Football: Bernaburned

[polishgenius]

 

[Rorshach]

I can't for the life of me understand people saying his arms weren't in a natural position. 

Where are your arms when you jump? Straight down the side of your body they ain't, unless you are completely weird.

Still, doesn't really matter to me - and I'll readily agree the call against Otamendi was worse - I'd say that call was a howler worse than Buffon.

[lacuna]

38 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Where are your arms when you jump? Straight down the side of your body they ain't, unless you are completely weird. supposed to be a professional footballer.

You can't jump in and block a shot turned sideways with your arms sticking out. Inadvertent, perhaps, but so are most late tackles, and all own goals. He has only himself to blame for turning like that.

[Rorshach]

2 minutes ago, lacuna said:

You can't jump in and block a shot turned sideways with your arms sticking out. Inadvertent, perhaps, but so are most late tackles, and almost all own goals. He has only himself to blame for turning like that.

He didn't have to jump like that. 

However, as long as intention and "natural position" are used as arguments, it wasn't a penalty. Because his arm most definetely was in a natural position.

[lacuna]

1 minute ago, Rorshach said:

He didn't have to jump like that. 

However, as long as intention and "natural position" are used as arguments, it wasn't a penalty. Because his arm most definetely was in a natural position.

They were in a natural shot-blocking position, I'll give you that. 

[Rorshach]

1 minute ago, lacuna said:

They were in a natural shot-blocking position, I'll give you that. 

I would dearly like a video of you jumping

[lacuna]

Just now, Rorshach said:

I would dearly like a video of you jumping

When I'm trying to block a shot, I jump facing the shot, one hand cupping my delicates, the other behind my back. You don't need to set a world record for height, so you don't need to swing your arms.

[Rorshach]

8 minutes ago, lacuna said:

When I'm trying to block a shot, I jump facing the shot, one hand cupping my delicates, the other behind my back. You don't need to set a world record for height, so you don't need to swing your arms.

Good for you.

I guess that it has become a reflex, then? Something you had to train to master? Because I'll be completely darned if you did that naturally.

The rules, however, states that "intention" is key. I cannot for the life of me see any intention, unnatural position or anything like that yesterday. If you disagree, fine, but I'll maintain then that your use of hands are unnatural. 

[lacuna]

15 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Good for you.

I guess that it has become a reflex, then? Something you had to train to master? Because I'll be completely darned if you did that naturally.

The rules, however, states that "intention" is key. I cannot for the life of me see any intention, unnatural position or anything like that yesterday. If you disagree, fine, but I'll maintain then that your use of hands are unnatural. 

That's right, and never once have I been paid to play either. (If you saw me play, you'd see why.)

I just don't think there's anything inadvertent or unintentional with having your arms out like that when your aim is to jump in front of a shot. You have an idea of where the ball is going to go, so try to avoid having your arms there. Don't use them to block, which is what he essentially did.

[Mark Antony]

Love seeing PSG fail in CL. 

[Rorshach]

19 minutes ago, lacuna said:

That's right, and never once have I been paid to play either. (If you saw me play, you'd see why.)

I just don't think there's anything inadvertent or unintentional with having your arms out like that when your aim is to jump in front of a shot. You have an idea of where the ball is going to go, so try to avoid having your arms there. Don't use them to block, which is what he essentially did.

I believe we'll never come to an agreement. This will be a first in internet history.

I understand your bolded point, but as I see it, when you jump to block, you should have your arms in a natural position - and I interpret that as "where they would be all else being equal." And that's where his hands were. Resultwise yesterday, I couldn't care less, so my interest is in how handball is going to be interpreted going forward. I do not like the precedent set by this call, and even less the precedent set by the Otamendi call (which I would argue was against the rules as stated, and a major refereeing blunder).

My career on the field took me to the lofty heights of left back in the Norwegian 6th division, so clearly I was only a good coach away from being world famous...

[Rorshach]

Oh, just to mention: Ramos and Neymar crashing out is generally always worth watching.

[lacuna]

7 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

I believe we'll never come to an agreement. This will be a first in internet history.

 

We're just going to have to agree (that I'm right and you're wrong) to disagree.

 

7 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Oh, just to mention: Ramos and Neymar crashing out is generally always worth watching.

Skål for den!

[BigFatCoward]

18 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Oh, just to mention: Ramos and Neymar crashing out is generally always worth watching.

Neymar should definitely be a RM player. He would fit in perfectly. 

[Rorshach]

Just saw this, btw..

 

 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Rorshach said:

I believe we'll never come to an agreement. This will be a first in internet history.

I understand your bolded point, but as I see it, when you jump to block, you should have your arms in a natural position - and I interpret that as "where they would be all else being equal." And that's where his hands were. Resultwise yesterday, I couldn't care less, so my interest is in how handball is going to be interpreted going forward. I do not like the precedent set by this call, and even less the precedent set by the Otamendi call (which I would argue was against the rules as stated, and a major refereeing blunder).

My career on the field took me to the lofty heights of left back in the Norwegian 6th division, so clearly I was only a good coach away from being world famous...

That's.... not how refereeing works. Refs don't refer to precedent. They're not lawyers.

Also, in regard to the call, the Laws actually say:

Quote

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence

(Highlights mine.) There's nothing about the position being 'natural' or 'unnatural' - merely a note that the ref can consider the position of the hand, and use that to declare that there was no offence. This is usually understood as a way to excuse situations such as players trying to protect their face, putting out an arm to break their fall, etc. It's certainly within the ref's rights to award a penalty because a player's arms are extended away from the body mid-jump: there's plenty of precedent there, if it's precedent you're looking for. 

[Consigliere]

I think Tuchel was correct in his assessment of the penalty post match. It was a 50/50 call. 

[Rorshach]

26 minutes ago, mormont said:

That's.... not how refereeing works. Refs don't refer to precedent. They're not lawyers.

Also, in regard to the call, the Laws actually say:

(Highlights mine.) There's nothing about the position being 'natural' or 'unnatural' - merely a note that the ref can consider the position of the hand, and use that to declare that there was no offence. This is usually understood as a way to excuse situations such as players trying to protect their face, putting out an arm to break their fall, etc. It's certainly within the ref's rights to award a penalty because a player's arms are extended away from the body mid-jump: there's plenty of precedent there, if it's precedent you're looking for. 

Bad choice of words. Sorry about that.

I guess it would better for me to state that the Otamendi incident shows the ref not understanding the rules as stated. I cannot see how he can reasonably call that an infringmenet of the rules, after seeing it on VAR. There's no deliberate act (other than to try to move the hand away), the distance wasn't great and the speed of the ball left Otamendi with no chance.

Point is, VAR, if used like that, is useless. 

[Mme Erzulie]

In this heated debate between Rorschach and Lacuna, I'll have to side with my compatriot.

[Consigliere]

43 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Bad choice of words. Sorry about that.

I guess it would better for me to state that the Otamendi incident shows the ref not understanding the rules as stated. I cannot see how he can reasonably call that an infringmenet of the rules, after seeing it on VAR. There's no deliberate act (other than to try to move the hand away), the distance wasn't great and the speed of the ball left Otamendi with no chance.

Point is, VAR, if used like that, is useless. 

And not just the Otamendi incident. The penalty given (after review) against Sandro on the weekend in the Napoli/Juve game was even worse than that. It's like "deliberate" and "proximity" have totally gone out the window. The "deliberate" part especially doesn't seem like it ever carried much weight. Afterall, how many handball penalty incidents have involved a deliberate act on the part of the player? I'd reckon that the vast majority is accidental yet penalties are regularly awarded anyway. Tuchel was right: it was a 50/50 call rather that 100% not a penalty.