Book & Show

[Lollygag]

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Technically, it doesn't even have to involve direwolves. It can be anyone or anything acting on behalf of the Starks. GRRM does this sort of switcheroo a lot. 

Here we have the Manderlys acting in the Starks' stead. They were hounded from their home as Ramsay has done. Manderly eats his enemies as wolves would do (Frey pies). 

ADWD The Prince of Winterfell

The Manderlys ran from the south once, hounded from their lands and keeps by enemies. Blood runs true. The fat man would like to kill us all, I do not doubt, but he does not have the belly for it, for all his girth. Under that sweaty flesh beats a heart as craven and cringing as … well … yours." 

 

Stoneheart is a shadowcat Stark ripping dogs (Freys) to pieces. No doubt she also has the Boltons and Winterfell in her sights. Mance brings this up in the context of ceding to the rule of another they don't deem as having earned that position. 

ADWD Jon V

The brothers on the wagons had seen this face as well, Jon did not doubt. No one spoke of it, but the message was plain to read for any man with eyes. Jon had once heard Mance Rayder say that most kneelers were sheep. "Now, a dog can herd a flock of sheep," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had said, "but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them." Neither shadowcats nor stones were like to give up the gods they had worshiped all their lives to bow down before one they hardly knew. 
 

Stannis' army is now engaged in eating humans which is linked to starving wolves and Stannis is set up to execute/sacrifice Theon to the old gods though I don't think this will end up happening. 

 

Forgot to add where GRRM has done this before.

Tyrion and Sansa were blamed for assassinating Joff. What were they wearing? Tyrion was wearing black with red and Sansa was wearing silver and purple with stones from Asshai and she was later described as turning into a wolf and sprouting bat* wings to get away. Targ revenge on the usurpers. 

*Rhaego was described as having bat wings, so really, bat wings = dragon wings in this case. 

 

[Ser Gareth]

10 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

Stannis is going to fall relatively early on either way, and whoever defeats him will probably be the main antagonist for Jon. Now, the question is, do you want to see Jon fighting Ramsay, or the Others? I'll go with option two. Stannis defeating the Boltons allows the story to move along much faster.

What are the main character traits that were set up for Stannis?

• He is supposedly a Chose One figure, the warrior of light who is meant to stop the Long Night... but we the readers know this claim is most likely false.
• He is unyielding and  just to a fault.
• He puts his duty to the realm above anything else.
• He would sacrifice a child for the sake of the kingdom.
• He is a highly skilled military commander, so much so that Tywin Lannister himself continued to take him seriously even in defeat.
• He would break before he bends.

A satisfying arc for him would include:

• Stannis ordering the burning of Shireen himself, to pay off on his ideas on duty, sacrifice and justice (in the sense that it is "just" to do to his own child what he would have done to Robert's... to do otherwise would make him a hypocrite).
• Stannis winning a sound tactical victory to justify the respect his enemies showed him in the past. The wildlings hardly count, they broke to the cavalry charge and that was that.
• Stannis actually facing the Others before his inevitable fall.

Now, you could argue that George doesn't need to end Stannis's story in a thematically satisfying way. In real life, things often happen randomly, and losing to the Boltons would be realistic. Fair enough. However, keep in mind that:

• All of George's characters had thematically satisfying arcs so far, even those who died unexpectedly.
• If George's plan for Stannis was to kill him in a random way, he could have done that at any time, from the Battle of Blackwater to the attack on Deepwood Motte. He could have frozen to death at the end of Dance.
• The Pink Letter announces Stannis's defeat... and yet the one preview chapter George chose to add at the end of the paperback is a Theon chapter that takes place before the Pink Letter was sent, in which Stannis warns one of his men that he might hear false rumors of his death. I'm not even asking why George would release that to the public if Stannis is dead... why would he have it in the book in the first place? There is no point in seeing the battle if the Pink Letter is true, we already know the result.
• The plot would actually move faster towards the endgame with a Stannis victory than a Bolton victory. Stannis is in charge in the North? Roll in the Others and we're in business! Ramsay's in charge? Well, the real story has to wait while Jon deals with this seconds to midnight side-villain he has no history with.

You might have a problem when the main argument for your theory is that the books will be poorly written. It is 100% feasible for the Others to breach the Wall in only a few chapters, the current set-up is perfect for that. Setting up Ramsay as an intermediary villain for Jon would actually be a deliberate (and puzzling) choice to delay the Others with filler.

That's something I could see working. Ramsay escapes from the battle with his hounds, and we later see Nymeria's pack hunting them down via one of Arya's wolf dreams. I wouldn't say it's necessary to end him this way as opposed to Stannis executing him, but it's neat and satisfying and it wouldn't hijack the story.

I fundamentally disagree on a lot of your points.  Probably no surprise there!

Jon won't even appear much in TWOW.  He'll spend a good portion of it in Ghost.  I'd say there is even a slim chance that the Ramsay's Hounds versus the Direwolves will include Jon being inside Ghost at the time.

All the wars on Westeros between man are set up for one reason.  To weaken man in the face of the Others.  It's to build up that emotional feeling that the battle against the Others is hopeless.  That way the victory will seem more glorious (for the Bards anyway, as we already know the reality of the situation will be sacrifice, sadness and loss).

I think the timelines of the show will roughly match the books because they already roughly match what GRRM was saying about the story 20 years ago.  After ASOS the original plan was the five year gap.  Now a lot of what is happening in AFFC and ADWD would have occurred in that five year gap.  So unfortunately it is filler.  It is GRRM trying to fill pages to make time pass so that the "kids" can train and become a force.  GRRM has even admitted himself that he made the kids too young.  Therefore the pacing was wrong.  Unfortunately he revealed the Others too soon.  It would have been better if the mystery beyond the wall happened in the first few seasons but the Others weren't revealed as being back to the Night's Watch until not long before Dany arrived in Westeros.  Instead you have the Others kicking around doing nothing for five years, whilst mankind in Westeros knows they're back and doing, well nothing about it.

The outline was book four was going to be called ADWD and would deal with Dany's arrival in Westeros and Westeros's reaction to her arrival.  That's effectively what we got last season in the show.  Book five was going to be called TWOW and would deal with the Others invasion and will probably form episodes 1 to 4/5 of the new season.  Book six (concept now scrapped by GRRM, presumably a heavily condensed version rolled a little into ADOS) was given the working title A Time for Wolves.  This book would deal with the aftermath of the Others invasion.  This is likely going to be the last two episodes of the season and will almost certainly draw the Stark versus Lannister feud to its conclusion.

As for the show, they've obviously condensed arcs and merged characters but in relation to the books directly following on from ADWD I think we'll get something like:

Jon wargs into Ghost.  Jon's human body is thrown into an Ice Cell (and therefore remains preserved).

Stannis is defeated and carried/assisted back to the Wall injured.  He may die pretty quickly or he may well end up dying a slow death in a bed at the Wall.  One theory is that he contracts Grayscale but I don't buy it.  He may even not be too bad and actually become mortally wounded from what happens below.

Davos finds Rickon, brings him to Castle Black.  Ravens go out saying Rickon is back and is the true KITN.

Ramsay kills Roose Bolton (I think the show got this from GRRM), probably in an argument over what to do with Rickon / Theon and / or Stannis.

Ramsay leads a force to attack the Wall (nicely ensuring there are loads of corpses in the Gift for the Others advancement).  In the ensuring battle Stannis dies or is on the verge of death and all seems lost.  Mel, with or without Stannis's consent (but definitely with the Queens) burns Shireen.  Stannis remains dead or dies.  Jon is resurrected and is revealed to Mel as Azor.

Ramsay may or may not capture Rickon, or he may just kill him outright.  Either way Jon rallies to Rickon's side or to avenge his death and leads a counter attack with a Wildling army and his former brothers who were, plot wise conveniently, not at Castle Black when Ramsay slaughtered there.  Jon will defeat Ramsay.  Rickon won't make it.  Jon will be proclaimed KITN.

Sansa is the odd one out here.  I wouldn't be shocked if the Vale rescue actually happened with Sansa leading the way (after she found out that Rickon was alive and rode to support his claim), but I also equally wouldn't be shocked to see that happen at Riverrun in a battle against the Others.

As for Dany, she'll bind the Dothraki to her cause in a very similar fashion to the show.  Towards the end of TWOW she'll finally get her shit together and head towards Westeros.  ADOS will then cover the events of S7 and S8 on the show.

[The Coconut God]

5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

All the wars on Westeros between man are set up for one reason.  To weaken man in the face of the Others.  It's to build up that emotional feeling that the battle against the Others is hopeless.  That way the victory will seem more glorious (for the Bards anyway, as we already know the reality of the situation will be sacrifice, sadness and loss).

We fundamentally disagree indeed! 

One of the overarching themes of the series is that mistakes have real, hard consequences. We saw that with Ned, with Robb, with Cersei, with Tywin, and with every other character to some extent. Fighting among themselves while ignoring the Others is the biggest mistake the Seven Kingdoms have ever made, and by George's own narrative rules it should cost them dearly.

If this all boils down to setting up a "bigger comeback", the ending will be horribly trite. And not only that, it would send a very silly message. Instead of "Weigh your choices well and be mindful of the future, for our world is more fragile than we think", the moral of the series would be "It doesn't matter how much we fuck up, the human spirit always prevails! Yay!". I highly, highly doubt this is what George has in mind.

There's a lot to unpack in your predictions, but I will try to focus only on the more important stuff. The overall problem imho is that you are applying an easy "show logic" to everything. It's all about big plot moments, with very little tying them together in a sensible way.

7 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Jon's human body is thrown into an Ice Cell (and therefore remains preserved).

See, this one is convenience central. You have your Big Moment™ in mind (Jon is revived by mistake when Shireen is burned to resurrect Stannis), so circumstances must bend themselves backwards to make it happen.

It doesn't make any sense *in story* for Jon's body to be preserved. If he's dead, his corpse would either be left there to rot (if a fight ensues and Castle Black is abandoned), or someone is going to burn it, because pretty much everyone there knows that corpses are supposed to be burned or they will come back as wights.

The only way we can have a Jon resurrection later in the story is if he's still alive, but comatose, and if that is the case, there is a high chance that he will be taken away from Castle Black because: a. things are likely to become hectic there, and b. there is no trained maester at Castel Black to tend to his wounds. Since George bothered with extra world building for Karhold, I would name that as a likely destination.

Whether or not he wargs into Ghost during this coma is debatable, but odds are we aren't going to get many, if any, Ghost chapters because: a. It would kind of ruin the tension if we know what's going on with him, and b. there's only so much you can do with an animal PoV; Ghost-Jon would either be locked in a kennel or roaming the woods, certainly not prowling around castle people while they are having interesting conversations; furthermore, if there is too much of Jon's consciousness inside the wolf, we would start asking ourselves why he doesn't just write "Hi, I'm Jon" in the snow and start communicating with people.

7 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Stannis is defeated and carried/assisted back to the Wall injured.  He may die pretty quickly or he may well end up dying a slow death in a bed at the Wall. 

Here you are just complicating the narrative without really going anywhere with it.

What's the point of Stannis going through his entire arc in ADwD only to achieve nothing and return to where he was initially? If George wanted a desperate Stannis at the Wall, he could have made his losses in the fight with the wildlings much greater, perhaps worked in a group of traitors who attempt to kill him to secure their own pardons, and Bam!, an injured Stannis is ready to sacrifice Shireen at the Wall.

Admit it, the only reason your scenario makes sense in your mind is because you are trying to force it down a track that mirrors what happened in the show. It's not something that grows organically from the situation, let alone George's foreshadowing.

7 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Ramsay kills Roose Bolton (I think the show got this from GRRM), probably in an argument over what to do with Rickon / Theon and / or Stannis.

The big problem with any Bolton in-fighting is that we no longer have a PoV at Winterfell. Even if it happens, we wouldn't get to experience it like in the show, it would have to be retroactively explained, so I don't really see what reason George would have to do it.

And before you're going to say Asha, no, Ramsay doesn't have Asha. Keep in mind he believes that Jon is harboring Theon, so if he had her he would have mentioned it in the letter, if only to shake Theon up and maybe make him come back and try to save his sister. Ditto for Davos and Rickon. He mentioned the spearwives, so he certainly would have mentioned Jon's brother.

The distribution of PoVs alone suggests that if we see Winterfell after the Battle of Ice, that means Stannis is in control of it.

8 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Ramsay leads a force to attack the Wall (nicely ensuring there are loads of corpses in the Gift for the Others advancement).  In the ensuring battle Stannis dies or is on the verge of death and all seems lost.  Mel, with or without Stannis's consent (but definitely with the Queens) burns Shireen.  Stannis remains dead or dies.  Jon is resurrected and is revealed to Mel as Azor.

Again, why not have Stannis remain at the Wall from the start? Why not have all this happen earlier in Dance? Your scenario assumes that George wrote an entirely pointless loop in the story (Stannis's march and the Battle of Ice) only to return to where he started.

8 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Ramsay may or may not capture Rickon, or he may just kill him outright.  Either way Jon rallies to Rickon's side or to avenge his death and leads a counter attack with a Wildling army and his former brothers who were, plot wise conveniently, not at Castle Black when Ramsay slaughtered there.  Jon will defeat Ramsay.  Rickon won't make it.  Jon will be proclaimed KITN.

Or you can just accept that the show did the Battle of Ice twice because Dany's story and Jon's story were unsynced and they had decided against using George's not yet finalized and potentially controversial solution to bring them together - which I still maintain will be the Exodus.

Even if I am wrong about that particular plot development, they could have decided to delay the invasion of the Others by a season or two because with all the snow, CGI and prosthetics required it would have been considerably more expensive to shoot.

You have no solid ground to try to force a version of the show plot line into the books. We already know for a fact that D&D were willing to deviate a lot from the books in the later seasons.

But this is probably your core misconception:

8 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

unfortunately it is filler

George had to restructure his story several times, yes. But that doesn't mean he filled the books with nonsense just to pass the time.

I think it is downright absurd to assume that there is no deliberate set-up for the final books in Feast and Dance. I guarantee you that George knew more about his plans for Winds and Dance when he wrote these books than he did when he wrote that outline 25 years ago (an outline he already publicly stated doesn't count). If you're going to assume they're filler, you are going into your predictions blind! It's no wonder that all you can come up with is a convoluted replica of the show's story line.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

We fundamentally disagree indeed! 

One of the overarching themes of the series is that mistakes have real, hard consequences. We saw that with Ned, with Robb, with Cersei, with Tywin, and with every other character to some extent. Fighting among themselves while ignoring the Others is the biggest mistake the Seven Kingdoms have ever made, and by George's own narrative rules it should cost them dearly.

If this all boils down to setting up a "bigger comeback", the ending will be horribly trite. And not only that, it would send a very silly message. Instead of "Weigh your choices well and be mindful of the future, for our world is more fragile than we think", the moral of the series would be "It doesn't matter how much we fuck up, the human spirit always prevails! Yay!". I highly, highly doubt this is what George has in mind.

There's a lot to unpack in your predictions, but I will try to focus only on the more important stuff. The overall problem imho is that you are applying an easy "show logic" to everything. It's all about big plot moments, with very little tying them together in a sensible way.

See, this one is convenience central. You have your Big Moment™ in mind (Jon is revived by mistake when Shireen is burned to resurrect Stannis), so circumstances must bend themselves backwards to make it happen.

It doesn't make any sense *in story* for Jon's body to be preserved. If he's dead, his corpse would either be left there to rot (if a fight ensues and Castle Black is abandoned), or someone is going to burn it, because pretty much everyone there knows that corpses are supposed to be burned or they will come back as wights.

The only way we can have a Jon resurrection later in the story is if he's still alive, but comatose, and if that is the case, there is a high chance that he will be taken away from Castle Black because: a. things are likely to become hectic there, and b. there is no trained maester at Castel Black to tend to his wounds. Since George bothered with extra world building for Karhold, I would name that as a likely destination.

Whether or not he wargs into Ghost during this coma is debatable, but odds are we aren't going to get many, if any, Ghost chapters because: a. It would kind of ruin the tension if we know what's going on with him, and b. there's only so much you can do with an animal PoV; Ghost-Jon would either be locked in a kennel or roaming the woods, certainly not prowling around castle people while they are having interesting conversations; furthermore, if there is too much of Jon's consciousness inside the wolf, we would start asking ourselves why he doesn't just write "Hi, I'm Jon" in the snow and start communicating with people.

Here you are just complicating the narrative without really going anywhere with it.

What's the point of Stannis going through his entire arc in ADwD only to achieve nothing and return to where he was initially? If George wanted a desperate Stannis at the Wall, he could have made his losses in the fight with the wildlings much greater, perhaps worked in a group of traitors who attempt to kill him to secure their own pardons, and Bam!, an injured Stannis is ready to sacrifice Shireen at the Wall.

Admit it, the only reason your scenario makes sense in your mind is because you are trying to force it down a track that mirrors what happened in the show. It's not something that grows organically from the situation, let alone George's foreshadowing.

The big problem with any Bolton in-fighting is that we no longer have a PoV at Winterfell. Even if it happens, we wouldn't get to experience it like in the show, it would have to be retroactively explained, so I don't really see what reason George would have to do it.

And before you're going to say Asha, no, Ramsay doesn't have Asha. Keep in mind he believes that Jon is harboring Theon, so if he had her he would have mentioned it in the letter, if only to shake Theon up and maybe make him come back and try to save his sister. Ditto for Davos and Rickon. He mentioned the spearwives, so he certainly would have mentioned Jon's brother.

The distribution of PoVs alone suggests that if we see Winterfell after the Battle of Ice, that means Stannis is in control of it.

Again, why not have Stannis remain at the Wall from the start? Why not have all this happen earlier in Dance? Your scenario assumes that George wrote an entirely pointless loop in the story (Stannis's march and the Battle of Ice) only to return to where he started.

Or you can just accept that the show did the Battle of Ice twice because Dany's story and Jon's story were unsynced and they had decided against using George's not yet finalized and potentially controversial solution to bring them together - which I still maintain will be the Exodus.

Even if I am wrong about that particular plot development, they could have decided to delay the invasion of the Others by a season or two because with all the snow, CGI and prosthetics required it would have been considerably more expensive to shoot.

You have no solid ground to try to force a version of the show plot line into the books. We already know for a fact that D&D were willing to deviate a lot from the books in the later seasons.

But this is probably your core misconception:

George had to restructure his story several times, yes. But that doesn't mean he filled the books with nonsense just to pass the time.

I think it is downright absurd to assume that there is no deliberate set-up for the final books in Feast and Dance. I guarantee you that George knew more about his plans for Winds and Dance when he wrote these books than he did when he wrote that outline 25 years ago (an outline he already publicly stated doesn't count). If you're going to assume they're filler, you are going into your predictions blind! It's no wonder that all you can come up with is a convoluted replica of the show's story line.

I'm done with the discussion, mainly because of your snarky approach to debating.  The last thing I'll say is it is highly unlikely either of us will be proven right or wrong, simply because we won't get the books.

[The Coconut God]

Just now, Ser Gareth said:

I'm done with the discussion, mainly because of your snarky approach to debating. 

Hey, snark is my best response to stubbornness! 

But fair enough, I can't change your mind by force, no more than you can change mine.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/13/2019 at 5:33 PM, Ser Gareth said:

So basically anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot?  Interesting debating style...

On this issue? Yes because it's true.

To think that Arianne and Euron (and the two regions that make them powerful) aren't important to the story of the Seven Kingdoms, much less the overall Song of Ice and Fire...

...I mean I wonder are you reading the same story as I am or are you just that clueless.

On 3/13/2019 at 5:33 PM, Ser Gareth said:

The human conflicts in Westeros look likely to serve one purpose.

One purpose only? Likely one purpose only?

Mkay.

On 3/13/2019 at 5:33 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Weaken the realm of men so that mankind looks doomed in the the war against the Others.  That will make the victory over the Others more heroic.

Need I remind you that this is not Lord of the Rings. Nor is this Star Wars.

What about this story makes you think that it's all going to come down to a big battle between the forces of good vs. evil where good triumphs over evil because reasons. 

Like I alluded to in my previous post: "if you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

If the story we have already gotten is any indicator, the Others (or, alternatively, the bad guys) will win eventually, everyone dies and the whole story ends up being one gigantic cautionary tale. Think of the Bible meets Pompeii.

After all, the Doom of Valyria was real. Who is to say an ice version doesn't happen?

And I made that up in ten minutes. Think of what Martin could do in ten hours.

On 3/13/2019 at 5:33 PM, Ser Gareth said:

The Dornish - will back (f)Aegon.  A war will ensue that they'll lose, thus removing precious numbers for the war against the Others.

Ironborn - Still very much active in the show so (regrettably) probably do have a part to play.  I fucking hate Euron in the books with a passion.  Such a crappy unbelievable character and totally against the style of the world that got me initially hooked.  The exception here is Victarion, who is a plot device to bring Dany her ships to take her to Westeros.

Faceless Men - They'll be some kind of irrelevant subplot in the books, but their main purpose was to provide Arya with certain skills.

Iron Bank - Are in the show, so there will probably be something in it (one ending I saw mooted years ago was that the Iron Bank would hire a faceless man to kill the ruler of Westeros as means of a punishment against non payment of debt, only that ruler would be someone innocent).

Faith Militant - Their arc in the show is over and I see it ending the same way in the books.

Actually, you're wrong. Very wrong. If the Dornish are all killed, you aren't simply losing fighters for the war against the Others. You are giving the Others more soldiers.

So, given that the fact that the Dornish are making their entrance this late in the game, someone can make a point by saying that the Dornish can't lose. Because, if they win (or at least, don't die), they can actually help save the world. If you want your fairy tale happy ending where the hero saves the day and everyone learns their lesson, Princess Arianne (i.e. the exotic princess provides the heroes with an eleventh hour boon) and the Dornishmen are your bread and butter.

If the Dornish do lose, it makes the whole affair that much more tragic. Like how the Red Wedding made the defeat of Robb Stark that much more tragic.

The Dornish may be looking like they are backing fAegon now. But what happens when Daenerys shows up with three dragons, an army of 500k+ and proof that the Dornish (or rather, the Martells) owe her more support as Viserys' heir than they do Aegon, regardless of whether he is real or not? What happens if Aegon actually does turn out to be fake? What happens when/if the truth about Quentyn's death is revealed?

And on top of ALL of that, we still have these lingering mysteries that all seem to be coming out of Dorne.

For one, when the First Men came to Westeros, they first settled in Dorne? How can the Children of the Forest say they didn't care when they literally moved heaven and earth to try and destroy Dorne? They can destroy a third of Dorne but they can't destroy the Neck? Interesting. And I can't shake the feeling that there are, in fact, weirwoods in the Red Mountains.

And then we have the mystery of the Tower of Joy which has been dangling in front of us like a carrot on a stick since the first few Eddard chapters in the first book. Thanks to the show, we have a pretty damn good idea of what happened. But we don't really know. Why did Ned take the Tower of Joy apart piece-by-piece? What does Howland Reed know? Why were three Kingsguard still there when Rhaella and her children were on Dragonstone in danger?

And then we have the mysteries surrounding House Dayne.

• What is the real reason Ashara Dayne killed herself? Because there has been way too much speculation -- among the characters within the book -- for it to all just be about how her heart was broken.
• If Ashara Dayne did, in fact, kill herself, where is her body? Her body is said to have never been found but how? The Torrentine is not an ocean, it's a river. So she's not going to get automatically washed away into the sea. As a matter of fact, if Balon Greyjoy's body can be found, there is no reason why Ashara Dayne's body vanished.
• Why do the Daynes uplift one of their members by calling them the Sword of the Morning? Why is the Valyrian steel sword of House Dayne called Dawn...when the last war against the Others is known as the "Long Night" and the "War for the Dawn?"
• Wait, Dawn isn't made up of Valyrian steel is it? No, it looks pale and shiny like milkglass. Gee, I wonder who else wields weapons that look like milkglass. Oh yeah, the Others? Why? What's the connection if there is one? And did the metal used to make Dawn really fall out of the sky?
• Why do the Daynes -- who are said to be First Men -- look so much like Valyrians?
• Why did Eddard Stark go out of his way to take Dawn back to Starfall when he had the dead body of his sister and a newborn baby to take for? As a matter of fact, why did Eddard Stark entomb the bodies of his own bannermen when he could've just sent for them back home? Oh yeah, because he was busy travelling to Starfall. Why? Because of his love affair with Ashara Dayne?
• Why does Eddard Stark never think of Ashara if they were so much in love? Weird considering that Barristan thinks of her all the time? Hell, even Catelyn thinks of Ashara more than Eddard does.
• And what is the point of Eddard "Ned" Dayne? Why is he so important? And yes he is important because GRRM has stated that he was disappointed that he couldn't use the five-year-gap to make Ned Dayne older.

Arianne Martell is the future ruling Princess of Dorne and a confidant of her father, the current ruling Prince of Dorne. Areo Hotah, their chief of security if you will, is currently trying to deal with a dangerously cryptic Dayne...who calls himself the Sword of the Evening.

On 3/13/2019 at 5:33 PM, Ser Gareth said:

As for adaptation, there was either nothing to adapt or pointless travelogues.  Even the excerpts we've had for TWOW are meandering to say the least.  Two Arianne chapters of her getting nowhere fast.

In the first sample chapter, she goes from Sunspear to Ghost Hill to a boat in the middle of the Sea of Dorne. In the second chapter, she goes from the boat to the Weeping Town through the Rainwood and visits two different castles--Mistwood and Griffin's Roost. And at the end of that second chapter, she decides to go to Storm's End.

Nowhere indeed.

Where is Arianne Martell likely to end up? King's Landing. So what if it's taking her a while to get there. We haven't seen the Stormlands at all since A Clash of Kings; we know nothing of the geography, the weather or the culture which informs us on how the people there fight. And how the Stormlanders fight is important because...

1. They are the bannermen of the Baratheons, currently headed by Tommen
2. Aegon is going to have to deal with all of them before he gets to King's Landing. If he wanted to skip around them, then he should've just dropped anchor in the Crownlands.
3. Stannis is going to battle the Boltons with men from the Stormlands.

Plus, warfare in the Stormlands makes Stannis' situation even more dire.

And we all know why the weather is so important. It's already been established that it rarely snows in the Stormlands because of how humid it is. So, when we start hearing news that the Mistwood got 2 feet of snow last night, people can be all like "WTF?!" and it will mean something.

Voila!, what do you know? It's not so easy to write off Arianne Martell and Dorne off now is it?

And I haven't even gotten to how important Euron and the Ironborn, the Faceless Men, the Iron Bank, the Faith of the Seven and the Citadel are.

[BalerionTheCat]

7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

To think that Arianne and Euron (and the two regions that make them powerful) aren't important to the story of the Seven Kingdoms, much less the overall Song of Ice and Fire...

...I mean I wonder are you reading the same story as I am or are you just that clueless.

When I read the early chapters of the Ironborns, I found them boring. All losers, with the king of losers in Balon. Not much better to say about the Dornish and Arianne. The Sand Snakes were spicy, but nothing else. Oberyn made for just one thing...

But all changed with Euron. He doesn't belong to the petty story of the 1st 3 books, the war for the IT. He is a player in the big war for mankind's survival. With stakes higher than sitting on an ugly iron chair. Maybe as high as becoming a god himself. Euron has his place in this war between gods, forces, elements, whatever, between Ice and Fire.

I don't know what is the purpose of the Dornish in the books. But not knowing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm waiting and have confidence in GRRM for having great ideas for them too.

[Cas Stark]

11 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

On this issue? Yes because it's true.

To think that Arianne and Euron (and the two regions that make them powerful) aren't important to the story of the Seven Kingdoms, much less the overall Song of Ice and Fire...

...I mean I wonder are you reading the same story as I am or are you just that clueless.

One purpose only? Likely one purpose only?

Mkay.

Need I remind you that this is not Lord of the Rings. Nor is this Star Wars.

What about this story makes you think that it's all going to come down to a big battle between the forces of good vs. evil where good triumphs over evil because reasons. 

Like I alluded to in my previous post: "if you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

If the story we have already gotten is any indicator, the Others (or, alternatively, the bad guys) will win eventually, everyone dies and the whole story ends up being one gigantic cautionary tale. Think of the Bible meets Pompeii.

After all, the Doom of Valyria was real. Who is to say an ice version doesn't happen?

And I made that up in ten minutes. Think of what Martin could do in ten hours.

Actually, you're wrong. Very wrong. If the Dornish are all killed, you aren't simply losing fighters for the war against the Others. You are giving the Others more soldiers.

So, given that the fact that the Dornish are making their entrance this late in the game, someone can make a point by saying that the Dornish can't lose. Because, if they win (or at least, don't die), they can actually help save the world. If you want your fairy tale happy ending where the hero saves the day and everyone learns their lesson, Princess Arianne (i.e. the exotic princess provides the heroes with an eleventh hour boon) and the Dornishmen are your bread and butter.

If the Dornish do lose, it makes the whole affair that much more tragic. Like how the Red Wedding made the defeat of Robb Stark that much more tragic.

The Dornish may be looking like they are backing fAegon now. But what happens when Daenerys shows up with three dragons, an army of 500k+ and proof that the Dornish (or rather, the Martells) owe her more support as Viserys' heir than they do Aegon, regardless of whether he is real or not? What happens if Aegon actually does turn out to be fake? What happens when/if the truth about Quentyn's death is revealed?

And on top of ALL of that, we still have these lingering mysteries that all seem to be coming out of Dorne.

For one, when the First Men came to Westeros, they first settled in Dorne? How can the Children of the Forest say they didn't care when they literally moved heaven and earth to try and destroy Dorne? They can destroy a third of Dorne but they can't destroy the Neck? Interesting. And I can't shake the feeling that there are, in fact, weirwoods in the Red Mountains.

And then we have the mystery of the Tower of Joy which has been dangling in front of us like a carrot on a stick since the first few Eddard chapters in the first book. Thanks to the show, we have a pretty damn good idea of what happened. But we don't really know. Why did Ned take the Tower of Joy apart piece-by-piece? What does Howland Reed know? Why were three Kingsguard still there when Rhaella and her children were on Dragonstone in danger?

And then we have the mysteries surrounding House Dayne.

• What is the real reason Ashara Dayne killed herself? Because there has been way too much speculation -- among the characters within the book -- for it to all just be about how her heart was broken.
• If Ashara Dayne did, in fact, kill herself, where is her body? Her body is said to have never been found but how? The Torrentine is not an ocean, it's a river. So she's not going to get automatically washed away into the sea. As a matter of fact, if Balon Greyjoy's body can be found, there is no reason why Ashara Dayne's body vanished.
• Why do the Daynes uplift one of their members by calling them the Sword of the Morning? Why is the Valyrian steel sword of House Dayne called Dawn...when the last war against the Others is known as the "Long Night" and the "War for the Dawn?"
• Wait, Dawn isn't made up of Valyrian steel is it? No, it looks pale and shiny like milkglass. Gee, I wonder who else wields weapons that look like milkglass. Oh yeah, the Others? Why? What's the connection if there is one? And did the metal used to make Dawn really fall out of the sky?
• Why do the Daynes -- who are said to be First Men -- look so much like Valyrians?
• Why did Eddard Stark go out of his way to take Dawn back to Starfall when he had the dead body of his sister and a newborn baby to take for? As a matter of fact, why did Eddard Stark entomb the bodies of his own bannermen when he could've just sent for them back home? Oh yeah, because he was busy travelling to Starfall. Why? Because of his love affair with Ashara Dayne?
• Why does Eddard Stark never think of Ashara if they were so much in love? Weird considering that Barristan thinks of her all the time? Hell, even Catelyn thinks of Ashara more than Eddard does.
• And what is the point of Eddard "Ned" Dayne? Why is he so important? And yes he is important because GRRM has stated that he was disappointed that he couldn't use the five-year-gap to make Ned Dayne older.

Arianne Martell is the future ruling Princess of Dorne and a confidant of her father, the current ruling Prince of Dorne. Areo Hotah, their chief of security if you will, is currently trying to deal with a dangerously cryptic Dayne...who calls himself the Sword of the Evening.

In the first sample chapter, she goes from Sunspear to Ghost Hill to a boat in the middle of the Sea of Dorne. In the second chapter, she goes from the boat to the Weeping Town through the Rainwood and visits two different castles--Mistwood and Griffin's Roost. And at the end of that second chapter, she decides to go to Storm's End.

Nowhere indeed.

Where is Arianne Martell likely to end up? King's Landing. So what if it's taking her a while to get there. We haven't seen the Stormlands at all since A Clash of Kings; we know nothing of the geography, the weather or the culture which informs us on how the people there fight. And how the Stormlanders fight is important because...

1. They are the bannermen of the Baratheons, currently headed by Tommen
2. Aegon is going to have to deal with all of them before he gets to King's Landing. If he wanted to skip around them, then he should've just dropped anchor in the Crownlands.
3. Stannis is going to battle the Boltons with men from the Stormlands.

Plus, warfare in the Stormlands makes Stannis' situation even more dire.

And we all know why the weather is so important. It's already been established that it rarely snows in the Stormlands because of how humid it is. So, when we start hearing news that the Mistwood got 2 feet of snow last night, people can be all like "WTF?!" and it will mean something.

Voila!, what do you know? It's not so easy to write off Arianne Martell and Dorne off now is it?

And I haven't even gotten to how important Euron and the Ironborn, the Faceless Men, the Iron Bank, the Faith of the Seven and the Citadel are.

I'd say the very fact that Arianne isn't in the show and that they killed Doran and the Sand Snakes is strong evidence they were one of the author's tangents that he created to help fill the 5 year gap and that no, they don't have any significant impact on the story or the end.

I also have a sad feeling that those of us who have been waiting to see the various mysteries related to House Dayne are going to have been waiting in vain.  The author seems to have forgotten this particular set of bread crumbs, and again, none of it is really in the show.  I can't remember, have they even mentioned Starfall? Other that the flashback scene where ya know, Dayne is fighting with two swords, LOL, it doesn't seem this is going to turn out as important as many thought.

The Others will definitely not win, if Martin wants to do something 'different' he will have the two fight to a draw and then make another pact and the Others will go back to the land of always winter.  But, I suspect the Others will lose and disappear along with magic and dragons.

At this point, I feel about 70% sure I will deeply dislike the ending and am only 'looking forward to it' as a way to close the book on this whole series.

[Rose of Red Lake]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe as high as becoming a god himself.

You think that's literal?

 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You think that's literal?

We're only speaking about the books here. But yes.

TWoIaF has a legend about the son of the Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of Night:

Quote

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light [...] For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Maybe this is only crazy stuff by fanatic religious. But people of this time knew their business. They built 5 impressive forts that are facts beyond doubt. I believe this legend is fitting with what we live now. GRRM can't finish the story with a good king/queen. And everyone knowing that in a generation or two another Aerys or Joffrey or Maegor will bleed his people. GRRM must have a "long term" solution.

Now, there is this promised prince. A promise by the gods, I believe. A prince, it would seem, the son of Ice and Fire. Another son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light? A prince to bring back peace and plenty, to end the endless suffering after the 1st LN?

I believe Euron knows a lot about what is coming. And he intends to fill this job of God-on-Earth.

[Rose of Red Lake]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe this is only crazy stuff by fanatic religious. But people of this time knew their business. They built 5 impressive forts that are facts beyond doubt. I believe this legend is fitting with what we live now. GRRM can't finish the story with a good king/queen. And everyone knowing that in a generation or two another Aerys or Joffrey or Maegor will bleed his people. GRRM must have a "long term" solution.

 Now, there is this promised prince. A promise by the gods, I believe. A prince, it would seem, the son of Ice and Fire. Another son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light? A prince to bring back peace and plenty, to end the endless suffering after the 1st LN?

I believe Euron knows a lot about what is coming. And he intends to fill this job of God-on-Earth.

Whenever I heard about gods-on-earth, I think GRRM was inspired by Zelazny's Lord of Light, in which the people who ruled the planet weren't literal gods, they were just humans who were perceived that way because they had advanced magic/technological knowledge (same thing) and the people they ruled (dominated) didn't have it.

I think its important to note whenever people think they're gods, they're not. They just might be perceived that way by people who don't know about the magical trick. And as for readers, we're not uneducated peasants staring slack-jawed at the people in the story. We should know they're not literally divine beings. But yes, Euron might be trying to do get away with that.

[BlackLightning]

18 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

When I read the early chapters of the Ironborns, I found them boring. All losers, with the king of losers in Balon. Not much better to say about the Dornish and Arianne. The Sand Snakes were spicy, but nothing else. Oberyn made for just one thing...

But all changed with Euron. He doesn't belong to the petty story of the 1st 3 books, the war for the IT. He is a player in the big war for mankind's survival. With stakes higher than sitting on an ugly iron chair. Maybe as high as becoming a god himself. Euron has his place in this war between gods, forces, elements, whatever, between Ice and Fire.

I don't know what is the purpose of the Dornish in the books. But not knowing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm waiting and have confidence in GRRM for having great ideas for them too.

I still think the Ironborn are losers. But Theon has always been interesting (he's getting even more interesting) and Asha has some really good potential.

I think Euron will eventually take the Iron Throne but, unlike every other human villain, that's not going to be his endgame. We still don't even know exactly what he wants or what he is planning for.

13 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'd say the very fact that Arianne isn't in the show and that they killed Doran and the Sand Snakes is strong evidence they were one of the author's tangents that he created to help fill the 5 year gap and that no, they don't have any significant impact on the story or the end.

You do realize that we are talking about the same showrunners who said: "Creatively it made sense because we wanted it to happen."

Which in other words means, "We Want this One Particular Thing to Happen so We are Going to Try to Make It Make Sense Even if It Doesn't."

These are the same showrunners who:

• decided to make the Starks much less magical (and less important) because....reasons? Bran isn't the only skinchanger in the books. Bran is, by far, the most powerful but all his siblings are skinchangers...yes, even Sansa. She hasn't quite caught up yet but she will
• completely changed the point of Ellaria Sand's character because they love Indira Varma and Indira Varma is too old to play Arianne (they actually said that)
• whitewashed the entire Lannister family. Cersei is a borderline megalomaniac in the books who hides behind motherhood and Tyrion is the ultimate "Nice Guy" who thinks he's entitled to the entire world three times over just because he is "nice."
• ruined the character arcs of Stannis, Sansa, Littlefinger, Brienne, Theon, Roose Bolton and Jon Snow in season 5 because they loved Ramsay so much

Not all of their decisions have been bad. I love what they did with Olenna and Margaery Tyrell. But I doubt GRRM would treat Dorne the way the showrunners did.

The story of the Martell family has been a thing since A Game of Thrones. Doran and Arianne Martell were mentioned multiple times in that book and got a full run-down in Tyrion's last POV chapter in A Game of Thrones.

14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I also have a sad feeling that those of us who have been waiting to see the various mysteries related to House Dayne are going to have been waiting in vain.  The author seems to have forgotten this particular set of bread crumbs, and again, none of it is really in the show.  I can't remember, have they even mentioned Starfall? Other that the flashback scene where ya know, Dayne is fighting with two swords, LOL, it doesn't seem this is going to turn out as important as many thought.

No, no one says anything or has said about Dorne. If it didn't revolve around the Dornish thirst for vengeance against the Lannister, it didn't exist. I like the idea of Jaime going to Dorne to "save" Myrcella. Apparently, the creators thought their piss-poor adaptation of the Sand Snakes were a better idea than entangling the Martell children with Daenerys Targaryen and/or turning Myrcella against her mother.

In general, 90% of all the magic, prophecy and high fantasy elements of the series was been choked out of the TV show. Why the creators did it? I don't know. To make matters worse, they didn't even chose to adapt the more grounded elements of the series such as the Citadel. Which was absolutely insane: Sam left the Wall just before the story there climaxed in season 5, spent all of season 6 trying to get to Oldtown...but then when he gets there in season 7, what does he do? Clean dishes, empty chamberpots, "cure" greyscale and borrow a library book.

Anyways, because Dorne is a place of prophecy and mystery and magic, Dorne didn't become important. Which is sad because Dorne is the fire to the ice of the North.

[T and A]

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I still think the Ironborn are losers. But Theon has always been interesting (he's getting even more interesting) and Asha has some really good potential.

I think Euron will eventually take the Iron Throne but, unlike every other human villain, that's not going to be his endgame. We still don't even know exactly what he wants or what he is planning for.

You do realize that we are talking about the same showrunners who said: "Creatively it made sense because we wanted it to happen."

Which in other words means, "We Want this One Particular Thing to Happen so We are Going to Try to Make It Make Sense Even if It Doesn't."

These are the same showrunners who:

• decided to make the Starks much less magical (and less important) because....reasons? Bran isn't the only skinchanger in the books. Bran is, by far, the most powerful but all his siblings are skinchangers...yes, even Sansa. She hasn't quite caught up yet but she will
• completely changed the point of Ellaria Sand's character because they love Indira Varma and Indira Varma is too old to play Arianne (they actually said that)
• whitewashed the entire Lannister family. Cersei is a borderline megalomaniac in the books who hides behind motherhood and Tyrion is the ultimate "Nice Guy" who thinks he's entitled to the entire world three times over just because he is "nice."
• ruined the character arcs of Stannis, Sansa, Littlefinger, Brienne, Theon, Roose Bolton and Jon Snow in season 5 because they loved Ramsay so much

Not all of their decisions have been bad. I love what they did with Olenna and Margaery Tyrell. But I doubt GRRM would treat Dorne the way the showrunners did.

The story of the Martell family has been a thing since A Game of Thrones. Doran and Arianne Martell were mentioned multiple times in that book and got a full run-down in Tyrion's last POV chapter in A Game of Thrones.

No, no one says anything or has said about Dorne. If it didn't revolve around the Dornish thirst for vengeance against the Lannister, it didn't exist. I like the idea of Jaime going to Dorne to "save" Myrcella. Apparently, the creators thought their piss-poor adaptation of the Sand Snakes were a better idea than entangling the Martell children with Daenerys Targaryen and/or turning Myrcella against her mother.

In general, 90% of all the magic, prophecy and high fantasy elements of the series was been choked out of the TV show. Why the creators did it? I don't know. To make matters worse, they didn't even chose to adapt the more grounded elements of the series such as the Citadel. Which was absolutely insane: Sam left the Wall just before the story there climaxed in season 5, spent all of season 6 trying to get to Oldtown...but then when he gets there in season 7, what does he do? Clean dishes, empty chamberpots, "cure" greyscale and borrow a library book.

Anyways, because Dorne is a place of prophecy and mystery and magic, Dorne didn't become important. Which is sad because Dorne is the fire to the ice of the North.

I think, as many have already said, Dorne is solely introduced to give Aegon an army. With the fall of Aegon, Dorne will loose too. Since the show did not introduce Aegon, they killed of (rather stupidly) the whole Dorne plot and its characters. 

[btfu806]

10 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think Euron will eventually take the Iron Throne but, unlike every other human villain, that's not going to be his endgame. We still don't even know exactly what he wants or what he is planning for.

I know we all are supposed to hate books 4 and 5 (I think they are just fine, but not great). To me, Euron is what made book four interesting (and how truly insane Cersei is). The one thing I have really enjoyed about Euron is that he appears to be a simple character, just wanting power. But I think deep down there is a lot more there. I think he has even bigger/greater aspirations than that. Hopefully his character development really comes through.

[The Coconut God]

46 minutes ago, T and A said:

I think, as many have already said, Dorne is solely introduced to give Aegon an army. With the fall of Aegon, Dorne will loose too. Since the show did not introduce Aegon, they killed of (rather stupidly) the whole Dorne plot and its characters. 

It would be more accurate to say that Aegon was introduced to give Dorne a reason to restart the conflict in Westeros.

The people who dislike Feast seem to ignore that Dorne and the Iron Islands were there from the start and their ruling families were clearly intended to be more or less on par with the Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc, as evidenced by the fact that the Targaryen heir married a Martell and the Greyjoys started a rebellion which took all the other houses working together to quell. Leaving these two kingdoms out of the story, or minimizing their involvement, would have left behind massive plot holes.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

4 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

It would be more accurate to say that Aegon was introduced to give Dorne a reason to restart the conflict in Westeros.

The people who dislike Feast seem to ignore that Dorne and the Iron Islands were there from the start and their ruling families were clearly intended to be more or less on par with the Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc, as evidenced by the fact that the Targaryen heir married a Martell and the Greyjoys started a rebellion which took all the other houses working together to quell. Leaving these two kingdoms out of the story, or minimizing their involvement, would have left behind massive plot holes.

Not sure on all the reasoning for Aegon/FAegon's introduction, but one reason may be not so much a reason to restart conflict in Westeros, but more so to provide a reason for Doran to shift his plans from Dany to the supposed son of his sister.  Another reason for the Aegon plot is to feed into the baby switch and imposter scenarios, who is real and who isn't and who knows that, LOL  Granted, how it's done is another manner. 

I do agree on both Dorne and The Iron Islands and their politics being a part of the story from the beginning.  Jon Snow admires Daeron The Young Dragon and his adventures in Dorne.  Theon is a ward in Winterfell as a result of the Iron Islanders penchant for rebellion lead by Theon's family.  Arya names her direwolf after one of the founders of the reigning political dynasty in Dorne, and we are told about it.  I think both regions get a bad wrap from AFFC, not even really from ADWD.  AFFC were many new POVs, most of them Iron Born and Dornish.  Add in a mentally deteriorating Cersei, and that book itself seems so different from the other ones, even ADWD.  The way the split was done on the last two may figure into the bad rap those two books get. 

 

[The Coconut God]

21 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Not sure on all the reasoning for Aegon/FAegon's introduction, but one reason may be not so much a reason to restart conflict in Westeros, but more so to provide a reason for Doran to shift his plans from Dany to the supposed son of his sister.  Another reason for the Aegon plot is to feed into the baby switch and imposter scenarios, who is real and who isn't and who knows that, LOL  Granted, how it's done is another manner. 

There are multiple possibilities, of course, but I believe George wanted the South to be as destabilized as the North by the time the Others get there, and Aegon's arrival is his means of achieving this, primarily by drawing Dorne (and perhaps some of the Tyrells further down the line) into a conflict with the Crown. If you want to go further down the rabbit hole, the Dornish plot line will have two other major consequences:

Spoiler

1. Quentin's death sets up Mellario Martell as an important enemy for Danyin Winds.

We know that Doran sent Andrey Dalt to Norvos, purportedly as punishment for taking part in Arianne's plot. I believe that he was, in fact, Doran's informant, and he was sent there with a different purpose: to tell Mellario about Quentin's mission and get her involved in helping him and Dany return to Westeros. Imagine her rage when she finds out that her son lost his life to Dany's dragons. Surely she will seek revenge...

My theory is that her actions will cause Dany enough pain to make her lose her temper and burn down Norvos (whether on purpose or partly by accident remains to be seen), which in turn will swing the Braavosi elections for a new Sealord firmly against her, setting up Braavos as Dany's main enemy in Dream.

2. Sending the Dornish armies away to join Aegon will leave Dorne itself exposed, making it easier for the ironborn to attack them.

Euron will raid the Water Gardens and capture Doran to deliver as a prize to Cersei. He will also bring her the corpse of Myrcella (or her lookalike), claiming that the Dornishmen killed her and he only descended upon them to seek revenge in the name of the Crown. Alongside Doran, he will bring other gifts, such as Aurane Waters and the missing royal fleet and a... mutually beneficial solution to her sparrow problem, asking in return for her hand in marriage.

For Cersei, this turn of events will seem almost too good to be true, while Euron will view her as nothing more than a Falia Flowers 2.0,, their marriage merely the easiest way to make sure he is in control of King's Landing by the time Victarion returns with Dany and the dragons (which, of course, he will only partially succeed in doing).

So all in all, I imagine the events in Feast/Dance will be pretty solidly linked to the rest of the story.

[BalerionTheCat]

14 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I still think the Ironborn are losers. But Theon has always been interesting (he's getting even more interesting) and Asha has some really good potential.

Of course Theon is interesting. But I don't see him really as an IB. He was raised by Ned. He wanted to be part of their marvelous pack. When he came to Balon with his alliance pact, he thought to bring all the IB with him. But Balon and his sister pissed on him. He had to show them he was as strong as them. Unfortunately, Bran didn't cooperate and things went bad and worst.  All by himself in the show. Mostly Ramsay's doing in the books.

But I think he will have his wish by the end. Bran will give him new purposes.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

One thing I'd never bought into was a big giant deal about the Daynes.  I've always thought the Sword of The Morning being made from a star, or whatever LOL, was just a bit of an homage to King Tut's dagger coming from a meteorite.  I thought I'd mention that being as I just came across one of the documentaries about it again.  Maybe fate was telling me to mention it. 

[Cas Stark]

6 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

One thing I'd never bought into was a big giant deal about the Daynes.  I've always thought the Sword of The Morning being made from a star, or whatever LOL, was just a bit of an homage to King Tut's dagger coming from a meteorite.  I thought I'd mention that being as I just came across one of the documentaries about it again.  Maybe fate was telling me to mention it. 

I always thought there was going to be some pay off.  The Ashara mystery woven in with Lyanna, the Sword of the Morning Dawn, Ned returning same, the Dayne's naming the heir "Ned" and Starfall overall.  I expected some answers or back story or maybe even something bigger.  Now it looks like they are just a loose end that will stay loose.