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Lollygag

Playtime with Foreshadowing: Bran's Vision in AGOT

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Posted (edited)

A lot of people interpret Bran's AGOT vision passage as just a view of the present, as just a view of the future, or they cherry pick each one individually and interpret them as present or future as they see fit. I strongly disagree with the cherry picking interpretation as it doesn’t make sense to write this way and as a vision, it’s jarring and just weird. This forum (and people in general including myself), tend to make things mutually exclusive when they actually aren’t. I think it’s both true that Bran is literally seeing the present in all of these cases, and also that GRRM is dropping some foreshadowing as well. The thread title is Playtime...so have fun!

One thing that’s important to note is this goes back to AGOT and GRRM likes to garden. As foreshadowing, some of these seem quite specific (Ned, Cat, Jon), while the rest (Sansa, Arya, Dany’s arc) seem a lot more vague. The specificity of Ned makes sense as his arc concluded in AGOT :crying:. It also makes sense for Cat and Jon as their fates appear to have been set in AGOT for the most part. For AGOT to be published, GRRM probably had an idea of where he wanted the plot to turn in the near future as he would need to put into place the right set up in AGOT before it was published.

My interpretation of Jon's passage points to Jon becoming King of Winter, so the specificity also works for Jon as he was named King in the North (the Mormonts called Robb King of Winter) as of ASOS. The vagueness of Sansa, Arya and Dany might point to their fates being a little less decided as of AGOT. Dany might be a special case, though as Bran doesn't know her (yet). Curiously, Robb and Rickon are notably absent. Bran only sees visions of the POVs. Also missing is Tyrion and while Tyrion is described as casting a giant shadow and now he's been exposed to greyscale, it just doesn't quite fit for me. Does it for anyone else? 

 

Catelyn

AGOT Bran III

He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

A literal representation of where Catelyn was at the moment. Tully dead are placed on a boat. So Catelyn is dead fixated on a bloody weapon which attacked her family. A great figurative prediction of Lady Stoneheart. The vast roaring sounds like the Red Wedding. Rodrik seems significant. He ends up dying in the wave of Ironborn which besieges Winterfell.

 

Ned

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief.

Ned was pleading with Robert in the Trident about Lady here. But Ned’s arc was pleading with the king. First Robert. Then Stannis. Then Joff. It was grief for his family’s fate which ultimately set Ned against Joff.

 

Sansa

He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night,

Sansa was crying about Lady. But much of Sansa’s arc is crying herself to sleep at night. As foreshadowing, will mark the future of Sansa’s arc? Not really a surprise in a zombie apocalypse, but this might continue to be a marker of her future in the same vein as the others. Perhaps her marriage woes extend through the series? 

 

Arya

and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart.

This sounds like Arya’s reaction to the events in the Trident as she was effectively silenced against her will forced to hide the truth of Joff. It’s also an apt description of her FM training arc and her fixation on the past and revenge.

 

Jaime, the Hound and the Giant

There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

This passage becomes interesting as an interpretation of their circumstances in both the past and the future. Shadows all around them is rather ominous. Jaime and the Hound are adversaries at this time as Jaime pushed Bran out the window and the Hound supports of Joff to the extent he brutally kills Mycah. The foreshadowing may hint something different. Mel tells us shadows can be good as they can only exist with the light, and in a Long Night, shadows might be welcome things as that means there’s light in the darkness. Jaime and the Hound have now undergone a symbolic deaths, becoming shadows or shades of a sort.  And they are now allies of the Starks in their own ways. 

The giant is more difficult as he’s harder to identify. To be consistent, he must be meaningful in the present and as foreshadowing and that seems to rule out Gregor. It might point to LF if we think of a stone giant in itself, but the rest of the description of the giant doesn’t suit LF. But the giant’s full description does fit LF if we consider that LF is an agent of Braavos and the Faceless Men, and the giant is indeed faceless here, like the Faceless Men. Black blood is associated with curses and dark magic, and this seems to point to the FM, too.

What’s interesting is that the position of the Hound and Jaime can be interpreted two ways in relation with the giant and the giant looming over both makes this more likely to me. In the present, Jaime and Hound may be (unknowingly) supporting this giant. They stand with him. Looming can be seen two ways. It could be that the Giant is the boss, the general in a sense. But it could also be that the Giant is looming over the Hound and Jaime too, in that the Giant is in opposition to them. In an interpretation which seeks foreshadowing, Jaime and the Hound could also be seen as forming a barrier against the Giant and as Jaime stand between the Giant and the Starks. I think Gravedigger is an apt end for the Hound’s arc, but if this is indeed foreshadowing, he’ll be prominent again in the books.

 

Dany

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

I’m not sure about the significance of this. The most interesting part is that under the mountain of Vaes Dothrak is very important. It’s easy to imagine Dany might be headed this way. Dragons stirring beneath the sunrise might be interpreted as unborn dragons, Dany’s dragons. As foreshadowing, one can see dragons stirring beneath the sunrise as important in a Long Night. Feel like there's maybe more to explore here. 

 

Jon

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

Jon was put in a cell by Jeor at this time for being a brat. At first he complained about the cold of the Wall, he missed his family and Winterfell (which was always warm) and felt guilt for not helping them when they were in great distress. But in time he found comfort in the cold and sought it out in times of stress. For a secret Targ, he has nothing of his mother father in him. Jon is written over and over and over again as being drawn to cold, not fire. Some interpret this as Jon becoming a wight or an Other. Can’t rule that out as that might be the fate of a great deal of the characters. But I find this interpretation much more likely. Jon becomes a hard man in a hard time, killing the boy, like the old Kings of Winter.

ADWD Jon II

Jon was tired. I need sleep. He had been up half the night poring over maps, writing letters, and making plans with Maester Aemon. Even after stumbling into his narrow bed, rest had not come easily. He knew what he would face today, and found himself tossing restlessly as he brooded on Maester Aemon's final words. "Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born." The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. Their rule was not an uncontested one. Many were the wars in which the Starks expanded their rule or were forced to win back lands that rebels had carved away. The Kings of Winter were hard men in hard times.

 

Heart of Winter & Bran

 

And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

And his father's voice replied to him. "That is the only time a man can be brave."

Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.

Death reached for him, screaming.

Bran spread his arms and flew.

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.

"I'm flying!" he cried out in delight.

I've noticed, said the three-eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as its pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.

"What are you doing?" he shrieked.

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, "He's awake, he's awake, he's awake."

Bran touched his forehead, between his eyes. The place where the crow had pecked him was still burning, but there was nothing there, no blood, no wound. He felt weak and dizzy. He tried to get out of bed, but nothing happened.

And then there was movement beside the bed, and something landed lightly on his legs. He felt nothing. A pair of yellow eyes looked into his own, shining like the sun. The window was open and it was cold in the room, but the warmth that came off the wolf enfolded him like a hot bath. His pup, Bran realized … or was it? He was so big now. He reached out to pet him, his hand trembling like a leaf.

When his brother Robb burst into the room, breathless from his dash up the tower steps, the direwolf was licking Bran's face. Bran looked up calmly. "His name is Summer," he said.

I bolded parts which seem important in a foreshadowing sense. I think the part where we’re told nothing grew or lived is significant. In normal winter, a lot of things don’t die, they just sleep. So this is different. The curtain of light sounds like the aurora borealis. Most interesting is that Bran’s tears burned his cheeks. This looks like Bran’s future fight. The role of Summer seems quite important. It seems to point to me that Bran physically dies and wargs Summer as Summer's heat engulfs him. Perhaps that's the importance of the direwolves?  A magical barrier against the cold of the Others? That would explain why the direwolf is the Stark sigil and their words are Winter is Coming. Fly or die—is that warging? A lot to play with here. 

Edited by Lollygag

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Posted (edited)

What many members (not me) do in this forum is pick the prophecies that favor their favorite characters and spin that into some kind of happy outcome for those people.  That's not only cherry picking but inventing something that isn't there.  

Edited by Aline de Gavrillac

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Just now, Aline de Gavrillac said:

What many members (not me) do in this forum is pick the prophecies that favor their favorite characters and spin that into some kind of happy outcome for those people.  That's not only cherry picking but inventing something that isn't there.  

I also see it being used as support for bad outcomes for characters they don't like. 

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16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Most interesting is that Bran’s tears burned his cheeks.

Dany is Fire and "her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin."

Bran is Ice and "the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks"

The tears themselves are regular body temperature, but their reaction with the skin temperature reveals the character of the person crying.  For Dany, tears turned to steam because she is fire made flesh, for Bran regular body temperature tears felt burning hot because he is ice made flesh.

 

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2 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Dany is Fire and "her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin."

Bran is Ice and "the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks"

The tears themselves are regular body temperature, but their reaction with the skin temperature reveals the character of the person crying.  For Dany, tears turned to steam because she is fire made flesh, for Bran regular body temperature tears felt burning hot because he is ice made flesh.

 

That's in the dreamworld.  Reality is quite different.  Khal would have had third degree burns on his lips and body when he touched Daenerys if the image in that dream was real.  Likewise, Bran would have melted long ago.  The person who is most likely to turn to ice among the Starks is Jon.  All warmth fled his body you know.  

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1 minute ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

That's in the dreamworld.  Reality is quite different.  Khal would have had third degree burns on his lips and body when he touched Daenerys if the image in that dream was real.  Likewise, Bran would have melted long ago.  The person who is most likely to turn to ice among the Starks is Jon.  All warmth fled his body you know.  

I think the barriers between dreamworld and reality will break down in the next books:

"Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes."

I think the indications are that both brothers will turn to Ice, there is a bunch of Night's King symbolism working for Jon (evil name, being Lord Commander, he dreams of usurpation and claiming Winterfell for himself--indicates strong ambition barely kept under wraps, and he might come back more wolf than man). 

I know you didn't suggest this, but I don't buy that Jon is balance of Ice and Fire and will solve everything, there needs to be a twist.  The Prince that was Promised was a prophecy, and prophecy will always bit your prick off every time.  I think it is just as likely the PTWP is a recipe for the antichrist, and Jon could be the embodiment of the worst aspects of both families. 

 

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Jon is written over and over and over again as being drawn to cold, not fire.

Quote

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't …"

Tyrion thinks Jon dreams of burning his family with dragonfire, and Jon weakly denies it.  Tyrion implies that all Targs have dragon dreams an obsession with fire and burning people, Jon and Tyrion included.

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14 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:
1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Jon is written over and over and over again as being drawn to cold, not fire.

Quote

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't …"

Tyrion thinks Jon dreams of burning his family with dragonfire, and Jon weakly denies it.  Tyrion implies that all Targs have dragon dreams an obsession with fire and burning people, Jon and Tyrion included.

I do remember that passage with Tyrion. What makes me discount it is that it's just not reinforced throughout the rest of the series unless you count his kissed by fire thing, but this would still be different as hair isn't fire.

When Jon got to the Wall, at first he complained quite a bit about the cold. Something changed. For a number of books now, we see Jon regularly taking a walk in the cold when stressed. He often goes to stand by a window which is the coldest place in a room instead of going by the fire. Since it's so cold at the NW, it'd be easy to keep writing Jon as going to stand by the fire. But it's the opposite which happens. 

I don't have an explanation, but at this point, but I suspect GRRM decided to take Jon in at least a somewhat different direction after the Tyrion/Jon fire scene in AGOT hence why this connection to literal fire is no longer reinforced. 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

When Jon got to the Wall, at first he complained quite a bit about the cold. Something changed. For a number of books now, we see Jon regularly taking a walk in the cold when stressed. He often goes to stand by a window which is the coldest place in a room instead of going by the fire. Since it's so cold at the NW, it'd be easy to keep writing Jon as going to stand by the fire. But it's the opposite which happens. 

Ned seems to do this as well, for what it's worth, he opens the window and stands by it after him and Cat bone, right before they get Lysas letter. He is also visibly bothered by the heat in Kings Landing in several of his chapters. 

As to the OP this topic actually interests me greatly, and agree that this scene is loaded with foreshadowing, some of which seems to have already come to pass. Also the dream itself can be viewed as foreshadowing of the powers he will day wield but also brings up questions,(Is the dream itself brans power, or did someone send it, if so, who, and why)again, some of which seem to be answered, some maybe not.

The tears burning Brans face I'm not really sure what to make of to be honest but I see the part about Bran and heart of winter mainly as a metaphor for Bran accepting his fate and deciding to be brave, even though he's afraid.

Edited by Back door hodor

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4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't have an explanation, but at this point, but I suspect GRRM decided to take Jon in at least a somewhat different direction after the Tyrion/Jon fire scene in AGOT hence why this connection to literal fire is no longer reinforced. 

Agreed, that or it was just too on the nose.  When Jon comes back he will be some kind of cold god resurrected by fire magic--what would that be?  But on the other hand, nothing burns like the cold.  So the distinction between Ice and Fire might just be a red herring.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

 

I  just read George's short story In the Lost Lands, and "the curtain of light" is used to describe the aurora in that. 

"Tonight if the clouds pass, you will see the lights rippling above the northern mountains, all purple and gray and maroon, twisting like curtains caught in this endless wind."

And we get the line "He [Jerais, captain of the kingsguard/rainbow guard] brought two other knights with him, a huge man all in white whose shield showed a skull carved out of ice, and another in crimson whose sigil was a burning man."  The Great Other and R'hllor are knights working for the same guy, they are just two of the colors of the rainbow guard.  (More evidence that the Great Other and R'hllor are both inside the weirwood network.)

And the line: "Night and day, black and white, they are weak.  All strength derives from the realm between, from twilight, from shadow, from the terrible place between life and death.  From the gray

The real evil power comes from mixing Ice and Fire?

Prolonged torture and suffering produces powerful blood magic.  Psychological torture is the main ingredient.

Also, the plot centers around the idea that your can steal a skinchanger's powers by flaying them and wearing their pelt (in this case the huge white pelt of a werewolf with red eyes).  She took an entire night to flay him, "it was a long an bloody night"

And in the Lost Lands there are "Werefolk, changelings, and gray shapes that walk only by twilight, shuffling things half-living and half-dead."

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10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa

He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night,

Sansa was crying about Lady. But much of Sansa’s arc is crying herself to sleep at night. As foreshadowing, will mark the future of Sansa’s arc? Not really a surprise in a zombie apocalypse, but this might continue to be a marker of her future in the same vein as the others. Perhaps her marriage woes extend through the series? 

The direwolves and Micah paid for Sansa's character flaw.  She hid the truth to protect her beloved Joffrey.  Eddard paid for Sansa's obsession with Joffrey also.  To me, the foreshadowing for Sansa involves her having to pay for someone else's character flaws.  It'd be great if she sacrifices herself to protect Robert Arryn.  

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18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A lot of people interpret Bran's AGOT vision passage as just a view of the present, as just a view of the future, or they cherry pick each one individually and interpret them as present or future as they see fit. I strongly disagree with the cherry picking interpretation as it doesn’t make sense to write this way and as a vision, it’s jarring and just weird. 

I agree with the bolded.  But let me suggest an alternate approach to the vision of the 3 shadows.

Let us assume that the shadow giant is Robert Strong.  This means the vision cannot be the past, but must be the future, after Arya has returned.  

This gives the word "shadow" undead implications.  This is reinforced by Thoros' statement about Stoneheart:  "a grimmer shadow leads us now."  It is also reinforced by Bran's other vision where he sees Jaime as something that ONCE was a lion, but now has become a twisted thing.

What of the Shadow Hound?  It is not Sandor.  For, if the Elder Brother words are not completely meaningless, Sandor and the Hound have parted ways.  Sandor has left the Hound behind.  And The Hound has left Sandor behind, being embodied first as Rorge, and then as Lem.  The Hound's climactic incarnation is still to come, but it won't be Sandor.

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On 3/4/2019 at 6:06 AM, Lollygag said:

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

Jon was put in a cell by Jeor at this time for being a brat. At first he complained about the cold of the Wall, he missed his family and Winterfell (which was always warm) and felt guilt for not helping them when they were in great distress. But in time he found comfort in the cold and sought it out in times of stress. For a secret Targ, he has nothing of his mother father in him. Jon is written over and over and over again as being drawn to cold, not fire. Some interpret this as Jon becoming a wight or an Other. Can’t rule that out as that might be the fate of a great deal of the characters. But I find this interpretation much more likely. Jon becomes a hard man in a hard time, killing the boy, like the old Kings of Winter.

My interpretation of this passage is that foreshadows Jon's death, which has been a long term build-up. It is very probably that Jon's corpse will be stored for a while in the Ice cells and thus quite will be in quite good shape once he is back. On the other hand his soul will live in Ghost for a while and becoming mingled with the wolf's.  We have learned through Beric and LSH that one doesn't come back from death unchanged. Jon has (had?) the memory of the warmth of Winterfell and he has also found warmth in the NW, even from someone as cold as Stannis. I think he will forget all of this and he will be quite indifferent to the needs of humanity, maybe focusing only in his own concern, until someone will light his inner fire.

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It is a really straight-forward passage that follows no rules and should be taken at face value, it is almost certainly what he meant when he said he wished he'd kept some of the foreshadowing a bit less obvious. Of course it is Ungregor, Sandor and Jaime.

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18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Other things that have the "black blood"

King Robert's infected wound: "The wine-soaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous. Ned's stomach turned."

Drogo's infected wound:  "Khal Drogo thrashed, fighting some unseen enemy. Black blood ran slow and thick from his open wound.
"Your khal is good as dead, Princess."
 
Ralf Kenning's infected/poisoned wound: "When he laid the edge of the blade against the swollen throat of the creature on the straw, the skin split open in a gout of black blood and yellow pus."
 
Victarion's infected hand: "blood welled up as well as pus, blood so dark that it looked black in the lantern light. "
 
 

Wights and dead things: "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals." His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. "His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk."

"He could see the torn veins in the dead man's wrist, iron worms in the pale flesh. His blood was a black dust."

 

The Night's Watch, and Craster:  "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood."

"Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart."

"Craster's a terrible savage. He marries his daughters and obeys no laws but those he makes himself. And Dywen told Grenn he's got black blood in his veins." 

"Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off.Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse. "

"and the black blood rushing from his throat as the storm cracked overhead."

 

Mel's Blood and Shadow Baby: " Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink."

"The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her."

 

Theon's dream of direwolves:  "When he glanced back over his shoulder he saw them coming, great wolves the size of horses with the heads of small children. Oh, mercy, mercy. Blood dripped from their mouths black as pitch, burning holes in the snow where it fell."

 

Beric: "The blood came rushing out in a hot black gush. "

 

Stoneheart: "Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails."

 

Dragon blood: " The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I."

"Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons"

 

Black blood is associated with infection, corruption, death, demons, wights (both Ice and Fire), dragons, and the Night's Watch.  Odd grouping, the Night's Watch is in some pretty poor company.
 

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Posted (edited)

nvm :blush:

 

 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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16 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It is a really straight-forward passage that follows no rules and should be taken at face value, it is almost certainly what he meant when he said he wished he'd kept some of the foreshadowing a bit less obvious. Of course it is Ungregor, Sandor and Jaime.

It is UnGregor, UnJaime, and the UnHound (who is not Sandor).

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On 3/4/2019 at 6:06 AM, Lollygag said:

In an interpretation which seeks foreshadowing, Jaime and the Hound could also be seen as forming a barrier against the Giant and as Jaime stand between the Giant and the Starks. I think Gravedigger is an apt end for the Hound’s arc, but if this is indeed foreshadowing, he’ll be prominent again in the books.

Or could it be Brienne with the helm of the Hound ? Mayhaps she begun a physical metamorphosis with half of her face eat by a "beast", and she shares many common points with Sandor Clegane. So, Sandor could have his real end as Gravedigger, but his personnal quest as the Hound could be taken by Brienne, the true knight (and the Hound could kill Robert Strong/UnGregor at the end).

 

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5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

It is UnGregor, UnJaime, and the UnHound (who is not Sandor).

No that is meritless nonsense. Part of the point of the passage is that Ungregor is undead as per the black blood under the helm. When Jaime and Sandor defeat him they will reveal what is under the helm, exposing him for an undead demon, the significance of which is that it will unmake Cersei given Qyburn and Ungregor are her men. Hence why it gets included in the vision. Jaime being undead would comically undermine the plot point, besides there being absolutely nothing to suggest he's going undead. And anyone with the slightest sense of theme will understand Sandor is going to be involved in bringing mercy to his brother.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No that is meritless nonsense. Part of the point of the passage is that Ungregor is undead as per the black blood under the helm.

The others are "shadows" too.  Shadow can mean a zombie creatureas in "A grimmer shadow leads us now."  But yes, Franken-Gregor is a slightly different kind of shadow, created by different methods.

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

When Jaime and Sandor defeat him they will reveal what is under the helm, exposing him for an undead demon, the significance of which is that it will unmake Cersei given Qyburn and Ungregor are her men.

The shadows menace Sansa and Arya, not each other.  Sansa will slay the savage giant, in a castle made of snow.

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Jaime being undead would comically undermine the plot point, ….

GRRM might not care about YOUR plot plans.

 

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

... besides there being absolutely nothing to suggest he's going undead. 

Well, there is certainly something to suggest he is DEAD.  He got lured into the woods alone, by a woman (herself apparently a fire zombie) who had taken a dying oath to slay him with her sword (called "Oathkeeper").  It was supposed to have been a one day ride, and now he has been missing for weeks.

I expect him to return.  But he will be … different.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The others are "shadows" too.  Shadow can mean a zombie creatureas in "A grimmer shadow leads us now."  But yes, Franken-Gregor is a slightly different kind of shadow, created by different methods.

The shadows menace Sansa and Arya, not each other.  Sansa will slay the savage giant, in a castle made of snow.

GRRM might not care about YOUR plot plans.

 

Well, there is certainly something to suggest he is DEAD.  He got lured into the woods alone, by a woman (herself apparently a fire zombie) who had taken a dying oath to slay him with her sword (called "Oathkeeper").  It was supposed to have been a one day ride, and now he has been missing for weeks.

I expect him to return.  But he will be … different.

Shadows do not always or even so often mean undead. Most often shadows are influence. Thick black blood does mean death. And if shadows meant undead in this instance there's no need for the thick black blood.

If the shadows are to have any relation to death here it would not be that they are undead characters all around the girls, they are not going to be surrounded by a bunch of happy fucking wights. It would be signalling the many characters, including Jaime and Sandor as the singled out shadows, will die in proximity or service to the girls, and for them to be significant enough to be included in this vision their deaths must be felt, be a real loss, a lesson, a tragedy. The shadows don't menace Sansa and Arya, you just made that up as you made up Jaime's death. The language used is that they are all around them.

It's not my plot, it is a continuation of GRRM's plot and themes which you fail to address in any sense.

Edited by chrisdaw

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