mormont Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 The thing about 'deliberate' is that it's a very bad but absolutely necessary thing to include in the law. It's absolutely necessary because even setting aside concerns about fairness, nobody wants to watch attacking players kicking the ball at defender's arms any time they get in the box. But it's also very bad, because it requires the referee to make suppositions about a player's intentions, which is always going to be difficult and can never produce a 'consistent' result. (Particularly as we can suppose that any player committing handball is going to actively try to hide his intentions from the referee, if he can.) The natural consequence is that referees have to lean on elements that can support their suppositions, such as the position of the arm. But while those help, they don't solve the problem. If you rely on them too much, you dilute the 'deliberate' element. If you don't, you get criticised for making bad calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 I think it could be interpreted as a penalty under the rules, although it’s harsh. But I agree with lacuna (or was it Rorshach) that it requires defenders jump to block in a weird way, which per the rules they shouldn’t have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorshach Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, john said: I think it could be interpreted as a penalty under the rules, although it’s harsh. But I agree with lacuna (or was it Rorshach) that it requires defenders jump to block in a weird way, which per the rules they shouldn’t have to. You should do as Mme Erzulie and agree with us both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disturber of Peace Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Just to do the important recap of the night: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/312731883937202176/553141706703503390/giphy_5.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 1 hour ago, mormont said: The thing about 'deliberate' is that it's a very bad but absolutely necessary thing to include in the law. It's absolutely necessary because even setting aside concerns about fairness, nobody wants to watch attacking players kicking the ball at defender's arms any time they get in the box. But it's also very bad, because it requires the referee to make suppositions about a player's intentions, which is always going to be difficult and can never produce a 'consistent' result. (Particularly as we can suppose that any player committing handball is going to actively try to hide his intentions from the referee, if he can.) The natural consequence is that referees have to lean on elements that can support their suppositions, such as the position of the arm. But while those help, they don't solve the problem. If you rely on them too much, you dilute the 'deliberate' element. If you don't, you get criticised for making bad calls. There are changes coming to the handball laws from next season. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/47429316 Specifically this portion is interesting: Quote Another change to the laws of the game means that if the player's arms extend beyond a "natural silhouette", handball will be given, even if it is perceived as accidental. Elleray says this is an effort to put an end to defenders placing their arms behind their backs in fear of giving away a free-kick. "We've changed it to say the body has a certain silhouette," said Elleray. "If the arms are extended beyond that silhouette then the body is being made unnaturally bigger, with the purpose of it being a bigger barrier to the opponent or the ball. "Players should be allowed to have their arms by their side because it's their natural silhouette." Under this new rule, the Kimpembe incident would be a stonewall penalty whereas the Otamendi one would/should not be seen as a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mme Erzulie Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 cue discussions about definition of "natural silhouette" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Elleray kind of defines that already - "Players should be allowed to have their arms by their side because it's their natural silhouette." The issue is that definition is all well and good for standing but arms down at your sides isn't a "natural silhouette" when jumping. Then we also have the bit about extended arms making the body unnaturally bigger. Defenders are going to have to be very careful from next season when jumping to block a cross or shot. Intent is no longer a factor either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Imagine if that was in any actual law, “the suspect had his arm extended beyond a natural silhouette ...” Seems like there’d be a lot more on pitch disputes in that case. It’s one thing for the ref to say it was deliberate in his opinion, it’s another to say the player had his arm in an unnatural position in his opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, john said: It’s one thing for the ref to say it was deliberate in his opinion, it’s another to say the player had his arm in an unnatural position in his opinion. Is it, though? I mean, as things stand the ref is frequently, in effect, saying it was deliberate in his opinion because the player had his arm in an unnatural position in his opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, mormont said: I mean, as things stand the ref is frequently, in effect, saying it was deliberate in his opinion because the player had his arm in an unnatural position in his opinion. Yeah, but now he’d be saying it’s deliberate or an accident because the player has his arm in an unnatural position. Seems to add an unnecessary nuance to the decision based on what constitutes a natural position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Regardless of whether you think it should be handball or not, it is farcical that the interpretation guidance directly contradicts the actual law. They should just redraft it from scratch rather than try to build on top of what is already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Philokles said: Regardless of whether you think it should be handball or not, it is farcical that the interpretation guidance directly contradicts the actual law. I mean, it would be, if it did. But it doesn't. That guidance again: Quote The following must be considered: • the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand) • the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) • the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, mormont said: I mean, it would be, if it did. But it doesn't. That guidance again: That is in reference to Consigliere’s comment about the guidance from next season, rather than the current guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, Philokles said: That is in reference to Consigliere’s comment about the guidance from next season, rather than the current guidance. Fair enough, but I'll wait to see how that guidance is actually worded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Red cards for everyone. Sokratis does nothing and gets a 2nd yellow. Fun times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Philokles said: That is in reference to Consigliere’s comment about the guidance from next season, rather than the current guidance. Just came across an article in The Times which says that Roberto Rossetti (UEFA's chief of referees) in January gave certain guidelines to referees regarding handball in UEFA competitions, and yes these guidelines do contradict the current law. The article is behind a paywall so I'll just post the relevant part: Quote "If the position of the arm is natural or normal we cannot penalise a player. There is the concept of 'deliberate' but it is not easy to see that because I can't say I have ever seen a defender deliberately doing a handball. The big challenge is the position of the arm. When the arm is totally out of the body above the shoulder it should be penalised. If the defender is making the body bigger in order to block the ball it is not fair. It is different if the defender is challenging or playing the ball and it rebounds. But if he is looking to block a cross or a shot on goal and the player is trying to spread his body then it is a handball." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 I'm a bit puzzled, because your quote doesn't contain any guidelines, and the comments it does contain are very much talking about deliberate handball: Quote If the defender is making the body bigger in order to block the ball it is not fair. It is different if the defender is challenging or playing the ball and it rebounds. But if he is looking to block a cross or a shot on goal and the player is trying to spread his body then it is a handball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Idk, my interpretation was that the guidelines given to UEFA officials in January are actually what the rules are going to be across the board next season i.e. arms extending beyond a natural silhouette regardless of intent. The article also mentions that Rossetti informed English clubs in January to expect a stricter enforcement of handball decisions in the Champions League than they may be used to in the Premier League. The author of the article (Martyn Ziegler) also tweeted that under the guidelines given to UEFA officials, the Kimpembe incident is a penalty whereas it would most likely not be viewed as a penalty in the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I have a couple of days in Manchester at the end of this week - Any suggestions on stuff I should see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 7 hours ago, Raja said: I have a couple of days in Manchester at the end of this week - Any suggestions on stuff I should see? The National Football Museum near Victoria Station. And if you like beer, The Angel pub and the Marble Arch - a local legend - are not far from there. The Museum of Science and Industry on Liverpool Road. Then a walk around nearby Castlefield, which has some relics of roman settlement, is interesting. By all means send me a PM and let me know what your interests are. More than happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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