R+L=J v.166

[frenin]

Polygamy was never established as legal so it's difficult to see how could they made it illegal in the first place. Nor Rhaegar has dragons to cow anyone.

[Willam Stark]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Polygamy was never established as legal so it's difficult to see how could they made it illegal in the first place. Nor Rhaegar has dragons to cow anyone.

Just like the incest...in Westerosi's standards but the Targs don't really follow them and people kinda get used to it. So it's not an impossible move to try for him, dangerous but possible. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

None of this speculation is relevant to the basic facts, which is that all Targs in our story are descended from the polygamous union between Aegon and Rhaenys. Whether Rhaegar wed Lyanna when he was already wed, whether anyone will find out Jon's paternal ancestry, whether Jon's paternal ancestry will play a major role in his story publicly (or just internally or privately) is all up for discussion. That all our Targs are legitimate descendants of polygamous marriage is not.

That's not speculation, but I view on historical and thematic parallels within George's framework. It is a fact that bastards were not seen as royalty just because they became dragonriders, nor did people suddenly think such children were princes or kings just because shady women made outlandish claims.

Aegon's polygamy was never declared lawful - the parallel there would be an Ottoman sultan with an harem conquering the Holy Roman Empire, and not forcing the people to change their religion ... just because your brutal conqueror follows some barbaric marital practices doesn't mean you suddenly adopt them. You suffer them if and when and as long as you have to. That's what the Seven Kingdoms did with the Targaryen shit. And they were half-successful. They failed to prevent the continuation of the incest shit, but they put an end to the polygamy nonsense.

Aegon Targaryen did, to our knowledge, not marry Visenya and Rhaenys in the light of the Seven so his marriage is about as valid to the Westerosi as the average salt marriage is to a non-Ironborn or 'the marriage' of a wildling and a stolen daughter of the North would be to the family and friends of said woman.

And he never forced the issue ... and when it was forced by Prince Maegor a generation later he had to go into exile over this.

This is not about the Targaryens, it is about the marriage concept in Westeros - which is strictly monogamous for the dominant religion.

Rhaegar, like Prince Maegor, was married to Elia Martell by the High Septon himself. That was a momogamous union and meant as such.

The only valid exceptions are polygamous unions by kings who are, by definition, above the law. There were quite a few First Men kings who had multiple wives at the same time. But not princes in bad standing with their royal fathers (or brothers).

There certainly can be Rhaegar sycophants in Martinworld - like here on the board - who praise him and cheer him for being a polygamist. But chances are that they would be a very small minority. If Rhaegar and Lyanna publicly married, very few people would have liked such a travesty of a marriage since the last Targaryen to do it was Maegor the Cruel. Even Rhaegar's own cronies likely would have cringed at perverse shit like that, especially Jon Connington (whose jealousy would have doubled).

If it was a secret marriage, nobody needs to believe it ever happened, nor publicly aknowledge it as a reality if they don't want it to be true. And certainly nobody will ever have to believe Jon Snow is the fruit of such a union if they don't want to. They could flat-out deny that he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. They could deny that they were married if they believed he was their child, and they could still consider him a bastard even if they married because they don't approve of polygamy nonsense.

Nobody will be able to force anyone to believe anything they don't want to believe.

And nobody has as of yet made a convincing case as to why anybody should ever wish or want Jon Snow to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's trueborn son. That would just complicate things for everybody.

[frenin]

31 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Just like the incest...in Westerosi's standards but the Targs don't really follow them and people kinda get used to it. So it's not an impossible move to try for him, dangerous but possible. 

But incest among Targs was made legal and part of the principal religion's doctrine, because as cool as "The Targaryens don't follow the laws of gods and men might sound", ruling your people peacefully and not having to worry about whether one zealot servant is going to poison your food or not sounds much much better. Why do you think Jaeharys bother so much with the Exceptionalism and sending his seven deus ex preachers?? Jaeharys invested time in making big propaganda so people could get used to it and even then his wife as almost killed by zealots and their not born baby was killed.

I know that Maegor did and got away with it si who knows, but Rhaegar has been raised in a family that doesn't engage in polygamy since him, nor he has the biggest dragons in history and an army to impose his will, to whomever might have a problem with that, which was Martin's second statement.

 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Just like the incest...in Westerosi's standards but the Targs don't really follow them and people kinda get used to it. So it's not an impossible move to try for him, dangerous but possible. 

It is, of course, quite possible, likely even, that Rhaegar married Lyanna. But it is also very likely that Westeros as a whole - if they learned about said marriage - didn't accept it.

It is easy to pull out justifications out of your ass - Maegor the Cruel did it, too, back when he married Alys Harroway, at a time when the Doctrine of Exceptionalism hadn't even been invented yet - but it is quite another thing whether anybody actually buys your justifications and rationalizations and excuses.

The way things are set up with Rhaegar and his father around the time of Harrenhal it is absolutely inconceivable that a man already in suspicion of being a traitor could have gotten away with as controversial a thing as being the first Targaryen polygamist since Maegor the Cruel (a man who is rightfully seen as a usurper and false king by the branch of House Targaryen which prevailed).

This would have been a major scandal if it happened openly. And Rhaegar never ruled as king. Instead he was killed in battle by the very man whose bride he had stolen. The idea that any marriage of his to Lyanna would have seen as valid after that if people had known about it is just not very likely.

And if it was a secret marriage then it was no marriage at all ... or rather: the same kind of 'marriage' Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers had.

Anybody running around telling stories about Rhaegar and Lyanna the married couple is likely to gain as much attention as Stannis got with his 'my brother's children are actually the children of my brother-in-law' story. Which is not much.

The weird idea that has to criticized is this idea that a majority of Targaryen loyalists in Westeros will remain Targaryen loyalists when said Targaryens turn into perverse polygamists - and that is something we can and should seriously question.

This is a world where Renly could tell Stannis to his face that he should go home and fuck himself because nobody gives a damn about the fact that he is the older brother - and he was right there. Somehow I don't think Targaryen loyalist equals 'polygamy fan' in this world - if this were the case polygamy would be much more popular. Both among the Targaryens as well as their followers. Because if they can have multiple wives why not their followers? Normal people do not want to marry their sisters, so there is explanation why nobody wanted to do that ... but having more than one wife could be fun, right?

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, frenin said:

Polygamy was never established as legal so it's difficult to see how could they made it illegal in the first place. Nor Rhaegar has dragons to cow anyone.

Of course it was. As others have pointed out, the entire Targaryen dynasty is built on the polygamous marriage of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. When they impose their rule over the former kings of the realm and the Faith of the Seven, it is based on acceptance of the rule of these three.

When the Faith rises in rebellion against Aenys, Maegor and their descendants, they are put down and forced to accept Targaryen exceptionalism as the doctrine of the Faith and the law of the land. 

Whether or not the Targaryens ever approved of a specific Targaryen polygamous marriage post Aegon and his sisters is not the point. It was always an option. As we know from Damon Blackfyre's example and from Daenerys's and Ser Jorah's discussion of the topic. It is total nonsense to speak of it having been outlawed for the Targaryens when we see it being considered at times throughout their reign. If Rhaegar wished for this, it wasn't illegal. Rather it was a question of whether or not he could get Aerys's approval. Of course, he also wanted to remove Aerys from the throne, so that too might not have been a problem if his plans had succeeded.

The real question isn't what was legal, but rather did Rhaegar decide to marry Lyanna without his father's approval? While we can't be sure, the evidence of the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship points in the direction of this being the case. If we accept Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna and she with him, then it likely points to marriage. Lyanna accepting a status of a mistress, especially if she is pregnant with Rhaegar's child, seems wildly out of character with the young women Ned speaks about. The same can be said of the love struck crown prince. He risks everything for Lyanna. Why then would he place her and their child in a lowly status to be scorned?

[frenin]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Of course it was. As others have pointed out, the entire Targaryen dynasty is built on the polygamous marriage of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. When they impose their rule over the former kings of the realm and the Faith of the Seven, it is based on acceptance of the rule of these three.

No, it wasn't.

Yet the question of incestuous marriage remained, simmering below the courtesies like poison. Whilst the High Septons of King Aegon’s reign never spoke out against the king’s marriage to his sisters, neither did they declare it to be lawful. The humbler members of the Faith—village septons, holy sisters, begging brothers, Poor Fellows—still believed it sinful for brother to lie with sister, or for a man to take two wives.

 

Aegon was already married to them when he became King, it was in a foreign and legal ceremony in which de Faith or Westerosi  had nothing to do, so they were legally married. As much as rock and salt wives are also legal because they are a different culture and follow a different law. But Aegon, out of caution i suppose,  never tried to formally established polygamy or incest as a legal exception, that should be sanctioned by the Church,  for the Targs. Jaeharys was the one doing that... for incest.

 

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

When the Faith rises in rebellion against Aenys, Maegor and their descendants, they are put down and forced to accept Targaryen exceptionalism as the doctrine of the Faith and the law of the land. 

Again, Exceptionalism for incest, the discussion is about how the Faith would never question incest among Targs again, not the polygamy, polygamy is absent, as it is during the next 200 years. Nor were they really put down, speaking against the incest would have meant war and Jaeharys made sure of choosing amiable fellows to the role.

 

For all these reasons, Jaehaerys believed that the realm would accept his marriage…but he was not a man to trust in chance. “Words are wind,” he told his council, “but wind can fan a fire. My father and my uncle fought words with steel and flame. We shall fight words with words, and put out the fires before they start.” And so saying, His Grace sent forth not knights and men-at-arms, but preachers. “Tell every man you meet of Alysanne’s kindness, her sweet and gentle nature, and her love for all the people of our kingdom, great and small,” the king charged them. Seven went forth at his command; three men and four women. In place of swords and axes, they were armed only with their wits, their courage, and their tongues. Many a tale would be told of their travels, and their exploits would become legends (growing vastly larger in the process, as is the way of legends). [...] In their travels throughout the realm, the Seven Speakers talked of Queen Alysanne, her piety, her generosity, and her love for the king, her brother…but for those septons, begging brothers, and pious knights and lords who challenged them by citing passages from The Seven-Pointed Star or the sermons of High Septons past, they had a ready answer, one that Jaehaerys himself had crafted in King’s Landing, ably assisted by Septon Oswyck and (especially) Septon Barth. In later years, the Citadel and the Starry Sept alike would call it the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. Its basic tenet was simple. The Faith of the Seven had been born in the hills of Andalos of old, and had crossed the narrow sea with the Andals. The laws of the Seven, as laid down in sacred text and taught by the septas and septons in obedience to the Father of the Faithful, decreed that brother might not lie with sister, nor father with daughter, nor mother with son, that the fruits of such unions were abominations, loathsome in the eyes of the gods. All this the Exceptionalists affirmed, but with this caveat: the Targaryens were different. Their roots were not in Andalos, but in Valyria of old, where different laws and traditions held sway. A man had only to look at them to know that they were not like other men; their eyes, their hair, their very bearing, all proclaimed their differences. And they flew dragons . They alone of all the men in the world had been given the power to tame those fearsome beasts, once the Doom had come to Valyria. “One god made us all, Andals and Valyrians and First Men,” Septon Alfyn would proclaim from his litter, “but he did not make us all alike. He made the lion and the aurochs as well, both noble beasts, but certain gifts he gave to one and not the other, and the lion cannot live as an aurochs, nor an aurochs as a lion. For you to bed your sister would be a grievous sin, ser…but you are not the blood of the dragon, no more than I am. What they do is what they have always done, and it is not for us to judge them.” Legend tells us that in one small village, the quick-witted Septon Baldrick was confronted by a burly hedge knight, once a Poor Fellow, who said, “Aye, and if I want to fuck my sister too, do I have your leave?” The septon smiled and replied, “Go to Dragonstone and claim a dragon. If you can do that, ser, I will marry you and your sister myself.”

 

None of this was known on Westeros at the time, however, and soon enough King Jaehaerys had a fresh concern. In the Starry Sept of Oldtown, the High Septon had collapsed whilst ascending a flight of steps to his bedchamber. He was dead before he reached the bottom. All across the realm, bells in every sept sang a dolorous song. The Father of the Faithful had gone to join the Seven. The king had no time for prayer or grieving, though. As soon as His Holiness was interred, the Most Devout would be assembling in the Starry Sept to choose his successor, and Jaehaerys knew that the peace of the realm depended on the new man continuing the policies of his predecessor. [...] The king and the lords of the council were agreed on one thing, however; they must needs do all they could to make certain that Septon Mattheus was not chosen. His tenure in King’s Landing had left a legacy of mistrust behind it, and Jaehaerys could neither forgive nor forget his words at the gates of Dragonstone.

 

[...] He and the queen would go to Oldtown at once, he decided instead. His High Holiness had been a leal servant to the gods and a staunch friend to the Iron Throne, it was only right that they be there to see him laid to rest. The only way to reach Oldtown in time was by dragon. All the lords of the council, even Septon Barth, were made uneasy by the thought of the king and queen alone in Oldtown. “There are still those amongst my brothers who do not love Your Grace,” Barth pointed out. Lord Daemon agreed, and reminded Jaehaerys of what had befallen the queen at Maidenpool. When the king insisted that he would have the protection of the Hightower, uneasy glances were exchanged. “Lord Donnel is a schemer and a sulker,” said Manfryd Redwyne. “I do not trust him. Nor should you. He does what he thinks best for himself, his house, and Oldtown, and cares not a fig for anyone or anything else. Not even for his king.” “Then I must convince him that what is best for his king is what is best for himself, his house, and Oldtown,” said Jaehaerys. “I believe I can do that.” So he ended the discussion and gave orders for their dragons to be brought forth. [...]The Hightowers of Oldtown were an ancient family, powerful, wealthy, proud…and large. It had long been their custom for the younger sons, brothers, cousins, and bastards of the house to join the Faith, where many had risen high over the centuries. Lord Donnel Hightower had a younger brother, two nephews, and six cousins serving the Seven in 54 AC; the brother, one nephew, and two cousins wore the cloth-of-silver of the Most Devout. It was Lord Donnel’s desire that one of them become High Septon. King Jaehaerys did not care which house His High Holiness derived from, or whether he was of low or noble birth. His only concern was that the new High Septon be an Exceptionalist. The Targaryen tradition of sibling marriage must never again be questioned by the Starry Sept. He wanted the new Father of the Faithful to make Exceptionalism an official doctrine of the Faith. And though His Grace had no objection to Lord Donnel’s brother, nor the rest of his ilk, none of them had yet spoken on the issue,

 

 

That it's understandable because Jaeharys had little to no interest in keeping the polygamy and it was him who actually reconciled Westeros with the Targaryen rule and tradition.  But Exceptionalism simply wasn't about the polygamy and while the Realm had accepted Targ incest as law of the land, that¡s not the case with incest. Even after Maegor'r arrival at Oldtown and the election of a new Holiness, the new High Septon gave in to many of Maegor's demands... and even then there is no formal recognition of polygamy.  Polygamy time after time is treated as something that de facto happened, not because it's accepted, not because it's legal, not because is according to god's word, just because the guy in charge had big scary lizards and could get away with murder and surprisingly so, the guy in charge with the lizard did little to actually regularize polygamy. 

 

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Whether or not the Targaryens ever approved of a specific Targaryen polygamous marriage post Aegon and his sisters is not the point. It was always an option. As we know from Damon Blackfyre's example and from Daenerys's and Ser Jorah's discussion of the topic. It is total nonsense to speak of it having been outlawed for the Targaryens when we see it being considered at times throughout their reign. If Rhaegar wished for this, it wasn't illegal. Rather it was a question of whether or not he could get Aerys's approval. Of course, he also wanted to remove Aerys from the throne, so that too might not have been a problem if his plans had succeeded.

It is the point,  everything option is possible to anyone as long as you carry a big enough stick to shut down  opposition that doesn't mean that it's legal however , because if it's not legal it's simply a delusional. illegal and entitled option.  An obscure talk of the Black Dragon's partisans trying to justify themselves is hardly a prove, especially when Aegon 4 himself, even when he  hated his own wife and son and would've done  everything in his hand to spit at the, never considered polygamy. 

The Jorah bit it's even more outrageous,  Jorah is disregarding completely Westerosi traditions and laws in orderto getw hat he wants, nor Dany is btw in Westeros, Jorah doesn't care one bit whether polygamy is legal or illegal in Westeros, he is just appealing to someone he knows Daenerys feels especially connected to in order to get into her pants.  

I doubt it was ever outlawed for the Targs because it was never legal for the Targs in the first place, perhaps Aegon 4 actually tried to make a law making official polygamy... Even then, some Targaryens entertaining the option of polygamy because "they are above gods and men" doesn't make said option a real possibility, but they were fantasizing.

 If Rhaegar wished for this, it was illegal and it was a question of why whether he would topple Aerys to make it law or not. And  if Rhaegar chooses to follow Maegor's precedent and being polygamous, he is lacking of dragons. If it de facto happened once with Maegor before it can de facto happen again, all he needs are the weapons that  made it a reaility in the very first place.

 

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

 

 

[Bael's Bastard]

Not gonna waste time engaging with delusional ignorance of the books. We've already established the legitimacy of Aegon's polygamous marriage and the legitimacy of his descendants, not to mention the major kings, queens, lords, knights, etc. that wanted to wed their own daughters to Aegon while he was already wed to his sisters. The Faith was weak and had no power to impose bans on Targ polygamy, nor did any Targ accept a ban or delegitimization on polygamy. You can create your fan fiction elsewhere, there is no textual support for what you are trying to push here.

[frenin]

25 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not gonna waste time engaging with delusional ignorance of the books. We've already established the legitimacy of Aegon's polygamous marriage and the legitimacy of his descendants, not to mention the major kings, queens, lords, knights, etc. that wanted to wed their own daughters to Aegon while he was already wed to his sisters. The Faith was weak and had no power to impose bans on Targ polygamy, nor did any Targ accept a ban or delegitimization on polygamy. You can create your fan fiction elsewhere, there is no textual support for what you are trying to push here.

Except the text itself... It's fine if you don't agree with me, don't have a problem with that.

- Aegon's marriage was made before he became King and he got to Westeros, so it was as legal as a salt wife could be. Very legal. Those lords  were using what was de facto happening,  whether it was legal or sinful Aegon practised polygamy so why don't profit from it,  to their own benefit, nor those marriages were ever made or even considered. There is little reason to believe that the Faith, at the height of its power during the Targ reign in Westeros, would fall for that, when he did not accept Rhaenys and Maegor's marriage, nor Rhaenys and Aegon's marriage, nor Maegor's polygamy. This is also in the text.

 

- That Exceptionalism had nothing to do with polygamy is also in the text,  the Faith had the influence to polygamy and incest and create chaos and unrest in Westeros, that's why Jaeharys wants the Exceptionalism to become a doctrine of the Faith and the High Septons to fall firmly behind it.  Again, in the text.

 

What it's not in the text is the Targaryens ever regularizing polygamy for them as incest is, neither is in un the text that the Targaryens would be declared bastards retroactively if they ever outlawed polygamy. Ofc, you can ignore the parts of the text that disagree with you and call others delusional and ignorant if you can't refute them.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not gonna waste time engaging with delusional ignorance of the books. We've already established the legitimacy of Aegon's polygamous marriage and the legitimacy of his descendants, not to mention the major kings, queens, lords, knights, etc. that wanted to wed their own daughters to Aegon while he was already wed to his sisters. The Faith was weak and had no power to impose bans on Targ polygamy, nor did any Targ accept a ban or delegitimization on polygamy. You can create your fan fiction elsewhere, there is no textual support for what you are trying to push here.

So, pretending that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married and formed a polygamous relationship with Elia isn't fan fiction?

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not gonna waste time engaging with delusional ignorance of the books.

I always knew you were a very intelligent poster who made far better choices than I.

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

We've already established the legitimacy of Aegon's polygamous marriage and the legitimacy of his descendants, not to mention the major kings, queens, lords, knights, etc. that wanted to wed their own daughters to Aegon while he was already wed to his sisters. The Faith was weak and had no power to impose bans on Targ polygamy, nor did any Targ accept a ban or delegitimization on polygamy. You can create your fan fiction elsewhere, there is no textual support for what you are trying to push here.

Indeed. When the Kings of Westeros, excepting the Princess of Dorne, bend their knees to Targaryen rule they accept that the Targaryens make the laws, and part of that is the acceptance of the polygamous and incestuous marriage of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys. The same is the case when the Faith is forced to open the gates of Oldtown and crown Aegon as the new king of Westeros. The Targaryens back this relationship with dragon fire. If the Targaryens wished to forced the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, Tullys, Baratheons, and Tyrells to marry in the same way they do they could have done so because the Targaryens make the laws, and the Targaryens could mandate the marriages they wished. That the Stark daughter is forced to marry an Arryn is an example of the scope of Targaryen power.

However, Aegon and his sisters are not stupid. They force the newly created High Lords to do only what they need them to do. The Targaryens have no interest in perpetual rebellions. They have allowed the High Lords to continue on as lords instead of kings as long as they accept the rule and rules of their overlords.

Of course, when Aenys shows weakness rebellion does rise. It rises in the form of a religious fervor stoked against sibling marriage. This is the spark used to fan the rebellion in a quest to overturn the realities of Targaryen power. The answer is in the form of Maegor's brutal extermination of thousands upon thousands of members of the Faith Militant. It culminates in the Faith having to give over to the Targaryens the power of legal judgement by the monarchy instead of by religious institutions, the outlawing of the orders of the Faith Militant, and formalizing the doctrine of Targaryen exceptionalism relating to royal marriage practices. It is Jahaerys I who accomplish this expansion of Targaryen power. The Faith's power is emasculated and its subservience in law to the monarchy formalized.

Until Cersei does what she does in her stupidity, the Faith has no real power over the Targaryens, other than the influence they gain from the personal beliefs of some Targaryen rulers. Baelor the Blessed being the prime example. Even here we see no change in Targaryen law regarding polygamy or sibling marriage. 

But, once again, we know polygamy is an option even after Baelor's rule. Daemon asks for it and is denied, but he asks for a second wife because he sees it as still an option. So does Ser Jorah and Daenerys in the discussion of her options. The idea that Rhaegar would not see his own situation in this light is rather silly. The question isn't whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna could legally wed in a second marriage for the crown prince, but rather only did they do so?

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So, pretending that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married and formed a polygamous relationship with Elia isn't fan fiction?

The possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed can't be ruled out based on the information we have. That, and the details, are up for reasonable debate. The idea that polygamy was outlawed for or by Targaryens is not up for reasonable debate. There is not a hint it happened. There was literally one single High Septon that launched a crusade against the Targs for what, four years? And it was launched as a result of Targ incest, not polygamy. That's the extent of the Faith's attempts to force the Targs to abandon their ways, which failed utterly, and led to acceptance of Targ exceptionalism. Even before acceptance of the doctrine, the Faith literally wed Maegor to most of his wives.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed can't be ruled out based on the information we have. That, and the details, are up for reasonable debate. The idea that polygamy was outlawed for or by Targaryens is not up for reasonable debate. There is not a hint it happened. There was literally one single High Septon that launched a crusade against the Targs for what, four years? And it was launched as a result of Targ incest, not polygamy. That's the extent of the Faith's attempts to force the Targs to abandon their ways, which failed utterly, and led to acceptance of Targ exceptionalism. Even before acceptance of the doctrine, the Faith literally wed Maegor to most of his wives.

Nobody doubts that ambitious lords tried to marry/married their daughters to perverse royals ... the question is whether a consensus of the Westerosi would conclude that those things were rock solid marriages during the reign of Aerys II, something that would find the approval of the Faith and the lords and the people in the 280s and 300s AC.

And there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. Especially not in light of the fact that Rhaegar Targaryen wasn't a king - and was married to his wife Elia by the High Septon himself never indicating that he wanted to take another wife further down the road.

The only polygamous unions ever made by the Faith were done under duress - by the septon marrying Tyanna to Maegor among corpses, and the black brides who were done by a High Septon of King Maegor's making.

We don't expect that a High Septon of Prince Rhaegar's making officiated at the Rhaegar-Lyanna wedding, do we?

This whole issue is not difficult to understand. You can compare it to bastards being legitimized - Brynden Rivers is not magically seen as a prince despite his father's decree, is he? He isn't even called Targaryen. Alyn of Hull isn't seen by all as a trueborn Velaryon after Rhaenyra legitimized him, etc.

There might be some Rhaegar sycophants who view his marriage with Lyanna as valid, just as the same sycophants might cheer a child from that union as a prince, but the question is how many people would take such a view - especially at a time when the Targaryens are no longer in charge/have problems reestablishing themselves as the rightful dynasty.

This is not about what happened - but how that is seen. I mean, Tyrion is right now also a polygamist since there is no indication his marriage to Tysha was ever formally dissolved- but does anybody think that Lanna over in Braavos (if her mother is Tysha) will be seen as Tyrion Lannister's lawful daughter and heir (should he ever own anything he could pass on to a child)? I don't think so.

4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not gonna waste time engaging with delusional ignorance of the books. We've already established the legitimacy of Aegon's polygamous marriage and the legitimacy of his descendants, not to mention the major kings, queens, lords, knights, etc. that wanted to wed their own daughters to Aegon while he was already wed to his sisters. The Faith was weak and had no power to impose bans on Targ polygamy, nor did any Targ accept a ban or delegitimization on polygamy. You can create your fan fiction elsewhere, there is no textual support for what you are trying to push here.

That is just nonsense, as you should well know:

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The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew, a boy a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. The blood of the dragon must remain pure, the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valyria before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. The old gods were still worshipped in the North and the Drowned God in the Iron Islands, but in the rest of the realm there was a single god with seven faces, and his voice upon this earth was the High Septon of Oldtown. And the doctrines of the Faith, handed down through centuries from Andalos itself, condemned the Valyrian marriage customs as practiced by the Targaryens. Incest was denounced as a vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable. Indeed, many amongst the Most Devout had expected the High Septon to speak out against Aegon and his sisters during the Conquest, and were most displeased when the Father of the Faithful instead counseled Lord Hightower against opposing the Dragon, and even blessed and anointed him at his second coronation.

Familiarity is the father of acceptance, it is said. The High Septon who had crowned Aegon the Conqueror remained the Shepherd of the Faithful until his death in 11 AC, by which time the realm had grown accustomed to the notion of a king with two queens, who were both wives and sisters. King Aegon always took care to honor the Faith, confirming its traditional rights and privileges, exempting its wealth and property from taxation, and affirming that septons, septas, and other servants of the Seven accused of wrongdoing could only be tried by the Faith’s own courts.

The accord between the Faith and the Iron Throne continued all through the reign of Aegon I. From 11 AC to 37 AC, six High Septons wore the crystal crown; His Grace remained on good terms with each of them, calling at the Starry Sept each time he came to Oldtown. Yet the question of incestuous marriage remained, simmering below the courtesies like poison. Whilst the High Septons of King Aegon’s reign never spoke out against the king’s marriage to his sisters, neither did they declare it to be lawful. The humbler members of the Faith—village septons, holy sisters, begging brothers, Poor Fellows—still believed it sinful for brother to lie with sister, or for a man to take two wives.

It was an issue in the air, not something that was settled. Aegon did not force the issue. He sucked up to the Faith and in turn they overlooked the elephant in the room - at least officially. A

 

nd the polygamy part of it disappeared into thin air in 10 AC when Rhaenys did. Afterwards, the Conqueror had only one sister-wife, not two. The incest issue was settled only with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism - even after Maegor, the Queen Regent and the Hand and Faith still opposed the marriage of Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

There are no universally accepted precedents for Targaryen polygamy, unlike Targaryen incest which was sealed with Jaehaerys-Alysanne's second wedding, and continued by the wedding of Alyssa-Baelon.

And in light of the fact that both incest and polygamy are non-issues in the eyes of the Faith, we have no reason to assume that Aegon the Conqueror married his two sisters in a ceremony officiated by a septon - his marriage on Dragonstone would have been seen as valid as the travesties of marriages we have in a Mormon sect, or the barbaric practices in real world countries where polygamy is a thing - which are seen as such by countries where monogamy is the only valid form of marriage.

But even if they were married by a septon - such a guy would have has much standing with the High Septon and the Most Devout prior to the Conquest as Septon Murmison did after he officiated at the wedding of Aegon and Rhaena.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

But, once again, we know polygamy is an option even after Baelor's rule. Daemon asks for it and is denied, but he asks for a second wife because he sees it as still an option. So does Ser Jorah and Daenerys in the discussion of her options. The idea that Rhaegar would not see his own situation in this light is rather silly. The question isn't whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna could legally wed in a second marriage for the crown prince, but rather only did they do so?

The Blackfyre thing is to this point just a rumor. We don't really know what actually happened there - but people always have a right to have shitty and delusional ideas. This doesn't mean the society at large would accept or celebrate such perversions. I'd assume that if Daemon Blackfyre had gotten his second bride - or had actually pushed this thing - there wouldn't have been a Blackfyre Rebellion because nobody would have supported this freak.

And to be sure - Daenerys is a queen with dragons, she can do whatever the hell she wants, especially while she is somewhere in Essos as the supreme ruler of her small khalasar. But that doesn't mean that anybody in Westeros has to accept her perversions. The Green Grace also makes it clear that for Dany's marriage to be acceptable to the Meereenese she has to marry as per their customs - which was also Aegon's problem back then. His marriages were not seen as normal and universally accepted. They were considered freak perversions and people had the grace to overlook them ... until they did not.

But I'd agree that Targaryen kings in control of the Iron Throne - and in powerful position not facing rebellions and stuff - certainly might be able to push this thing through. The issue I have is just that Rhaegar never was in such a position.

And if his marriage actually was a secret marriage then it has no reality at all. Who on earth is going to buy Wylla's or Howland's story if pretty much nobody bought Stannis' story about Cersei's children?

[Mithras]

When AGoT was published, Alysanne was the daughter of Maegor, making all the Targaryens descendants of yet another polygamous king.

[Bael's Bastard]

The issue of polygamy never disappeared, as Aenys and all his descendants owed their existence to polygamy. Every living Targ was a reminder of polygamy, and incest. And in fact, after Rhaenys died, lords and knights jumped at the opportunity to wed their daughters to Aegon, who not only now had an heir from his deceased second wife, but was still married to his first wife. It's abundantly clear most lords didn't give a shit about Targ polygamy, were more than ready to enter their daughters into a polygamous marriage, and pretty much only a single insane High Septon made an issue of it. Even the supposedly pious Lord Hightower during the conquest was ready to wed his daughter to Aegon while he had two sister wives already. So if we are being honest, the Targs obviously were not worried about any religious or legal prohibition. In Rhaegar's case the issue would have been alienating Elia and/or her family, Lyanna and/or her family, and Robert by interfering with his agreed to marriage, not any religious or legal bullshit.

[Ygrain]

 

On 6/21/2020 at 8:15 PM, frenin said:

And yet Alyssanne do acknowledges his first wife but she calls the rest mistresses and the children bastards. Someone who's been brought up to the idea that polygamy is good would have a less visceral reaction. And  while Alyssanne and Aenys seemed to have taught their children incest is ok, It doesn't seem so with polygamy.

And since everyone knows the Targs were doing incest, they are cool with the twincest... oh, wait...

On 6/21/2020 at 8:15 PM, frenin said:

Ditto. The polygamy doesn't seem to have been accepted ever by any religious or political institution after Maegor, which would've made it's legal status as very dubious at best, outright illegal at worst. The sin against the gods and abomination etc etc is a given.

Incest as a sin against gods old and new is reiterated ad nauseam in the books. No such mention about polygamy anywhere...

On 6/21/2020 at 10:06 PM, Willam Stark said:

Targ didn't formally abolish polygamous marriages, they only decided to stop practicing this custom after Maegor. 

And they didn't really practice it before Maegor and Aegon, either - it was an option but a rarely used one.

23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

My 2p worth on the polygamy discussion is that it was never truly abolished. Sure, it hasn’t been done in a long time, but that doesn’t really mean much b/c the precedent is there and, as I and others have said, it was never made unlawful. 

In fact, I think that is very likely the route the whole R+L=J will go. And we don’t hear much about it either way b/c Martin doesn’t want to spoil it too soon. If Targs we’re still practicing it until recently, there would be no mystery, it’d be a sort of no brainer. At the same time, the text never explicitly states that it was officially banned or made illegal or whatever. 

For the sake of future generations of fans:

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object. (https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07/)

In other words:

there IS precedent = was never made illegal

no dragons = a ton of trouble but you can still try, nonetheless

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The issue of polygamy never disappeared, as Aenys and all his descendants owed their existence to polygamy. Every living Targ was a reminder of polygamy, and incest. And in fact, after Rhaenys died, lords and knights jumped at the opportunity to wed their daughters to Aegon, who not only now had an heir from his deceased second wife, but was still married to his first wife. It's abundantly clear most lords didn't give a shit about Targ polygamy, were more than ready to enter their daughters into a polygamous marriage, and pretty much only a single insane High Septon made an issue of it. Even the supposedly pious Lord Hightower during the conquest was ready to wed his daughter to Aegon while he had two sister wives already. So if we are being honest, the Targs obviously were not worried about any religious or legal prohibition. In Rhaegar's case the issue would have been alienating Elia and/or her family, Lyanna and/or her family, and Robert by interfering with his agreed to marriage, not any religious or legal bullshit.

 

[frenin]

44 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And since everyone knows the Targs were doing incest, they are cool with the twincest... oh, wait...

That's a weird strawman, I'm not talking about everyone, i'm talking about a Targ who is alledgedly raised up believing polygamy normal.

 

46 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Incest as a sin against gods old and new is reiterated ad nauseam in the books. No such mention about polygamy anywhere...

Not the most outrageous sin, it's simply forbidden by the Faith.

 

In their marriage customs, as in their gods, the ironborn differ from mainland Westeros. Wherever the Faith prevails in the Seven Kingdoms, a man joins himself for life to a single wife, and a maid to but one husband. On the Iron Islands, however, a man may have only one “rock wife” (unless she should die, whereupon he may take another), but any number of “salt wives.”

 

The wedding was performed on Dragonstone, under the aegis of the Dowager Queen Visenya. As the castle septon refused to officiate, Maegor and his new bride were joined in a Valyrian rite, “wed by blood and fire.” The marriage took place without the leave, knowledge, or presence of King Aenys. When it became known, the two half-brothers quarreled bitterly. Nor was His Grace alone in his wroth. Manfred Hightower, father of Lady Ceryse, made protest to the king, demanding that Lady Alys be put aside. And in the Starry Sept at Oldtown, the High Septon went even further, denouncing Maegor’s marriage as sin and fornication, and calling the prince’s new bride “this whore of Harroway.” No true son or daughter of the Seven would ever bow to such, he thundered.

 

Prince Maegor remained defiant. His father had taken both of his sisters to wife, he pointed out; the strictures of the Faith might rule lesser men, but not the blood of the dragon. No words of King Aenys could heal the wound his brother’s words thus opened, and many pious lords throughout the Seven Kingdoms condemned the marriage, and began to speak openly of “Maegor’s Whore.”

 

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

For the sake of future generations of fans:

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object. (https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07/)

In other words:

there IS precedent = was never made illegal

no dragons = a ton of trouble but you can still try, nonetheless

Thanks for sparing me the trouble to looking for it.

De facto: 

in fact, whether by right or not.

 

existing or holding a specified position in fact but not necessarily by legal right.

 

Precedent:  

a: something done or said that may serve as an example or rule to authorize or justify a subsequent act of the same or an analogous kinda verdict that had no precedent

b: the convention established by such a precedent or by long practice

 

 

Maegor never cared enough to formalize polygamy in Westeros, they just did it because they could, not because it was accepted, not because it was liked, not because it was legal, but because they had dragons. A precedent is not necessarily a legal action, Sulla's coup in Rome was a precedent for all the subsequent roman generals.

With the biggest weapon as his ride, Rhaegar has a precedent not only to do polygamy but usurpation too and tyranny, as long as he has dragons to ignore the law and tradition. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bael's Bastard]

You are overly complicating things.

If Rhaegar has or finds a septon or other officiant to wed him with Lyanna, and they consummate, they are wed, their children are legitimate, and neither the Faith nor Aerys has any power to invalidate the marriage.

Aerys can remove Rhaegar and his line(s) from the succession, or execute Rhaegar and/or Lyanna, but he can't undo the marriage, and "you can't do this cause the Faith forbids polygamy" would undermine the legitimacy of Aerys personally and House Targaryen generally.

Aerys wouldn't do it for that very reason, and I doubt any High Septon two centuries into the Targs being the Faith's only protectors had the balls to tell pyromaniac Aerys his son wasn't allowed to marry two women, even if he was certain Aerys was against it too.

That's Rhaegar's dragon. That's his nuke. Neither Aerys nor the Faith can argue that a Targ has no right to wed multiple wives without delegitimizing Aerys, Rhaegar, and all House Targaryen.

The only grounds Aerys or the Faith have to punish him is for doing it without his father's permission, and violating the betrothal between Lyanna and Robert, neither of which invest them with the power to overturn a made marriage, or delegitimize the fruits of that marriage.

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if his marriage actually was a secret marriage then it has no reality at all. Who on earth is going to buy Wylla's or Howland's story if pretty much nobody bought Stannis' story about Cersei's children?

Could be that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married at the Isle of Faces (because it doesn't make sense for them to go far away from where Lyanna was supposedly kidnapped, just to get married. Because if they were cought by Starks, prior they got wed, then they would have been separated), so besides Wylla (who wasn't there, she was still at Starfall at that time), Howland (who was present there as a guide, because he had previous knowledge about that island and its inhabitants), Arthur and other Kingsguards, and Ashara Dayne (currently Jyana Reed), there were hundreds of witnesses of their wedding. I mean Green Men, not just trees with faces. They will support Howland's story.