Could the Night King have made it south of the wall without a dragon?

[ktm5124]

I love the TV series — I'm a huge fan. But one small issue I have with the show is that the Night King gets south of the wall by using a dragon to tear it down. Does that mean that Jon Snow inadvertently brought the White Walkers south of the wall by giving them a dragon? How would the Night King have gotten south of the wall without a dragon, considering that it's magical — it has spells woven by the Children of the Forest, if I am correct — and has kept them out all these years? The Night King was unable to attack Lord Bloodraven, the Three Eyed Raven, because of a similar magic woven around the weirwood tree where he was residing. Was there ever really a threat of the White Walkers getting south of the wall, in the first place, provided no one did anything stupid (like give them a dragon)? Is it Jon's fault that the White Walkers crossed the wall, as he led the expedition which resulted in the Night King getting a dragon?

(I'm not willing to blame Dany here because I like her too much and it was not her idea to begin with!)

I'm just really curious if the Night King could have had other means of getting south of the wall, or if getting a dragon was precisely what he needed to move south. If it's the latter, then that's a bit sad, since it would mean that Jon Snow's actions put the north in grave peril and that he's only saving the north from the danger he brought on himself... It would also mean that all his warnings about the Night King were a bit naive since a Night King who has no means of getting south of the wall isn't as dangerous as Jon makes him out to be. When I think along these lines, I do remember the words of Benjen Stark (from the show). Benjen says (I paraphrase), "The Night King will make it to the world of men, one way or another". I wonder what his other ways may have been.

[Mystical]

8 hours ago, ktm5124 said:

How would the Night King have gotten south of the wall without a dragon, considering that it's magical — it has spells woven by the Children of the Forest, if I am correct — and has kept them out all these years?

This is a problem in both the show and book and it makes it unbelievable in a way that it took the army of the dead this long to get south again. In the books we might be given a reason as to why the Others didn't do anything since the last time they were fought. But in the show there probably won't be an explanation.

But the answer to how the NK and his army get south of the wall without a dragon is simple. Frozen water. The continent is surrounded on both sides by oceans/seas, and if I remember those stretch as far as north of the Wall. As far as we know, there are no magical barriers inside the oceans that could stop the Others. So when a natural winter comes, the water near the shores will freeze where it isn't too deep. The Others also bring even more cold with them. So all they would have to do is wait for winter and stay near the shores until the water is frozen enough for them to cross safely. So they simply walk around the wall by using the frozen seas.

8 hours ago, ktm5124 said:

Does that mean that Jon Snow inadvertently brought the White Walkers south of the wall by giving them a dragon?

Yep. The Others could have used the 'frozen water' option which would have taken time. It would have given everyone time to prepare. Instead the idiot gang made it so that time is out. And we can be sure thousands will die thanks to them. All of this could have been avoided if the writers had remembered that Bran is marked, that the mark lifts the Children's protective magic. That by crossing south of the wall, the magic in the wall would have been negated. The wall wouldn't fall since it's still build out of materials but it would make it possible for the dead to climb it and climb over it. Yes it still has the unfortunate result of making it Bran's fault (since he knew he was marked and knew what would happen) but Bran's entire story since S1 so far has been to get everyone killed.

But at least it would be only one individuals fault. Instead we have a vast group of people, from the one who thought up the plan (Tyrion) down to the grunts (BwB) who are completely moronic. So it's not just Jon's fault but if he had gotten on the dragon instead of swinging his penis around wanting to impress a girl, the dragons might have all escaped.

9 hours ago, ktm5124 said:

(I'm not willing to blame Dany here because I like her too much and it was not her idea to begin with!)

She is still the Queen. Nothing happens without her say so. She gave the green light, so she is just as culpable as everyone else involved. And who in their right mind would sign off on letting the King of a kingdom go on this mission. If Jon dies, the entire North will blame her and rightly so since Jon was her prisoner. And since it's all done for Cersei, it makes it even dumber. All Dany had to do all Season was fly her dragons up to the Red Keep in front of Cersei's window and dracarys. Those dragons are as well trained by now as drones. And Cersei has no power, so doing this to make her stand down was just the icing on the idiot cake. Just ignore her. Also if Dany hadn't been arrogantly insisting on all this knee bending nonsense, she could have taken some time out, hopped on a dragon and flown North to see if all this fuss about the Others is truth or nonsense. She was the only one that needed convincing since she has the might and not Cersei.

[Bradam]

The wights already went under water and hooked the chains to the dead dragon. What's to stop them from just wading out in the water past the wall and walking around it under water.?

[Kajjo]

I believe this issue is not really that important. 

Season 1, opening scenes:  Winter is coming. For a long time no white walkers were seen, now they returned.  We learn that the whole process has already started. White walkers being active once again, the Night King assembling his army. This is not an ongoing process since thousand years, this is something that started recently. Winter is coming.

The is magic woven into the wall to protect it. How perfect this magic is, we don't know. Maybe it just helps. The Night's Watch is necessary and has been so ever since. 

We have to consider the issue of "there has always to be a Stark in Winterfell". Now for a very long time, there was no Stark in Winterfell. Maybe the magic of the wall was connected with the magic in Winterfell, connected with the Stark family and whatever is in the crypts -- there were so many hints to the crypts, from the opening episode until the final teaser and trailer for season 8. There must be something important.

 

[Yet another Arya !]

On 3/6/2019 at 2:51 AM, ktm5124 said:

(I'm not willing to blame Dany here because I like her too much and it was not her idea to begin with!)

I must admit I was a little bit disappointed when I saw the huge failure of the Dany-led close air support mission...I'm sure it won't happen in the novel: Dany is much more clever than that (although stubborn and somewhat cocky), she will work out a solution to spare his dragon. 

In the novels, we hear about Joramund Horn, capable to awake the giants and to bring down the Wall -however I don't remember where it is clearly stated, so it's maybe my imagination? Maybe in the next books there will be no easy twist plot with a wight dragon, but the Others will get the Horn back and use it. (I'm just done with A Clash of Kings so I don't know what are the further developments about the Horn).

Otherwise at this stage we have three others possibilities appart from the dragon one:

- The frozen water

- Climbing the Wall (if Bran inadvertently removed the spell as supposed by Mystical, and/or because there was no Stark at Winterfel -another kind of spell- as supposed by Kajjo)

- Swimming (Bradam's hypothesis. We saw that in the serie but I believed they could not in the books...)

And maybe Viserion would have not be able to destroy the wall without the spells removal?

[Error-504]

On 3/5/2019 at 8:51 PM, ktm5124 said:

I love the TV series — I'm a huge fan. But one small issue I have with the show is that the Night King gets south of the wall by using a dragon to tear it down. Does that mean that Jon Snow inadvertently brought the White Walkers south of the wall by giving them a dragon? How would the Night King have gotten south of the wall without a dragon, considering that it's magical — it has spells woven by the Children of the Forest, if I am correct — and has kept them out all these years? The Night King was unable to attack Lord Bloodraven, the Three Eyed Raven, because of a similar magic woven around the weirwood tree where he was residing. Was there ever really a threat of the White Walkers getting south of the wall, in the first place, provided no one did anything stupid (like give them a dragon)? Is it Jon's fault that the White Walkers crossed the wall, as he led the expedition which resulted in the Night King getting a dragon?

(I'm not willing to blame Dany here because I like her too much and it was not her idea to begin with!)

I'm just really curious if the Night King could have had other means of getting south of the wall, or if getting a dragon was precisely what he needed to move south. If it's the latter, then that's a bit sad, since it would mean that Jon Snow's actions put the north in grave peril and that he's only saving the north from the danger he brought on himself... It would also mean that all his warnings about the Night King were a bit naive since a Night King who has no means of getting south of the wall isn't as dangerous as Jon makes him out to be. When I think along these lines, I do remember the words of Benjen Stark (from the show). Benjen says (I paraphrase), "The Night King will make it to the world of men, one way or another". I wonder what his other ways may have been.

A bunch of misconceptions here and follow up posts. First of all, the so called "magic" of the wall didn't keep even a single wight out of Castle black now did it? 

So, lets dispel with the Myth that they could not penetrate or cross the wall, until Bran this or Dragon that. And then there is this:

If Wights can jump down a 200 foot cliff, re-animate and attack, I am sure they can do the same thing in reverse. Or just make a wight bridge in the shallows around the wall at the beach. Long story short, the NK always had any number of ways to breach the wall. did the Dragon make it easier? Sure, but more on that later. 

Now, as for the Bran made it so the NK could breach the Blood Ravens cave, more misinterpretation and not understanding what really happened. Take a look:

The NK can clearly pass through the barriers at the Blood Ravens cave. What the BR's magic had done for so many years is to hide it's location. When Bran got branded, the NK essentially put a GPS tracking device on Bran, and thus was able to Find the cave, that is all. So from here on out, the NK knows where Bran is, nothing more. 

Long story short, the NK could always get pass the Wall, otherwise it makes no sense for him to have been building an army, unless we are to assume that he just "knew" a dragon would fall in his lap. 

 

As to the reason for the NK to suddenly re-appear and assemble his forces, I don't think it has anything to do with any of the doings of men, rather more of a cyclic event, much like how Haleys comet appears every 75 years, albeit on a much longer time frame. 

 

[Error-504]

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But at least it would be only one individuals fault. Instead we have a vast group of people, from the one who thought up the plan (Tyrion) down to the grunts (BwB) who are completely moronic. So it's not just Jon's fault but if he had gotten on the dragon instead of swinging his penis around wanting to impress a girl, the dragons might have all escaped.

Which leaves out the fact they were driven to do exactly what they did. Remember the hounds vision in the flames? 

Roh roh shaggy, you forgot about that one didn't you? We now know the white expedition was necessary. Despite what you have been trying to pass off as stupidity, for whatever reason, the Lord of Light wants then to go there. The other comment about Jon and his genitalia tells us a lot about your predisposition to actually understand what you are watching. 

 

 

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If Jon dies, the entire North will blame her and rightly so since Jon was her prisoner

Says who? Jon was never a prisoner on Dragonstone. He was free to roam the island at his will. He never asked to leave. If he did, it's anyones guess what Dany might have said or done. Yes it is quite obvious Dany didn't want him to leave, not yet, but calling him a prisoner is a bit much. Not to mention he had only been there a day or two, maybe three, and hadn't even thought to ask about the dragon glass yet. 

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And since it's all done for Cersei, it makes it even dumber. All Dany had to do all Season was fly her dragons up to the Red Keep in front of Cersei's window and dracarys. Those dragons are as well trained by now as drones. And Cersei has no power, so doing this to make her stand down was just the icing on the idiot cake. Just ignore her.

Except killing 100's of thousands of innocents was something they were trying to avoid, or did you miss that part? It's kind of hard to convince people that you want them to join you to fight for the living, after you have just slaughtered 1/2 the city. And we have already witnessed that the Dragons are far from invincible, or did you miss that part as well?

A little reminder

Took Bronn Two shots with one scorpion, imagine attacking Kl when they have now built 20-40 of them and have them mounted all over the city? But nobody is debating as to whether or not at this point in time Dany could take KL's, the question is at what cost? They are operating under the assumption they need their help as well to defeat the NK (at least Jon), and Dany has a legitimate concern as to what might happen to those that have helped her up to this point if she were to suddenly leave. And yes, there has to be a great many Westeros locals that have been aiding her to keep her army fed, clothed, etc etc. Left unabated Cersei would search them out and have them all tortured and killed. 

 

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 Also if Dany hadn't been arrogantly insisting on all this knee bending nonsense, she could have taken some time out, hopped on a dragon and flown North to see if all this fuss about the Others is truth or nonsense

Dany had already been convinced of the NK's existence, that happened in the caves at dragonstone. She  also eventually agrees to help him without Jon bending the knee. Jon only bent the knee after he witnessed first hand Dany's sacrifice to help his cause, after Tormund pointed out Mance  Raiders folly due to his pride. 

 

Pay careful attention to what Jon says about the first men and the CoF. They fought together, despite their differences, despite their suspicions, together. This is called foreshadowing. Jon is trying to accomplish the same thing, because he believes that is what he has to do. I believe it also ties back to the "dragon must have three heads" prophecy. And Dany is no more to blame than Jon about bending the knee, Jon is after all asking for quite a bit here, why shouldn't Dany ask for his support in return? 

 

It is quite clear, at this point in time, that if a truce can be negotiated with Cersei, that Dany will help Jon without bending the knee. Pay careful attention to Tyrion stressing Jamie's importance. More foreshadowing. 

 

" We don't want to go beyond the wall, We have to". More foreshadowing. Of course, everyone wants to point out that the expedition was a tragic failure, Dany lost a dragon, Cersei will/has betrayed them, etc. They forget that it did in fact get Jamie to leave Cersei. Don't underestimate the importance of that. 

We also see it again in the Trailer to season 8. There is  reason for this, Jamie is a key component in the war to come, and there is no way that he would have left Cersei if not for the wight expedition. so yeah, it didn't go completely as planned, but was it a failure? No. 

[Bradam]

The way the scene was shown Jon had plenty of time to get on Drogon and escape, yet for some weird reason he just runs off attacking random wights and ends up underwater.  None of that made any sense. Not to mention fully dressed with some armour on he would have sank like a rock and/or froze to death before he hit bottom.

[Error-504]

45 minutes ago, Bradam said:

The way the scene was shown Jon had plenty of time to get on Drogon and escape, yet for some weird reason he just runs off attacking random wights and ends up underwater.  None of that made any sense.

Start at 2:20

 

The writers of the show disagree with you. It was necessary for Jon to do what he did to insure the others made it out safely. Arguing anything else is silly, and not the what the sequence was trying to show you. So no, Jon did not have plenty of time. The only thing up for argument is how well the scene depicted what the writers were trying to convey. It made perfect sense to anyone watching while not trying to go through it with a fine toothed comb looking for possible flaws. 

 

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 Not to mention fully dressed with some armour on he would have sank like a rock and/or froze to death before he hit bottom.

Then you probably shouldn't have mentioned it. For one, Jon didn't have any armor on, only furs. But in a show with zombies and dragons, a guy that was brought back from the dead, magic, warging, and everything else, you want to argue the finer points of hypothermia? Seriously? However, seeing how you brought it up, why is it ok to accept that Dany cannot be burned (immune to fire-Targ blood) but you cannot accept Jon cannot freeze to death, or at least has a great deal more tolerance to the cold (Stark blood)? You know, a Song of Ice and Fire? And Jon did get a bit of body heat from the horse he was laying on on the ride back. 

[Bradam]

While their stated intentions were to show Jon as the guy who jumps on the grenade to save the platoon they didn't film it that way.  Jon had all the time in the world to get on Drogon, worst case scenario maybe one wight grabs his leg? 

 

We don't know if Jon had on any armour or not but assuming he didn't he's still not swimming in those furs, plus whatever boots he has on.

You are right in that debating physics in a magical fantasy realm is pointless, but it is fun imo. From the stories own canon book Dany wasn't immune to fire, it was the blood magic mixing with the dragon eggs opening magic that protected her.  The show kind of got lazy and just said targs are immune to fire.  With Jon the show just presents us with "fully dressed dude fell in freezing water, but got out a-ok" , no mention of magic or cold immunity or anything. 

[Error-504]

3 hours ago, Bradam said:

While their stated intentions were to show Jon as the guy who jumps on the grenade to save the platoon they didn't film it that way.  Jon had all the time in the world to get on Drogon, worst case scenario maybe one wight grabs his leg? 

 

We don't know if Jon had on any armour or not but assuming he didn't he's still not swimming in those furs, plus whatever boots he has on.

You are right in that debating physics in a magical fantasy realm is pointless, but it is fun imo. From the stories own canon book Dany wasn't immune to fire, it was the blood magic mixing with the dragon eggs opening magic that protected her.  The show kind of got lazy and just said targs are immune to fire.  With Jon the show just presents us with "fully dressed dude fell in freezing water, but got out a-ok" , no mention of magic or cold immunity or anything. 

I disagree, and we will leave it at that. What I saw is what the producers intended me to see, what you think you saw is what you wanted to see in order to make your debate. The first mens tolerance of cold is well documented, and not every minute detail needs to be explained beforehand just because you want it to be so. Your grasping at flies here. The point is, does a reasonable explanation exist? Yes!  And I have given you one. Now, I am not going to emphatically defend every last scene on the show as being reasonable, for instance, Gendry running back to the wall, then the NW sending a raven to Dany, and her magically appearing just in time, now, if you want to criticize something as unbelievable, I cannot defend that...... 

[Angel Eyes]

I think the plan was to freeze the sea so they could go around it. The White Walkers have been around for 8000 years, they can wait months more.

[BlackLightning]

Yes, there are several other ways that the Others could have made it south of the Wall. But the showrunners didn't want to do that.

On 3/6/2019 at 9:17 AM, Bradam said:

The wights already went under water and hooked the chains to the dead dragon. What's to stop them from just wading out in the water past the wall and walking around it under water.?

LOL

That's called a plot hole.

[RYShh]

The Night King had 4 options other than using a wight dragon, not just one; 2 out of 4 is a low chance, the other 2 are almost guaranteed ones.

The low;

1-) The Horn Of Joramun, Sam finds it in the Fist of the First men, they could use that to destroy the Wall.

2-) They can climb over it by using chains and then a wight ramp over the chains.

Guaranteed;

3-) Walk around it on the frozen seas near Eastwatch. The Hound has seen this vision. And we know the dead can march on a frozen water.

4-) By using the mark that Night King put on Bran, the Night King could remove the spell at the Wall. And he has done before (S06E05), as he removed the spell at the cave of the 3 eyed raven. 

[Nowy Tends]

On 3/9/2019 at 9:02 PM, Error-504 said:

 The first mens tolerance of cold is well documented, 

"tolerance of cold" means "surviving a prolonged bath in freezing water, covered with heavy furs, leather clothing, large boots, etc."? 

If you had ever sailed in cold water (let say North Atlantic in winter) you'd know better. Life expectancy in icy water is a few minutes, if you are strong enough to withstand 1/ the initial shock and 2/ the lack of prompt treatment for hypothermia.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

I might have missed something or got my wires crossed but wasn't the reason for the White Walkers not attacking the south due to kind of peace offering with Craster offering up his children ?

Then when he was killed... things went south quickly ?

As for needing the dragon... they could have easily built a crossing round the side of the wall im sure... they went into the water to get the dragon on the chain im sure they could have found a way round the wall.

[Darryk]

In my view, this was just another example of lazy writing, that I defended at the time because I thought they'd explain it, but now realize was exactly as stupid as it appeared on face value.

Before the end of season 7, the assumption was that the White Walkers had returned after thousands of years because they either knew of a way to get past the wall, or knew something was going to happen that would allow them to get past the wall (ie. one of the theories was that this particular winter was going to be so long and fierce, it would freeze the ocean and allow them to walk around the Wall).

But as it turns out, they had no plan for getting past the Wall. They would have remained stuck behind the Wall if they hadn't managed to kill and possess a dragon. They apparently just got lucky.

So Jon ends up looking like an idiot rather than a hero for trying to unite everyone against the coming threat, cause it turns out it wouldn't have been a threat if he'd just left it alone. The show gives us no indication they would have gotten past the Wall without the dragon. Any theories people coming up for how they might have done that is just doing the work the writers couldn't be bothered to do themselves.

I excused it at the time because I thought the White Walkers would turn out to be just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself; that the real thing that needed to be defeated was whatever was causing the Long Winters; that the Wall was just a band aid rather than a real fix, and bringing it down was ultimately a good thing because it would force everyone to figure out what the real cause of the Long Winters was and fix it.

Kind of like in Wheel of Time, where sealing the Dark One was just a temporary solution that made things worse in a lot of ways, and now it was getting free, it would force everyone to figure out how to destroy it once and for all.

But it turns out that, as per usual, I was giving the writing too much credit. It was exactly what it appeared to be on face value, a lazy and contrived way to get the White Walkers past the wall so they could get the series over with. 

 

[Darryk]

On 7/25/2019 at 4:59 AM, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I might have missed something or got my wires crossed but wasn't the reason for the White Walkers not attacking the south due to kind of peace offering with Craster offering up his children ?

Then when he was killed... things went south quickly ?

As for needing the dragon... they could have easily built a crossing round the side of the wall im sure... they went into the water to get the dragon on the chain im sure they could have found a way round the wall.

This is a theory, but there's really nothing in the series to back it up. The White Walkers had started preparing for an invasion long before Craster was killed; that's why Mance was trying to unite the Freefolk to begin with.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Darryk said:

In my view, this was just another example of lazy writing, that I defended at the time because I thought they'd explain it, but now realize was exactly as stupid as it appeared on face value.

Before the end of season 7, the assumption was that the White Walkers had returned after thousands of years because they either knew of a way to get past the wall, or knew something was going to happen that would allow them to get past the wall (ie. one of the theories was that this particular winter was going to be so long and fierce, it would freeze the ocean and allow them to walk around the Wall).

But as it turns out, they had no plan for getting past the Wall. They would have remained stuck behind the Wall if they hadn't managed to kill and possess a dragon. They apparently just got lucky.

So Jon ends up looking like an idiot rather than a hero for trying to unite everyone against the coming threat, cause it turns out it wouldn't have been a threat if he'd just left it alone. The show gives us no indication they would have gotten past the Wall without the dragon. Any theories people coming up for how they might have done that is just doing the work the writers couldn't be bothered to do themselves.

I excused it at the time because I thought the White Walkers would turn out to be just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself; that the real thing that needed to be defeated was whatever was causing the Long Winters; that the Wall was just a band aid rather than a real fix, and bringing it down was ultimately a good thing because it would force everyone to figure out what the real cause of the Long Winters was and fix it.

Kind of like in Wheel of Time, where sealing the Dark One was just a temporary solution that made things worse in a lot of ways, and now it was getting free, it would force everyone to figure out how to destroy it once and for all.

But it turns out that, as per usual, I was giving the writing too much credit. It was exactly what it appeared to be on face value, a lazy and contrived way to get the White Walkers past the wall so they could get the series over with. 

 

I think the Night King, being the cryomancer he is, was planning to freeze the sea and have his forces cross that way. So what if it takes awhile, the Night King has waited 8,000 years, he can wait a couple more years. Same thing with the Beyond the Wall; Jon and his crew could have sat in the middle of that lake for days; the wights and White Walkers can afford to wait. And they can go underwater, as evidenced when the wights retrieved Viserion.

[Lord Stannis-The True King]

Great question. I believe so. The Night King was marching on the wall without knowing a dragon would be available. I honestly believe Bran broke the Magical Wards on the wall when he passed through with the mark (just like at the Three Eyed Raven's lair). If true the dead army would only have needed to break down the gates and entrances the Night's Watch use. It would take a bit longer that's all.