MCUniverse - Nick hath no Fury like an MRA troll

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Anyway what I meant with my half awake post, was that incels probably identify as incels, so using it as an insult doesn't really work. There was a discussion thread about it in Gen Chat a while ago. Scary shit.

It’s still a decent insult as most of those complaining don’t identify as incels ( they might be by virtue of being bedroom geeks)

[Darth Richard II]

On 3/7/2019 at 9:02 PM, karaddin said:

I'm going to be charitable and think they actually missed the thematic resonance of it, since the Vox review/the last few years have shown me that plenty of people will complain about things that they just missed. If they simply laser focused on the "girl power" part of the song it would be easy to miss the context that made it fitting.

Oh yeah after seeing the film I loved that part, it was great. Thought it was going to me way more jarring then it was from all the complaints. The problem now is that the song is stuck in my head.

[karaddin]

9 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh yeah after seeing the film I loved that part, it was great. Thought it was going to me way more jarring then it was from all the complaints. The problem now is that the song is stuck in my head.

Almost forgot this isn't the CM thread and dropped spoilers

Spoiler

I mean, it's also a mistake to think there was meant to be tension in that fight. As I've said a few times, the conflict was in whether their manipulation and control would hold - once it broke none of them posed even a minor threat to her and the entire sequence was meant to show that. She's even managing to do it with sufficient restraint to not kill them (at least most of them) which I take as a preemptive response to people complaining about her turning on her former team mates too easily.

But the thematic part I was referring to there which that complaint clearly missed is that "just a girl" in that context is as much "I'm just a human" as it is about gender - she's not what the Kree tried to make her believe she was, she's just a person who had been controlled.

 

[Relic]

Just remember that the next time you pay money to watch a Disney movie you are giving money to a corporation that just handed Rupert Murdoch 71 billion dollars to help him get Trump re-elected. 

 

""I know that the President spoke to Rupert Murdoch earlier today and congratulated him on the deal and thinks—to use one of the President's favorite words—'this could be a great thing for jobs' and [he] certainly looks forward to seeing a lot more of those created," spokesperson Sarah Sanders said then. "

[sifth]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

Almost forgot this isn't the CM thread and dropped spoilers

  Hide contents

I mean, it's also a mistake to think there was meant to be tension in that fight. As I've said a few times, the conflict was in whether their manipulation and control would hold - once it broke none of them posed even a minor threat to her and the entire sequence was meant to show that. She's even managing to do it with sufficient restraint to not kill them (at least most of them) which I take as a preemptive response to people complaining about her turning on her former team mates too easily.

But the thematic part I was referring to there which that complaint clearly missed is that "just a girl" in that context is as much "I'm just a human" as it is about gender - she's not what the Kree tried to make her believe she was, she's just a person who had been controlled.

 

So a climax without any tension is a good thing?

 

To be fair, this was an issue I had with Age of Ultron as well, where midway through the climax, if not sooner Ultron didn't even seem like he stood a chance against the Avengers. I sort of always hate when a hero beats his/her enemy too easily. It's just not fun seeing a one sided fight, IMO

[karaddin]

No, I'm saying

Spoiler

you're misidentifying the climax - its not "will she beat them once she's got her powers", its "will she be able to break free of the control that these people&AI have exerted over her by literally altering her mind and rewriting her memories". Its even echoing the earlier scene on the Skrull ship - the tension points are "will she break out of the memory machine" and "can she get the restraints off her hands" not "can she beat the shit out of the Skrulls if she can". It's a different style of story to some of the more standard templates but it isn't devoid of tension.

Now you can counter that by saying the movie didn't do a good job of making this difference clear, and although I thought it was clear the fact you didn't see it the same way is certainly a point in favour of that criticism. I just think criticism should be on what they failed to do rather than what they never intended.

 

[sifth]

50 minutes ago, karaddin said:

No, I'm saying

  Hide contents

you're misidentifying the climax - its not "will she beat them once she's got her powers", its "will she be able to break free of the control that these people&AI have exerted over her by literally altering her mind and rewriting her memories". Its even echoing the earlier scene on the Skrull ship - the tension points are "will she break out of the memory machine" and "can she get the restraints off her hands" not "can she beat the shit out of the Skrulls if she can". It's a different style of story to some of the more standard templates but it isn't devoid of tension.

Now you can counter that by saying the movie didn't do a good job of making this difference clear, and although I thought it was clear the fact you didn't see it the same way is certainly a point in favour of that criticism. I just think criticism should be on what they failed to do rather than what they never intended.

 

Not gona lie, I sort of forgot all about the whole control chip thing. I know it's briefly mentioned at the start of the film when she talks to the Supreme Intelligence, but after that it's never touched on again, for nearly 90 minutes. Maybe I would believe in the whole breaking away from the Kree's control thing, if she didn't spend the entire movie not listening to the instructions from her superiors and just doing things her own way. Simply put, until that brief moment where the Supreme Intelligence removes her powers for five minutes, I never got the sense that she was a slave. I mean sure in hindsight that's what she pretty much was, but the movie never really made me feel that she was, if that makes sense.

As a result her whole breaking away from their control moment wasn't very impactful for me. Don't get me wrong, it was my favorite scene in the movie, but mostly because I viewed it as Carol learning to accept her real identity and her true self.

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

 

  Hide contents

Not gona lie, I sort of forgot all about the whole control chip thing. I know it's briefly mentioned at the start of the film when she talks to the Supreme Intelligence, but after that it's never touched on again, for nearly 90 minutes. Maybe I would believe in the whole breaking away from the Kree's control thing, if she didn't spend the entire movie not listening to the instructions from her superiors and just doing things her own way. Simply put, until that brief moment where the Supreme Intelligence removes her powers for five minutes, I never got the sense that she was a slave. I mean sure in hindsight that's what she pretty much was, but the movie never really made me feel that she was, if that makes sense.

As a result her whole breaking away from their control moment wasn't very impactful for me. Don't get me wrong, it was my favorite scene in the movie, but mostly because I viewed it as Carol learning to accept her real identity and her true self.

 

We should probably move this to the dedicated thread, but I think that

Spoiler

You're thinking of control in the wrong way, its not an overt explicit style of control and its not the sort of control via a trigger word (if you're a gamer then would you kindly think of Bioshock for an example). It's the kind of control that millions of abusers have over their victims in real life. The type of control that is based on changing the victims perception of reality to align with what serves the abusers interests, in real life this is accomplished by isolating the victim from other social contact and gaslighting them to undermine their faith in their own perception of reality. In the movie this was done by literally rewriting her memories to show Skrull as the villains of her past trauma and show herself as a Kree whose powers were gifted to her by the Supreme Intelligence.

It did briefly escalate to an attempt at overt control in the showdown, but the outcome of that would have been altering her memories again to restore her to the state at the start of the movie and its what the rest of the team were expecting to come out of that communion - they were waiting for their overpowered team mate to return. It was not going to result in Carol's body essentially being an automaton run by the SI. The control chip also wasn't controlling her - it was just a dimmer switch for her powers that could also switch them to off.

 

[sifth]

9 hours ago, karaddin said:

We should probably move this to the dedicated thread, but I think that

  Reveal hidden contents

You're thinking of control in the wrong way, its not an overt explicit style of control and its not the sort of control via a trigger word (if you're a gamer then would you kindly think of Bioshock for an example). It's the kind of control that millions of abusers have over their victims in real life. The type of control that is based on changing the victims perception of reality to align with what serves the abusers interests, in real life this is accomplished by isolating the victim from other social contact and gaslighting them to undermine their faith in their own perception of reality. In the movie this was done by literally rewriting her memories to show Skrull as the villains of her past trauma and show herself as a Kree whose powers were gifted to her by the Supreme Intelligence.

It did briefly escalate to an attempt at overt control in the showdown, but the outcome of that would have been altering her memories again to restore her to the state at the start of the movie and its what the rest of the team were expecting to come out of that communion - they were waiting for their overpowered team mate to return. It was not going to result in Carol's body essentially being an automaton run by the SI. The control chip also wasn't controlling her - it was just a dimmer switch for her powers that could also switch them to off.

 

I see what your saying, but I still don't agree.

 

By the moment of the twist that the Kree were using her, in the movie she pretty much betrayed them already and was helping the Skrulls, so again I really never was given the sense that Carol was brainwashed to blindly hate them. The moment she sat down and talked with one they were able to settle things in about five minutes. Sure that's what they tried to do, but considering all of her confrontations with them were the result of self defense it was never portrayed that way. They needed moments of Carrol confronting the Skrulls without reason or provocation; which is something this film never gave us. btw: if you want to move this to the other thread, I'm cool with that, I just don't know how to quote your stuff in another thread.

[The Anti-Targ]

20 hours ago, Heartofice said:

 

As for incels, yes they are a tiny but very sad part of the internet , guys almost certainly with mental issues and disorders who have decided the dating game works against them and so have avowed to stay out of it altogether. It leads to some quite angry men complaining about the way the world works to each other. But they are tiny and insignificant really.

That sounds more like MGTOWs. Incels desperately want in, but have convinced themselves they have no chance.

[karaddin]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

I see what your saying, but I still don't agree.

 

  Hide contents

By the moment of the twist that the Kree were using her in the movie she pretty much betrayed them already and was helping the Skrulls, so again I really never was given the sense that Carol was brainwashed to blindly hate them. The moment she sat down and talked with one they were able to settle things in about five minutes. Sure that's what they tried to do, but considering all of her confrontations with them were the result of self defense it was never portrayed that way. They needed moments of Carrol confronting the Skrulls without reason or provocation; which is something this film never gave us. btw: if you want to movie this to the other thread, I'm cool with that, I just don't know how to quote your stuff in another thread.

 

Probably no need. I had a different interpretation of some of that stuff but I think your different reading there is legitimate - the movie just worked better for me, so no actual disagreement to resolve.

[The Anti-Targ]

7 hours ago, sifth said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Not gona lie, I sort of forgot all about the whole control chip thing. I know it's briefly mentioned at the start of the film when she talks to the Supreme Intelligence, but after that it's never touched on again, for nearly 90 minutes. Maybe I would believe in the whole breaking away from the Kree's control thing, if she didn't spend the entire movie not listening to the instructions from her superiors and just doing things her own way. Simply put, until that brief moment where the Supreme Intelligence removes her powers for five minutes, I never got the sense that she was a slave. I mean sure in hindsight that's what she pretty much was, but the movie never really made me feel that she was, if that makes sense.

As a result her whole breaking away from their control moment wasn't very impactful for me. Don't get me wrong, it was my favorite scene in the movie, but mostly because I viewed it as Carol learning to accept her real identity and her true self.

 

 

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

We should probably move this to the dedicated thread, but I think that

  Reveal hidden contents

You're thinking of control in the wrong way, its not an overt explicit style of control and its not the sort of control via a trigger word (if you're a gamer then would you kindly think of Bioshock for an example). It's the kind of control that millions of abusers have over their victims in real life. The type of control that is based on changing the victims perception of reality to align with what serves the abusers interests, in real life this is accomplished by isolating the victim from other social contact and gaslighting them to undermine their faith in their own perception of reality. In the movie this was done by literally rewriting her memories to show Skrull as the villains of her past trauma and show herself as a Kree whose powers were gifted to her by the Supreme Intelligence.

It did briefly escalate to an attempt at overt control in the showdown, but the outcome of that would have been altering her memories again to restore her to the state at the start of the movie and its what the rest of the team were expecting to come out of that communion - they were waiting for their overpowered team mate to return. It was not going to result in Carol's body essentially being an automaton run by the SI. The control chip also wasn't controlling her - it was just a dimmer switch for her powers that could also switch them to off.

 

Y'see I would have gone with Mass Effect 2

Spoiler

In that, there was dialogue where Miranda Lawson said she advocated for putting a "loyalty" chip in Shepard's head, but the Elusive Man said "no" because he wanted Shepard to be his / her true heroic, inspirational self and putting a control chip in his / her head could screw that up.

 

[Darth Richard II]

Mass Effect 2 sucks! *throws down gauntlet*

[karaddin]

42 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Y'see I would have gone with Mass Effect 2

 

That was a quote box not a spoiler  Might want to fix it

Would you kindly fix that to use a spoiler box. 

Can't believe I missed that opportunity on the first try

[Bastard of Boston]

Gotta say, I do enjoy reading peoples' rankings for the MCU. It's awesome to me that we're over 20 movies strong at this point, with enough films to truly "know" who someone is based on their rankings. You can "find" the person's identity somewhere in the middle of their rankings. Everyone seems to have the same top 5 in some variation.

[Corvinus85]

10 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Mass Effect 2 sucks! *throws down gauntlet*

Credibility lost.

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

Gotta say, I do enjoy reading peoples' rankings for the MCU. It's awesome to me that we're over 20 movies strong at this point, with enough films to truly "know" who someone is based on their rankings.

It is fun to do - and I am curious where Captain Marvel "officially" ranks in my head...

Winter Soldier

Iron Man

Avengers

Black Panther

Guardians 1

Ragnarok

Civil War

Infinity War

Ant Man

Captain Marvel

Ultron

Captain America

Spider-Man

Guardians 2

Thor

Ant Man and the Wasp

Doctor Strange

Hulk

Iron Man 2

Dark World

Iron Man 3

So, 10 out of 21 for me on Captain Marvel.  A couple spots lower than I thought actually.  Fair to say that's very likely to change on multiple viewings.  Also, only the bottom three are one's I'd say I don't like - I even have a guilty pleasure for Hulk.

[Fez]

10 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Mass Effect 2 sucks! *throws down gauntlet*

Them's fighting words.

[Bastard of Boston]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

It is fun to do - and I am curious where Captain Marvel "officially" ranks in my head...

Winter Soldier

Iron Man

Avengers

Black Panther

Guardians 1

Ragnarok

Civil War

Infinity War

Ant Man

Captain Marvel

Ultron

Captain America

Spider-Man

Guardians 2

Thor

Ant Man and the Wasp

Doctor Strange

Hulk

Iron Man 2

Dark World

Iron Man 3

So, 10 out of 21 for me on Captain Marvel.  A couple spots lower than I thought actually.  Fair to say that's very likely to change on multiple viewings.  Also, only the bottom three are one's I'd say I don't like - I even have a guilty pleasure for Hulk.

I've noticed many people placing Captain Marvel in the middle. I don't think I've seen any that have it top five or bottom five. For me, it's number 8 -- I liked it A LOT. It's in my middle mostly because the movies before it are so special to me. It would take a lot to crack my top 5. The most shocking thing about your rankings is IW. It's my numero uno! That movie was such a culmination of much blood and sweat.

1.    Avengers: Infinity War
2.    Captain America: Civil War
3.    Captain America: Winter Soldier
4.    Black Panther
5.    Avengers
6.    Spider-Man: Homecoming
7.    Captain America: The First Avenger
8.    Captain Marvel
9.    Doctor Strange
10.    Iron Man 1
11.    Avengers: Age of Ultron
12.    Thor: Ragnarok
13.    Ant-Man
14.    Ant-Man and the Wasp
15.    Thor: The Dark World
16.    Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2
17.    Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 1
18.    Thor
19.    Iron Man 2
20.    Iron Man 3
21.    Incredible Hulk

[Corvinus85]

35 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

I've noticed many people placing Captain Marvel in the middle. I don't think I've seen any that have it top five or bottom five. For me, it's number 8 -- I liked it A LOT. It's in my middle mostly because the movies before it are so special to me. It would take a lot to crack my top 5. The most shocking thing about your rankings is IW. It's my numero uno! That movie was such a culmination of much blood and sweat.

1.    Avengers: Infinity War
2.    Captain America: Civil War
3.    Captain America: Winter Soldier
4.    Black Panther
5.    Avengers
6.    Spider-Man: Homecoming
7.    Captain America: The First Avenger
8.    Captain Marvel
9.    Doctor Strange
10.    Iron Man 1
11.    Avengers: Age of Ultron
12.    Thor: Ragnarok
13.    Ant-Man
14.    Ant-Man and the Wasp
15.    Thor: The Dark World
16.    Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2
17.    Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 1
18.    Thor
19.    Iron Man 2
20.    Iron Man 3
21.    Incredible Hulk

Ha, no more shocking that your Guardians rankings.

Here's mine, but I do need to see Captain Marvel at least one more time to hammer it down.

1. Avengers: Infinity War
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Captain America: Civil War
4. Thor Ragnarok
5. Guardians of the Galaxy
6. Spider-Man: Homecoming
7. Avengers
8. Black Panther
9. Iron Man
10. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
11. Ant-Man
12. Captain America: The First Avenger
13. Captain Marvel (for now)
14. Dr. Strange
15. Ant-Man and the Wasp
16. Thor
17. Thor: The Dark World
18. Avengers: Age of Ultron
19. Iron Man 3
20. Iron Man 2
21. The Incredible Hulk