Queries about dragons

[Narsil4]

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

Or wild animals,

I'm not so sure that blood magic works with animal blood. 

For instance when Drogo's horse is sacrificed, it doesn't seem to fully work to bring him back. 

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

Dragons may well have evolved before Man arose.

The gargoyle, sphinx and chimera symbolism surrounding them, seems to suggest they would likely be created from a magical combination of human souls, stone, firewyrms, wyverns and lizard-lions or similar creatures.  

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

4 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

I'm not so sure that blood magic works with animal blood. 

For instance when Drogo's horse is sacrificed, it doesn't seem to fully work to bring him back. 

The gargoyle, sphinx and chimera symbolism surrounding them, seems to suggest they would likely be created from a magical combination of human souls, stone, firewyrms, wyverns and lizard-lions or similar creatures.  

 

I saw somewhere a suggestion that blood/fire sacrifice to make dragon eggs hatch, derived from a situation that evolved  (perhaps way back before Man arose) where each wild mother dragon with eggs killed prey and flamed it so that her hatchlings could eat it.

If a wild female dragon had a hatchling, which fell in a hole, I wonder if she would/could pick it up in her mouth gently and rescue it? (since WoIaF/GoT dragons do not have front legs which could be used as arms.) (Compare real mother crocodiles carrying their hatchlings in their mouths from the nest to water.)

 

[Narsil4]

4 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

where each wild mother dragon with eggs killed prey and flamed it so that her hatchlings could eat it.

That's an interesting idea. Though I would question that creatures born from stone would evolve in a natural fashion.  

There seems to be a good possibility that the Valyrian ability to manipulate stone, comes from the Song of Earth, maybe taught to them by the CotF.  

The CotF may have used their Song to create stone trees, while Valyrians may have used it to create stone dragons. 

4 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

I wonder if she would/could pick it up in her mouth gently and rescue it?

Hard to say, I imagine they would act somewhat like highly intelligent dinosaurs or birds. 

So it seems likely to me that at least a few would show parental instincts.  

Interestingly, the hands and eyes of the CotF may suggest a relationship to birds or theropod dinosaurs.  

Perhaps also being hybrids themselves. 

[Anthony Appleyard]

Where are statements that dragons came from stone

5 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

That's an interesting idea. Though I would question that creatures born from stone would evolve in a natural fashion.  

There seems to be a good possibility that the Valyrian ability to manipulate stone, comes from the Song of Earth, maybe taught to them by the CotF.  

The CotF may have used their Song to create stone trees, while Valyrians may have used it to create stone dragons. 

...

I thought that Valyrian stone images including dragons were carved with mallet and chisel in the usual way, and their dragons were descended from wild dragons which had evolved from natural reptiles in a magic-infiltrated world.

If old dragon eggs go hard like stone, it may be a natural (magic-influenced) means for an egg in a situation where a hatchling would be unlikely to survive, to wait for better times, without being broken open and eaten in the meantime by egg-eating scavenging animals.

For the effects of magic on Planetos, even before Man arose, compare the effects of The Force in the Star Wars scenario, where even with science advanced enough to allow routine space travel, The Force must be factored into scientific equations about effects of physical processes, and one canon Star Wars book mentioned non-sentient animals that used Force to attract prey. Likewise likely with magic in Planetos's prehistory.

Wild dragons may be a successful end-result of magic-influenced evolution among a group of species of miscellaneous wyrm-type animals which would look weird or scary to humans seeing them. For a very small-scale real analog, compare the many strange fur color patterns that develop in domestic cats which are no longer subject to full-pressure need to survive in the wild.

[Narsil4]

4 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

Where are statements that dragons came from stone

Dany's eggs are stone and she hatches them into living dragons.   

The Last Dragon's eggs also seem to be stone.  

Greyscale seems to be a similar thing but tries to directly change people into stone dragons, rather than through a process of sacrifice. 

The stone sphinx also seems to symbolize dragons. Created from a combo of stone, humans and a number of animals.   

Then there is the Moon that cracked and spewed forth stone dragon meteors. 

So it's not explicitly stated, but it seems to be hinted at in numerous ways. 

4 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

I thought that Valyrian stone images including dragons were carved with mallet and chisel in the usual way

That may be true of inanimate statues, though they may also have the magical ability to mold stone by melting it with the dragon's Song of Fire and shaping it with the Song of Earth. 

4 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

their dragons were descended from wild dragons which had evolved from natural reptiles in a magic-infiltrated world.

Lines like "Two Kings to Wake the Dragon" seem to suggest that some form of king's blood is a requirement to initially hatch the stone eggs.  

Which powers the dragon linage for a time, until their fires burn low and they revert to stone.  

Eventually needing another Dany-like ritual to return them to life.  

So I doubt that populations of dragons existed for long periods of time, cut off from the sacrificial 14 Flames of Valryia or the like. 

And if they did live in the wild, they would have had to have some sort of magical connection to places, perhaps like Asshai, where constant sacrifices would be taking place. 

[Anthony Appleyard]

It seems to me that on Planetos, fire-magic naturally centers around volcanic heat sources, such as the Fourteen Flames at Valyria, and the natural volcanic vent on Dragonstone, which may have got its got its name because wild dragons nested there, before any Men thought to tame them.

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

> Dany's eggs are stone and she hatches them into living dragons.   

They may feel as hard as stone, but that is likely to protect them against egg-eaters while waiting for suitable conditions to hatch.  If e.g. dragons bred in Hekla volcano in Iceland, their eggs would have long waits between eruptions to make enough fire to activate them..

>The Last Dragon's eggs also seem to be stone.  

> Greyscale seems to be a similar thing but tries to directly change people into stone dragons, rather than through a process of sacrifice. 

I thought that greyscale made people gradually become human-shaped statues, perhaps by telling the body to fill itself with some sort of hard substance.

> The stone sphinx also seems to symbolize dragons. Created from a combo of stone, humans and a number of animals.   

Please, where is this described?

> Then there is the Moon that cracked and spewed forth stone dragon meteors. 

See https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragon#Ancient Dragons ::  says merely that the second moon spewed forth dragons.

> So it's not explicitly stated, but it seems to be hinted at in numerous ways. 

When Meraxes was killed in Dorne, its body did not turn to stone, but over time rotted away and left a skeleton.

I suspect that the fatalities in accidents trying to hatch dragon eggs in the later period, were because so many people who knew about dragons were killed in the Dance of the Dragons that the old proper way to hatch dragon eggs had been forgotten, and people were making wild guesses about how to hatch them.

I saw statements that Westerosi weather became colder when dragons died out, and warmer again when Damy's three were hatched, and that the world's dragons were part of a magical system that made the weather warmer (thus benefiting agriculture). That at least, would be an incentive to keep the dragon species alive.

 

[Narsil4]

2 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

It seems to me that on Planetos, fire-magic naturally centers around volcanic heat sources,

Souls could also be considered ethereal flames.

So the ability to manipulate flame, may lead to the process of infusing life into other objects like stone or what Thoros does with Beric.  

54 minutes ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

but that is likely to protect them against egg-eaters

Cool idea, though it seems to be something that was uncommon, due to how the last dragon's eggs are described. 

58 minutes ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

I thought that greyscale made people gradually become human-shaped statues, perhaps by telling the body to fill itself with some sort of hard substance.

I would agree, essentially turning them into living gargoyles.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyle#Legend_of_the_Gargouille  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotesque_(architecture)  

Which I think is perhaps the 'Kings becoming Dragons' magic going haywire.  

Rather than being sacrificed and rising from a stone egg, it seems to be directly trying to turn them, with terrible broken results. 

Perhaps also being related to Rhaego's transformation. 

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

Please, where is this described?

I think it's implied by lines like these.   

Sphinxes riddling with Dragons and the Sphinx is the riddle.  

With the Valyrian version of Sphinx with human faces suggesting humans in with the mix of animals.  

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

says merely that the second moon spewed forth dragons.

Which seems to have rained down on the planet as the Hammer of the Waters, Blackstone, Dawn, etc.

Drogon's egg seems to be molded from Blackstone.  

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

When Meraxes was killed in Dorne, its body did not turn to stone, but over time rotted away and left a skeleton.

It seems to be a slow process of their flames burning out within their bloodline.  

Much like how Weirwoods in the open, seem to fossilize unnaturally. 

So for instance Balerion and his initial kin may have been hatched like Dany's ritual. 

With them naturally burning out, with eggs eventually laid as stone and not being viable, without having been refueled. 

The high iron content of their bones might be considered meteoric. 

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

the old proper way to hatch dragon eggs had been forgotten

Yea. Though the ability to refuel them, might have been lost earlier, with Valyria.  

Perhaps the Dragonpit helped sustain them longer, but their demise may have been inevitable in Westeros. Without the sacrificial 14 Flames of Valyria powering them constantly. 

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

people were making wild guesses about how to hatch them.

I'd agree. Though some people like Mel seem to have the right idea. She might have more luck if she traded the swords for eggs. 

1 hour ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

I saw statements that Westerosi weather became colder when dragons died out, and warmer again when Damy's three were hatched, and that the world's dragons were part of a magical system that made the weather warmer (thus benefiting agriculture). That at least, would be an incentive to keep the dragon species alive.

In general winters seem to have been getting shorter and summers longer.  

Though it also seems like a possibility the False Spring may have been caused by the Red Comet getting close enough to change the weather for a short period. 

[Anthony Appleyard]

At time-mark 1.42 in this Youtube video

with video-maker's comment "Dracarys" ; but to me likeliest an extremely bright flashlight shining on ordinary steamy breath.

[Anthony Appleyard]

I have seen discussions that seem to think that if someone is bonded to a dragon, then he/she is permanently fireproof. But in the end bit of the book "A Game of Thrones", Dany does not walk into the pyre until the three eggs exploded as they hatched. Likely, as the eggs came out of dormancy with the contained young fully developed, the young started to emit a fireproofing magic, which was intended to last until the hatchlings were hatched and well clear out of whatever fire had hatched the eggs.

 

[Narsil4]

13 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

the young started to emit a fireproofing magic

Its hard to say exactly how Dany's ritual worked, though some magic, seems to work much like the ideas surrounding Sympathetic Magic. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic#Correspondence

Quote

Correspondence is based on the idea that one can influence something based on its relationship or resemblance to another thing.

So for instance she may have become immune to the flame because she was representing the cracked moon that birthed dragons. While her dragons may represent major pieces of the moon that fell to earth. 

[Anthony Appleyard]

What happens when dragons must be handled, or approached, by men who are not their masters?  This happens in two cases:

(1) Sometimes, after a dragonmaster died, when he was cremated, his dragon lit the funeral pyre. Since nobody else would have claimed the dragon so soon, how did someone lead it to the funeral and tell it to blow fire (low power and not much) at the pyre?

(2) The book Fire & Blood ( https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Fire_%26_Blood ) in one place in an incident in the Dragonpit, mentions a "pile of dragon droppings". That shows that some dragon-keeper would likely need to move the dragons temporarily out of the area,, so that he could muck out and clean up and leave food for the dragons (like I have seen when watching men cleaning out the elephant enclosure at Chester Zoo in England); or else go in among the dragons to do the job.

 

[HexMachina]

Handling a dragon doesnt present the same challenge as riding. We see this in the main series with Irri and Jhiqui when Dany’s dragons become familiar and somewhat comfortable with them helping to handle them. And in Fire and Blood, we are told Syrax was accustomed to Joffrey and so felt no alarm as he worked around her. It was only when he tried to ride her that things turned sour

[Anthony Appleyard]

I suppose that it had to happen :: I just now came across an advertisement for a "Game-of-Thrones-themed motor scooter": its metal or plastic covers were decorated with a computer-printed pattern of dragon scales.

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

About controlling a dragon without being "claim-linked" to it :: In "Blood and Fire", it says that Rhaena Targaryen (who rode the dragon Dreamfyre), after her shocks and losses, moved to Harrenhal, and settled there, and sometimes flew about: therefore she had Dreamfyre with her. There she eventually died of natural causes :: that left Dreamfyre at Harrenhal without a rider; how was Dreamfyre got back to King's Landing?

 

[Lord Varys]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:42 PM, Anthony Appleyard said:

About controlling a dragon without being "claim-linked" to it :: In "Blood and Fire", it says that Rhaena Targaryen (who rode the dragon Dreamfyre), after her shocks and losses, moved to Harrenhal, and settled there, and sometimes flew about: therefore she had Dreamfyre with her. There she eventually died of natural causes :: that left Dreamfyre at Harrenhal without a rider; how was Dreamfyre got back to King's Landing?

George drops the ball of the mechanics of this pretty much. Supposedly we are to believe that other dragonriders can move riderless dragons, possibly with the help of their dragons. That would mean that Jaehaerys I and Alysanne moved Dreamfyre with the help of their dragons to KL, just as they moved Vhagar from Dragonstone to KL at an earlier point (she was in the Dragonpit when Baelon later claimed her). We do know that this kind of thing is possible with dragons who are separated from their riders (Daemon took both Caraxes and Vhagar across the Narrow Sea while Laena and girls went by ship).

Where things really break down is George 'new explanation' as to how Aegon the Uncrowned claimed Quicksilver. King Aenys died on Dragonstone not in KL - and we do know Quicksilver was present at Aenys' funeral -, so how did she get to KL to be claimed there by Aegon a year later? Why did Maegor bother to move his half-brother's dragon to KL? And when exactly did he do that? He and Visenya were rather occupied with military compaigns and the torching of castles in 42-43 AC...

Also, Dreamfyre apparently also remained behind in KL in 41 AC when Aegon and Rhaena started their dragonless progress. Where exactly was she kept, and how is it that she is still alive so that Rhaena can reclaim her in 43 AC? Or did Quicksilver fly to KL on her own? If so, why and when did that happen? The Warrior's Sons seized power in KL in 41-42 AC - and Dreamfyre was already there then. Are we to believe that they just continued to feed a chained dragon? Why didn't they slay Dreamfyre? There is no reason why they shouldn't have tried at least.

In fact, the best scenario for this whole thing would have been if we go with George having Aenys command that Rhaena leave her dragon behind would have been the following:

- Aegon and Rhaena go on a progress without dragons.

- Dreamfyre is kept in the royal manse atop Visenya's Hill but isn't chained; when the Faith Militant seize power in KL the dragon flies away and can thus avoid being killed by the fanatics.

- Rhaena and Dreamfyre are reunited because the dragon senses her need (or so it is interpreted at least, sort of like there are people who think Sunfyre searched out Aegon II) or because she hears where Dreamfyre has made her lair (say, somewhere in the Riverlands) and Rhaena and Aegon search her out.

- With Dreamfyre both Rhaena and Aegon fly to Dragonstone where Aegon claims his late father's dragon Quicksilver who was simply forgotten/abandoned there by Visenya and Maegor. Then Aegon and Rhaena start their campaign in the Riverlands.

How the ridiculous plot that Alyssa, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne could hide anywhere with Vermithor and Silverwing in tow could be salvaged I don't know. That would be pretty hard. Them hiding on some rocks in the middle of nowhere in Blackwater Bay/the Narrow Sea could make some sense, I guess. And perhaps they flew to Storm's End in the middle of a night and entered the castle by ways of the harbor cave. Down there the dragons could, perhaps, remain without being discovered by the outside world for a couple of weeks or a few months - but these beasts do have a healthy appetite, and the Baratheon servants, retainers, and peasants would have quickly realized if their lord suddenly consumed thrice or four times the meat he did before...

The idea that two large dragons and their riders and mother can hide for years is just nonsense - and with Rhaena this is actually called nonsense in the very book. She and Dreamfyre cannot hide, so they don't even try. But Alyssa and her children did not only try but pulled it off - and Rhaena actually knew that.

[Anthony Appleyard]

In the TV series, I get the impression that when Dany is bringing her 3 dragons to Westeros, she rides Drogon; and Rhaegal and Viserion follow riderless. But Dany was an unusual case, as also those 3 dragons thought that she was their mother, like (in the real world) hatchling wild geese who are imprinted on a human.

If a dragon-rider controls his dragon telepathically or similarly, it could that he could also telepathically order his dragon to order another dragon to follow. Dragons are magical :: they must be magical, to be able to fly despite the laws of aerodynamics.

As regards how a rider controls his/her dragon, the only verbal order to a dragon that I have come across is "Dracarys!"; we never seem to read of or hear an order to turn left/right/up/down, or to take off or land. or to go faster or slower, or whatever.

As I wrote before, sometimes when a dragon-rider dies, his dragon lights his funeral pyre; thus someone must be able to control the deceased's now claimerless dragon to go from its stable to the pyre and light it. Perhaps leading a dragon walking on the ground is easier than flying on it. Perhaps the dragon-handlers based in the Dragonpit have a special power :: I have watched elephant-handlers in Chester Zoo in England. But when King Aegon I has died and is cremated, GRRM may have realized this, and he wrote that Aegon I's pyre was lit by Vhagar (which Visenya may have been riding), not by Balerion.

 

[Narsil4]

Dragons likely have close to human intelligence, similar to the birds inhabited by the singers. 
As they seem to be created from human souls. 

They just don't have the ability to speak in terms a human can understand. Though they sing the Song of Fire better than most. 

So for the most part, riders and caretakers would likely just tell them what to do. Though the bond would seem to allow those commands/requests to come from afar. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 3/7/2019 at 8:49 AM, Anthony Appleyard said:

Is it known about dragons in the Game of Thrones world?:-

(1) How fast can they fly?: maximum, and cruising speed for long flights.

(2) How far can they fly before they need to rest and land and feed?

(3) How much does flaming drain their flight-energy?

(4) Do the books say anything about absence or presence of front legs? I know that the movies show no front legs and in front they walk on the wrists of their wings, a feature likely taken from real-world pterosaurs.

(In The Hobbit by Tolkien, the book mentions Smaug's foreleg, but the movie shows no front legs.)

 

The variance would be great from one dragon to another.  An athletic dragon would be faster and be able to fly longer than the dragon equivalent of Samwell Tarly.  Drogon, who takes after Drogo, would be a most magnificent specimen.  Also bear in mind that dragons are not scared of water.  They can enter the ocean and float to rest if they should choose to do so.  

[Jaak]

On 1/2/2020 at 11:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Also, Dreamfyre apparently also remained behind in KL in 41 AC when Aegon and Rhaena started their dragonless progress. Where exactly was she kept, and how is it that she is still alive so that Rhaena can reclaim her in 43 AC? Or did Quicksilver fly to KL on her own? If so, why and when did that happen? The Warrior's Sons seized power in KL in 41-42 AC - and Dreamfyre was already there then. Are we to believe that they just continued to feed a chained dragon? Why didn't they slay Dreamfyre? There is no reason why they shouldn't have tried at least.

Aenys was surprised by IIRC just 2 Poor Fellows infiltrating the under construction Red Keep, and saved by Kingsguard. Faith Militant did not storm Red Keep then. After the insecurity of Red Keep was revealed and Aenys decided to evacuate with Visenya to Dragonstone, they did have time to pack up their supporters - and Dreamfyre.