R+L=J v.166

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, corbon said:

I think most people just understand that wanting or needing to go somewhere else first doesn't indicate that you don't want to go to any of the later places on your agenda.

I guess it just doesn't make any sense when you want an answer to a rather vexing question and then go somewhere else, right? But you can of course begging the question like you are doing right now - without us knowing that Rhaegar wanted to go to High Heart when he left Dragonstone we don't really have any cards in our hands, do we? Unless we cheat, of course. Instead we do know he apparently went somewhere else ... and may have gone to the Riverlands only for Lyanna and not for some dwarf seer.

53 minutes ago, corbon said:

Well, y'know, he could just ignore it like a normal person would and should.
Of course, that wouldn't have turned out so well for his ancestors who should have chosen not to sell up everything and leave Valyria for some godforsaken outpost at the edge of the world, 400 odd years ago. Silly morons, listening to nonsense like that, 

LOL, don't you understand the issue here. A true prophecy is a prophecy, not some weird dream or a vision that may or may not come true or in a way nobody does understand or grasp. Daenys the Dreamer foresaw the Doom of Valyria and convinced her dad not to be there when it happend. Nothing indicates that she saw herself, Gaemon or Aenar burn in the fires of the Doom. If she had, and if her dreams were truly prophetic the ways the prophecies of Maggy and the Ghost and Jojen are, then they could have done nothing to prevent it. Nothing at all. Just as she couldn't do anything to prevent the Doom - which would have been the thing to try to do before running away, you know.

True prophecy tells you what *will happen*, it doesn't leave you *a choice*. And if you believe in prophecy like Rhaegar did you don't even try to prevent prophecy from coming true. You help it along - like his grandfather did before him. Even when this is not necessary and may make things much, much worse. Aerys and Rhaella would have produced children together even if their father hadn't forced them to marry ... if the Ghost made a genuine prophecy there, that is.

True prophecy also doesn't give you a bunch of options. It tells you what happens regardless what you do - that's what the dragon dreams of the Targaryens do, what the green dreams do, what the foretelling from blood does.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I suppose it was an ok bet driking wildfire then.  

Did a prophecy say that would turn him into a dragon?
Or was he just a drunken idiot?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

That said if Rhaegar actually got a prophecy from the Ghost of high heart it seems good to listen to her.

Seems to me that listening is a useful skill in general. Judging the value of what someone says is another skill entirely.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess it just doesn't make any sense when you want an answer to a rather vexing question and then go somewhere else, right?

Umm, no? Its not like he didn't go there at all. He just went some other place(s) first.
People do different things in different order for different reasons. You don't always do the most important thing first - some of the things you do first may have greater time pressures, might be preliminary but less important needs, might just be convenient stops. All sorts of possibilities apply.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But you can of course begging the question like you are doing right now

Which question exactly did I beg?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 without us knowing that Rhaegar wanted to go to High Heart when he left Dragonstone we don't really have any cards in our hands, do we?

Nope. Someone made a suggestion. Its a possibility, we don't know, an interesting idea at this stage, no more, no less.
You invented some weird illogical "conundrum" it theoretical creates. 

All I'm doing is pointing out the fallacy of your 'conundrum'.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, don't you understand the issue here. A true prophecy is a prophecy, not some weird dream or a vision that may or may not come true or in a way nobody does understand or grasp. Daenys the Dreamer foresaw the Doom of Valyria and convinced her dad not to be there when it happend. Nothing indicates that she saw herself, Gaemon or Aenar burn in the fires of the Doom. If she had, and if her dreams were truly prophetic the ways the prophecies of Maggy and the Ghost and Jojen are, then they could have done nothing to prevent it. Nothing at all. Just as she couldn't do anything to prevent the Doom - which would have been the thing to try to do before running away, you know.

True prophecy tells you what *will happen*, it doesn't leave you *a choice*. And if you believe in prophecy like Rhaegar did you don't even try to prevent prophecy from coming true. You help it along - like his grandfather did before him. Even when this is not necessary and may make things much, much worse. Aerys and Rhaella would have produced children together even if their father hadn't forced them to marry ... if the Ghost made a genuine prophecy there, that is.

True prophecy also doesn't give you a bunch of options. It tells you what happens regardless what you do - that's what the dragon dreams of the Targaryens do, what the green dreams do, what the foretelling from blood does.

Oh, is that how it works? Good to know.

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, corbon said:

Did a prophecy say that would turn him into a dragon?
Or was he just a drunken idiot?

He had the same dragon  dreams the rest of his brothers and Daenys had. Egg is also a good bar. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, corbon said:

Seems to me that listening is a useful skill in general. Judging the value of what someone says is another skill entirely.

Indeed, rolling the dice because 400 years ago, one of your ancestors got lucky is another.

 

 

[corbon]

Just now, frenin said:

He had the same dragon  dreams the rest of his brothers and Daenys had.

Did he? Are they all the same?
Ok.

 

How  come non of the others drank wildfire if they had the same dreams?

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, corbon said:

Did he? Are they all the same?
Ok.

 

How  come non of the others drank wildfire if they had the same dreams?

If all the Red Priests know about the AA, why aren't they throwing their luck to the same person?? Instead of going to Stannis, Dany and whomever.

Daeron, Egg and Aerion did have the same dreams.

Prophecies and dreams are interpreted differently. Aerion's dreams, and craziness, let him to believe he was dragon  in human form  yaddi yaddi yadda.

Egg believed that dragons would return and ofc he got roasted.

Daeron seems to have been trying to suppress his dreams and he ended dying because of that for an std.

 

Daemon Blackfyre also dreamt with a white sword  and a dragon  hatching in Whitewalls... And the dragon  that hatched was Egg.

Daenys was moved by a prophecy, just like those 4 were moved by a prophecy and just like Rhaegar, to Daenys it meant salvation and to the rest it meant their dooms.

Long story short, betting your life to a dream is like betting all your loved ones money on the zero.  The fact that one a hundred dollars and ended up winning a million does not make it recommendable or particularly wise... But who knows, you could always get lucky.

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Long story short, betting your life to a dream is like betting all your loved ones money on the zero.  The fact that one a hundred dollars and ended up winning a million does not make it recommendable or particularly wise... But who knows, you could always get lucky.

Seems like you're saying that its not the prophecy thats flawed, its the interpretation (and any actions resulting) that might be.

Not sure how that translates to saying that because the early Targs listened to prophecy and left Valyria, that makes Aerion drinking wildfire ok. 

[frenin]

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

Seems like you're saying that its not the prophecy thats flawed, its the interpretation (and any actions resulting) that might be.

Prophecies are vague so at the end it's all down to the one who interprets them and they may be right or wrong.

 

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

Not sure how that translates to saying that because the early Targs listened to prophecy and left Valyria, that makes Aerion drinking wildfire ok. 

Daenys dreamt with the doom, she convinced her father to pack up and leave and they lived. Aerion dreamt with dragons, he believed that he was a dragon and drank wildfire, ditto with Egg and he burned himself at Harrenhall. Daemon dreamt with an egg hatchling in Whitewalls and Dunk as a Kingsguard, that Egg was Aegon and because he believed Dunk was destined to be his kg he revealed too much too soon.

I'm sure that very frequently there is someone around the world that hits the jackpot. But throwing away your savings gambling because someone got lucky is not wise. Nor should be a very good excuse.

Saying that because Daenys got it right is good to listen your weird dreams regardless common sense is exactly what Aerion did and his baby brother did and Rhaegar did. 

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Saying that because Daenys got it right is good to listen your weird dreams regardless common sense

Who said that?

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

is exactly what ... Rhaegar did. 

Is it? I thought we didn't know very much about exactly what, or why, Rhaegar did?

[frenin]

Just now, corbon said:

Who said that?

Quote

Of course, that wouldn't have turned out so well for his ancestors who should have chosen not to sell up everything and leave Valyria for some godforsaken outpost at the edge of the world, 400 odd years ago. Silly morons, listening to nonsense like that, 

Were you implying something else and i got it wrong?? If so, my bad.

 

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

Is it? I thought we didn't know very much about exactly what, or why, Rhaegar did?

We are not talking in the hypothesis that he indeed listend and followed whatever the ghost of high heart told him??

Doesn't really matter, another seer told Hugh Hammer a prophecy that was destined for Robert and he  followed it to his death. I don't remember when exactly he was told about it but if it was before Tumbleton, without that prophecy Robert and Rhaegar indeed wouldn't exist. Ofc that should irrelevant to Hammer since he hought that prophecy was meant to him, perhaps the seer thought it too,

[corbon]

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Were you implying something else and i got it wrong?? If so, my bad.

Well, someone else was implying it (prophesy following) was all nonsense and Rhaegar should have ignored it entirely in the grounds that it was either wrong, or would happen regardless of what he did.

Me pointing out that that response wouldn't have worked out very well 400 years ago isn't the same thing as saying its good to listen to your weird dreams regardless of common sense. Pointing out the fallacy in an extreme position is not the same as taking the opposite extreme position you know.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

We are not talking in the hypothesis that he indeed listened and followed whatever the ghost of high heart told him??

Kind of, though not as far as 'he did whatever she told him'. From what we have seen, prophecy in this world is never that clear.
But again, thats still not the same thing. Should this hypothesis - that he went to tGoHH and to get her advice of the three heads of the dragon, we still know very little. We don't know what she said, we don't know if he followed it exactly, we don't know if he ignored it entirely, we don't know virtually anything. We also don;t know how the final results will play out yet - Rhaegar is dead, sure, but we don't know whether his actions will be material in (eventually) preventing the long night v2 or not either.
Its a pretty long leap to compare that with Aerion drinking wildfire. 

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Well, someone else was implying it (prophesy following) was all nonsense and Rhaegar should have ignored it entirely in the grounds that it was either wrong, or would happen regardless of what he did.

Me pointing out that that response wouldn't have worked out very well 400 years ago isn't the same thing as saying its good to listen to your weird dreams regardless of common sense. Pointing out the fallacy in an extreme position is not the same as taking the opposite extreme position you know.

My bad then i misunderstood.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Kind of, though not as far as 'he did whatever she told him'. From what we have seen, prophecy in this world is never that clear.

Prophecies are not clear on that i agree but their interpetations, for good and overall for bad, sure are. The very reason Rhargar was born was because the ghost's interpretation.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

But again, thats still not the same thing. Should this hypothesis - that he went to tGoHH and to get her advice of the three heads of the dragon, we still know very little. We don't know what she said, we don't know if he followed it exactly, we don't know if he ignored it entirely, we don't know virtually anything. We also don;t know how the final results will play out yet - Rhaegar is dead, sure, but we don't know whether his actions will be material in (eventually) preventing the long night v2 or not either.

Since the Ghost thing is a theiry without basis or the text is clear that we know nothing. 

It seems clear however that the two of them banged because either he wanted her or because of the prophecy or a combination of both, unless there was no prophecy involved we know that it turned out the opposite Rhaegar wanted since he believed Aegon was the chosen one. And we don't  know if his actions will be material to stop the long night, we do know they were material to ruin Westeros and cost thousands of lives. It'll be up to each one to decide if the high worthed the ride.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Its a pretty long leap to compare that with Aerion drinking wildfire. 

At all, there is one prophecy/dream those two were obsessed with, those dream/prophecy shaped their lives and characters and they both acted on them and it costed them their lives and to their kids their throne.the only difference i can see is that Aerion's seems more wild on the outside but both are pretty stupid and the desastrous outcome seems foretold,

Aerion dreamt with dragons returning to Westeros  and by drinking wildfire he left his position as undisputed heir to the throne open, which led to Egg becoming king, to him roasting alive [...] which led to Dany's exile and to her rebirthing dragons.

The same butterfly effect with Rhaegar and Jon possible role in the long night.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, corbon said:

Umm, no? Its not like he didn't go there at all. He just went some other place(s) first.
People do different things in different order for different reasons. You don't always do the most important thing first - some of the things you do first may have greater time pressures, might be preliminary but less important needs, might just be convenient stops. All sorts of possibilities apply.

Which question exactly did I beg?

Nope. Someone made a suggestion. Its a possibility, we don't know, an interesting idea at this stage, no more, no less.
You invented some weird illogical "conundrum" it theoretical creates. 

All I'm doing is pointing out the fallacy of your 'conundrum'.

The conundrum is that Rhaegar being at a loss how to produce another child wanted to go to dwarf woman for a prophecy after the birth of his son, allegedly the promised prince. If he had other things to do and went elsewhere then talking to the dwarf woman wasn't his objective.

And it is begging the question to presuppose he wanted to go to the dwarf woman despite the fact that we have no indication that he even did that ... after all, Lya was in the Riverlands and we don't know that he didn't went straight to her when he finally went there, right?

8 hours ago, corbon said:

Oh, is that how it works? Good to know.

My point is simply that true prophecy means you get something about the future right. The dwarf woman would have simply told Rhaegar who the mother of his next child would be, not who he should choose for the mother of his next child. This is the nonsense I'm meaning here. A lot of people delude themselves into believing the bloodline or anything there is special, but it isn't with Lyanna and Rhaegar just as it wasn't with Aerys and Rhaella. Somebody just foresaw that certain pairings would happen and result in offspring that's supposed to fulfill crucial roles.

This might then also lead to morons thinking they had to take it upon themselves to fulfill prophecy - like Jaehaerys II did when he forced his children to marry each other despite the fact that they were not inclined to do so and like Rhaegar when he deluded himself into believing that he or any children of his would 'fulfill prophecy'. If any of this was true prophecy, prophecy would not need the help of Jaehaerys II or Rhaegar to come true.

Any proper advice to Rhaegar would have been to not take another wife while his first one yet lived, not to take the daughter of a great house by force and not to anger his belligerent cousin Robert by stealing his future wife. I mean, you certainly are aware that Lya was still very young, that Elia Martell was in poor health, and that Robert got himself killed at an early age, too. Couldn't Rhaegar and Lya have produced a child together as a married couple after their spouses died of natural causes? That would have made the prophecy come true just as well without there being any cause for a civil war.

You also have to differentiate between weird and unclear possible future visions and dreams - like the stuff Mel sees which doesn't have to happen necessarily - and prophecies that will come true. That is why I brought Maggy into the thing here. Her prophecy simply come true and there is little to no ambiguity there. The Ghost seems to have green dreams - her dreams also come true and, from what we know, do not contain much ambiguity. She cannot really tell who the subject of a dream is when she does not know them, of course, but her dreams are not as garbled and weird as some of the Targaryen dragon dreams - which really don't make much sense, all things considered, with there being dragons there who are real dragons and then dragons representing stupid Targaryens of various branches of the family tree.

If the dwarf woman told Rhaegar she had a dream of him being with a pregnant girl looking like Lyanna Stark that should have been enough for him. One imagines that whatever she foresaw did not include the Rebellion and Lya's and Rhaegar's death, or else things wouldn't have turned out the way they did.

But on a general notion dragging prophecy into romance would definitely cheapen the romance part of the story. In fact, if prophecy caused Rhaegar to act there then it would stand to reason one should more look towards the Rhaegar the Rapist version of events since Rhaegar as an agent prophecy wouldn't have necessarily needed love to motivate his actions. Destiny and delusions about saving mankind would be enough motivation for him.

The prophecy angle would inevitable weaken the romance angle and vice versa. Which is why I think one should not drag special prophecy into this thing until the time is right to do so - i.e. until we have reason to believe Rhaegar ever spoke with the dwarf woman or had any weird prophetic dreams himself. Which is definitely also a possibility.

[SFDanny]

May I point out that exactly where the Ghost of High Heart is to be found is an open question. Originally we know she comes to court with Jenny of Oldstones - presumably from the Oldstones area. We know she is at court in Rhaegar's father's years, but how she ends up at High Heart is anyone's guess. Which begs the question, when Rhaegar and his close companions go on their journey after Aegon's birth it is certainly not clear they would know just where the old woman was to be found. My guess they are in the Riverlands searching for her has less to do with the actual location and more to do with how closely the Ghost is tied to the prophecy of the prince who was promised and the dragon having three heads.

There are other people we could expect Rhaegar might consult such as Maester Aemon and Marwyn. We haven't a clue where Marwyn is at this stage and getting to Aemon is quite a journey to take. The real point is he needs some advice on prophecy and the Ghost seems a likely source.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

13 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

May I point out that exactly where the Ghost of High Heart is to be found is an open question. Originally we know she comes to court with Jenny of Oldstones - presumably from the Oldstones area. We know she is at court in Rhaegar's father's years, but how she ends up at High Heart is anyone's guess. Which begs the question, when Rhaegar and his close companions go on their journey after Aegon's birth it is certainly not clear they would know just where the old woman was to be found. My guess they are in the Riverlands searching for her has less to do with the actual location and more to do with how closely the Ghost is tied to the prophecy of the prince who was promised and the dragon having three heads.

I think Tyrion is the one who sheds light on this one;

Growing up, Tyrion heard reports of a dwarf jester at the seat of the Dornish Lord Fowler, a dwarf maester in service at the Fingers, and a female dwarf amongst the silent sisters, but he never felt the least need to seek them out. Less reliable tales also reached his ears, of a dwarf witch who haunted a hill in the riverlands, and a dwarf whore in King's Landing renowned for coupling with dogs. (Tyrion VIII, ADwD 33)

I know "growing up" makes it a bit harder to pinpoint how old he was when he heard about her, but at least we know she was at High Heart sometime during Tyrion's childhood. 

With regard to Aerion drinking wildfire to turn himself into a dragon, I do think there's something in Targaryen lore about this. Aerys thought he would transform into a dragon as well. 

With Dany walking out of a funeral pyre, and whatever is going to happen with Jon that is likely to involve fire, it's not like they're completely wrong about it. Plus we know the word dragon is used for literal dragons and Targaryens. 

Prophecies come down to interpretation and there is no timeline for them. They happen in their own time and there are plenty examples of that. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

There are other people we could expect Rhaegar might consult such as Maester Aemon and Marwyn. We haven't a clue where Marwyn is at this stage and getting to Aemon is quite a journey to take. The real point is he needs some advice on prophecy and the Ghost seems a likely source.

There is no indication Rhaegar Targaryen ever visited the Wall or had ever any interactions with Marwyn. And we likely would know it by now if any advice given to Rhaegar by Aemon had helped to intice the Rebellion - because that would have weighed quite heavily on Aemon's conscience. If he had been the one to guide Rhaegar's madness to Lyanna Stark he would have been much worse off than he was about the downfall of his family.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think Tyrion is the one who sheds light on this one;

Growing up, Tyrion heard reports of a dwarf jester at the seat of the Dornish Lord Fowler, a dwarf maester in service at the Fingers, and a female dwarf amongst the silent sisters, but he never felt the least need to seek them out. Less reliable tales also reached his ears, of a dwarf witch who haunted a hill in the riverlands, and a dwarf whore in King's Landing renowned for coupling with dogs. (Tyrion VIII, ADwD 33)

I know "growing up" makes it a bit harder to pinpoint how old he was when he heard about her, but at least we know she was at High Heart sometime during Tyrion's childhood.

One would imagine she went back to the Riverlands rather quickly after the destruction of Summerhall - after all, she and Jenny came from there, and if the dwarf woman has direct connections of the Children of the Forest she may have lived at or near the High Heart even before she teamed up with Jenny.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

With regard to Aerion drinking wildfire to turn himself into a dragon, I do think there's something in Targaryen lore about this. Aerys thought he would transform into a dragon as well. 

Yeah, there may be a chance that those of the blood of the dragon actually can transform into living dragons or did so in the past, back in Valyria, when the blood of the dragon would have run much stronger in the dragonlords.

If Dany can survive the pyre and hatch some dragon eggs other magical stuff that appears to be impossible could work under very special circumstances, too. We don't know whether Aerys II would have transformed into a living dragon if he had offered all of KL and his grandchildren as a great blood sacrifice ... but perhaps this could have worked?

And perhaps Aerion also nearly accomplished his desire? Perhaps only a tiny little ingredient to the spell was missing? We'll never know but this is certainly not completely unlikely.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Prophecies come down to interpretation and there is no timeline for them. They happen in their own time and there are plenty examples of that. 

This is what I mean by prophecy being a mad guide for actions - if they come true then they do not need you to come true. The best thing to do when to hear a prophecy you believe in would be to just shrug and do nothing and pretend you never heard about it.

A prophecy isn't a prophecy if it is self-fulfilling and relying on the cooperation of the people that are mentioned therein.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Aerys thought he would transform into a dragon as well. 

Did he now?? IIRC that was Jaime's conclussion.

 

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

and whatever is going to happen with Jon that is likely to involve fire,

Likely because of Meli's power, not Jon's affinity to it.

 

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Plus we know the word dragon is used for literal dragons and Targaryens. 

"They had best not say it in my sister's hearing, or they will find themselves short a tongue." The dwarf tore a loaf of bread in half. "And you had best be careful what you say of my family, magister. Kinslayer or no, I am a lion still."
That seemed to amuse the lord of cheese no end. He slapped a meaty thigh and said, "You Westerosi are all the same. You sew some beast upon a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles. I can take you to a real lion, my little friend. The prince keeps a pride in his menagerie. Would you like to share a cage with them?"
The lords of the Seven Kingdoms did make rather much of their sigils, Tyrion had to admit. "Very well," he conceded. "A Lannister is not a lion. Yet I am still my father's son, and Jaime and Cersei are mine to kill."

The Targs as the rest of Westerosi are not inmune to the charms of that.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

This is what I mean by prophecy being a mad guide for actions - if they come true then they do not need you to come true. The best thing to do when to hear a prophecy you believe in would be to just shrug and do nothing and pretend you never heard about it.

Sure. But that's your logic and it does not apply here. None of the characters who concern themselves with prophecy behave rationally. 

Cersei makes a mess of everything. Melisandre tries to fit her visions to the AA prophecy. Dany is paranoid of the people around her. Mother Mole wasn't wrong about ships coming to take the wildlings to safety, but slavers arrived ahead of the NW. Renly died, but Stannis still lost on the Blackwater. 

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The conundrum is that Rhaegar being at a loss how to produce another child wanted to go to dwarf woman for a prophecy after the birth of his son, allegedly the promised prince. If he had other things to do and went elsewhere then talking to the dwarf woman wasn't his objective.

Yep, thats what you said the first time. And its still fallacious.

Just because you go to A, B and then C, doesn't mean that your objective (or one of them) isn't C. And It also doesn't mean C isn't the most important in the larger scheme of things.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My point is simply that true prophecy means you get something about the future right.

Do you? Maybe, if the prophecy is a true one.

Quote

The dwarf woman would have simply told Rhaegar who the mother of his next child would be, not who he should choose for the mother of his next child.

Is that what she told him? I didn't realise it was so easy.

Quote

This is the nonsense I'm meaning here. A lot of people delude themselves into believing the bloodline or anything there is special, but it isn't with Lyanna and Rhaegar just as it wasn't with Aerys and Rhaella. Somebody just foresaw that certain pairings would happen and result in offspring that's supposed to fulfill crucial roles.

Riiight. Because its all nonsense about special bloodlines. It just a coincidence that its always Targ blood that has dragon dreams. Or that resurrected dragons. 

I didn't realise we have that much detail about the prophecies. Note to self: must read all the stuff that isn't written, stat.

Quote

This might then also lead to morons thinking they had to take it upon themselves to fulfill prophecy - like Jaehaerys II did when he forced his children to marry each other despite the fact that they were not inclined to do so and like Rhaegar when he deluded himself into believing that he or any children of his would 'fulfill prophecy'. If any of this was true prophecy, prophecy would not need the help of Jaehaerys II or Rhaegar to come true.

Like that moron, Lord Aenar.

Quote

Any proper advice to

You have picked the right moniker sir. You'll never get your cock bitten off by prophecy for you know exactly how to handle it. I salute you. 

Or is it a case of once bitten, twice shy?

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Sure. But that's your logic and it does not apply here. None of the characters who concern themselves with prophecy behave rationally. 

I'm aware of that. I was trying to point out that the idea of prophecy as a rational guide wouldn't have been used by Rhaegar. He believed in prophecy. If he received a prophecy clear enough for him to understand then he would have simply acted on that. He wouldn't have taken it into account as one of many informations informing his actions.

I was making a general statement about the importance of bloodlines and the intention to help prophecy to fulfill itself many people seem to want to pin on the Lyanna thing - that Rhaegar cared about her bloodline and the union of ice and fire stuff there.

If there was a prophecy there then it would have been a prophecy about Rhaegar's second wife or the fact that Rhaegar would have another child with Lya. This wouldn't have been the Bene Gesserit breeding program and the Ghost wouldn't have told Rhaegar the woman he had to bang to produce some kind of savior.

Which ties into the silly belief that a specific bloodline is relevant to all that. If one looks at the 'subjects of prophecy' then the thing one sees with Dany is that she is just fulfilling prophecy without ever knowing that she or her deeds are the subjects of prophecy. Vice versa, Jon Snow has no clue who he is yet he still is where a guy who is supposed to play a big role in the War of the Dawn should be. He could do whatever he is destined to do without ever learning or needing to know who his parents were. It is nowhere stated that this promised prince has to know who he is to do what he destined to do ... assuming the destiny of the promised prince is even fixed (we don't know what he is supposed to be doing).

It is not an accident that only people who do not try to mess with or try to fulfill prophecy succeed at what they are doing.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Cersei makes a mess of everything. Melisandre tries to fit her visions to the AA prophecy. Dany is paranoid of the people around her. Mother Mole wasn't wrong about ships coming to take the wildlings to safety, but slavers arrived ahead of the NW. Renly died, but Stannis still lost on the Blackwater. 

The sane people do ignore stuff like that. Mel is a great foil for Rhaegar. Like her, Rhaegar seemed to think he played a crucial role to help prophecy fulfill itself. But true prophecy doesn't need that. It will come true even if the people it is about desperately try to prevent it from coming true. But trying to know it better than prophecy did or by creating events that could count as a prophecy being fulfilled, etc. are doomed to fail.

Cersei's problem is that she believes Qyburn that true prophecy can be thwarted. A potential future can, it seems, but a prophesied event will happen no matter what you do.

And to be sure, I actually think Mother Mole saw the ships of the slavers in her visions, not the ships of the NW. The slavers did take some of the wildlings to safety, just not the way they would have liked. The ships of the NW are likely all going to die at Hardhome, along with Mother Mole and her people.