Book & Show

[T and A]

15 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I always thought there was going to be some pay off.  The Ashara mystery woven in with Lyanna, the Sword of the Morning Dawn, Ned returning same, the Dayne's naming the heir "Ned" and Starfall overall.  I expected some answers or back story or maybe even something bigger.  Now it looks like they are just a loose end that will stay loose. 

Dawn was shown in the show in the ToJ scene. It may reapear in season 8. Although I highly doubt it. It was probably just an easter egg for the book fans.

[Cas Stark]

We'll probably never know, honestly, since I don't see the author finishing the series.  At all.  The best that we will be able to do is try and reconstruct the basics and read the tea leaves in the post show interviews from the showrunners and GRRM.  

I believe that the endings will be the same.  I have even come to think that some of the things that I have disliked, like Cersei remaining in power, may end up happening in the books, she may get the best of Aegon, she looks certainly to be going to get the better of the Tyrells since the show has killed off the entire family.  I also think that a lot of things the show didn't include, like Arianne and Aegon and Stoneheart are going to turn out to be not as important as many thought.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/20/2019 at 7:31 PM, Cas Stark said:

We'll probably never know, honestly, since I don't see the author finishing the series.  At all.  The best that we will be able to do is try and reconstruct the basics and read the tea leaves in the post show interviews from the showrunners and GRRM.  

I believe that the endings will be the same.  I have even come to think that some of the things that I have disliked, like Cersei remaining in power, may end up happening in the books, she may get the best of Aegon, she looks certainly to be going to get the better of the Tyrells since the show has killed off the entire family.

There's no way she's going to get the best of Aegon. Not only are there are going to be Sand Snakes in the city to make Cersei's life difficult, but Varys is still there. Yes, have you forgotten the fact that Varys is still creeping about the Red Keep. What is his mission? To ensure that Cersei continues her "good" work: running the Seven Kingdoms into the ground and getting everyone to hate her so much that they'll be begging for an alternative solution.

Cersei's last hope are the Tyrells. If the Tyrells are killed or expelled from the city, Cersei no longer has any allies in King's Landing. The reason why Cersei is going to get the better of the Tyrells is the same reason why Varys wants her (not Kevan) to be the one in power. All the men left will either be blindly loyal to her (we know that there are not that many Lannister men in the capital anymore) simply because of her last name or they, like the City Watch, will be readily swayed. 

And that's another thing. Even if Cersei is able to wriggle herself out of her current legal troubles, the High Septon's feelings towards her will not change. The current High Septon is proving himself something of a political mastermind. AND he'll have Tyene, one of the Sand Snakes, whispering in his ear. Then again....if Cersei will be ruling as regent for Tommen or Myrcella the way I think she will, the High Septon won't have to do much.

And yes: I totally think that Myrcella will be the first ruling queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Tommen is far too closely tied to the Tyrell family. If she wants to get rid of the Tyrells, Tommen -- in the end -- must die. Either King Tommen:

• in a accident caused by himself or his mother
• he'll die in the crossfire between Cersei and Mace/Margaery
• he'll be killed by Varys or one of the Sand Snakes
• or (more unlikely) he'll kill himself like in the TV show

However, Myrcella is linked to the Dornish so trying to rule through Myrcella simply accelerates the anti-Lannister Dornish interests. Plus, Myrcella is smarter and braver than both of her brothers and she is older than Tommen. Did I also mention how smart she is? Several characters (Tyrion, Arianne, Doran, Sansa, etc.) have commented on both her intelligence and her knack for strategy. I can see Queen Myrcella challenging Cersei every step in the most ladylike, brainy way possible...which would probably piss Cersei off to no end.

Cersei also had a tendency to both bully and neglect Tommen. Not happening with Myrcella.

 

[BlackLightning]

On 3/20/2019 at 7:31 PM, Cas Stark said:

I also think that a lot of things the show didn't include, like Arianne and Aegon and Stoneheart are going to turn out to be not as important as many thought.

You're taking the show as gospel when it has clearly demonstrated it is not.

They made a complete mess of the storylines taking place in the North during season 5. 98% of the characters that were in or involved with the North -- Roose and Ramsay Bolton, Sansa Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Theon Greyjoy, Davos Seaworth, Mance Rayder, Brienne Tarth, Littlefinger, Jon Snow and Melisandre are all important. Excluding Ramsay Bolton, every single one of those characters and their story arcs suffered.

They also made a complete mess of the storylines taking place in Dorne during season 5....only to make it worse in season 6. For what purpose? The showrunners seem to have been overly biased towards the Oberyn/Elia/Sand Snake revenge plot which is not even half of the Dornish contribution to the overall story.

Bran seems to be the single most plot-important character in the entire series...yet he disappears without a trace for a season. Okay. But then he reappears in season 6 and what exactly does he do? Bear witness to the circumstances of Jon Snow's birth? Okay that could have been done in the space of one single episode. What about the other nine? Bran suddenly has these powers that are barely explained and then how he comes to master said powers is never explained. Then he becomes a robot.

Season seven was the worst season by GoT standards and it was pretty bad in hit-or-miss in terms of average TV. The spectacle of it all was great but the substance and the story was painfully weak.

With Arianne and Aegon in the series, the weak seven-episode season we got could have easily made for a stronger ten-episode season. Add in Prince Quentyn and the two other Greyjoy uncles, Aeron and Victarion, we would have had an even stronger ten-episode season and maybe even a seven- or eight-episode long season eight.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

You're taking the show as gospel when it has clearly demonstrated it is not.

They made a complete mess of the storylines taking place in the North during season 5. 98% of the characters that were in or involved with the North -- Roose and Ramsay Bolton, Sansa Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Theon Greyjoy, Davos Seaworth, Mance Rayder, Brienne Tarth, Littlefinger, Jon Snow and Melisandre are all important. Excluding Ramsay Bolton, every single one of those characters and their story arcs suffered.

They also made a complete mess of the storylines taking place in Dorne during season 5....only to make it worse in season 6. For what purpose? The showrunners seem to have been overly biased towards the Oberyn/Elia/Sand Snake revenge plot which is not even half of the Dornish contribution to the overall story.

Bran seems to be the single most plot-important character in the entire series...yet he disappears without a trace for a season. Okay. But then he reappears in season 6 and what exactly does he do? Bear witness to the circumstances of Jon Snow's birth? Okay that could have been done in the space of one single episode. What about the other nine? Bran suddenly has these powers that are barely explained and then how he comes to master said powers is never explained. Then he becomes a robot.

Season seven was the worst season by GoT standards and it was pretty bad in hit-or-miss in terms of average TV. The spectacle of it all was great but the substance and the story was painfully weak.

With Arianne and Aegon in the series, the weak seven-episode season we got could have easily made for a stronger ten-episode season. Add in Prince Quentyn and the two other Greyjoy uncles, Aeron and Victarion, we would have had an even stronger ten-episode season and maybe even a seven- or eight-episode long season eight.

The show is a guideline, it hit all of the broad and important points of the first 3 books and about 80% of those in the last 2 books, there is no reason to believe that the show isn't going to also hit 80% or better in terms of the ending of the tale.  

The simplest explanation as to why various stories and characters aren't in the show is that they were not important enough to the main story.  This is why so many of the characters and side plots from Feast and Dance aren't in the show, they are not that important, and not important enough to throw them in when there is already an established set of main characters.

The show doing a poor job on the plot doesn't mean they haven't stuck to the main beats of the story GRRM gave them, it only means that they are not good at plot without a real blueprint in the form of a book to follow, this is why the plot and cohesiveness of the show has fallen since they moved beyond the books, it doens't mean at all though that they aren't still telling the main story as GRRM gave it to them.

[Brianstorm]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

The show is a guideline, it hit all of the broad and important points of the first 3 books and about 80% of those in the last 2 books, there is no reason to believe that the show isn't going to also hit 80% or better in terms of the ending of the tale.  

The simplest explanation as to why various stories and characters aren't in the show is that they were not important enough to the main story.  This is why so many of the characters and side plots from Feast and Dance aren't in the show, they are not that important, and not important enough to throw them in when there is already an established set of main characters.

The show doing a poor job on the plot doesn't mean they haven't stuck to the main beats of the story GRRM gave them, it only means that they are not good at plot without a real blueprint in the form of a book to follow, this is why the plot and cohesiveness of the show has fallen since they moved beyond the books, it doens't mean at all though that they aren't still telling the main story as GRRM gave it to them.

Except even characters they have kept have been weakened, Euron most notably is far less interesting and is more Victarion than Book Euron. I can't imagine Euron's magical prowess, which defines his whole character, won't come into play for the endgame. Frankly the problem isn't their talent as much as they try and play favorites where they can (as they admitted about Renly and Stannis, who we all know they did dirty no matter if he sacrifices his daughter in the books or not, as well as killing off characters because they don't like the actor). They like many people didn't love the last two books as much as the first three and let their power and ego's get in the way of the overall story.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Brianstorm said:

play favorites where they can (as they admitted about Renly and Stannis

This is interesting - not that they liked Renly and disliked Stannis, but that they actually admitted it. Do you by any chance have a link or remember where you read it? 

[Cas Stark]

12 minutes ago, Brianstorm said:

Except even characters they have kept have been weakened, Euron most notably is far less interesting and is more Victarion than Book Euron. I can't imagine Euron's magical prowess, which defines his whole character, won't come into play for the endgame. Frankly the problem isn't their talent as much as they try and play favorites where they can (as they admitted about Renly and Stannis, who we all know they did dirty no matter if he sacrifices his daughter in the books or not, as well as killing off characters because they don't like the actor). They like many people didn't love the last two books as much as the first three and let their power and ego's get in the way of the overall story.

That's all true, but it still doesn't mean they have veered from the basic outline of the story GRRM gave them.  There is no indication that this is true, and their statements and GRRM statements strongly support the idea that the basic end will be the same.  Of course since GRRM is unlikely to ever get to the end, much of this will still be debated for another 10 or 15 years. Winds, while it may give some sense of a direction, is unlikely, IMO, to answer many of the major questions, assuming it eventually comes out in 1-3 years.

[Brianstorm]

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is interesting - not that they liked Renly and disliked Stannis, but that they actually admitted it. Do you by any chance have a link or remember where you read it? 

Well they said he would be a bad king (pure speculation considering he'd put the realm first vs The Others) as well as criticizing his "massive desire to rule" which could describe two dozen characters in the show.

[Brianstorm]

22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's all true, but it still doesn't mean they have veered from the basic outline of the story GRRM gave them.  There is no indication that this is true, and their statements and GRRM statements strongly support the idea that the basic end will be the same.  Of course since GRRM is unlikely to ever get to the end, much of this will still be debated for another 10 or 15 years. Winds, while it may give some sense of a direction, is unlikely, IMO, to answer many of the major questions, assuming it eventually comes out in 1-3 years.

 

Well he recently was quoted saying:

"I know some of the things," Martin said. "But there's a lot of minor-character [arcs] they'll be coming up with on their own. And, of course, they passed me several years ago. There may be important discrepancies."

So "important discrepancies" could mean a thousand different things!

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, Brianstorm said:

 

Well he recently was quoted saying:

"I know some of the things," Martin said. "But there's a lot of minor-character [arcs] they'll be coming up with on their own. And, of course, they passed me several years ago. There may be important discrepancies."

So "important discrepancies" could mean a thousand different things!

Do people still care about the 'minor character arcs' that the author isn't even writing, IMO.  I don't.  I wanted Stoneheart to have an epic story, but she probably doesn't.  Same for Aegon.  I hated Dorne and hated Euron and the expanded Greyjoy stories, and I still do, in both mediums.  But, at least the show has pruned those extra stories in large degree.  I'm not really interested any more.

So, 'may be important discrepancies' seems like the author's attempt to maintain interest in the books that aren't out, same reason the showrunners said something similar.  That is a far cry from the idea that the ending will be somehow substantially different or that main characters killed in the show will live in the books that aren't written or vice versa.  It seems to me the gig is up.  Unless he purposely changes the ending from what he sold HBO, the ending he has said he has known and imagined for 20+ years,  assuming again, he ever writes any ending, then the ending will be same, just like, despite the poor writing, poor characterization and lack of plot continuity, the show has stayed faithful to the major story points. 

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

Except even characters they have kept have been weakened, Euron most notably is far less interesting and is more Victarion than Book Euron.

I would add Sansa, Jon and Arya to this list as well.

Jon has not only been weakened (no warging, no dragon dreams, no longer the elite swordsman that impressed even Jaime Lannister) but he's also been made noticeably dumber. It was one thing for Jon to be dumb before being killed (in the books, he was still very smart and more politically savvy than Ned and Robb were) but for him to be the exact same type of stupid AFTER being killed and resurrected. Like I get being numb, hollow, cold and maybe even suicidal...but not stupid. Much less making the exact same stupid decisions that got you betrayed and killed in the first place.

2 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

Frankly the problem isn't their talent as much as they try and play favorites where they can (as they admitted about Renly and Stannis, who we all know they did dirty no matter if he sacrifices his daughter in the books or not, as well as killing off characters because they don't like the actor). They like many people didn't love the last two books as much as the first three and let their power and ego's get in the way of the overall story.

Absolutely agree. They are exactly like the people who love the first three books and hate or are very dismissive of the last two.

What they did to and for their favorites, Ramsay Bolton and Ellaria Sand, cost them the plotlines of the North, the Vale, the Stormlands and Dorne.

Ser Barristan was one of the many who got the raw end of the deal too. Lots of very interesting storylines and reunions were ruined by killing him in the middle of season 5. They could have at least had the storytelling sense to save his death for the fighting pits in episode 9.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

That's all true, but it still doesn't mean they have veered from the basic outline of the story GRRM gave them.  There is no indication that this is true, and their statements and GRRM statements strongly support the idea that the basic end will be the same.  Of course since GRRM is unlikely to ever get to the end, much of this will still be debated for another 10 or 15 years. Winds, while it may give some sense of a direction, is unlikely, IMO, to answer many of the major questions, assuming it eventually comes out in 1-3 years.

If all of what @Brianstorm wrote is true, how does it not mean that they have veered from the basic outline of the story GRRM gave them. We won't know that for a fact until the last two books (or, at least, the first of the last two) comes out.

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Do people still care about the 'minor character arcs' that the author isn't even writing, IMO.  I don't.  I wanted Stoneheart to have an epic story, but she probably doesn't.  Same for Aegon.  I hated Dorne and hated Euron and the expanded Greyjoy stories, and I still do, in both mediums.  But, at least the show has pruned those extra stories in large degree.  I'm not really interested any more.

So, 'may be important discrepancies' seems like the author's attempt to maintain interest in the books that aren't out, same reason the showrunners said something similar.  That is a far cry from the idea that the ending will be somehow substantially different or that main characters killed in the show will live in the books that aren't written or vice versa.  It seems to me the gig is up.  Unless he purposely changes the ending from what he sold HBO, the ending he has said he has known and imagined for 20+ years,  assuming again, he ever writes any ending, then the ending will be same, just like, despite the poor writing, poor characterization and lack of plot continuity, the show has stayed faithful to the major story points. 

Striking fear into the hearts of the Freys and everyone else in the Riverlands is epic. Setting a trap for Jaime Lannister that he is unlikely to get out of is epic. Working tirelessly to crown the next King/Queen of the North is epic.

Did you like how the show pruned the stories of Arya, Sansa and Bran? Did you like how the show whitewashed Cersei and nerfed Tyrion? And how can you say that doing those things to characters that important is staying faithful?

Thank you for admitting your real problem with the Dornish and Ironborn storylines. It's not because they aren't well-written or important. It's because you personally hate them.

If only we can get you to do the same thing for the storylines set in the Vale and the North, then we'd be set.

In any case, you're not the only one to hate them. The showrunners hate them too but at least they saw either novelty or nominal importance in those stories.

[Cas Stark]

18 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

snipped...

Thank you for admitting your real problem with the Dornish and Ironborn storylines. It's not because they aren't well-written or important. It's because you personally hate them.

If only we can get you to do the same thing for the storylines set in the Vale and the North, then we'd be set.

In any case, you're not the only one to hate them. The showrunners hate them too but at least they saw either novelty or nominal importance in those stories.

I hate them on their artistic merit, e.g. the Dorne and later IB characters are paper thin compared to the previously introduced characters from the first 3 books, so no, they aren't well written.  Euron Greyjoy?  Come on.  A sorcerer, kinslaying, brother abusing, rapist pirate? He's terrible.  The Sand Snakes are paper thin and terrible also.  In addition, to the characters being flat and silly, yes I also hate them because their stories are not important, they are add ons, retcons, filler.  Those are two fairly large problems.  

Euron is clearly important enough that he couldn't be cut.  The showrunners were going to cut Dorne, and they should have, but they were wowed by the great reception for Oberyn, so they cast the rest of them, and also they wanted to do more with Indira Varma, all a mistake.

As far as veering from the main story, past is prologue.  The main story from the first 5 books is in the show, it may have been bastardized in some places, but the show hit the same major points.  There is no reason to believe the end will be any different.

 

[BlackLightning]

On 3/25/2019 at 10:41 PM, Cas Stark said:

I hate them on their artistic merit, e.g. the Dorne and later IB characters are paper thin compared to the previously introduced characters from the first 3 books, so no, they aren't well written.  Euron Greyjoy?  Come on.  A sorcerer, kinslaying, brother abusing, rapist pirate? He's terrible.  The Sand Snakes are paper thin and terrible also.  In addition, to the characters being flat and silly, yes I also hate them because their stories are not important, they are add ons, retcons, filler.  Those are two fairly large problems.  

Euron is clearly important enough that he couldn't be cut.  The showrunners were going to cut Dorne, and they should have, but they were wowed by the great reception for Oberyn, so they cast the rest of them, and also they wanted to do more with Indira Varma, all a mistake.

As far as veering from the main story, past is prologue.  The main story from the first 5 books is in the show, it may have been bastardized in some places, but the show hit the same major points.  There is no reason to believe the end will be any different.

 

Dorne and the Iron Islands are important to the story.

If they weren't, then they would not have been a part of the map of Westeros. And characters from those regions definitely would not have been both name-dropped and discussed but included in the appendix of THE VERY FIRST BOOK

When coming up with the idea of Westeros, you can easily omit a peninsula and an archipelago

The main story from the first 5 books is NOT in the show.

Either it has been bastardized or it has remained faithful. It can't be both.

How can you say that you don't believe that the end will be any different when the show has completely ignored major endgame prophecies for seasons? How can you say that when, in the books, you are looking at THREE possible Targaryen heirs to the Iron Throne?

Oh and the show has yet to explain any of the magic they have decided to show. There's not much of it but...why haven't they explained it?

[Ser Gareth]

1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Dorne and the Iron Islands are important to the story.

If they weren't, then they would not have been a part of the map of Westeros. And characters from those regions definitely would not have been both name-dropped and discussed but included in the appendix of THE VERY FIRST BOOK

When coming up with the idea of Westeros, you can easily omit a peninsula and an archipelago

The main story from the first 5 books is NOT in the show.

Either it has been bastardized or it has remained faithful. It can't be both.

How can you say that you don't believe that the end will be any different when the show has completely ignored major endgame prophecies for seasons? How can you say that when, in the books, you are looking at THREE possible Targaryen heirs to the Iron Throne?

Oh and the show has yet to explain any of the magic they have decided to show. There's not much of it but...why haven't they explained it?

GRRM originally intended the ENTIRE tale to be told using the POVs from the first book.  In between AGOT and ACOK he changed his mind.  A major part of the problem with the books is that GRRM seems determined to have too many POVs, which actually detracts from the mystery of many of the characters.  It also means even in the books character development has decreased significantly.

GRRM said in between ACOK and ASOS that he stopped reading forums because someone figured out the ending.  So therefore we know all the information that is required is in those two books.

The conclusion is obvious.  The only POV characters that matter are the ones from AGOT (this is also backed up by GRRM confirming the story is primarily about Dany & Jon).  So we also know that any characters introduced from ASOS onwards aren't that important to the overall story.

The final ending of the show will match that of the books when it comes to the main characters.  GRRM has confirmed this.

[BlackLightning]

22 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

GRRM originally intended the ENTIRE tale to be told using the POVs from the first book.  In between AGOT and ACOK he changed his mind.

First of all...of course, he changed his mind. He had to.

There was no way he could tell that epic of a story (the one described in his first and probably only real outline) with 8 POVs. As a matter of fact, 6-7 because Ned and Cat were always going to die. Oh, and in the original outline, Sansa was going to die too. So that's more like 5 POVs.

No way. It's impossible.

For one, it reveals too much of a bias for the Stark family...and provides potential spoilers as to who is more important.

Second of all...Doran Martell and his daughter Arianne were always going to be big figures. How do I know this? The discussion between Tyrion Lannister (one of the OG's) and his father Tywin in Tyrion's LAST chapter is telling. Everyone's last chapter in A Game of Thrones had major, major developments.

In Dany's last chapter, she walks into a funeral pyre and defies every single law of nature when she walks out of said pyre unharmed with three dragons. And the people fall down to their knees in worship of her as a comet streaks across the sky. In Catelyn's last chapter, her son Robb becomes king and has a hostage in Jaime Lannister. Arya's last chapter features Ned's execution and ends with a massive, scary cliffhanger. Sansa's last chapter sees Sansa traumatized and do a complete heel-face-turn.

Tyrion's last chapter lays out the political landscape moving forward. Robert Baratheon's brothers and the Tyrells are clear, indisputable highlights. You know who else is? Dorne and the Brotherhood without Banners.

40 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

A major part of the problem with the books is that GRRM seems determined to have too many POVs, which actually detracts from the mystery of many of the characters.

True.

 

40 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

It also means even in the books character development has decreased significantly.

For who? The Stark kids? Yes. For Tyrion? Maybe. For everyone else? Nope.

[Ser Gareth]

28 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

First of all...of course, he changed his mind. He had to.

There was no way he could tell that epic of a story (the one described in his first and probably only real outline) with 8 POVs. As a matter of fact, 6-7 because Ned and Cat were always going to die. Oh, and in the original outline, Sansa was going to die too. So that's more like 5 POVs.

No way. It's impossible.

For one, it reveals too much of a bias for the Stark family...and provides potential spoilers as to who is more important.

Second of all...Doran Martell and his daughter Arianne were always going to be big figures. How do I know this? The discussion between Tyrion Lannister (one of the OG's) and his father Tywin in Tyrion's LAST chapter is telling. Everyone's last chapter in A Game of Thrones had major, major developments.

In Dany's last chapter, she walks into a funeral pyre and defies every single law of nature when she walks out of said pyre unharmed with three dragons. And the people fall down to their knees in worship of her as a comet streaks across the sky. In Catelyn's last chapter, her son Robb becomes king and has a hostage in Jaime Lannister. Arya's last chapter features Ned's execution and ends with a massive, scary cliffhanger. Sansa's last chapter sees Sansa traumatized and do a complete heel-face-turn.

Tyrion's last chapter lays out the political landscape moving forward. Robert Baratheon's brothers and the Tyrells are clear, indisputable highlights. You know who else is? Dorne and the Brotherhood without Banners.

True.

 

For who? The Stark kids? Yes. For Tyrion? Maybe. For everyone else? Nope.

Everyone.  In ADWD character development was either out of character or severely lacking.  But then so was the quality of writing and dialogue.  Tormund Giantsbutt indeed.....

[aFeastForDragons]

I've no idea how people still take what happens on the show as what will happen in the books. If we didn't have AFFC/ADWD would people honestly believe Littlefinger marries Sansa off to Ramsey Bolton, Jon would fight the WW at Hardhome, Jamie and Broon would go to Dorne and Asha + Theon would sail off to Mereen to collect countless characters most notably Varys?

None of those characters except Ramsey are even in those places. Sure its the rough plot line for some like WInterfell bu the story is heavily twisted for the show.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

On 3/26/2019 at 3:41 AM, Cas Stark said:

I hate them on their artistic merit, e.g. the Dorne and later IB characters are paper thin compared to the previously introduced characters from the first 3 books, so no, they aren't well written.  Euron Greyjoy?  Come on.  A sorcerer, kinslaying, brother abusing, rapist pirate? He's terrible.  The Sand Snakes are paper thin and terrible also.  In addition, to the characters being flat and silly, yes I also hate them because their stories are not important, they are add ons, retcons, filler.  Those are two fairly large problems.  

Euron is clearly important enough that he couldn't be cut.  The showrunners were going to cut Dorne, and they should have, but they were wowed by the great reception for Oberyn, so they cast the rest of them, and also they wanted to do more with Indira Varma, all a mistake.

As far as veering from the main story, past is prologue.  The main story from the first 5 books is in the show, it may have been bastardized in some places, but the show hit the same major points.  There is no reason to believe the end will be any different.

The paper thin characters are mostly in AGoT and ACoK. Renly Baratheon isn't even a character, Robert is a walking cliché, Robb only gets characterization in book 3 when he is about to die. All the shallow stuff and fake depth is in AGoT when the thing was still envisioned as a boring trilogy.

I mean, the land is named 'the Seven Kingdoms' for a reason. There are seven kingdoms there, and seven plus some more great houses, and the story was always envisioned to encompass all of these.

In fact, if we were getting the travesty that is the show in the books we would have impotent, robot, and silly Stark children as 'characters', enacting a plot that makes no sense. You can see how silly and boring it is to reduce the story to 'a core plot' involving just the so-called 'main characters'. All we get then is fake tension. Nobody ever thought Ramsay would win, nobody ever thought Arya would kill Sansa (or vice versa), nobody thinks for a moment Cersei is going to win, nobody believes that Dany and Jon will turn against each other, etc. This is all clichéd nonsense. In fact, even the conflict with 'the antagonist' is boring as hell because Lena Headey sucks as an antagonist and basically has no connection or relationship or personal quarrels with either Jon or Dany.

I mean, you and Doran Martell have bigger fish to fry than Lena and Emilia/Kit.

 

[Dragon in the North]

40 minutes ago, aFeastForDragons said:

I've no idea how people still take what happens on the show as what will happen in the books. If we didn't have AFFC/ADWD would people honestly believe Littlefinger marries Sansa off to Ramsey Bolton, Jon would fight the WW at Hardhome, Jamie and Broon would go to Dorne and Asha + Theon would sail off to Mereen to collect countless characters most notably Varys?

None of those characters except Ramsey are even in those places. Sure its the rough plot line for some like WInterfell bu the story is heavily twisted for the show.

Obviously, the show won’t spoil everything, but it probably has already spoiled some major plot points.