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DanteGabriel

US Politics: compromising positions

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46 minutes ago, DMC said:

Not only that, I guess the two Republican women that were already against it get no credit.

How can anyone outside of eight other people work with John Roberts to compromise?  What relevance does that have to do with anything?  What health care issues have the GOP compromised on?  Please explain.

I'll probably get yelled at for referencing this these days, but you really reminded me..

 

Ha! That’s what I was thinking of when I wrote that, yes. 

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12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think Mcsally is a brave woman.

Cheers to that.

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5 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Republicans got to run their pure Reaganomics experience in Kansas, with terrible results. The state budget deficit exploded, social services had to be slashed, education plummeted, and there was no growth boost to speak of.

Even better, there is evidence that it may have actually harmed growth. Since Kansas obviously doesn't have it's own Central Bank, when aggregate demand declined as a result of the cuts, it had no way to offset it by lowering the interest rate (well it would it would have been hard for even the FED to have done so at the time). And then add in hysteresis effects from things like not investing in education and roads and so forth.

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

That's your personal choice and I'm sorry you're in that situation. But I'm sure others would appreciate you not trying to make that same decision for them. Pretty sure most would adamantly disagree. 

What choice? His choice to fucking live?

If you're talking about his choice to fuck the GOP in the ass, do you actually blame him? How would you feel in a situation where one party is trying to help you, and the other is telling you to fuck off or work harder because it's obviously your fault for not working hard enough to pay for the privilege of living. Can you honestly say the GOP gives a fuck? Really gives a fuck and not just maybe nibbles at low-hanging fruit? They've had ample time to actually bring a solution - good or bad - to the table and they've punted over and over again. Repeal and replace, but they've only ever tried repeal and hope we forget about the replace part because healthcare is hard y'all. Who knew it was so complicated?

If the GOP had ever shown interest in this issue, then I'd agree that there could be value in reaching out to them, but they haven't. They just go limp like a two-year old throwing a tantrum so we're gonna have to drag that dead weight over the goal line. A goal line that the majority of the population agrees with, btw. It's not like it's radical.

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Well, I contacted my representative and senators for the first time in a while. I generally don't do that  because I think it usually doesn't matter, they usually don't have any power over the issue, and I'm usually in agreement with them on the issues anyway.

But I'm pissed off about Ilhan Omar's comments and even angrier about the Democratic officeholders who are defending them. Since its an inter-party issue rather than something involving Republicans at all, I'm hoping constituent contact can make even a marginal difference.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Fez said:

But I'm pissed off about Ilhan Omar's comments and even angrier about the Democratic officeholders who are defending them. Since its an inter-party issue rather than something involving Republicans at all, I'm hoping constituent contact can make even a marginal difference.

Sorry, I have to ask. Is this like real, actual antisemitism? Or is it, similar to what we have here in the UK, some bullshit cooked up by right wing hypocrites in order to demonize and divide the left, whilst delegitimizing any criticism of Israel's illegal and barbaric treatment of the Palestinians?

Edited by Spockydog

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7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Sorry, I have to ask. Is this like real, actual antisemitism, or is it, similar to what we have here in the UK, some nonsense cooked up by right wing hypocrites in order to demonize and divide the left? 

It's both. The right wing is being totally hypocritical and has said far worse, but I expect better of Democrats. Also, some of Omar's comments could be legitimate criticism, except for the fact that every time she speaks about it she ends up referencing at least one anti-Semitic trope. If it happens once, that's one thing, but there's too much of a pattern here. 

Here's a relatively even-handed Vox explainer on the whole saga: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/6/18251639/ilhan-omar-israel-anti-semitism-jews

I don't particularly care about a single member saying stupid stuff, but I do care about how the party as a whole has reacted to it. I'm especially angry about folks like Harris saying, without evidence, that criticism of Omar is putting her in danger. Even if someone supported Omar's statements, and didn't think they were anti-Semitic, I don't see how they could support that kind of attempted stifling of free speech.

The one plus to all this is that it is definitely giving me concrete preferences about the Democratic presidential contenders beyond just electability.

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Posted (edited)

It is definitely bullshit, the dems attacking her are shameless. It is stifling any criticism of Israel.

Edited by Morpheus

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Fez said:

 

I don't particularly care about a single member saying stupid stuff, but I do care about how the party as a whole has reacted to it. I'm especially angry about folks like Harris saying, without evidence, that criticism of Omar is putting her in danger. Even if someone supported Omar's statements, and didn't think they were anti-Semitic, I don't see how they could support that kind of attempted stifling of free speech.

Oh, the irony. So free speech is good, unless when used to query why the US continues to offer unfailing, uncritical support for Israeli Apartheid?

And yes, money plays a big part. Of course it does. Just as politicians (on both sides) take money from tobacco and oil and plastic, they take money from Israelis. Pointing this out is not antisemitic. It just isn't.

 

 

Edited by Spockydog

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5 minutes ago, Fez said:

I don't particularly care about a single member saying stupid stuff, but I do care about how the party as a whole has reacted to it. I'm especially angry about folks like Harris saying, without evidence, that criticism of Omar is putting her in danger. Even if someone supported Omar's statements, and didn't think they were anti-Semitic, I don't see how they could support that kind of attempted stifling of free speech.

I don't know this for a fact, but I feel 99.9% sure that Omar is receiving death threats.  Why is mentioning that beyond the pale?

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7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Oh, the irony. So free speech is good, unless when used to query why the US continues to offer unfailing, uncritical support for Israeli Apartheid?

And yes, money plays a big part. Of course it does. Just as politicians (on both sides) take money from tobacco and oil and plastic, they take money from Israelis. Pointing this out is not antisemitic. It just isn't.

 Free speech is good, Omar has the right to say whatever and everyone else has the right to respond however. I'm concerned about the Democratic response to it and that's my right.

Second, the money comments aren't the issue, I don't care about that one. I care about the comments about Jewish Americans have dual allegiances.

Which brings up point three, the comments that concern me and other progressive Jews are not the anti-Israel ones, its the anti-Jewish Americans ones.

4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I don't know this for a fact, but I feel 99.9% sure that Omar is receiving death threats.  Why is mentioning that beyond the pale?

Because everyone in Congress receives some amount of random death threats, sadly. If Omar is receiving an elevate amount, and they are explicitly linked to these comments, that's a different issue. But if that's the case, then prove it (not you, I mean folks like Harris). Otherwise, they're being no better than Trump, just making stuff up.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Fez said:

Here's a relatively even-handed Vox explainer on the whole saga: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/6/18251639/ilhan-omar-israel-anti-semitism-jews

What I got from that is basically what she said (about Israeli influence in US politics) is true, but we just don't like to talk about it.

 

Edited by Spockydog

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Fez said:

Which brings up point three, the comments that concern me and other progressive Jews are not the anti-Israel ones, its the anti-Jewish Americans ones.

Hit me with some quotes. 

And also, are you saying that there is no such thing as a Jewish-American who shows more allegiance to Israel? Because I'm sure there are plenty of those. Or is it, like Israeli money in US politics, we're just not allowed to talk about it?

I mean, I'm an Anglo-Scot. I fucking love England, I have lived here for forty years. But I still support Scotland in the footie. And in the post-Brexit wars of independence, I'll be first in line for a kilt and a tube of blue woad.

 

Edited by Spockydog

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4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I don't know this for a fact, but I feel 99.9% sure that Omar is receiving death threats.  Why is mentioning that beyond the pale?

We certainly know that the West Virginia GOP was shamelessly and openly trying to equate/link her with 9/11 terrorism in the minds of their voters, and it’s not like a certain segment of the country needs much impetus to want to harm a dark skinned refugee wearing a hijab... (also worth noting that a lot of this “outrage” is being ginned up by Republican House leader Kevin McCarthy, who spent the lead up to the 2018 election accusing prominent Jews of buying the election for Democrats.)

I don’t have time to look over the Vox article right now, but as I understand it, her most recent comment, the one that was supposedly a “vile anti-Semitic slur” and worthy of being censured and reprimanded for was saying something along the lines of “it’s wrong to have a greater loyalty to a foreign power than the best interests of the United States” and as far as I’ve heard she didn’t even name names.

I mean, it’s not a vile anti-Semitic slur when we say that about Trump and Russia, so what am I missing? I’m genuinely curious.

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7 minutes ago, Fez said:

Because everyone in Congress receives some amount of random death threats, sadly. If Omar is receiving an elevate amount, and they are explicitly linked to these comments, that's a different issue. But if that's the case, then prove it (not you, I mean folks like Harris). Otherwise, they're being no better than Trump, just making stuff up.

I would be really surprised if Omar is not receiving an elevated amount of death threats, and they are inevitably going to be linked to these comments since they have dramatically increased her profile in Congress.  She is a Muslim woman who speaks her mind.  There is a large subset of the country that hate all three of those things.  I think that the GOP's comparing Omar to 9/11 terrorists is more than enough for Harris to say what she did. 

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9 hours ago, DMC said:

Meh, if it wasn't Gingrich it would have been someone else.  Lee Atwater just died young.  Making Billy Joel a liar.  Man, honestly didn't mean to reference him consecutively.

The lolz are real.

But hey, we can at least thank Atwater for one thing. He was the inspiration for big head mode on NBA Jam.  

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11 minutes ago, Paladin of Ice said:

I don’t have time to look over the Vox article right now, but as I understand it, her most recent comment, the one that was supposedly a “vile anti-Semitic slur” and worthy of being censured and reprimanded for was saying something along the lines of “it’s wrong to have a greater loyalty to a foreign power than the best interests of the United States” and as far as I’ve heard she didn’t even name names.

I mean, it’s not a vile anti-Semitic slur when we say that about Trump and Russia, so what am I missing? I’m genuinely curious.

I took her meaning to be broadly about the sacrosanct support of Israel in the US broadly -- to incorporate (truly, probably the focus) anti-BDS legislation in (primarily to start) Red states as well as the right-wing evangelical support. I did NOT interpret it as primarily directed at American Jews. Not sure whether that is the correct read or my bias in reading her comments.

Also, I agree with Tywin -- @DMC h/t for the "Making Billy Joel a liar" line. Bravo.

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Here's the thing that bothers me the most, and, again, it's not even directly about Omar. If I were any other minority and said I was feeling threatened by something a politician or public figure said, most folks on the left would be falling over to defend me. Even if people thought I was making too much of the issue, there'd still be tons of talk about the difficulties minorities face and how we need to be more sensitive to their perspective; which is all true. However, because I'm Jewish, all I hear is how we need to listen to what the politician/public figure said, or even that they are right, and my concerns are dismissed out of hand as being a pro-Israeli reactionary. There is no attempt to understand why I feel threatened and certainly no defense of me; except from the right wing, are fucking hypocritical insane nonsense people.

So my problem isn't really with Omar, it's with the large group of the left that just immediately took her side and abandoned me. It's especially galling because I even agree with her underlying sentiments about Israel. I think their government is terrible and there is no excusing basically anything they've done since 2005. Jews are always the first group that are abandoned, and they always have been. Seems that some things never change.

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1 hour ago, Fez said:

Well, I contacted my representative and senators for the first time in a while. I generally don't do that  because I think it usually doesn't matter, they usually don't have any power over the issue, and I'm usually in agreement with them on the issues anyway.

But I'm pissed off about Ilhan Omar's comments and even angrier about the Democratic officeholders who are defending them. Since its an inter-party issue rather than something involving Republicans at all, I'm hoping constituent contact can make even a marginal difference.

1. Contacting your representatives usually just means talking to an intern, so no, it doesn’t do anything unless there is a high volume of other constituents contacting them about the same issue.

2. Omar is my MoC, I’m Jewish, and don’t really have any issue with what she’s said (and I did not support her in the primary). Overall, she’s not wrong. Israel seriously needs to be called out for their behavior and the U.S. needs to stop protecting them when they’re wrong.

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