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Make Mine Captain Marvel! (SPOILERS)

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Posted (edited)

After sleeping on it, I think the film has two major issues.

 

1. They seemed to be going for the whole "fish out of water trope" for Carrol at the start of the film when she lands on Earth, with no memory of having ever been a human before; it's very similar to the first Thor film in that regard........until it wasn't. She had no idea what anything was and so on...............until suddenly she knows what an internet cafe is............and what the internet itself is............and how to read our langue (I mean maybe her translator device could explain that one, but again it's never explained).............and how to drive a motorcycle.............and how to fly one of our planes and so on. Keep in mind this is all technology she was never exposed to before (from her POV at the time anyway), yet she uses them with no difficulty at all. The sad thing is a lot of these issues could have been solved if Fury just teamed up with her a little sooner. It was like they wanted a montage of Carrol investigating by herself on Earth first and completely forgot that Carrol should logically have no idea how anything works on Earth.

2. The second is the films climax. I'm a huge fan of the whole, "rooting for the underdog" style of story telling; so I might be the only one who has an issue with this one. Simply put, I don't think it's really all that much fun rooting for a hero who is too skilled and powerful right off the bat, but I think it's much more entertaining to watch and root for a hero who BECOMES powerful through the course of the story.

I mean just look at Spider Verse; Miles is a screw up who has no idea how his powers work or any idea how to step up and become the new Spider Man. As the movie goes on thanks to the help he gets from his friends and the lessons he learns, we see him become Spider Man and it's wonderful story telling. With this film we have Carrol suddenly learning to control her powers in the climax.............because she remembers her name? I don't know how those things are connected and it's probably my favorite scene of the movie, but I still don't understand how those things are connected. Then she just magically learns how to fly and masters it in about 30 seconds...............I mean really come on movie.

They also make her pretty much unstoppable for the final 20 minutes of the film. I have a hard time caring about a character when there's no real threat to him/her in what is suppose to be the highest point of tension. They pretty much make it impossible for her to lose that final battle, which to me is poor story telling. I really do believe in this rule, "action without consequence, is just loud noise" and that's honestly what the climax was for me.

 

All that being said, I actually really liked this film, I just didn't love it. I mean the CGI for Samuel l Jackson alone should earn them an Oscar. It was amazing.

Edited by sifth

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15 minutes ago, sifth said:

1. They seemed to be going for the whole "fish out of water trope" for Carrol at the start of the film when she lands on Earth, with no memory of having ever been a human before; it's very similar to the first Thor film in that regard........until it wasn't. She had no idea what anything was and so on...............until suddenly she knows what an internet cafe is............and what the internet itself is............and how to read our langue (I mean maybe her translator device could explain that one, but again it's never explained).............and how to drive a motorcycle.............and how to fly one of our planes and so on. Keep in mind this is all technology she was never exposed to before (from her POV at the time anyway), yet she uses them with no difficulty at all. The sad thing is a lot of these issues could have been solved if Fury just teamed up with her a little sooner. It was like they wanted a montage of Carrol investigating by herself on Earth first and completely forgot that Carrol should logically have no idea how anything works on Earth.

One could argue she's used to flying space ships. If she can figure out how to fly a space ship, she can figure out how to steer a motorcycle. There may even be a much more advanced Kree version of a motorcycle on Hala, so the Earth version was like downgrading to Power Wheels.

I really don't think it was so much "fish out of water." Carol is used to going to other planets and dealing with aliens -- some primitive. She doesn't get confused by being on an unusual planet, she figures the new planet out. Earth tech never confuses her -- she just needs to accomodate for the fact that it works differently than the advanced stuff she's used to. If you transported us back to 1960, we'd struggle to adapt, but we'd figure stuff out. It's not really as difficult than figuring stuff out, transported 50 years into the future.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

One could argue she's used to flying space ships. If she can figure out how to fly a space ship, she can figure out how to steer a motorcycle. There may even be a much more advanced Kree version of a motorcycle on Hala, so the Earth version was like downgrading to Power Wheels.

I really don't think it was so much "fish out of water." Carol is used to going to other planets and dealing with aliens -- some primitive. She doesn't get confused by being on an unusual planet, she figures the new planet out. Earth tech never confuses her -- she just needs to accomodate for the fact that it works differently than the advanced stuff she's used to. If you transported us back to 1960, we'd struggle to adapt, but we'd figure stuff out. It's not really as difficult than figuring stuff out, transported 50 years into the future.

Yea, but then it's the movies job to tell me this, like it wisely did when it explained how she understands our langue. It's not so much that she adapted that's my issue, but that she did it with little to no effort. Also is that Carrol's job? I just assumed she was a part of some Kree military team that kills Skrulls and other potential threats, think Seal Team 6 and not an undercover operative like Jason Born or James Bond.

Edited by sifth

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but than it's the movies job to tell me this, like it wisely did when it explained how she understands our langue. It's not so much that she adapted that's my issue, but that she did it with little to no effort.

Do we really need a movie to tell us everything, though? I feel like it's a natural conclusion to reach. Would Carol reciting the line, "I've learned how to drive spaceships bigger than Rhode Island, I can steer this tiny motorized scooter" or "I know how to interface with a sentient supercomputer, I can figure out this cute internet thing" really have made the movie noticeably better for you? I've seen others comment on where Maria's ex is. I feel like so many details people fixate on are just not relevant to the story.

Edited by Bastard of Boston

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9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I thought Brie and the directors tried to make Carol dead pan in her approach to humour and I think that worked for those who can get dead pan. But some people see it as wooden, which she wasn't.

agreed.... and I think that is her natural sense of humor... and some of the judgment is colloquial insofar as certain kinds of humor play better in different location... but a lot of it has to do with the preconception that "women aren't funny"... so when the comedy from a woman isn't "a pie in the face" its often dismissed... 

I know a lot of stand-ups... many of them women, and women in comedy are held to a much different (and tougher) standard

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3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think the film did a good job of showing a strong female lead without feeling preachy or knowing. I think the so called MRAs probably wouldn’t be too upset if they watched the movie

It’s a female led superhero flick. Of course mra’s will have an issue with it

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5 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

Would Carol reciting the line, "I've learned how to drive spaceships bigger than Rhode Island, I can steer this tiny motorized scooter" or "I know how to interface with a sentient supercomputer, I can figure out this cute internet thing" really have made the movie noticeably better for you?


For me it wasn't a big deal and it wouldn't have made a huge difference, but I think sifth's definitely right that they've somewhat tried to have their cake and eat it with that. Even if you can make it make sense, with no transition between the fish out of water bit and playing it more straight it's a bit of a tonal swerve.

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25 minutes ago, Bastard of Boston said:

Do we really need a movie to tell us everything, though? I feel like it's a natural conclusion to reach. Would Carol reciting the line, "I've learned how to drive spaceships bigger than Rhode Island, I can steer this tiny motorized scooter" or "I know how to interface with a sentient supercomputer, I can figure out this cute internet thing" really have made the movie noticeably better for you? I've seen others comment on where Maria's ex is. I feel like so many details people fixate on are just not relevant to the story.

What can I say, I'm a devil for the finer details in stuff like this. Plus it could have made for some great comedy moments. That's just me though.

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Haven't read the thread yet.  Just seen it.

Thank you, Stan  :crying:

Loved Ben Mendehlson.  Loved that he wasn't the bad guy, and that he didn't die!  I hope both he and Goose show up in future films.

Goose - MVP, natch.

Maria and Monica were awesome and wonderful.  Monica must be involved with SHIELD in the present somehow.

Post-credits scene suggests Carol shows up very early in Endgame as Steve still has a beard.

Carol herself: I like her.  I like that she's understated, personality wise.  It offsets her OTT powers, and it's just so fab to have a female superhero who is no-nonsense, a natural leader, not in anyway fan-servicey, and loves her powers!  I get that helping Skrulls, and ending the Kree v Skrull war would take time, but was that really the last time Carol was on Earth?  I would have thought she would want to check in on Monica and Maria at least, and try and get all her memories back.

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17 hours ago, Werthead said:

Well, she can fly from Earth into space, which Iron Man can't do and we haven't seen Thor do.

Pretty sure we watched iron man do exactly that in infinity war, as he catches up with ebony maws ship.

And thor can at least survive being in space for a while, as well as being hit by a sun. 

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26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Pretty sure we watched iron man do exactly that in infinity war, as he catches up with ebony maws ship.

He flies high up into the upper atmosphere (nice nod to his upgraded suit, as he couldn't do that in the original Iron Man), but not into high Earth orbit, no. He also doesn't accelerate beyond the speed of light and travel between star systems under his own power, which Danvers rather clearly does at the end of the movie. Also, Tony needs his suits to do jack, he doesn't have any powers of his own.

Quote

 

And thor can at least survive being in space for a while, as well as being hit by a sun. 

 

Thor seems to be on Captain Marvel's level of indestructibility and has an apparently limited flying ability via his hammer (although the hammer is just a focal point for his own powers etc), but we haven't seen him fly between star systems. He needs to summon the Bifrost for that, which suggests his power is more limited.

If anything, the MCU version of Danvers may be more powerful than the comics version, as it confirmed that her power comes straight from an Infinity Stone, which seems to beyond the powers of any of the other characters.

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On 3/9/2019 at 6:34 AM, Kalbear said:

I liked it. It was fine. 

Yeah. A decent two hour distraction but nothing special, imo. I don’t think Marvel make bad films anymore but they have definitely made better.

It was more interesting for what they tried to do than what they did. There was a lot of plot and thematic elements tied together that didn’t totally pay off, I thought.  Brie Larson can convey a lot in just a look but she had too much stuff to convey here.  Ultimately, I don’t like the idea that great will unlocks unlimited power, that’s more Green Lantern than Captain Marvel.

I’m absolutely going to disagree about the source of her amnesia. Not that it isn’t a reasonable interpretation that it came from the Kree but the film doesn’t confirm or even allude to this.  Carol thinks she remembers a Skrull shooting Mar Vell, that’s because she’s been conditioned to hate Skrulls.  Conditioned by an imperial military machine is a better example of gaslighting than just having something inserted in her brain.

I also thought the humour was poorly done, for the most part.  Just the tone, how they handle the silly space nonsense was off somehow.  Goose was good though, of course, but since Fleck and Biden lifted him straight from the comics I’m not gonna give them much credit there.

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2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 He also doesn't accelerate beyond the speed of light and travel between star systems under his own power, which Danvers rather clearly does at the end of the movie. Also, Tony needs his suits to do jack, he doesn't have any powers of his own.

Why do you think this?  She is powered by the same thing that apparently powered a FTL engine (although I wonder if that wasn’t just a fake out by Mar Vell) but that doesn’t mean she was travelling faster than light. Can you even see a red and gold light trail from something travelling faster than light?  I figured she was just flying fast alongside the ship.

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19 minutes ago, john said:

Why do you think this?  She is powered by the same thing that apparently powered a FTL engine (although I wonder if that wasn’t just a fake out by Mar Vell) but that doesn’t mean she was travelling faster than light. Can you even see a red and gold light trail from something travelling faster than light?  I figured she was just flying fast alongside the ship.

I'm assuming that she and the ship are going somewhere in a relatively sane timeframe, and she tells Fury she could be several galaxies away (which many millions of light-years) by the time he needs her, so yes, she is clearly travelling FTL.

There is a question mark over how this stuff works in the MCU, since they seem to have both a warp-FTL kind of travel but also travelling through jump points via that odd hexagon effect (which we see here and in the GotG movies).

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31 minutes ago, john said:

Ultimately, I don’t like the idea that great will unlocks unlimited power, that’s more Green Lantern than Captain Marvel.

I think that's a pretty unfair generalization. You can say every superhero movie is about great will and using it to overcome impossible odds -- it's just Green Lantern makes it the literal fuel for his power.

What I thought the film did really well was try and convey a lot of feminist themes. Throughout the film, Carol is constantly told to "keep her emotions in check." The idea being that her emotions will hold her back. When she was about to unleash on Yon-Rogg in the opening training sequence, he reined her in by telling her to "control it." They kept her on a leash.

To me, the entire movie was about the Kree manipulating Carol in their attempts to turn her into a weapon. At the end of the movie, she suddenly realized that the confines she was operating within were a complete fabrication of the Kree. They tried to convince her she should be afraid of herself. She leveled up when she embraced the idea that maybe she wasn't just being lied to about her past -- she was being lied to about her potential.

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3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I'm assuming that she and the ship are going somewhere in a relatively sane timeframe, and she tells Fury she could be several galaxies away (which many millions of light-years) by the time he needs her, so yes, she is clearly travelling FTL.

She’s getting there somehow sure, whether she is travelling many million times faster than light speed under her own steam is not clear at all. Frankly, if it’s going to take any longer than 20 minutes I’d expect her to get in the ship.  She gives the impression she is going to the war zone, which is presumably in inhabited space with jump points already set up, so why would she want to fly there?

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Just got back from seeing it - enjoyed it well enough, but it's probably solidly in the middle of the MCU films for me.  Some of the humor was great, other times it seemed a bit off.  Fury didn't take very long to adjust to the fact that there were aliens out there - although I feel like SHIELD must have known this by now.  At one point they showed a close up of his badge, and it read something like "Security Level 3".  As I recall from the movies and Agents of Shield, I think there are at least 7 or 8 security levels, so I guess he's not high enough up yet.  Too bad they couldn't have brought in Robert Redford for a cameo to play his boss.

One thing I really disliked is how he lost his eye.  I don't understand why the cat scratched him...and when it happened, it didn't seem like a big deal.  You'd think if it was that bad a scratch, Fury would have been a bit more pain.

I'm trying to think through the timeline of the Tesseract.  At some point it was hidden on Earth (in the Scandanavian church where Red Skull finds it in Captain America 1).  At the end of Cap 1, it ends up in the North Atlantic, right?  I don't remember how it got from there and then into SHIELD possession.  And then at some point...Mar-Vell gets hold of it, and then it ends up on Fury's desk.  I did see something online that the Project Pegasus referred to in this movie was a call-back to the SHIELD base in Avengers 1, which had "Project Pegasus" signs up.  I'd forgotten that.

As for relative powers, no way Iron Man is on the same level.  But Thor by the end of Infinity war is at least as powerful, if not more so than Captain Marvel (although who knows what she's been up to for 20 years).  He can survive in space, he can travel essentially FTL (what does it matter if it's via the bifrost), he took the brunt of a small star when forging his axe, when he arrived in Wakanda, he flew around blowing up those giant landing ships as easily as Captain Marvel did in this movie, and he beat Thanos, who was wielding all the Infinity Stones (he just should have "aimed for the head").

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You know, I just noticed something, there is a small, but silly plot hole in this film and it's the fact that they called SHIELD..........well SHIELD.

It was a running gag in the first Iron Man film that they needed a shorter name for the Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division.

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16 hours ago, Werthead said:

it was fun to see Mendelsohn be a bit more relaxed as an actor, even if the idea of an Australian Skrull was a bit odd.

I loved that he kept his Aussie accent when he was in Skrullface - very cool.

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I've been thinking more about the movie, and I'd say Fury was maybe a bit too goofy here. I've seen people wondering online what/where is the transition between this Fury and the Avengers Fury, but I'm wondering about the story Alexander Pierce told Steve Rogers in Winter Soldier, about when Fury stormed an embassy against orders to save hostages. Not really sure this Fury jives with that. There was also a photo shown in that scene between Rogers and Pierce, and Fury looked older, still with two eyes, than in this movie. So a bit of a retcon, I'd say.

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