How can Bran be the Night King if there's no NK in the books?

[BalerionTheCat]

21 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I still think you are wrong and I stress the word think, where you are stating this as you being 100% factually correct.  GRRM himself has said that the history portrayed is sketchy and often downright incorrect.

You have a lot of "may" and "possible" that I feel improbable. And when we need all of them, we multiply the probabilities. And quickly reach the zero (or insignificant) probability. Same for my hypothesis.

I use often "I believe". Meaning, I believe it's the highest probability. But understanding it's not a validated, 100% sure fact. Sometimes I forget the "believe". But it's the same. Whatever we write, so long as it's not in GRRM books, could be wrong. I'm ready to consider any argument suggesting I'm wrong here. But your arguments are not reaching me. But I must confess I absolutely hate this D&D idea (if it is theirs) of the CotF creating the Others specifically as a weapon against the men.

24 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Bran as the NK is IMO a dumb theory and if the story ends with some kind of time travel Bran induced deus ex machina, that will be very disappointing.

Same for me. We are not in a SF novel about time travel.

[Ser Gareth]

37 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Bran as the NK is IMO a dumb theory and if the story ends with some kind of time travel Bran induced deus ex machina, that will be very disappointing.  That said, it seems probable that there is some leader of the Others that will be revealed in the books that have not been written, whether he's styled the Night King seems fairly irrelevant. I def. think that the Children created the Others though, I agree, the showrunners are not creative enough to have come up with that on their own.  That too is from the books that have not been written.

I don't subscribe to Bran being the NK either.  But unfortunately I do believe there is going to be some kind of time manipulation in there.

There has to be a reason that, despite it being stressed to Bran that you can't go back and change or influence the past, for "Hold the Door".  It demonstrates that Bran's raw power is well beyond the norm and I can't help but believe it is setting up some kind of future (past?!) highly significant event.

[T and A]

19 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

 

The CotF and the WW live both in the north of Westeros. But not just there. There were WW apparently everywhere during the previous LN. I'm convinced the CotF didn't create them. At least not to fight the First Men invading Westeros.  But I would very much like to know what exactly happened between them.

 

And you are dead wrong here.

[BalerionTheCat]

12 minutes ago, T and A said:

And you are dead wrong here.

The Pact of the Isle of Faces, long before the LN, and TWoIaF tells me differently. Between these and D&D, I made my choice.

[T and A]

10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Pact of the Isle of Faces, long before the LN, and TWoIaF tells me differently. Between these and D&D, I made my choice.

So? How do you know what happend between the pact of the isle and the LN? As far as we know several centuries could have passed. A long time for each side to break the pact or something to happen that made them break the pact. Or it could be that the pact happend after they created them, but it took several centuries for the WW to have an army strong enough to be a danger to humanity, thus the LN took several centuries after the pact of the isle and the creation of the others. There is no contradiction whatsoever. We have no idea (from the books), when what happend. GRRM recently stated that the long night took place 5000 years ago, and not as suposed by the maester in TWOIAF 8000 years ago. So TWOIAF is off to 3000 years from the actual story. Just to give you a small comparison: 3000 years ago, the egyptians build the pyramids here on earth. TWOIAF is bullshit when it comes to LN.

[Bradam]

Possibly the white walkers existed long before the children made one, the children simply knew how to make another?  Or how to turn one of the first men into one.  Or maybe the original walkers were wiped out, but the children quasi resurrected one using that first man's body?  Endless possibilities really.

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, Bradam said:

Possibly the white walkers existed long before the children made one, the children simply knew how to make another?  Or how to turn one of the first men into one.  Or maybe the original walkers were wiped out, but the children quasi resurrected one using that first man's body?  Endless possibilities really.

Everything is possible, with a stretch of imagination, and a lot of ifs. But some things are simply (I like simplicity) more likely. Not meaning I'm right. But lacking evidences (beside D&D words), I'm sticking to the facts of TWoIaF, as they are presented.

BTW, how is it the CoTF created the Others (and the Great Other, R'hllor's adversary), if there is no NK (as the OP supposes and not many seem to contest)? The NK who was supposed to have created the other Others, according to D&D.

[T and A]

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Everything is possible, with a stretch of imagination, and a lot of ifs. But some things are simply (I like simplicity) more likely. Not meaning I'm right. But lacking evidences (beside D&D words), I'm sticking to the facts of TWoIaF, as they are presented.

BTW, how is it the CoTF created the Others (and the Great Other, R'hllor's adversary), if there is no NK (as the OP supposes and not many seem to contest)? The NK who was supposed to have created the other Others, according to D&D.

You keep saying that with such confidency as it was a known fact that there is no NK in the books (or a being similar to that in the show). How do you know there is not a leader of the WW? A first born so to speak? Until now, we have five books, and no informations about the Others whatsoever. Don't you think GRRM won't reveal something about them, that you yet don't know? Do you think he put everything about the Others in that fake history book and spoiled everything?

[BalerionTheCat]

10 hours ago, T and A said:

You keep saying that with such confidency as it was a known fact that there is no NK in the books (or a being similar to that in the show). How do you know there is not a leader of the WW? A first born so to speak? Until now, we have five books, and no informations about the Others whatsoever. Don't you think GRRM won't reveal something about them, that you yet don't know? Do you think he put everything about the Others in that fake history book and spoiled everything?

We know next to nothing about the books WW. They could have "officers" or leaders or different factions, more or less hostile. I don't know and I would not make assumptions. I just don't think the CotF made the first one. Or if they did, it was before there were men to fight against. And I don't think either this one made the others.

I'm not saying "it was a known fact that there is no NK in the books". But it is an hypothesis in this thread's title, and I don't see many contesting it.

There is not much about the Others in this history book. But enough to see they existed before the LN. It is spoiling nothing, so long as you believe it's fake history. The Yi Ti part comes from the "Jade Compendium", a book given by Maester Aemon to Jon. So it belongs to the ASoIaF universe. And is the best references available about the LN anyway.

Additionally, it's not GRRM style to introduce something late in the story, without some clue, hint earlier. Like Varys' (f)Aegon and the unrecognizable baby in 1st book. So the Yi Ti legend make, sense, the Great Other make sense, but not the NK who have no hint anywhere.

[T and A]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

We know next to nothing about the books WW. They could have "officers" or leaders or different factions, more or less hostile. I don't know and I would not make assumptions. I just don't think the CotF made the first one. Or if they did, it was before there were men to fight against. And I don't think either this one made the others.

I'm not saying "it was a known fact that there is no NK in the books". But it is an hypothesis in this thread's title, and I don't see many contesting it.

There is not much about the Others in this history book. But enough to see they existed before the LN. It is spoiling nothing, so long as you believe it's fake history. The Yi Ti part comes from the "Jade Compendium", a book given by Maester Aemon to Jon. So it belongs to the ASoIaF universe. And is the best references available about the LN anyway.

Additionally, it's not GRRM style to introduce something late in the story, without some clue, hint earlier. Like Varys' (f)Aegon and the unrecognizable baby in 1st book. So the Yi Ti legend make, sense, the Great Other make sense, but not the NK who have no hint anywhere.

But we are way deeper in the show, than we are in the books. You make the wrong assumtion, that the NK in the show is that 13th LC from Old Nans tales. But he is not. And this NK of the show has yet to appear in the books. You are dissmissing a figure that was not even introduced to the readers yet.

[BalerionTheCat]

19 hours ago, T and A said:

But we are way deeper in the show, than we are in the books. You make the wrong assumtion, that the NK in the show is that 13th LC from Old Nans tales. But he is not. And this NK of the show has yet to appear in the books. You are dissmissing a figure that was not even introduced to the readers yet.

I'm not making such assumption. The 13th LC was a man living after the LN. After the WW existence was a fact. I believe the NK of the show (i.e. the initial WW, created by the CotF, as a weapon against human, even before the Pact and never used) has no equivalence in the books. Not at the current narration point. And not later. Not this specifically. Because I don't think it's possible, given what GRRM wrote so far.  It may change later (I don't think it likely), but with what is available now, it is my POV.

[T and A]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm not making such assumption. The 13th LC was a man living after the LN. After the WW existence was a fact. I believe the NK of the show (i.e. the initial WW, created by the CotF, as a weapon against human, even before the Pact and never used) has no equivalence in the books. Not at the current narration point. And not later. Not this specifically. Because I don't think it's possible, given what GRRM wrote so far.  It may change later (I don't think it likely), but with what is available now, it is my POV.

And that is exactly what I meant. Not for now, obviously. But you are still two books away from the story to catch up with the show.

[BalerionTheCat]

12 minutes ago, T and A said:

And that is exactly what I meant. Not for now, obviously. But you are still two books away from the story to catch up with the show.

Exactly. Not with what is known today.

[T and A]

15 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Exactly. Not with what is known today.

I never was arguing that we have already hints of the leader of the WW in the books  because at this point, we have basically no informations about the WW. But sooner or later, this must change. I am sure, there will be a leader to the WW. And I am 100% sure, the Show showed us this version. In the books he will be probably much more fleshed out. He may even be a Protostark or another leader of the northeners. My point is, he will show up in the books (if ever finished, which is even less likely).

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, T and A said:

I never was arguing that we have already hints of the leader of the WW in the books  because at this point, we have basically no informations about the WW. But sooner or later, this must change. I am sure, there will be a leader to the WW. And I am 100% sure, the Show showed us this version. In the books he will be probably much more fleshed out. He may even be a Protostark or another leader of the northeners. My point is, he will show up in the books (if ever finished, which is even less likely).

You are 100% sure of the show accuracy. OK, good for you. But that doesn't change my estimation by one epsilon.

I'm sure of things at various degrees. I would not boast 100%, but I'm pretty sure the show is doing fan service by inventing a weapon created to fight humans, not at the right time, and out of control. And a NK worthy of a freakshow.

Of course the WW will have some command structure. I'm not denying that. But what D&D invented is IMO bad taste fantasy. I can't believe GRRM will have the same.

[T and A]

39 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

You are 100% sure of the show accuracy. OK, good for you. But that doesn't change my estimation by one epsilon.

I'm sure of things at various degrees. I would not boast 100%, but I'm pretty sure the show is doing fan service by inventing a weapon created to fight humans, not at the right time, and out of control. And a NK worthy of a freakshow.

Of course the WW will have some command structure. I'm not denying that. But what D&D invented is IMO bad taste fantasy. I can't believe GRRM will have the same.

I think we reached a point, where er can not argue against each other anymore . 

[BalerionTheCat]

21 hours ago, T and A said:

I think we reached a point, where er can not argue against each other anymore . 

We have not the same taste here. And we do not value the same evidences. It was obvious from the beginning. Nothing wrong. I was not trying to convince you. I was just trying to state my freedom to think differently of you.

[T and A]

17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

We have not the same taste here. And we do not value the same evidences. It was obvious from the beginning. Nothing wrong. I was not trying to convince you. I was just trying to state my freedom to think differently of you.

I know. That is why I said, that a further discussion might lead to knowehere. Didn't  meant it rude or anything. We have different opinions, that neither of us can prove at this point. Both of us could be right or wrong. 

[NonoNono]

Azor Ahai seems like someone who discovered how to get the WW's power, and since he is worshiped as one who defeated the Others, I assume he fought them with said WW-like power. In the story it says he stabbed his wife in the heart with his sword, he was trying to create a weapon, and it sounds a lot like creating the NK with dragonglass to the heart. The symbol of R'hlor's faith is a flaming heart, which can be allegorical of a heart burning from frozen fire (dragon glass). So in an attempt to forge a weapon to defeat WWs, he create one by stabbing his wife in the heart, and I think what it did is turn her into a WW. It would line up with the 13th commander in the books, who would be Azor Ahai.

Essentially, stealing the power of the gods to fight them. Presumably, the prince who was promised, if he is indeed Azor Ahai "reborn", is someone who was promised to do the same once more. His "song" is the song of ice and fire because to come to exist he has to use frozen fire. Maybe the song is how to do the deed to get the WW-like powers. But the question is promised by whom, to whom, and why?

[BalerionTheCat]

On 3/24/2019 at 2:40 AM, NonoNono said:

So in an attempt to forge a weapon to defeat WWs, he create one by stabbing his wife in the heart, and I think what it did is turn her into a WW. It would line up with the 13th commander in the books, who would be Azor Ahai.

Interesting idea. The woman of the 13th LC would by Azor Ahai's wife. After he stabbed her. After the sword took her life and made something new of her. I like it when we may draw lines between points. Even if it is highly speculative.

The last hero sought the CotF with a dozen companions. It is speculated the companions were exactly 12. And were named, in memory, the first 12 LC. So the last hero would be the 13th, and if not AA, would have a parallel history.

But was it a weapon to fight Others? Or a pact with them? Against something else. I would rather believe the later.

Another of the hero's name was Eldric Shadowchaser. It rather suggests he was fighting the shadows. But who is "the God of Flame and Shadow"? R'hllor. The enemy of the Great Other. Whatever you think of the Others, the shadowbinders, the bloodmages and Ashai are not your friends. Neither the red priests and their taste for slavery and sacrifices.

It is said AA, the hero of the LN, "arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle". But it is not said who was the enemy. There are obviously contradicting and misleading facts. But I would gamble, for ending the LN, on a pact with the Others against the "fire and shadow friends", the R'hllor's followers, the kinslayers and sinners of various kind.