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US Politics: compromising positions


DanteGabriel

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24 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

In the Trump era, they can't even pass partisan bills because of rank incompetence. Not even the beloved wall. They only got the shutdown bill done by barring Trump from touching it. 

On Obama. 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/01/16/obamas_unsung_bipartisan_legacy_132798.html

 

I said what I said and stand by it. The overwhelming majority of the examples in that opinion piece were from 2010 or earlier. The two that weren't were Obama giving in for the tax bullshit and the incredibly stupid sequester that fucked him over again and again. 

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6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Trump's unmoving popularity rating doesn't bear this out. 

It...does, actually. Right now trump is unpopular and continues to be so. What do you think happens if he gets something done, and he works with dems to get it? Do you think his popularity will increase or decline?

(The answer is that it'll increase, as it did for a bit when he did the prison reform. Which from a strategy perspective is probably not what dems want. )

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11 minutes ago, DMC said:

@DanteGabriel pointed out last thread the Billy Joel-ness of when the Republican party started to be, well, a bunch of dicks.  To put it nicely.  I think he went back to Nixon.  But if you want a specific moment, it's LBJ signing the CRA.  That was what guaranteed the Southern Dem racists would align with the elite GOP racists within one party, eventually.  And that's Trump's base.

 

Oh, I certainly don't deny that but that seed took a long time to bear any fruit. There was certainly a willingness to be bipartisan up until, at the very least, the 90's. The signing of the CRA may have laid the foundation for today's Republican party, but Newt Fucking Gingrich built the whole house with his utter, partisan depravity and pursuit of power and victory at any cost.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Huh?  Where's that increase?  I don't see it.

It was announced right before midterms, got press during, and peaked shortly after it was signed on 12/11. His popularity during that time went up about 3 aggregate points. It then cratered right after due to the shutdown. 

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1 minute ago, Durckad said:

Newt Fucking Gingrich built the whole house with his utter, partisan depravity and pursuit of power and victory at any cost.

Meh, if it wasn't Gingrich it would have been someone else.  Lee Atwater just died young.  Making Billy Joel a liar.  Man, honestly didn't mean to reference him consecutively.

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It was announced right before midterms, got press during, and peaked shortly after it was signed on 12/11. His popularity during that time went up about 3 aggregate points. It then cratered right after due to the shutdown. 

First of all, I don't know what you're talking about - his approval AND disapproval varied a point, maybe a point and a half, from the beginning of October to the shutdown.  Second, just in terms of analysis 101 man, gotta consider multicollinearity during that time frame.

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48 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Moving the goal posts. Again, where did I say this justifies anything they do? You keep accusing me of that, but you aren't showing me where I said that. I never said it would result in wonderous things and it'd change the world. You take what you can get and don't leave people rot in prison and die from not being able to afford their meds because of pride. 

Again to my main point, and the title of this thread, which you repeatedly refuse to even answer, is:

 

I would have had an easier time figuring out what you were talking about if you could figure out how to link or quote worth a damn.

But I originally said that the Republican Party is so divorced from reality and so committed to their plutocratic criminal masters that they can't be trusted to negotiate with. You came up with... one actual, passed law. If you want to throw a party for that and declare them worth working with, go ahead and be a sucker and apologist for a criminal caucus. My point about the character of the party still stands. No amount of handwaving or OMG SHINY from you because Grassley co-sponsored a nothing bill with Klobuchar will change that.

I'm talking about the Republicans' abandonment of science, willingness to ignore climate change, and wholesale embrace of corruption, inequality, and vicious foreign dictators, and you want to give them credit for a watered down prison reform bill.

37 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm sure the people rotting in prison and those who can't get their meds agree. And McCain saved the ACA. Would you have let the ACA get repealed because you refused to try for those necessary Republican votes? 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/obamacare/mccain-hated-obamacare-he-also-saved-it-n904106

LOL, McCain "saved" the ACA from a single REPUBLICAN attempt to destroy it. And he made sure to make it as dramatic and camera-worthy as possible, One dead gloryhound "maverick" is your argument for the good faith of the Republican Party?

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30 minutes ago, Lollygag said:
1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

That this is the first example and only example of an actual bipartisan bill worth anything that has passed since 2011 should indicate precisely how iseful compromise is. 

In the Trump era, they can't even pass partisan bills because of rank incompetence. Not even the beloved wall. They only got the shutdown bill done by barring Trump from touching it. 

On Obama. 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/01/16/obamas_unsung_bipartisan_legacy_132798.html

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I said what I said and stand by it. The overwhelming majority of the examples in that opinion piece were from 2010 or earlier. The two that weren't were Obama giving in for the tax bullshit and the incredibly stupid sequester that fucked him over again and again. 

McCain was the vote that saved the ACA. And Republican John Roberts pushed it though the Supreme Court. So just because it doesn't produce a desired level of results, no one should try? That would screw over a lot of people who have benefited from working with Republicans on prison reform, various health care issues, whatnot. 

Here's another. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-health-202/2019/03/04/the-health-202-senators-say-they-re-serious-about-tackling-surprise-medical-bills/5c7c1f811b326b2d177d5fb1/?utm_term=.66e4467b2ac2

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Lollygag said:
1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, Alexander and Murray worked on making the ACA better. It went precisely zero meters. 

There is currently very little incentive for either party to work with each other, but it is especially the case for dems working with the GOP. Dems are better off framing everything this government does as illegitimate. 

Trump's unmoving popularity rating doesn't bear this out. 

 

22 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It...does, actually. Right now trump is unpopular and continues to be so. What do you think happens if he gets something done, and he works with dems to get it? Do you think his popularity will increase or decline?

(The answer is that it'll increase, as it did for a bit when he did the prison reform. Which from a strategy perspective is probably not what dems want. )

I'll be convinced when there's a consistent change in his popularity rating. Depending on the policy, this also helps Democrats. A lot and primarily in the swing districts which gave the Ds the majority. Refusing to work with Trump on principle and especially on widely popular bills puts the House at risk again. And I just don't agree with putting people in the crosshairs. 

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18 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

LOL, McCain "saved" the ACA from a single REPUBLICAN attempt to destroy it.

Not only that, I guess the two Republican women that were already against it get no credit.

18 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

And Republican John Roberts pushed it though the Supreme Court. So just because it doesn't produce a desired level of results, no one should try? That would screw over a lot of people who have benefited from working with Republicans on prison reform, various health care issues, whatnot. 

How can anyone outside of eight other people work with John Roberts to compromise?  What relevance does that have to do with anything?  What health care issues have the GOP compromised on?  Please explain.

19 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I give up. Good luck everyone else.

I'll probably get yelled at for referencing this these days, but you really reminded me..

 

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31 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I would have had an easier time figuring out what you were talking about if you could figure out how to link or quote worth a damn. 

But I originally said that the Republican Party is so divorced from reality and so committed to their plutocratic criminal masters that they can't be trusted to negotiate with. You came up with... one actual, passed law. If you want to throw a party for that and declare them worth working with, go ahead and be a sucker and apologist for a criminal caucus. My point about the character of the party still stands. No amount of handwaving or OMG SHINY from you because Grassley co-sponsored a nothing bill with Klobuchar will change that.

I'm talking about the Republicans' abandonment of science, willingness to ignore climate change, and wholesale embrace of corruption, inequality, and vicious foreign dictators, and you want to give them credit for a watered down prison reform bill.

Yeah, I'm not buying the bolded. That's a level of intelligence that's unbelievable given how often I've repeated myself.

Again, I never said the Republicans are to be praised especially as a whole so I don't get why you keep bringing it up. 

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Again to my main point, and the title of this thread, which you repeatedly refuse to even answer, is:

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Are you really taking the position that Republicans never, ever do anything good? It sounds like it. I'd like you to clarify if I have that wrong. And I noticed again that you won't answer this question.  

38 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Dude, no one is saying go along with them when they take positions like that. What exactly are you suggesting? Give up completely because you won't get 100%? 

Here, I showed that sometimes they can be counted on to do some good stuff. You take advantage of that if you can get it. And if you can't get it, you keep trying different methods. I don't get this fatalism thing. 

 

You're still not answering how doing nothing and (implicitly) taking the position that Republicans only do bad things is better than doing nothing, especially given the costs to people. Your argument that it hurts Trump is likely to cost the D's the House. You're cutting of your nose to spite your face. 

 

36 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

LOL, McCain "saved" the ACA from a single REPUBLICAN attempt to destroy it. And he made sure to make it as dramatic and camera-worthy as possible, One dead gloryhound "maverick" is your argument for the good faith of the Republican Party?

Yeah, like I said, my position isn't that Republicans are good and I never said any such thing. It's that not working with them though hurts people. Not "compromising" and refusing to deal with ones that you could deal with would have led to no more ACA. Check out the numbers. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/25/us/politics/senate-votes-repeal-obamacare.html

 

 

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1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, I'm not buying the bolded. That's a level of intelligence that's unbelievable given how often I've repeated myself.

Again, I never said the Republicans are to be praised especially as a whole so I don't get why you keep bringing it up. 

You're still not answering how doing nothing and (implicitly) taking the position that Republicans only do bad things is better than doing nothing, especially given the costs to people. Your argument that it hurts Trump is likely to cost the D's the House. You're cutting of your nose to spite your face. 

 

Yeah, like I said, my position isn't that Republicans are good and I never said any such thing. It's that not working with them though hurts people. Not "compromising" and refusing to deal with ones that you could deal with would have led to no more ACA. Check out the numbers. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/25/us/politics/senate-votes-repeal-obamacare.html

 

 

Edit this please. 

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41 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

You know, as someone who may soon not be able to afford his insulin he needs TO LIVE, I’d just like to say, no, fuck the GOP. In the ass. With Excalibur.

That's your personal choice and I'm sorry you're in that situation. But I'm sure others would appreciate you not trying to make that same decision for them. Pretty sure most would adamantly disagree. 

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In my state (Alaska), we unwisely put a republican in the governors mansion this last election.  The conservatives were all on board with him at the time.  But, a few weeks ago, he put forth his budget proposal - draconian, across the board cuts to everything, roads, education, and more.  Cuts so deep that even a substantial fraction of republican lawmakers are balking - one said 'we'd be living like cavemen if we passed this budget,' and detailed a long list of things that'd get hit hard.  That prompted a fair number of the base to go 'wtf?  This wasn't supposed to happen.'  Kind of a 'rhetoric verses reality' thing.  Or, there are lines that the saner republicans will seek to avoid crossing for fear of the base.

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2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The second part of your post is kinda really blurred with the quotes from your other post. Very nauseous to read. That’s the only real problem I really have in your post.

I don't think that's me. I'm seeing some really weird stuff on the forum tonight. A number of posts are completely run off the page and aligned in columns in a weird way. It seems to be getting jankier, too. 

It looks normal to me but I had to do some weird copy/paste on that post because the forum kept deleting random parts of the post, wouldn't let me submit, and then came up with an unspecified "required field" notice. I had to log out, and log in again and then copy/paste/rewrite to get it out. Maybe that's what's happening.

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