's father.  Assuming that Jon is Lyanna's son and not Ned's son, I can see only two reasons which would require Ned to falsely affirm that he is Jon's father.  For a time I believed Howland could have been a possibility purely because he is the only one that we know of who seemed to have had a genuine relationship with Lyanna outside of the relationship she had with her brothers.  But upon reflection, I can't really see any reason why Ned would have kept this a secret from Cat.

And Ned keeping this from Cat has always been the bugaboo for me.  I can sort of see why Ned wouldn't confide in Cat that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but I can definitely see why Ned wouldn't reveal Jon's true parentage to Cat if he was Brandon's son.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I do agree with you that the evidence we know points to Jon looking every bit of the Stark the world sees him to be. However, when we look to the reasons Ned decides to keep Jon away from King's Landing, I think we have to consider there may be physical traits Jon shares with Rhaegar that Lord Eddard does not want under daily inspection from certain habituates of Robert's court. Is it speculation? Yes. But speculation based on the need to answer questions the books force attentive readers - like yourself - to ask.

That's my point.  After five books we've received nothing to indicate Jon has any physical attributes that aren't consistent with the Stark look.  This speculation doesn't have any support other than I believe many wish it to be true.  We already have Ned's reason for not wanting Jon to go to King's Landing.  He doesn't want Jon's bastard status to be used as a weapon against him.  Ned sheltered Jon in Winterfell he can't shelter him in King's Landing.  When Ned is led to believe that Jon wishes to join the Night's Watch he's given another option for Jon.  Jon can join an organization where ostensibly everyone is equal, whether they be high born, peasant, criminal or bastard born.  After all the commander of Eastwatch is himself bastard born.

[lehutin]

On 4/7/2020 at 4:32 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I can definitely see why Ned wouldn't reveal Jon's true parentage to Cat if he was Brandon's son.

To me, there's no need for any lies or any secrecy around B+?=J (bastard). All Ned has to tell Cat is, "this is Brandon's son; he's all I have left of my brother," and what's Cat doing to do? Hate Jon because he's not her son, and she was betrothed to Brandon? YMMV obviously, but I don't see it.

 

As for B+?=J (trueborn), oy.

[kissdbyfire]

56 minutes ago, lehutin said:

To me, there's no need for any lies or any secrecy around B+?=J (bastard). All Ned has to tell Cat is, "this is Brandon's son; he's all I have left of my brother," and what's Cat doing to do? Hate Jon because he's not her son, and she was betrothed to Brandon? YMMV obviously, but I don't see it.

 

As for B+?=J (trueborn), oy.

I think the idea there is the possibility of Jon being the son of Brandon and Lyanna...

And just to be clear, I’m beyond convinced that R+L=J. 

[lehutin]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think the idea there is the possibility of Jon being the son of Brandon and Lyanna...

This theory sponsored by GeORge R. R. MartiNHUB!

I can find the door myself.

[St Daga]

 

On 4/7/2020 at 2:32 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Point of clarification.  Other than Rhaegar being Jon's father, the only other possibility I subscribe to is Brandon being Jon's father.  Assuming that Jon is Lyanna's son and not Ned's son, I can see only two reasons which would require Ned to falsely affirm that he is Jon's father.  For a time I believed Howland could have been a possibility purely because he is the only one that we know of who seemed to have had a genuine relationship with Lyanna outside of the relationship she had with her brothers.  But upon reflection, I can't really see any reason why Ned would have kept this a secret from Cat.

And Ned keeping this from Cat has always been the bugaboo for me.  I can sort of see why Ned wouldn't confide in Cat that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but I can definitely see why Ned wouldn't reveal Jon's true parentage to Cat if he was Brandon's son.

In terms of possible Starkcest, I know you favor Brandon, over Ned, for Jon's father, but if it's Ned that is the father by Lyanna, this is perhaps even more of a reason for Ned not to reveal that secret to Catelyn. And we don't even know that Ned might have wanted to tell Cat the truth but was forbidden to reveal such a thing based on the mysterious "promise's", whatever they were. Although I doubt he would want to reveal to Cat any truth of Jon's parentage that includes incest. It would only give her more reason to despise Jon. Also, Ned would not want Catelyn to despise him, but would he care if she despised his dead brother?

I does seem like Jon is a near image of Ned, but I don't discount that could mean that Jon could look quite a lot like Brandon, also. Ned and Brandon are full brothers, after all, and must share some looks, even if Ned is noted to be shorter and plainer, according to Catelyn. Still, Cat denies that Ned looks like a younger version Brandon, and we are told that Jon does look like a younger version of Ned. So there must be some difference that ties Jon more to Ned than to Brandon. Definitely nothing we are told links Jon's looks to Rhaegar or any Targaryen, actually. Of course, Jon's looks could tie just to Lyanna, who happened to look more like Ned than she looked like Brandon, because physically a father would not need to be displayed in a child or vice versa (we see that in Ned and Cat's own children). I can chase these arguments around in my head for days, it seems. 

One implication in the text that makes me think of you and your thoughts on Brandon (rather than Ned) and Lyanna as Jon's possible parents are our looks at Varamyr's wolves. We are told this:

Quote

Not Sly. Haggon would have called it abomination, but Varamyr had often slipped inside her skin as she was being mounted by One Eye. He did not want to spend his new life as a bitch, though, not unless he had no other choice. Stalker might suit him better, the younger male … though One Eye was larger and fiercer, and it was One Eye who took Sly whenever she went into heat.  ADWD-Prologue

I am not trying to imply that One-Eye, Stalker and Sly are siblings (although they could be, I suppose), but we do have a dynamic of two male wolves and one female. One-Eye is older and larger and must be dominant, since he is charge. Stalker is noted to be younger and smaller, and we are told that when Sly, the female, is in heat it is always One-Eye who covers her. Meera's Harrenhal story set's the eldest three Stark siblings to be wolves, the Wild Wolf, the Quiet Wolf, and the She-Wolf (I discount Benjen here because he is only a Pup) which might mirror Varamyr's wolf pack. This then could indicate that the elder, larger and dominate Wild Wolf always covered the She-Wolf. Abomination seems like it could be a hint to incest.

I have also thought this could be a hint about Bloodraven, Bittersteel and Sheira Seastar as well, since Bloodraven was the one-eyed brother who seems to have been his sister's lover, even though they are set up as a triangle. These three siblings are not associated with wolves, though, so it seems less clearly a hint about them. Also, Bittersteel was older than Bloodraven.

 

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think the idea there is the possibility of Jon being the son of Brandon and Lyanna...

And just to be clear, I’m beyond convinced that R+L=J. 

Not a Wagner fan, eh?  But, yes, I know your position.  We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

In terms of possible Starkcest, I know you favor Brandon, over Ned, for Jon's father, but if it's Ned that is the father by Lyanna, this is perhaps even more of a reason for Ned not to reveal that secret to Catelyn. And we don't even know that Ned might have wanted to tell Cat the truth but was forbidden to reveal such a thing based on the mysterious "promise's", whatever they were. Although I doubt he would want to reveal to Cat any truth of Jon's parentage that includes incest. It would only give her more reason to despise Jon. Also, Ned would not want Catelyn to despise him, but would he care if she despised his dead brother?

I’m fairly convinced that if Jon is the product of incest it would be through the oldest, lustful, son, who shares the wolf blood with Lyanna.  Ned’s not concerned with what Cat thinks of him, he’s concerned with not stoking the fans of hatred for Cat against Jon.  Remember, Brandon was Cat’s first love and through the start of AGOT, Brandon was a shadow that lay between Ned and Cat:

Quote

Eddard had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

The shadows between Ned and Cat are Jon, Brandon, and Lyanna.  

The thought that Brandon would have turned to Lyanna while betrothed to Cat would stoke her hatred of Jon even more.

Jon’s dreams draw him to the Winterfell crypts where a dark secret is hidden.  Where Brandon and Lyanna are buried together.

Quote

“She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.”

Cat feels that Jon poses a threat to her children’s inheritance, Winterfell.  Jon becomes even more of a threat if it turns out that he is the son of Brandon, the eldest.

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth.  “Brandon.  yes Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.

If Winterfell was meant for Brandon what guilt might Ned have when he looks on Brandon’s only son?

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Not a Wagner fan, eh?  

Nope. Not by the longest shot ever.

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But, yes, I know your position.  We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Fair enough. We will soon know more... Hope springs eternal!

[Frey family reunion]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Fair enough. We will soon know more... Hope “dreams of” springs eternal! 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Not a Wagner fan, eh?  But, yes, I know your position.  We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Only Wölsung Targaryen blood calls to each other...

Them Stark don't have no divine blood.

Hell, music aside, Wagner is really fun because of his clunky prose and soap opera elements.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Only Wölsung Targaryen blood calls to each other...

Them Stark don't have no divine blood.

At least 4 out of 6 Stark children exhibiting magical/telepathic abilities may call that assumption into question.  If Eddard could father at least 3 of these children isn’t it possible that his siblings may share in a special bloodline?

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

At least 4 out of 6 Stark children exhibiting magical/telepathic abilities may call that assumption into question.  If Eddard could father at least 3 of these children isn’t it possible that his siblings may share in a special bloodline?

If that were the case we would have heard something about magical skinchanger and greenseer bloodlines from Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest in ADwD. Instead, this talent is described as statistically very rare and a gift/curse of the gods that comes with you being specially marked.

It seems to me a baseless speculation at this point to construe the skinchanger/greenseer talent as 'a magical bloodline'. Thankfully, not every magical talent comes with 'magical', 'divine', or 'royal' blood in this series. If there was a skinchanger gene/bloodline then we would expect there to be skinchanger families among the wildlings (instead the impression we get is that they are freaks born to 'normal people' who then are handed over to 'their own kind', never having any true birth families but only those of their own kind they were handed to). Not to mention that if the Starks were supposed to be 'special people' as per their blood why the hell do we hear nothing about some skinchanger or even greenseer Stark kings or lords or warriors or women? Instead we hear talk about the Starks killing wargs and fighting the Children of the Forest in days of old...

If one wants to see something special going on behind Bran and his siblings/cousin then I'd look at Bloodraven himself. Perhaps he and the Children and 'the old gods' possess the power to create skinchangers and greenseers? Or tweak the odds a little bit by awakening something that is there? The power of the old gods is strong in Winterfell, and while Jon and Robb weren't conceived there, they did grow up there - and Sansa, Arya, Brandon, and Rickon most likely were conceived and born there.

Bloodraven certainly seems to have trying to prepare for what is to come. He would also be the one behind the 'stag and direwolf' omen, not to mention the one behind the direwolf pups. He also awakens Bran's gift inside him. It isn't that far from there to the assumption he may have something to do with them having such gifts in the first place.

[St Daga]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m fairly convinced that if Jon is the product of incest it would be through the oldest, lustful, son, who shares the wolf blood with Lyanna.  Ned’s not concerned with what Cat thinks of him, he’s concerned with not stoking the fans of hatred for Cat against Jon.  Remember, Brandon was Cat’s first love and through the start of AGOT, Brandon was a shadow that lay between Ned and Cat:

Quote

Eddard had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

The shadows between Ned and Cat are Jon, Brandon, and Lyanna.  

I think it's possible that the shadows that lie between Cat and Ned could actually turn out to be Arthur and Ashara, even though I personally favor Lyanna for Jon's mother. 

As to Ned, I think it's implied he can feel lust, although this might not be is very own lust he is talking about, although the "dully" is certainly debatable about how fired up Ned is about this concept of lust. It's possible that lust might pertain only to the conception of Lyanna's child and never any of Ned's.

Quote

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"  AGOT-Eddard IX

and we know he feels guilt... 

 

Quote

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. AGOT-Eddard IX

and shame...

Quote

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him... AGOT-Eddard XV

We just see different reason for Ned to feel guilt and shame and sorrow. As does much of the fandom, actually.

 

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Jon’s dreams draw him to the Winterfell crypts where a dark secret is hidden.  Where Brandon and Lyanna are buried together.

Quote

“She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.”

Cat feels that Jon poses a threat to her children’s inheritance, Winterfell.  Jon becomes even more of a threat if it turns out that he is the son of Brandon, the eldest.

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth.  “Brandon.  yes Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  You, Winterfell, everything.

If Winterfell was meant for Brandon what guilt might Ned have when he looks on Brandon’s only son?

Well, it seems Brandon and Lyanna are buried with Rickard lying between them, perhaps as a barrier of some sort. And if Jon does turn out to be Brandon's son and there is fear that Brandon's son can inherit Winterfell, then Brandon would have to have been married to the mother of his child. Ned tells us plainly that bastards cannot inherit over trueborn children.

Quote

Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children … AGOT-Eddard VII

Of course, we know how complicated the situation with Robert's bastards and "trueborn" children are, so that can skew the way we look at this quote. If Jon is Brandon's AND he is a bastard, then none of it matters, because bastards can't inherit. If Jon is Brandon's and legitimate, then he would stand before Ned's kids by Cat. Unless Cat's children were bastards as well, then there might be a dispute, whether Brandon or Ned was Jon's father. The only way Cat's children would be bastards would be if Ned was married before, which could be what Catelyn fears. She certainly has fears and they seem tied to Jon Snow.

Anyway, if Starkcest turns out to be the answer, then I favor Ned over Brandon, but I do see Brandon as a legitimate possibility (one of the reasons that I interpret the actions of Varamyr's wolves like I do). But if Jon is Brandon's son, why not just say that to Catelyn? She tells us she doesn't care if her husband has bastards, she just doesn't want to raise them in her house. She doesn't seem emotionally attached to whether Brandon would have bastards or not (I really don't see her as madly in love with Brandon), she seems to almost act like this is expected behavior from noble men and she seems to understand Brandon was passionate. Even though Cat does some stupid things, I don't really think she is a stupid or naïve person.

 

Honestly, what ever the answer turns out to be, I just hope we get it some day. This undying debate would honestly be quite painful, although no one would be right or wrong, if we never get an answer. And the RLJ threads can top 200 eventually...

[Frey family reunion]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If that were the case we would have heard something about magical skinchanger and greenseer bloodlines from Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest in ADwD. Instead, this talent is described as statistically very rare and a gift/curse of the gods that comes with you being specially marked.

It seems to me a baseless speculation at this point to construe the skinchanger/greenseer talent as 'a magical bloodline'. Thankfully, not every magical talent comes with 'magical', 'divine', or 'royal' blood in this series. If there was a skinchanger gene/bloodline then we would expect there to be skinchanger families among the wildlings (instead the impression we get is that they are freaks born to 'normal people' who then are handed over to 'their own kind', never having any true birth families but only those of their own kind they were handed to). Not to mention that if the Starks were supposed to be 'special people' as per their blood why the hell do we hear nothing about some skinchanger or even greenseer Stark kings or lords or warriors or women? Instead we hear talk about the Starks killing wargs and fighting the Children of the Forest in days of old...

If one wants to see something special going on behind Bran and his siblings/cousin then I'd look at Bloodraven himself. Perhaps he and the Children and 'the old gods' possess the power to create skinchangers and greenseers? Or tweak the odds a little bit by awakening something that is there? The power of the old gods is strong in Winterfell, and while Jon and Robb weren't conceived there, they did grow up there - and Sansa, Arya, Brandon, and Rickon most likely were conceived and born there.

Bloodraven certainly seems to have trying to prepare for what is to come. He would also be the one behind the 'stag and direwolf' omen, not to mention the one behind the direwolf pups. He also awakens Bran's gift inside him. It isn't that far from there to the assumption he may have something to do with them having such gifts in the first place.

No, I doubt it work like Bloodraven waving a magic wand over the children and granting them a "gift".  Both skinchanging and dragon bonding seem to work on a psychic level, so presumably it's not too different on how these talents are passed down.  The difference is that dragon riding was fostered and closely guarded through incestuous relationships.  Dragon riding was considered a gift. 

Being a warg on the other hand, seems to be considered more a curse than a blessing.  In Westeros, you would be considered to have the mark of the beast.  If you look at the history of the Kings of the North, on at least two occasions you will hear tales of them riding out to rid the world of a known warg.  (and at least on one occasion may have introduced the bloodline into northern houses when they took the Warg Kings daughters as brides.)

In addition, unlike the Targaryens, the South, the North and even the Wildlings all consider incest to be an abomination.  Which would also prohibit a magical bloodline from being passed down in family.  But that doesn't mean this recessive trait may not be swirling around the Westeros royal families.

Thus, you have a rare recessive gene that unlike dragonriding is not fostered in any of the high or low families in Westeros  It's more akin to a birth defect than a blessing.  Thus the one in a thousand.

It's probably more analogous to haemophilia, which is also a rare recessive blood disorder which shows up in about 1 in 5000 to 10000 children.  Unless you were a member of one of the European royalty in the 19th century, then it would present itself much more often, because of the numerous marriages among first cousins.

So my guess is Bloodraven's attention was turned to the Starks because he was probably following certain bloodlines that he suspected of containing this "curse", being mingled in the royal houses of Westeros.  If I had to guess, Bloodraven's attention may have turned to the Starks because of Eddard's maternal grandmother, the Flint, and perhaps his paternal grandmother the Blackwood perhaps introducing some unusual bloodlines into House Stark.  Which would then be fostered through the marriage of first cousins.  

Presumably there may also be a lineage on the Tully side (or going even further back, the Whent side, or even further back perhaps the Losthon side) that also might suggest a magical bloodline.

So if this recessive "defect" made its way into Eddard, presumably it may have been present in his sister and brother.  Thus if they did engage in a taboo act, this may have resulted in Jon becoming a warg.

So, I agree with you on one hand, that I don't think House Stark was a long line of wargs.  However, I think it is very possible that bloodlines of wargs would have had occasion to have been introduced in the northern houses.  And a bloodline in a northern house, may very well have made its way to House Stark.  

In addition, if any of the Houses of Westeros, may have been secretly fostering this "curse", then it likewise could have then spread through the other Westeros houses (I'm looking at you House Blackwood).

 

[kissdbyfire]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

At least 4 out of 6 Stark children exhibiting magical/telepathic abilities may call that assumption into question.  If Eddard could father at least 3 of these children isn’t it possible that his siblings may share in a special bloodline?

According to Martin all 6 do.