Platypus Rex Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 18 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said: Or could it be Brienne with the helm of the Hound ? Mayhaps she begun a physical metamorphosis with half of her face eat by a "beast", and she shares many common points with Sandor Clegane. So, Sandor could have his real end as Gravedigger, but his personnal quest as the Hound could be taken by Brienne, the true knight (and the Hound could kill Robert Strong/UnGregor at the end). There are so many Sandor-Brienne parallels that it is almost impossible not to suspect that they are being set up to be confused with each other. After losing half her face, and seemingly aging 10 years, it has reached the point where Brienne need do little more than put on the Hound helm to make the transformation near complete. However, "the Hound" and the "True Knight" (whose epitome, perhaps, is "The Sword of the Morning") are directly opposed identities. "The Hound" represents the soldier as savage beast and killer, driven by no virtue other than loyalty to his masters, and foreshadowing his role as relentless savage hunter. Think of the death of Micah to recall what "The Hound" is and was. Then look at the later embodiments of "The Hound": Rorge and Lem. If Brienne (or her reanimated corpse) becomes "The Hound", my guess is, she will no longer embody the virtues of a "True Knight". She will be a relentless hunter, whose role in undeath is to fulfill vengeful oaths. And if Sandor comes to embody the virtues of a "True Knight", he will no longer be recognizable as "The Hound." Neither will be recognizable as what they were, by word, deed or emblem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 5 hours ago, chrisdaw said: Shadows do not always or even so often mean undead. Most often shadows are influence. Thick black blood does mean death. And if shadows meant undead in this instance there's no need for the thick black blood. We are all just guessing here. But my approach is to make use of the words given. Your approach essentially discards the word "shadows" entirely, and makes it a synonym for "assorted people". Which may turn out to be the correct approach. But I am guessing that, in the end, following the available evidence stands a better chance of being correct, than ignoring the available evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 24 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: We are all just guessing here. But my approach is to make use of the words given. Your approach essentially discards the word "shadows" entirely, and makes it a synonym for "assorted people". Which may turn out to be the correct approach. But I am guessing that, in the end, following the available evidence stands a better chance of being correct, than ignoring the available evidence. No I'm not ignoring it. Shadow is most commonly used in the text to symbolise influence. I could fill the length of this page with quotes demonstrating that but it shouldn't be required. Arya and Sansa will have an influence on and be influenced by a great many people, the shadows, Jaime and Sandor very particularly by sheer volume. Sandor has already done so (more will come). Jaime is yet to come, but thats obviously part of his arc, in his own words Sansa Stark is his last chance for honour. You're trying to turn shadow into whatever you want it to be, you don't even keep it consistent between the two figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 9 hours ago, chrisdaw said: Shadow is most commonly used in the text to symbolise influence. Yes, a person's shadow can be a metaphor for a person's sphere of influence.That metaphor does not work here. These figures don't HAVE shadows. These persons ARE shadows. A shadow can also be a figure seen dimly or in silhouette, so that he or she resembles a shadow. That does not seem to apply here either. One of the shadows, for instance, is in shining golden armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said: Yes, a person's shadow can be a metaphor for a person's sphere of influence.That metaphor does not work here. These figures don't HAVE shadows. These persons ARE shadows. A shadow can also be a figure seen dimly or in silhouette, so that he or she resembles a shadow. That does not seem to apply here either. One of the shadows, for instance, is in shining golden armor. No it works perfectly fine. They're the shadows in Arya's and Sansa's arcs, they're the figures who will influence them, simple as day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aline de Gavrillac Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 On 3/4/2019 at 1:24 AM, By Odin's Beard said: I think the barriers between dreamworld and reality will break down in the next books: "Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes." I think the indications are that both brothers will turn to Ice, there is a bunch of Night's King symbolism working for Jon (evil name, being Lord Commander, he dreams of usurpation and claiming Winterfell for himself--indicates strong ambition barely kept under wraps, and he might come back more wolf than man). I know you didn't suggest this, but I don't buy that Jon is balance of Ice and Fire and will solve everything, there needs to be a twist. The Prince that was Promised was a prophecy, and prophecy will always bit your prick off every time. I think it is just as likely the PTWP is a recipe for the antichrist, and Jon could be the embodiment of the worst aspects of both families. Are the old powers waking though? Just what are the old powers? It is not fire because that has always been around. The Targaryens never went away. Their dragons were only gone for about 150 years. Give or take a decade here and there. That's not old. The old powers are things like Greendreaming and skin changing. Varamyr had it but the powers were absent on the southern side of the wall. The wall was blocking the power. Maybe the direwoves brought it across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 “Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.” I dont think this is Ungregor, he's looming over both Sandor and (Joff? Jaime?), who are in turn surrounding the Stark girls. Arya thinks the Hound is her enemy, Sansa and Arya think the Lannisters are their enemies. The bigger threat is someone else... “The device painted on the shield was one Sansa did not know; a grey stone head with fiery eyes, upon a light green field.” A giant in armor made of stone fits Littlefinger and his larger role in shaping the Stark girls' fates. He's far more central to their narrative than Ungregor. He's the one who created fArya after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/7/2019 at 5:56 AM, Platypus Rex said: These persons ARE shadows. Maybe it's the illusion of their power? I often think of Varys' riddle when shadows come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/3/2019 at 10:24 PM, By Odin's Beard said: Tyrion thinks Jon dreams of burning his family with dragonfire, and Jon weakly denies it. Tyrion implies that all Targs have dragon dreams an obsession with fire and burning people, Jon and Tyrion included. Wait... I must have missed this. When did Jon have an obsession with burning people? I think you are right about the PwwP having a twist, I just think its in the wrong direction. Jon does something quite normal but is heroic in the context. Something like protecting his family. He's a foil to Targaryens, not a clone. That's his purpose in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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