Book & Show

[Ser Gareth]

36 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I for one believe the books will be wildly different. D&D are simply adapting the ending of the original outline that was leaked a few years back (which George already said he isn't sticking to), so in that sense they can say they "followed the intended ending" and George can say that they are "using his ideas", while in reality D&D are trying not to spoil the books and George is trying not to steal their thunder.

There is no way that Ramsay vs Jon would work in the books, there is no depth to this conflict. In the show, Ramsay held Rickon hostage and had abused Sansa, he had the support of most of the North and he was a brilliant strategist. In the books there is no pressing goal, no score to settle, and no real threat from Ramsay, since he is nothing but a psychopath with low cunning and very few loyal followers, I dare say even among the Boltons. Stannis also can't burn Shireen if he loses to Ramsay, and even if you find some contrived way to cram that plot point in, his thematic arc would still be ruined.

On the other hand, Dany has a much much more complicated situation in Essos than she did in the show. In the show, the Battle of Fire was a one episode side quest, and there was no involvement from Qarth and Volantis, no schemers trying to steal or kill her dragons. It also took her no time at all to sail for Westeros and reach Dragonstone. Also, her campaign in season 7 basically spun in place, with no real plot or character advancements aside from falling in love with Jon and losing a dragon, both of which were forced. If George was going to write stuff like that, he would have been done in less than a year.

No, the books will feature a great Exodus to Essos in the wake of the Others' invasion, which is going to lead to plot lines most of you show watchers never even dreamed of. The show is either going to hide this entirely, or it's going to feature it in the last 2 or 3 episodes just to stay "loyal" to books (not that big a spoiler, since the Exodus will actually start in Winds).

How do you explain the epic fight between Ramsay's hounds and the Stark Direwolves (notice the plural) then?

[The Coconut God]

2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

How do you explain the epic fight between Ramsay's hounds and the Stark Direwolves (notice the plural) then?

It's an idea D&D floated to George in one of their discussions and he decided to add some build-up to it in one of his episodes because the man has standards when it comes to storytelling?  That "epic fight" wasn't really built up in the books, nor is George really into over the top cheesy stuff like that.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

It's an idea D&D floated to George in one of their discussions and he decided to add some build-up to it in one of his episodes because the man has standards when it comes to storytelling?  That "epic fight" wasn't really built up in the books, nor is George really into over the top cheesy stuff like that.

But it came from GRRM.  Do you think he was just having a laugh in his notes about how important Ramsay's hounds were?

'A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.'

[The Coconut God]

Just now, Ser Gareth said:

But it came from GRRM.  Do you think he was just having a laugh in his notes about how important Ramsay's hounds were?

As far as I know it came from a script. When writing scripts for the show, George would work with the show's plot in mind, which is all stuff the producers already agreed on. If anything, you can say he didn't like the idea and/or he didn't like the fact that D&D don't do proper set-up for their big moments and he rubbed their noses it by specifically mentioning that they had to add a set-up scene.

[Ser Gareth]

Just now, The Coconut God said:

As far as I know it came from a script. When writing scripts for the show, George would work with the show's plot in mind, which is all stuff the producers already agreed on. If anything, you can say he didn't like the idea and/or he didn't like the fact that D&D don't do proper set-up for their big moments and he rubbed their noses it by specifically mentioning that they had to add a set-up scene.

No, it came from GRRM's notes.  It's happening in the books.  You can guarantee it.  Or rather you could have guaranteed it had we ever got the books!

[The Coconut God]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

No, it came from GRRM's notes.  It's happening in the books.  You can guarantee it.  Or rather you could have guaranteed it had we ever got the books!

Can you provide a link to refresh my memory? I could swear it was a note on a script.

[Mladen]

12 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

The first three books maybe.  And even then only the European derived characters (minus the Iron Isles and Mountain tribes, both of which are pretty pathetic and have about as much depth as a teaspoon).  The minor characters away from Westeros are meh, even in the first three books (Daario, Pyat Pree, ugh).

Then it all jumped the shark in AFFC.  We had even more Iron Isles and they lacked depth even more than in the first three books.  And Dorne?  One stereotypical sulky teenager who could be fast forwarded to any number of TV shows in the modern era combined with a whole load of cardboard characters.

And what's worse is that most of them don't seem to be important other than Euron.  Which concerns me considerably because Euron is by far and away the worst protagonist in the whole series (and that includes Ramsay, who is another cardboard cutout villain who the books really could've done without).

I am so sorry, but what are we discussing here? I mean, yes, there are one-dimensional characters in ASOIAf, just like in any other series. But the core of the stories, the 6 main characters and their adversaries provide sufficiently interesting story for me (and many others) to enjoy book series. 

And D&D don't just have issues with ancillary characters. OK, so Dorne sucked, no problem. Yes, Daario wasn't an exotic as he was (although a bit cartoonishly described) in the books. Etc. Etc. But they have fundamental issues with what this series is about and what the stories of many of these characters are. Whether we talk about Tyrion and Sansa, Jon and Mance, Arya's travels and interactions with commonfolk, Daenerys' Meereenese knot, Jaime's repentence, there are so much they have missed. And worse, they didn't need more time or more money or more anything. They just needed a good grasp on the text. Simply, the main characters in the TV series are just shadows of beautifully constructed literary characters. And that is why, I wholeheartedly believe, that whatever the ending this May brings us, it simply won't be enough for me. I understand it will be different for many, but not for me. 

[Mladen]

18 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

But it came from GRRM.  Do you think he was just having a laugh in his notes about how important Ramsay's hounds were?

'A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.'

The most ridiculous irony of this is that they have built up dogs more than actual direwolves. We have discussed the dogs during Season 5 and 6 episodes and it is absurd how much more prominent Ramsay's dogs were to direwolves. 

Also, whether it comes from GRRM or D&D, ultimately means nothing. GRRM didn't say "in a book or two down the line..." but "a season or two down the line". So, while argument can be made it is going to happen in the books, Martin was successfully separating TV duties from writing novels before so it really may go either way.

[The Coconut God]

28 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

'A note for future reference. A season or two down the line Ramsay’s pack of wolfhounds are going to be sent against the Stark direwolves, so we should build up the dogs as much as possible in this and subsequent episodes.'

Just like I said, George is schooling them on how to properly set up a big event. But there is no reason to believe the idea came from George rather than D&D. Keep in mind George killed off Mago in one of the episodes he wrote, while also commenting that the character was alive and was going to play an important part in the books. George can't force his own ideas on the show 2 seasons in advance, otherwise he would have forced LSH.

[Aurane]

Spoiler

I think that there's a chance that Euron might emulate Aurane Water's plotline by betraying Cercei and taking off with the Golden Company since he already has the payment. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

since Dany mentions stolen crowns in the books, and Jon is called a thief on multiple occasions, that will probably be the betrayal plot for Dany that mirrors Aurane/Cersei

Ramsay vs. Jon works completely. Ramsay stole a position that Jon always wanted, Jon stole his bride. They are both bastards raised high who now have a perfect vendetta against each other. The dogs. vs. direwolves thing was built into the story from the beginning with Joffrey getting an inferior "dog" to try to be just as cool as the Starks.

[Lady Rhodes]

Wow! Love the debate!

Remember that we aren’t trying to debate the merits of book versus show - everyone has their opinions and the opinion (like or dislike) is valid - they either like it or don’t!

but I am loving the discussion - I had not thought of the Aurane Euron connection 

[Feologild]

I view the show as its set in a alternative universe to the books.  

[BlackLightning]

I'm sorry but anyone who believes that the Dornish (particularly Arianne) or the Ironborn (particularly Euron but shout out to Theon, Asha and Victarion) won't play a huge role in the endgame of the series is an idiot.

The same thing goes with the Faceless Men, the Citadel, the Iron Bank and the Faith Militant. It is obvious.

D&D just didn't want to adapt those things. It wasn't a money issue either as HBO was throwing money at them. They could've made 9 or 10 full-length seasons out of this show. At the end of the day, D&D only adapted what they liked and if they liked something that existed only in their minds, they made it happen only because they liked it.

That's why season 7 rang so hollow. Because so many events were neither earned, deserved nor sensible. Why are they unearned, undeserved or insensible? Because these events are based upon and/or developed by situations or characters that D&D did not like or did not have the patience for.

Imagine if the Iron Bank had this looming, shadowy presence in the series. Imagine if their connections to the Faceless Men held fast. Watching Cersei negotiate with them from such a weak position would have been a lot more intense.

[btfu806]

On 3/11/2019 at 5:01 PM, Risto said:

I am so sorry, but what are we discussing here? I mean, yes, there are one-dimensional characters in ASOIAf, just like in any other series. But the core of the stories, the 6 main characters and their adversaries provide sufficiently interesting story for me (and many others) to enjoy book series. 

And D&D don't just have issues with ancillary characters. OK, so Dorne sucked, no problem. Yes, Daario wasn't an exotic as he was (although a bit cartoonishly described) in the books. Etc. Etc. But they have fundamental issues with what this series is about and what the stories of many of these characters are. Whether we talk about Tyrion and Sansa, Jon and Mance, Arya's travels and interactions with commonfolk, Daenerys' Meereenese knot, Jaime's repentence, there are so much they have missed. And worse, they didn't need more time or more money or more anything. They just needed a good grasp on the text. Simply, the main characters in the TV series are just shadows of beautifully constructed literary characters. And that is why, I wholeheartedly believe, that whatever the ending this May brings us, it simply won't be enough for me. I understand it will be different for many, but not for me. 

Right there with ya, man.

I am re watching the series and am currently getting through season 6. I really hate what they did with Arya. It's so far from what she is in the books and who I grew to love as a character. Not to say character arcs can't change or go in different directions if it's natural and makes sense. But her arc to terminator/assassin just feels so forced. Maybe if they spent more time on it, it would have felt right. But re-watching it now (and back then) it's just rough.

So now with someone like her, and whatever her ending will be. It's going to reflect this huge change she has forcefully gone through as a character that never felt organic.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Wouldnt a major event like Dance 2.0 be included in the show?

We know Dance 2.0 isn't about Dany's invasion which is primarily what any attack on Aegon will involve. 

GRRM said he is using the Illiad model of two heroes fighting, which doesn't fit Dany vs. Aegon for a host of reasons.

"Dance" as a metaphor for fighting, and suggests a fake/shallow romance of some kind.

Dance of Dragons was also brought up in the show's lore with an episode title, song title, and scenes built around it. It seems odd to reference all of that if the books simply end with Dany burning Aegon to a crisp and that's it. They must want to reference it in the show for some kind of pay off later.

As for Jorah and the greyscale, it seems like they just liked the idea of a character contracting a scary disease?? Sam saving him was unexpected and I'm not sure where that's going...

[Ser Gareth]

16 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm sorry but anyone who believes that the Dornish (particularly Arianne) or the Ironborn (particularly Euron but shout out to Theon, Asha and Victarion) won't play a huge role in the endgame of the series is an idiot.

The same thing goes with the Faceless Men, the Citadel, the Iron Bank and the Faith Militant. It is obvious.

D&D just didn't want to adapt those things. It wasn't a money issue either as HBO was throwing money at them. They could've made 9 or 10 full-length seasons out of this show. At the end of the day, D&D only adapted what they liked and if they liked something that existed only in their minds, they made it happen only because they liked it.

That's why season 7 rang so hollow. Because so many events were neither earned, deserved nor sensible. Why are they unearned, undeserved or insensible? Because these events are based upon and/or developed by situations or characters that D&D did not like or did not have the patience for.

Imagine if the Iron Bank had this looming, shadowy presence in the series. Imagine if their connections to the Faceless Men held fast. Watching Cersei negotiate with them from such a weak position would have been a lot more intense.

So basically anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot?  Interesting debating style...

The human conflicts in Westeros look likely to serve one purpose.  Weaken the realm of men so that mankind looks doomed in the the war against the Others.  That will make the victory over the Others more heroic.

The Dornish - will back (f)Aegon.  A war will ensue that they'll lose, thus removing precious numbers for the war against the Others.

Ironborn - Still very much active in the show so (regrettably) probably do have a part to play.  I fucking hate Euron in the books with a passion.  Such a crappy unbelievable character and totally against the style of the world that got me initially hooked.  The exception here is Victarion, who is a plot device to bring Dany her ships to take her to Westeros.

Faceless Men - They'll be some kind of irrelevant subplot in the books, but their main purpose was to provide Arya with certain skills.

Iron Bank - Are in the show, so there will probably be something in it (one ending I saw mooted years ago was that the Iron Bank would hire a faceless man to kill the ruler of Westeros as means of a punishment against non payment of debt, only that ruler would be someone innocent).

Faith Militant - Their arc in the show is over and I see it ending the same way in the books.

As for adaptation, there was either nothing to adapt or pointless travelogues.  Even the excerpts we've had for TWOW are meandering to say the list.  Two Arianne chapters of her getting nowhere fast.

[Ser Gareth]

On 3/11/2019 at 9:23 PM, The Coconut God said:

Just like I said, George is schooling them on how to properly set up a big event. But there is no reason to believe the idea came from George rather than D&D. Keep in mind George killed off Mago in one of the episodes he wrote, while also commenting that the character was alive and was going to play an important part in the books. George can't force his own ideas on the show 2 seasons in advance, otherwise he would have forced LSH.

It was from a GRRM script.  GRRM wanted them to adapt as faithfully as possible.  Ramsay's dogs versus Stark Direwolves would have happened in the books.  Look at the fuss he made over one pointless Dothraki character being killed off early in the show.....

And I didn't say he forced anything.  He merely wrote a notation for D&D advising them of his future intentions when it came to Ramsay versus the Starks.

[The Coconut God]

17 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

It was from a GRRM script.  GRRM wanted them to adapt as faithfully as possible.  Ramsay's dogs versus Stark Direwolves would have happened in the books.  Look at the fuss he made over one pointless Dothraki character being killed off early in the show.....

And I didn't say he forced anything.  He merely wrote a notation for D&D advising them of his future intentions when it came to Ramsay versus the Starks.

Bringing up the same argument over and over again does not make it better. If you want to believe there will be a canine fight in the books, that's great, but you have no grounds to call it a certainty.

Besides, it's lame anyway. Which of the following scenarios would you prefer:

1.

Spoiler

 

Stannis lures the Frey and Manderly forces onto the frozen lakes, the ice breaks and most of them drown. A few Manderly knights survive and they tell Stannis that Wyman is actually on his side, and the plan was for them to charge the Freys from behind in the last second and break their line... but of course they were going say that if they lost. Stannis has them all summarily executed because taking prisoners would put his plan at risk, and besides fuck Manderly, he killed his Onion Knight.

Stannis's men all dress up in the drowned soldiers' uniforms. A small group is sent ahead with Lightbringer and some heads chopped off from the men he had lost to hunger and cold, to make the Frey victory more believable. Ramsay starts writing the Pink Letter. By the time he finishes, the "Freys" enter Winterfell and they turn on everyone inside. Ramsay is in a hurry to join his father down below and see what's going on, but he's also a compulsive psychopath. The thought of Jon reading all the cruel things he had written in his letter excites him too much to let it wait, so in lieu of the Bolton sigil he just seals it with a smear of wax and has the maester send it right away. Then he descends... to his doom.

Now, the other northmen have no clue about Stannis's plan. From their perspective, the Freys are trying to kill them, so they fight back fiercely... And Stannis's men don't know they were secretly loyal to the Starks either, so they butcher them like traitors. By the time everyone figures out the truth, a lot of potential allies kill each other senselessly alongside the Boltons. Stannis wins entirely on his own and feeds the Boltons to the flames, but his forces are all but spent and the remaining northmen loath him.

Meanwhile, in the wake of the Pink Letter and Jon's assassination, thinks fall apart hard at Castle Black. Whatever groups decide not to murder each other loot whatever they can and go their separate ways (one of these groups carrying a comatose Jon to Karhold). The castle is abandoned. The black brothers are either killed or they desert. This is the end of the Night's Watch. By the 4th or 5th chapter in the North, the Others breach the Wall and the winds of winter starts howling. Stannis, convinced he is destined to protect the realm from them, burns Shireen in exchange for a boon from Rh'llor, but killing his child gets him nothing. His fight is doomed. With the few men still loyal to him, he goes forth into the blizzard, but only their corpses return.

By the middle of the book, all of the North is lost and the Others descend upon White Harbor as Jon is loading up the Manderly fleet with women and children to flee across the Narrow Sea to Braavos. You see, unlike Stannis, Jon will bend before he breaks. He has learned from Mance that the people are more important than the realm, so he is more than willing to abandon the North and Winterfell if that is the only way to save them. The Iron Bank grants him a loan to keep his people fed, they continue inland through Andalos to find a place to settle, and by the end of the book, he meets Daenerys.

 

2.

Stannis loses to the Boltons, which ruins his entire arc. Somehow, Shireen is burned, because we learned from the show that this is supposed to happen. The extremely dire situation at Castle Black somehow works itself back to normal, with a resurrected Jon in charge of everyone, conveniently no longer beholden to his Night's Watch vows.

Ramsay is the main antagonist in the North for most of the book... for some reason. Must be because him and Jon have such a long list of scores to settle, and Ramsay is such an intelligent and charismatic villain, who would surely keep the combined forces of the Wildlings, Night's Watchmen, Northern Loyalists and Vale Knights in check with his 3,000 remaining Bolton men. The Others can wait, it's not like we've been expecting for them for the entire series!  But hey, this means we will get an EPIC fight between direwolves and dogs, which I'm sure must be thematically crucial to the Song of Ice and Fire (or The Song of Mange and Rabies, as I like to call it...).

[Dragon in the North]

Things that will most likely be the same:

1. Craster’s children become the White Walkers 

2. Valyrian steel kills White Walkers 

3. The White Walkers have some sort of leader 

4. Shireen gets burned 

5. Viserion dies and becomes an ice dragon 

6. The Hound is alive 

7. Jon Snow gets resurrected 

8. Euron killed Balon 

9. Jon becomes king 

10. Frey pies

11. Hold the Door 

12. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers 

13. Danerys takes over the khalasar

14. R+L=J

15. Ramsay wrote the pink letter

16. Tyrion is named Hand of the Queen

17. Ser Barristan dies

18. Melisandre is ancient 

 

Things that possibly will happen:

1. Jon vs. Ramsay 

2. Rickon and Shaggydog are killed

3. The High Sparrow outlaws trial by combat

4. Cersei uses wild fire 

5. The Freys are massacred

6. Euron and Cersei join forces 

7. Randyll Tarly betrays the Tyrells