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Poll. Is Bran ever leaving the cave?

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And there’s also Martin’s “NO” on a manuscript page (ADwD) to his editor who had asked if Coldhands was Benjen. 

 

One has to be careful how one addresses this.

Coldhands died a long time ago.

Benjen disappeared a while ago.

Maybe martin had Benjen disappear because Benjen had information about Jon's momma.

Maybe when Bran slips his skin and merges with the weirwood Bran will be the backstory storyteller.

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5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Westeros is in OK shape.

It is politically divided and polarized.  It is going to need all hands on deck, and that may be difficult.

Sam is at Oldtown, and can't order anyone to do anything.  And even if they realize dragonglass is useful, it still has to be turned into weapons.

Dany has only three dragons, and they aren't very big.  The Fields of Fire may no be all that large.  And eventually is the operative word here.  She is still a long ways away.

I expect Westeros will win anyway, but it won't be easy.

Agree with you about Bran.  It is going to be difficult to affect events stuck in a tree.  I expect he will get useful information, and then leave so as to be able to disseminate it effectively.  I expect the underground river empties into the Milkwater or the sea.

Lucky for Westeros, the Others haven't attacked the Wall yet ... it's like they are waiting for something ... or someone.

 

1 hour ago, broken one said:

"he died long time ago" according to a child of the forest (Leaf).

CotF are the bad guys, they are liars!

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

And there’s also Martin’s “NO” on a manuscript page (ADwD) to his editor who had asked if Coldhands was Benjen. 

Show me the public announcement that GRRM made saying Coldhands is not Benjen, and I will show you the two connecting passages in two different books that suggests Coldhands is Benjen.

Besides, Coldhands is Benjen's dead body, but not his soul. Benjen is dead, and Coldhand speaks because the Others are warged into him.

If Bran can warg into Hodor and make Hodor say "Hodor", best believe the Others can make any of their wights speak.

 

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Surely you jest.

No, I'm not. I have four type of ways to prove they are all bad guys: tradition clues & foreshadowing, wordplay of names, maps and Top Secret Theory (super funny!) I just have been too lazy to write it up. I have a missing link and I cannot find a high-resolution of a certain map on the internet. This would have been the 7th part of my twins theory called "The Dark Sister Rebellion from Beyond the Wall"

 

If you guys still think Bloodraven's intent is to help the realm, you guys are falling for the bait like Bran is. Sorry Bloodraven fans, but the story of the Rat Cook was always meant for Bloodraven and his son Craster. 

Edited by The Map Guy

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2 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

CotF are the bad guys

Nope.

2 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Show me the public announcement that GRRM made saying Coldhands is not Benjen

It's linked in my previous post. 

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's linked in my previous post. 

That's not a public announcement. That was personal interaction between GRRM and his editor.

Anyways, he wrote "NO" because Coldhands is Benjen's body, but not his mind or soul.

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Ok I decided not to leave you guys hanging, this is what I found:

 

Subtle foreshadowing of Craster = Bloodraven's son

Quote

 

"Growing up a bastard in his grandfather's castle?" Jon shrugged. "That depends in great part on your father, and what sort of boy [Gilly's son] this is. If he takes after you . . ."

"He won't. Craster's his real father. You saw him, he was hard as an old tree stump, and Gilly is stronger than she looks."

-Samwell IV ASOS

 

 

 

I guess there is a baby with King's Blood at the Wall after all ... I guess that is how Jon is going to be resurrected.

 

 

Subtle foreshadowing of Benjen = Coldhands, killed at Craster's Keep while he slept

Quote

 

"I've not seen Benjen Stark for three years," he was telling Mormont. "And if truth be told, I never once missed him." - Craster

- Jon III ACOK

Benjen was investigating into Waymar, and Waymar stopped at Craster's Keep. Craster confirms Waymar, but not Benjen. How odd that Benjen never made it to Craster's Keep...unless Craster is lying.

Quote

 

Ghost laid his head on his paws and went to sleep by the fire. Jon stretched out beside him, grateful for the warmth. He was cold and wet, but not so cold and wet as he'd been a short time before. Perhaps tonight the Old Bear will learn something that will lead us to Uncle Benjen.


He woke to the sight of his own breath misting in the cold morning air. When he moved, his bones ached. [The] Ghost was gone, the fire burnt out. Jon reached to pull aside the cloak he'd hung over the rock, and found it stiff and frozen. He crept beneath it and stood up in a forest turned to crystal.

- Jon III ACOK, at Craster's Keep

 

Quote

"Summer can find the village," Bran said suddenly, his words misting in the air. He did not wait to hear what Meera might say, but closed his eyes and let himself flow from his broken body.

- Bran I ADWD

Quote

"The scarf." Bran glanced about uneasily, but there was not a raven to be seen. All the big black birds had left them when the ranger did. No one was listening. Even so, he kept his voice low. "The scarf over his mouth, it never gets all hard with ice, like Hodor's beard. Not even when he talks."
Meera gave [Coldhands] a sharp look. "You're right. We've never seen his breath, have we?"
"No." A puff of white heralded each of Hodor's hodors. When Jojen or his sister spoke, their words could be seen too. Even the elk left a warm fog upon the air when he exhaled.

- Bran I ADWD

 

Craster is Bloodraven's son, and Craster killed Benjen in his sleep. What does this all mean?? Bloodraven, Craster, Coldhands and CotF are working with the Others. The story of the Rat Cook was always about Bloodraven, Craster and his children. The Others are invading through the Nightfort.

Sleep well everyone!

Edited by The Map Guy

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8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Yes, I think he leaves.

The underground river is there for a reason.

I also have this uneasy feeling that the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven do not have the Seven Kingdoms' interests at heart, and that Bran will decide to leave when he discovers this.

(Somewhat similar to the relationships between Sansa and Littlefinger and between Arya and the FM.  Once they figure out their mentors' true motives, they will likely bail.)

I think Bloodraven has Bran's best interests at heart. Both are highborn second sons who had a significant physical/mental obstacles that doesn't stop them from their potential to do great things; both were in terrible danger due to the political climate; both were forced to set aside their family for "the greater good"

I think Bloodraven genuinely cares for Bran but he'll be going about it all wrong. The CotF? Oh no, I feel the same. They are bad news. I think Bloodraven has resigned to his fate and he wants Bran to do the same thing. Bran however won't do that...

Here's the order I think the Stark kids will leave their mentors:

Arya will leave first, sometime before the final act of Winds. Bran will be the next to leave, likely at the very, very end of his chapters in Winds. Sansa will be the last; I don't see her kicking Littlefinger to the curb until the middle of Dream until she is reunited with all of her surviving siblings (and maybe even mother) in Winterfell.

All three will struggle to break away (even little Rickon will have a very hard time leaving Skagos and getting to Winterfell) and their mentors will continue to haunt them even after they do. I feel like Arya is going to be a little like Jason Bourne in A Dream of Spring, constantly on the run and fighting conspiracies. Bran will likely have no peace either as a link between him, the Great Other and the Bloodraven will be made.

But Sansa will take the longest to cut ties. Not because Littlefinger is anymore dangerous than FM or the CoTF but because Littlefinger has his hands in one too many pies and has forced Sansa to rely on him for damn near everything. Sansa's situation won't get better until Arya and Bran show up in Winterfell; how can it?

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14 hours ago, Nevets said:

I also have this uneasy feeling that the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven do not have the Seven Kingdoms' interests at heart, and that Bran will decide to leave when he discovers this.

I think they all do have the best interest of the living at heart, but I wouldn't bet on them all having the same agenda concerning Bran or the way how to work best against the Others.

The CotF clearly want Bran to become a tree, they seem to see this (having a living Greenseer stuck to the trees) as essential for the fight. Bloodraven may not (we don't know yet) agree with this part, he surely agrees with them about Bran having to learn what is going on. He may be more sensible about the fact that the informations Bran will gather have to reach people who can't communicate with the trees. And while he seems to see Bran as his successor, he also may be willing to wait some more months or years till the problems with the Others are solved.

Beside, something can still go so seriously wrong that Bran and his troupe have to leave the cave no matter what was originally planed for them by the CotF and Bloodraven.

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32 minutes ago, Morte said:

I think they all do have the best interest of the living at heart, but I wouldn't bet on them all having the same agenda concerning Bran or the way how to work best against the Others.

The CotF clearly want Bran to become a tree, they seem to see this (having a living Greenseer stuck to the trees) as essential for the fight. Bloodraven may not (we don't know yet) agree with this part, he surely agrees with them about Bran having to learn what is going on. He may be more sensible about the fact that the informations Bran will gather have to reach people who can't communicate with the trees. And while he seems to see Bran as his successor, he also may be willing to wait some more months or years till the problems with the Others are solved.

Beside, something can still go so seriously wrong that Bran and his troupe have to leave the cave no matter what was originally planed for them by the CotF and Bloodraven.

Bran is def. leaving the cave. His story would be boring if he never faced any danger of any kind again because he was in his safe little tree throne in the cave. I think in the very end he will end up wedded to a tree. Just not to that tree in that cave. Hence the bittersweet. He will see his family again but will have to choose to be a tree in order to set the world/ seasons right again.

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17 minutes ago, Impbread said:

Bran is def. leaving the cave. His story would be boring if he never faced any danger of any kind again because he was in his safe little tree throne in the cave. I think in the very end he will end up wedded to a tree. Just not to that tree in that cave. Hence the bittersweet. He will see his family again but will have to choose to be a tree in order to set the world/ seasons right again.

Agree completely. The bittersweet for Bran will be that he will taste life again, but in the end will choose responsibility over family and - perhaps - even love (Meera), to help the world heal, serve the children and the trees and stand vigil in Bloodraven's stead.

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@Impbread and @Morte - I'm not so sure I agree with you guys on this. I may be overlaying fantasy trope on this (and God forbid I do that since we are talking about GRRM here), but to me indications point to an ultimate sacrifice to end the cycle for good. Otherwise, why tell the story here, at these places and times?

I have always had the nagging feeling that Sam and Bran's destinies are linked somehow. They meet only once, not only at the nexus of the conflict, the Wall, but at the super secret magical origin of it all. Bran goes north to search for answers. Sam goes south to search for answers. They are both facilitated by Coldhands, who before them seemed to be the only one with knowledge of the Black Gate.

I think that Sam will discover something that Bran will then use to end the conflict once and for all, resulting in his death or even worse.

You chuckle at my Coldhands=The Last Hero. I'm not entirely joking. To me, the slim evidence fits the bill as we know it.

Edited by Three-Fingered Pete
forgot something

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10 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

That's not a public announcement. That was personal interaction between GRRM and his editor.

It does not change much. I would not expect GRRM to hold a press conference to announce it. We'll see.

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1 hour ago, Impbread said:

Bran is def. leaving the cave. His story would be boring if he never faced any danger of any kind again because he was in his safe little tree throne in the cave. I think in the very end he will end up wedded to a tree. Just not to that tree in that cave. Hence the bittersweet. He will see his family again but will have to choose to be a tree in order to set the world/ seasons right again.

 

Things he can do with the tree would be interesting enough to make up for the lack of danger boredome. And I think he faced enough danger already.

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2 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I'm not so sure I agree with you guys on this. I may be overlaying fantasy trope on this (and God forbid I do that since we are talking about GRRM here), but to me indications point to an ultimate sacrifice to end the cycle for good. Otherwise, why tell the story here, at these places and times?

Could be. we don't know enough about the first Long Night, not even WHETHER it was the first at all. If it is a cycle you are most likely right, if however the Others are coming back due to some event (like the humans unknowingly tipping an achieved balance or breaking some pact or magical seal) there are other possibilities open, but of course the price to reforge the broken whatsoever could still be Bran's (or others) life. But:

3 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I think that Sam will discover something that Bran will then use to end the conflict once and for all, resulting in his death or even worse.

I don't know if the life in the tree is not worse than death. Bloodraven doesn't sounds too happy to me: also even if the body dies the greenseers seem to live on in the trees, having to watch helplessly, not only the present, but also the past, their loved once long dead, not able to help them or be with them... And it would be interesting how they feel about the apparent lose of self in the process.

3 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

I have always had the nagging feeling that Sam and Bran's destinies are linked somehow. They meet only once, not only at the nexus of the conflict, the Wall, but at the super secret magical origin of it all. Bran goes north to search for answers. Sam goes south to search for answers. They are both facilitated by Coldhands, who before them seemed to be the only one with knowledge of the Black Gate.

I'm 100% with you on the Sam will discover something that Bran will use and their linked destinies. Maybe they will even start to move again in opposite direction at the same time?

3 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

You chuckle at my Coldhands=The Last Hero. I'm not entirely joking. To me, the slim evidence fits the bill as we know it.

Well, Coldhands can indeed be dead since the last Long Night, it would fit the "killed long time ago" by Leaf. I don't think there was a single "Last Hero" or "AA" in the way the myths tell it, but Coldhands could be the person who was sacrificed/had to sacrifice himself at the end. It would be another possible explanation why he is still himself, and not controlled by the Others. And it would be worse than death, yes.

Interesting idea, will add it to the "possible-shelf". ;)

 

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7 hours ago, broken one said:

It does not change much. I would not expect GRRM to hold a press conference to announce it. We'll see.

Like I said, GRRM said "NO" because Benjen's soul is gone. But Benjen's body is Coldhands.

He woke to the sight of his own breath misting in the cold morning air. When he moved, his bones ached. [The] ghost was gone, the fire burnt out. Jon reached to pull aside the cloak he'd hung over the rock, and found it stiff and frozen. He [crypt] beneath it and stood up in a Forest [of Children] turned to crystal.

- Jon III ACOK, at Craster's Keep

I still have more citations and evidence (in different forms) but I'll save that for another time. I've been lazy. And I don't have a high resolution digital map of TLOIAF Journeys. If you guys want to investigate on your own, analyze Bran's Journey in TLOIAF and re-read ADWD Bran I. Coldhands is intentionally making the Bran's voyage extra difficult. And yes, there is a "long lake" for the "girl in grey" vision of Mel too.

If everyone still thinks Broodraven, Craster, and CotF are good guys, you guys are falling for the bait D&D and HBO took. And look what happened to Bran in the TV show, he is dull and useless. Sure TV Bran helped us flashback to TOJ, but the books do not work like that. There are no weirwood trees in Dorne.

And if you think being stuck in a tree for the rest of your life is the key in saving Westeros (a country that already has the tools to fight the Others) go ahead and volunteer to be stuck in a tree yourself. Bran definitely doesn't want it, he said it himself in ADWD Bran III.

A little boy with creepy Freddy Kruger dreams and a three-eyed crow suggesting Bran to march ~1,000 miles (sorry don't know the exact distance off the top of my head) in terrible weather and dangerous roads, promising him the ability to fly. After a journey that took the Long Way on a map, the boy finally gets there and a creepy half dead man stuck in a tree with his little minion-dwarfs are preparing to make the boy stuck in the tree for the rest of his life too.

Bran thought he was going there to learn how to fly, but he gets a tree instead. 

Yea sure, Bloodraven has good intentions....Bloodraven never baited anyone before.....oh wait..... 

 

Anyways, Book Bran is in a lot of trouble. After he escapes or gets rescued by Jaime, Brienne or Theon, he is going have a massive part of the ADOS ending.

Edited by The Map Guy

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22 hours ago, Nevets said:

Agree with you about Bran.  It is going to be difficult to affect events stuck in a tree.  I expect he will get useful information, and then leave so as to be able to disseminate it effectively.  I expect the underground river empties into the Milkwater or the sea.

Uhhh, ravens?  Fully talkative ravens filled with semi sentient Children ghosts.  Messengers and humanity-salvage coordinators extraordinare.   Also, has anyone considered this?

Quote

"Why would anyone leave a country where people have ponies to come to a non- pony country? " - - Seinfeld

Why would Bran ever give up the expansive jet-setting Weir lifestyle to go back to being carried on the backs of dimwits and pervs, the kinds of people who carry your luggage up to the room?

 

16 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Coldhands is the Last Hero.

It is known.

Hey.  That's better than Bran heading back south after going north for so long,  just so he can be free and pointless.   Cold Hands growing into a voice of massive revelation, perhaps when bloodraven gets ganked or fails to earn Bran's confidence.  Bran would be saying, "This isn't how it is in Nan's stories," and Cold Hands would chime in with, "I know, right?  I'm in those stories, and I'm still waiting for my life to be as awesome as the tales tell it.  But you've got to buck up, little man.  This shit is real.  So nail yourself back onto the friggin tree and let's give this saving the world thing a go, what do you say?"  

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 2:40 PM, Nevets said:

Yes, I think he leaves.

The underground river is there for a reason.

I also have this uneasy feeling that the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven do not have the Seven Kingdoms' interests at heart, and that Bran will decide to leave when he discovers this.

(Somewhat similar to the relationships between Sansa and Littlefinger and between Arya and the FM.  Once they figure out their mentors' true motives, they will likely bail.)

I really love how Bran is written showing this uneasy feeling, but we have his curiosity getting the best of him anyhow. The kid who kept climbing out of curiosity still hasn't learned his lesson about falling. 

I'm undecided about the motives of the BR and the CotF. Also the FM. I also wonder if LF isn't actually doing something good but for completely selfish reasons and in the worst way possible. 

I think the lesson that the Stark kids* need to learn is to make their own judgements and not to blindly trust anyone because others have motives too and they may be wrong however well-intentioned they may appear. It's also not in keeping of the message that they all need to work together if one group is right/superior and all of the others are wrong. 

*Jon is also learning to not blindly trust in the traditions of the NW. Well-intentioned, but they've lost their way. 

Edited by Lollygag

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20 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Lucky for Westeros, the Others haven't attacked the Wall yet ... it's like they are waiting for something ... or someone.

 

Yepper, they are waiting for Georgie to finish telling the tale.

19 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Benjen was investigating into Waymar, and Waymar stopped at Craster's Keep. Craster confirms Waymar, but not Benjen. How odd that Benjen never made it to Craster's Keep...unless Craster is lying.

Of course Craster is lying.

Yet, somehow Craster, who resides in the Haunted Forest knows Gared is short a head.

3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

If everyone still thinks Broodraven, Craster, and CotF are good guys, you guys are falling for the bait D&D and HBO took. And look what happened to Bran in the TV show, he is dull and useless. Sure TV Bran helped us flashback to TOJ, but the books do not work like that. There are no weirwood trees in Dorne.

Craster, in my opinion is not a good guy. I am not basing my opines on the you know what.

In the five books proper, not including the short story's and history books, there are minimal references to Bloodraven aka Bryden Rivers.

The CotF are considered extinct. The Others are considered grumpkins.

Yet, two little crannog youngsters go to WF to affirm their oath to Stark after Jojen tells his poppa, Howland, about a greendream.

Not only does Benjen (possibly a person who knows sumthing about Lyanna) go missing, this reader has not met Howland, the little crannogman Howland, the one who spent time on the Isle of Faces. Remember Howland, the one who survived the ToJ?

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV   "You told me that the children of the forest had the greensight. I remember."   "Some claimed to have that power. Their wise men were called greenseers."/

No one in the story bad mouths the CotF. Why, do you consider the CotF bad guys?

AND why did LC Rivers go ranging only to disappear and end up in a CotF cave that is warded?

Thanks.

 

 

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23 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

That's not a public announcement. That was personal interaction between GRRM and his editor.

Yes, it wasn’t a public announcement. Then again, why should he make one?

23 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Anyways, he wrote "NO" because Coldhands is Benjen's body, but not his mind or soul.

No, he wrote “NO” because Coldhands isn’t Benjen, and he isn’t Benjen’s souless body either. :)

 

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