R+L=J v.166

[Bael's Bastard]

55 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Where was Robert on the day that Ned discovered Lyanna in the Tower?

Also Ned was there looking for Lyanna correct, he knew she was there right? Did Robert know Lyanna's location and if so why wasn't he there himself?

I just couldnt remember the exact global positioning of the characters to give her an answer.

I don't get the impression Robert left King's Landing between when Ned goes south and when Ned returns. I'm not sure Ned knew where Lyanna was he left KL. It's unclear when and where and from whom Ned learned about Lyanna. Ned could have learned after he left, or he could have concealed that he already knew where she was when he left. But I don't see Robert staying in KL if he knew before Ned left. 

[SFDanny]

8 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Hi RLJ crew

I have a question, a friend and I were discussing yesterday and neither of us could remember exactly.

Where was Robert on the day that Ned discovered Lyanna in the Tower?

Also Ned was there looking for Lyanna correct, he knew she was there right? Did Robert know Lyanna's location and if so why wasn't he there himself?

I just couldnt remember the exact global positioning of the characters to give her an answer.

While Robert's position isn't known on that day - no information by the author like so much of the information on this period - I agree with @Bael's Bastard he is most likely still in King's Landing with Jon Arryn trying to bring order to his new realm. We also know that Robert was wounded badly by Rhaegar at the Trident, and it is entirely possible he is still healing from that.

Yes, it looks like Ned was looking for Lyanna and knew something of what he could expect when he sat off for the Tower of Joy. Ned does not bring any significant numbers of troops with him into Dorne, and only brings his own northern bannermen who he can count on following his orders. Many of us in the "crew" believe that indicates some knowledge he isn't walking into a camp full of Dornish soldiers with his six fellow travelers, and that he wished to travel lightly and fast to get to the tower.

That Robert is not there with him also indicates to me that Ned had no intention of waiting for Robert to come with him, and his main concern was to get to Lyanna as quickly and as secretly as possible. That secrecy includes, in my opinion, keeping Lyanna's location a secret from Robert.

We, denizens of the R + L=J threads have debated long and furiously over the years trying to figure out just who told Ned of Lyanna's location and when he finds out. My own best guess is that he learns it at the lifting of the siege at Storm's End and gives over the command of his army to a fellow Northerner and sets off to the Tower of Joy from there, but the debate continues on this and much else. As I said my guess is that Ned learns of Lyanna's location at Storm's End, but from whom is an even better question. At one point, I thought it might be from Lady Ashara and her apparent suicide was a result of being an unwitting part of her brother's death. Now, I'd have to say I lean toward something much less dramatic. Just that someone of the surrendering forces knew something that he or she thought might help in getting favor with the new regime and told Ned the information that sets him off to his secret ride with his companions.

I hope that helps.

@Frey family reunion I think we can get a better handle of the range of time we are looking for. I will respond later tonight.

[corbon]

7 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Hi RLJ crew

I have a question, a friend and I were discussing yesterday and neither of us could remember exactly.

Where was Robert on the day that Ned discovered Lyanna in the Tower?

Also Ned was there looking for Lyanna correct, he knew she was there right? Did Robert know Lyanna's location and if so why wasn't he there himself?

I just couldnt remember the exact global positioning of the characters to give her an answer.

We don't know for sure - we don't know the exact day anyway. But presumably in Kings Landing. Ned left Robert there to go south and clean up various odds and ends (Storms End being the main one, ToJ apparently a small private exercise afterwards). Thats about all we know.

Robert would have been taking up the reins of governance (or leaving John Arryn to do so) and preparing for his coronation and wedding (can't remember if he'd been crowned before Ned left, but I think not, formally at least.

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's safe to say that the burning of Chelsted and rape of Rhaella occurred at least one month prior to the sack, since it occurred before Rhaegar left for the Trident, and since Rossart, who was Hand for approximately a fortnight, wasn't appointed Hand until after Aerys received word of Rhaegar's death. It seems likely that Daenerys was conceived no less than a month before the Sack.

I would agree.

20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think between two and two-and-a-half months would be on the conservative side as to how much time passed between Rhaegar marching off to the Trident and Ned arriving at the Tower of Joy. And I doubt many days, let alone weeks, had passed since Lyanna gave birth when Ned arrived.

Actually, I think the time period between the Battle of the Trident and the tower of joy is probably greater than that.  We’re really only given three (roughly) defined time frames of the events that occurred during the rebellion.  (Actually four with the fact that Rossart was Hand for a fortnight)

We are told that close to a year elapsed between the start of the war and the Sack of King’s Landing.  We’re told that the Siege of Storm’s End lasted close to a year.  And we’re told that a year elapsed between Cat and Ned’s wedding and Cat arriving in Winterfell to find Jon already present.

So if the time period between the start of the war and the Sack of King’s Landing is roughly equal to the time period of the Siege of Storm’s End then the time between the Sack and Ned’s lifting of the Siege should roughly be equal to the time it took for Arryn and Robert to win the Battle of Gullstown, for Robert to then travel by sea to Storm’s End, for Robert to gather his troops at Storms’ End and win the battles around Summerhall, and finally for Robert to lose to Randyll Tarly’s forces at the Battle of Ashford.  That seems to be a considerable amount of time in my estimation.

And then of course we have to add the time it would have taken for Ned and company to have traveled to the tower of joy.

(And since I don’t believe that Lyanna died at the tower of joy, I’d have to add the time it took for Ned to travel to Starfall, which is where I believe Lyanna actually died.)

I understand the temptation to put Jon’s birth around the time of the tower of joy, but I’m no longer convinced of that at all.

Either the SSM we’re discussing is wrong, and Jon is a good bit less than 8 to 9 months older than Dany, or Dany wasn’t conceived when Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard over Aerys rape of Rhaella, or Jon was born a good bit before the tower of joy battle.  For a number of reasons, I’m going with option three, even though I do concede the possibility that any of these options could be correct.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

While Robert's position isn't known on that day - no information by the author like so much of the information on this period - I agree with @Bael's Bastard he is most likely still in King's Landing with Jon Arryn trying to bring order to his new realm. We also know that Robert was wounded badly by Rhaegar at the Trident, and it is entirely possible he is still healing from that.

Yes, it looks like Ned was looking for Lyanna and knew something of what he could expect when he sat off for the Tower of Joy. Ned does not bring any significant numbers of troops with him into Dorne, and only brings his own northern bannermen who he can count on following his orders. Many of us in the "crew" believe that indicates some knowledge he isn't walking into a camp full of Dornish soldiers with his six fellow travelers, and that he wished to travel lightly and fast to get to the tower.

That Robert is not there with him also indicates to me that Ned had no intention of waiting for Robert to come with him, and his main concern was to get to Lyanna as quickly and as secretly as possible. That secrecy includes, in my opinion, keeping Lyanna's location a secret from Robert.

We, denizens of the R + L=J threads have debated long and furiously over the years trying to figure out just who told Ned of Lyanna's location and when he finds out. My own best guess is that he learns it at the lifting of the siege at Storm's End and gives over the command of his army to a fellow Northerner and sets off to the Tower of Joy from there, but the debate continues on this and much else. As I said my guess is that Ned learns of Lyanna's location at Storm's End, but from whom is an even better question. At one point, I thought it might be from Lady Ashara and her apparent suicide was a result of being an unwitting part of her brother's death. Now, I'd have to say I lean toward something much less dramatic. Just that someone of the surrendering forces knew something that he or she thought might help in getting favor with the new regime and told Ned the information that sets him off to his secret ride with his companions.

I hope that helps.

@Frey family reunion I think we can get a better handle of the range of time we are looking for. I will respond later tonight.

Thank you very much!! You answered everything we were wondering about. I knew some of the details were hazy and still unanswered.

[Maester Crypt]

If you don't mind me asking, my understanding of the theory is based upon Bael the Bard in terms of symbolism, a unification of Ice and Fire, and the dragon has three heads and AA prophecy.

Am I correct in thinking this?

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Maester Crypt said:

If you don't mind me asking, my understanding of the theory is based upon Bael the Bard in terms of symbolism, a unification of Ice and Fire, and the dragon has three heads and AA prophecy.

Am I correct in thinking this?

Not quite sure where you're heading with this. The theory was coined right after AGOT was published, long before the story of Bael the Bard was revealed. It can be figured out from Ned's PoV chapters, referencing Lyanna's blue roses that are eventually revealed to be the tourney laurel from Rhaegar, Ned's weird silence about Jon's mother both in his conversations and in his inner monologue, his hints at fourteen years old lies and secrets too dangerous to share and promises made to Lyanna on her deathbed which Ned fulfilled at a cost, and an obscure hint at Lyanna's bed of blood which is "translated" in Dany's chapters as bloody bed aka birthing bed. From it follows that Lyanna had a baby by Rhaegar and Ned promised to keep this secret, which he did at the cost of lying to everyone and betraying his friend and king. The Ice and Fire and AA stuff rather stem from the theory than be its basis, as it doesn't make much sense to give a character a secret parentage unless you're going to use it somehow.

[Maester Crypt]

Okay thank you, that is good to know. I understand what you are saying...much appreciated. My mind still has to adjust I guess from the way I viewed the story somewhat. I knew something was there but couldn't place it. It'll take a bit to try to comprehend what is being discussed. That's the difficult part when you not quite sure of the structure. But I will plow on, as really there is no turning back now.

[Ygrain]

Well, have fun going on, and come back askin' any time :-)

[SirArthur]

On 4/14/2019 at 12:57 PM, Ygrain said:

And yes, zebras, giraffes and gnus are indeed a possibility, unless you want to argue that the KG chose to make their stand in front of an empty tower in the middle of nowhere. Yet we know that Ned puts the tower in connection with Lyanna's death and that they found him holding Lyanna's dead hand, so unless the fight occured only after Lyanna's death, there must have been at least one zebra present along with Howland.

That is very true. Yet we are at the same fudamental problem again. Something associated with Lyanna is used to show that Lyanna is at the tower of joy. It it the same old circle theory all over again: Lyanna is at the tower of joy, because more than 1 person is present when Lyanna dies. There is still nothing that points at Lyanna at the tower of joy. I understand the thought process and it may very well be made true by GRRM.

But from a conceptual point oif view, there is no proove that zebras are running away from the tower, because the zoo mayhave never been in the tower. Even if the zookeeper is also the towerkeeper. That's the reason why I find it so unbelievable hard to discuss anything regarding RLJ. There is an assumption and every argument is turned around to show the assumption, even if it does not work.

Lyanna may or may not have been in the tower. But then arguing that Lyanna/the zebras can't be at Starfall, because she was at the tower, because someone watched the zoo - and towerkeeper leaving the tower is .... very flawed. Watching the zookeeper leaving the tower does not conclude he has zebras with him and it also does not conclude there are zebras at the tower just because another statement tells us that the zookeeper has been seen with zebras. 

Unless there is a witness watching the zookeeper leaving the tower with zebras or a witness watching zebras within the tower, there is no conclusion that leads to "zebras can't be in the zoo, because they are in the tower".

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

That is very true. Yet we are at the same fudamental problem again. Something associated with Lyanna is used to show that Lyanna is at the tower of joy. It it the same old circle theory all over again: Lyanna is at the tower of joy, because more than 1 person is present when Lyanna dies. There is still nothing that points at Lyanna at the tower of joy. I understand the thought process and it may very well be made true by GRRM.

I honestly don't know what you are talking about here. Placing Lyanna at ToJ is not dependent on other people present, it is based on Ned's description of the dream as about the three KG, the tower and Lyanna in her bed of blood.  The dream further contains the elements of blood, roses and Ned's promise, which we know from an earlier chapter to be a part of a real memory of Lyanna's death. The fight with the KG and its outcome is further elaborated on when Ned is awake. The place, the dying Lyanna and the three KG belong together, and it has no bearing on who else was, or was not, in the tower.

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

But from a conceptual point oif view, there is no proove that zebras are running away from the tower, because the zoo mayhave never been in the tower. Even if the zookeeper is also the towerkeeper. That's the reason why I find it so unbelievable hard to discuss anything regarding RLJ. There is an assumption and every argument is turned around to show the assumption, even if it does not work.

Lyanna may or may not have been in the tower. But then arguing that Lyanna/the zebras can't be at Starfall, because she was at the tower, because someone watched the zoo - and towerkeeper leaving the tower is .... very flawed. Watching the zookeeper leaving the tower does not conclude he has zebras with him and it also does not conclude there are zebras at the tower just because another statement tells us that the zookeeper has been seen with zebras. 

Unless there is a witness watching the zookeeper leaving the tower with zebras or a witness watching zebras within the tower, there is no conclusion that leads to "zebras can't be in the zoo, because they are in the tower".

Let's start from the beginning, shall we? Seven Northmen fought three KG outside ToJ, and two lived to ride away. Those are numbers relating solely to the fight and its outcome and do not adress if, or how many, people were present inside ToJ and may have opted to leave.

The question the fan asked GRRM if Ned and Howland were the only two men to depart from ToJ covers a broader field of options because it does NOT take the participants of the fight as its premise - it concerns any male person in the location besides those included in the original seven against three. Since the answer is "yes", it must be concluded that there were either no other men present, or they chose to stay in the ruins of the tower for some reason. But neither the question nor the answer covers all the options for people potentially present at the tower, so you cannot claim that GRRM's answer means Jon and possibly his wetnurse were never there, as women or babies are simply never discussed. - This doesn't mean that women or children must have been present, but that they could have. 

Furthermore, "they found Ned holding Lyanna's hand" indicates the someone else's presence at the tower, and a female servant/ midwife/ wetnurse makes sense narratively AND fulfills the condition of no other men leaving the site. 

[Bael's Bastard]

10 hours ago, SirArthur said:

That is very true. Yet we are at the same fudamental problem again. Something associated with Lyanna is used to show that Lyanna is at the tower of joy. It it the same old circle theory all over again: Lyanna is at the tower of joy, because more than 1 person is present when Lyanna dies. There is still nothing that points at Lyanna at the tower of joy. I understand the thought process and it may very well be made true by GRRM.

Lyanna's place of death has explicitly been listed as the mountains of Dorne since the appendix of AGOT, the very first book. Ned connects Lyanna's death and the TOJ in the mountains of Dorne in the same book. You are free to argue that the appendix represents an incorrect in world belief, or that Ned's fever dream misleading conflates things, and that her death was elsewhere, but don't expect people to be convinced that the info stated explicitly in the appendix and implied by Ned's POV is somehow less likely to be accurate than an argument that has zero evidence anywhere in the books.

[JNR]

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Furthermore, "they found Ned holding Lyanna's hand" indicates the someone else's presence at the tower

I think what Sir Arthur is getting at is that you are conflating two completely different passages here.

Ned's surrealistic dream is the sole evidence Lyanna was at the TOJ.  The passage mentioned above, however, doesn't come from that dream.  It's this:

Quote

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.

This is a conscious memory of Ned's drawn from the crypts chapter, aka Eddard 1. It conclusively establishes Howland's presence at Lyanna's place of death, but not that that place was the TOJ.

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lyanna's place of death has explicitly been listed as the mountains of Dorne since the appendix of AGOT, the very first book.

Just like Jon being Ned's bastard, yes.

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Ned connects Lyanna's death and the TOJ in the mountains of Dorne in the same book.

It's true that there is a logical connection there in Ned's dreaming mind.

I suspect that when TWOW is out, people are going to complain about what GRRM did with this area of the canon.  And when they do, I am going to remind them GRRM explicitly told them, in an SSM, that our dreams are not always literal.  He played well within the rules in my opinion and there will be no real grounds for criticism.

 

[corbon]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

I think what Sir Arthur is getting at is that you are conflating two completely different passages here.

Ned's surrealistic dream is the sole evidence Lyanna was at the TOJ.  The passage mentioned above, however, doesn't come from that dream.  It's this:

This is an oft-repeated falsehood.

It is not Ned's "surrealistic dream" that places Lyanna at the tower.
It is Ned's instant recognition and description of an old dream he's had before. Its his description of the dream, before the dream even starts (for us). He tells us clearly that this old, familiar, repeated dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood, above all. 

3 hours ago, JNR said:

This is a conscious memory of Ned's drawn from the crypts chapter, aka Eddard 1. It conclusively establishes Howland's presence at Lyanna's place of death, but not that that place was the TOJ.

Agreed.

It is more than coincidence though that HR was with Ned when Lyanna died, and only HR and Ned survived the fight at the ToJ which was all about Lyanna in her Bed of Blood

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

It is more than coincidence though that HR was with Ned when Lyanna died, and only HR and Ned survived the fight at the ToJ which was all about Lyanna in her Bed of Blood

Exactly.

In other words: the memory and the dream are about the same event - the dying Lyanna, blood, roses and the promise, and Howland Reed is present. The dream adds, albeit unreliably, some details, and yet other details are added outside the dream, from memories and/or commentary about the dream.

 

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, corbon said:

This is an oft-repeated falsehood.

It is not Ned's "surrealistic dream" that places Lyanna at the tower.
It is Ned's instant recognition and description of an old dream he's had before. Its his description of the dream, before the dream even starts (for us). He tells us clearly that this old, familiar, repeated dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood, above all. 

Agreed.

It is more than coincidence though that HR was with Ned when Lyanna died, and only HR and Ned survived the fight at the ToJ which was all about Lyanna in her Bed of Blood

 

Actually even the dream doesn’t place Lyanna in the tower of joy as far as we know.  The dream starts at the Battle at the tower of joy, and then the dream shifts to Lyanna’s bed of blood.  We don’t know if the two events take place in the same location.

ETA:  it’s also not really accurate to say that what we read is Ned describing a dream.  It starts out that way, but at some point we’re taken directly into the dream itself.  We know this because we’re present at the moment that Ned wakes up from the dream.  So I suppose it’s up to the reader to determine the moment that we shift from a description of the dream to the actual dream.

But regardless, whether we’re directly inside the dream or we’re listening to a description of the dream, I don’t think that changes the issue.  You are taking the chronology of a dream and making assumptions that the events in the dream take place at the same location and the same time.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Exactly.

In other words: the memory and the dream are about the same event - the dying Lyanna, blood, roses and the promise, and Howland Reed is present. The dream adds, albeit unreliably, some details, and yet other details are added outside the dream, from memories and/or commentary about the dream.

 

So you’re saying a single dream can’t encapsulate two different events?

[Lady of Mercia]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So you’re saying a single dream can’t encapsulate two different events?

Why would it though? Why would GRRM use a dream to reveal an untold secret, only to then use the same dream to reveal a different scene? Why connect the two, the fight at the TOJ and Lyanna's death, if they're not occurring at the same time?

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, Lady of Mercia said:

Why would it though? Why would GRRM use a dream to reveal an untold secret, only to then use the same dream to reveal a different scene? Why connect the two, the fight at the TOJ and Lyanna's death, if they're not occurring at the same time?

For GRRM’s motivation, i think it’s fair to say that he certainly wants the reader to jump to that conclusion.  So the question is does GRRM want the reader to come to the correct conclusion or the incorrect conclusion?  If George is looking to validate the reader’s expectations than he’s leading us to the correct conclusion.  If he wants to subvert the reader’s expectation than he’s probably leading us to the wrong conclusion.

As for why Ned dreams of these two events together I think there is also two possible answers.  Either, these events did take place at the same location and time, or these events occurred at two different locations and times but there is a common thread between the two which causes Ned (at least subconsciously) to make a connection between the two events.

[Lady of Mercia]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

 If he wants to subvert the reader’s expectation than he’s probably leading us to the wrong conclusion.

You might be right, but I'm not interested in reading a series where the author is intentionally misleading us, or expecting us to write the story ourselves because he's certainly not putting any of this in the text. What's the point of subverting my expectation, if it turns out that there were big unwritten gaps in the story where the truth actually happened?