Jon's Shield Hall Speech and Subsequent Plan

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

I do.  Is that a bad thing?  Good thing?  Honestly curious.  I will say I spent my first four years here pretty much exclusively on the books and show forums, and primarily the former.  It was only when someone got elected that I started frequenting the bottom of the forum, and things branched out from there.

Joffrey?

[DMC]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Joffrey?

That's an insult to Joffrey.  He was just a kid.  So is the other one, granted, but he's 72.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 3/21/2019 at 9:29 PM, DMC said:

I do.  Is that a bad thing?  Good thing?  Honestly curious.  I will say I spent my first four years here pretty much exclusively on the books and show forums, and primarily the former.  It was only when someone got elected that I started frequenting the bottom of the forum, and things branched out from there.

No judgement involved. Sometimes I like to rattle off information for the newbees that have stars in their eyes. On occasion I have ventured down to the Miscellaneous chatter and received a rather good smack around.

I also tried to participate in couple book vs show threads over on Game of Thrones HBO but the threads turn into bashing. Hell, it ain't HBO's fault martin didn't deliver.

 

[DMC]

19 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I also tried to participate in couple book vs show threads over on Game of Thrones HBO but the threads turn into bashing.

Yeah they were always pretty toxic in my experience.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 3/21/2019 at 4:59 PM, DMC said:

Yeah, this would be compelling if it wasn't just entirely without empirical merit and ethically flippant.  Name me a leader that wouldn't at least make an effort to save one of the people he loves most that's within his grasp, regardless of vows.  It's not a realistic expectation.  And frankly I'd judge him more for not doing something when he was presented with the opportunity to do something.

It is realistic expectations for someone in a critical position.  Jon himself in his own POV said he would tell his brothers to stay put, the sister is no longer his problem.  Look, nobody said it was going to be easy.  People in the military, emergency rescue, do it all the time in the real world.  The people who work and do their jobs during emergencies (hurricane evacuation, for example) would rather be with their families helping them instead of the people they serve but they stay at their jobs.  I served with guys who had pregnant wives back home, parents who were sick, you name it, but they stayed and continued to do their jobs.  It's silly to think the expectations are unrealistic because people do it all the time.  In the real world.  

 

[DMC]

On 3/24/2019 at 3:45 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

People in the military, emergency rescue, do it all the time in the real world.  The people who work and do their jobs during emergencies (hurricane evacuation, for example) would rather be with their families helping them instead of the people they serve but they stay at their jobs.  I served with guys who had pregnant wives back home, parents who were sick, you name it, but they stayed and continued to do their jobs.  It's silly to think the expectations are unrealistic because people do it all the time.  In the real world.  

Oh, gimme a break.  I respect your service but in no way did that entail anything remotely resembling the calculus Jon had to make.  He was LC and was in position to help (what he thought was) his sister.  That's not a relevant analogue to anything in the real world.

[Rose of Red Lake]

It's funny how these two conversations are going on right now in different threads.

Another thread: Robb didn't rescue Sansa and he's a terrible guy who lets her suffer. 

This thread: Jon refuses to let his sister suffer and he's a terrible guy for abandoning his post. 

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 4:17 PM, DMC said:

No.  The author literally did the opposite - he repeatedly went out of his way to explicate why Jon was the only one in the room with half a brain, let alone "reasonable."

 

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment; from the view point of his brothers in opposition, how was Jon seemingly reasonable? We know that there is an existential danger out beyond the Wall, but the vast majority of the NW have to swallow a fantastic tale from people (Jon, Sam, Wildlings) whom they are decidedly unsure about whether they really trust and/or like at all (the conspirators being the focal nexus of this discord).

They have an existing barrier that has stood the test of time that stops their foes in their tracks (rather impressively in the near past as a matter of fact... and with a skeleton crew at that). Why would it seem reasonable to allow your known enemy through with no fight whatsoever, all on the assurances of a few who claim that there is a larger threat looming, but you haven't seen/experienced first hand? Even if you do believe them, why are thousands of live, likely dangerous, Wildings south of the Wall any more preferable to thousands of positively dangerous wights north of the Wall, all things considered? They have no reason to believe that their tried and true magical barrier will fail (thin rumors of a magical, Wall downing horn aside), so why risk it? If they are unable to pass, what does it matter how many there are out there?

Realistically, all it would mean is an end to regular ranging north of the Wall. I don't think many Black Brothers would lament that situation. I'm sure some would be willing to risk eternal un-death just for the fun of running wight burning parties out beyond the Wall, but I suspect that most would be content to hole up in their giant, magical fortification and ignore the whole thing until they showed up and tried something, just like they have for millennia.

[kissdbyfire]

 

1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment; from the view point of his brothers in opposition, how was Jon seemingly reasonable? We know that there is an existential danger out beyond the Wall, but the vast majority of the NW have to swallow a fantastic tale from people (Jon, Sam, Wildlings) whom they are decidedly unsure about whether they really trust and/or like at all (the conspirators being the focal nexus of this discord).

That’s inaccurate. 

Confirmed survivors of Mormont’s ranging:

Sam, Dolorous Edd, Grenn, Dywen, Bedwyck, Black Bernarr, Tim Stone, Ulmer of the Kingswood, Garth Greyfeather, Ronnel Harclay, Kedge Whiteye, Goady, Sweet Donnel Hill, Left Hand Lew, Jarman Buckwell and his party, Jon. 

Not believing all of the accounts of the many survivors (and the FF) is myopic, stubborn, and stupid. 

 

1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

They have an existing barrier that has stood the test of time that stops their foes in their tracks (rather impressively in the near past as a matter of fact... and with a skeleton crew at that). Why would it seem reasonable to allow your known enemy through with no fight whatsoever, all on the assurances of a few who claim that there is a larger threat looming, but you haven't seen/experienced first hand? Even if you do believe them, why are thousands of live, likely dangerous, Wildings south of the Wall any more preferable to thousands of positively dangerous wights north of the Wall, all things considered? They have no reason to believe that their tried and true magical barrier will fail (thin rumors of a magical, Wall downing horn aside), so why risk it? If they are unable to pass, what does it matter how many there are out there?

ADwD, Jon XI 

“Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. “The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.”
“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”
“They were. As the lord commander knows.”
“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?”
Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.”

[Three-Fingered Pete]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s inaccurate. 

Confirmed survivors of Mormont’s ranging:

Sam, Dolorous Edd, Grenn, Dywen, Bedwyck, Black Bernarr, Tim Stone, Ulmer of the Kingswood, Garth Greyfeather, Ronnel Harclay, Kedge Whiteye, Goady, Sweet Donnel Hill, Left Hand Lew, Jarman Buckwell and his party, Jon. 

Not believing all of the accounts of the many survivors (and the FF) is myopic, stubborn, and stupid.

 

You and I are aware of that. We are not the people who mistrust the motivations and actions of our peers.

 

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

ADwD, Jon XI 

“Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. “The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.”
“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”
“They were. As the lord commander knows.”
“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?”
Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.”

Quote

Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.

 

To me, this scene portrays Jon shaming Bowen on principle. He can't argue with Jon's logic, taking the vow at face value, however, Jon certainly didn't change his mind. He just shut him up. Jon's argument only works if the recipient is willing to understand that the Wildlings are no longer their enemy. Bowen, and several others it would seem, are clearly not there yet.

[kissdbyfire]

34 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

You and I are aware of that. We are not the people who mistrust the motivations and actions of our peers.

All of them know 300 men went w/ Mormont on his ranging, and few returned. The few that did return have seen the supernatural threat that is coming for them. So, not believing in the threat is the definition of myopic and stupid. 

 

34 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

To me, this scene portrays Jon shaming Bowen on principle. He can't argue with Jon's logic, taking the vow at face value, however, Jon certainly didn't change his mind. He just shut him up. Jon's argument only works if the recipient is willing to understand that the Wildlings are no longer their enemy. Bowen, and several others it would seem, are clearly not there yet.

Of course he can’t, because Jon is right. But Bowen is too stubborn, xenophobic, biased, and stupid so instead of accepting the facts he goes ahead w/ the plan to get rid of Jon. 

Jon’s argument that leaving the FF on the north side of the Wall will only increase the number of wights they will have to face eventually is very valid. But Bowen and others still can’t let go of their prejudices. But Jon is also right in trying to save as many as he can, because that’s the right thing to do. And that’s why he brings up the vows. The NW duty is to protect the realms of men, and not to just sit on their arses and “let them die”. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Of course he can’t, because Jon is right. But Bowen is too stubborn, xenophobic, biased, and stupid so instead of accepting the facts he goes ahead w/ the plan to get rid of Jon. 

Jon’s argument that leaving the FF on the north side of the Wall will only increase the number of wights they will have to face eventually is very valid. But Bowen and others still can’t let go of their prejudices. But Jon is also right in trying to save as many as he can, because that’s the right thing to do. And that’s why he brings up the vows. The NW duty is to protect the realms of men, and not to just sit on their arses and “let them die”. 

 

I am not disputing that, Bowen and his cohorts are.

[Ser Hedge]

On 3/24/2019 at 7:45 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It is realistic expectations for someone in a critical position.  Jon himself in his own POV said he would tell his brothers to stay put, the sister is no longer his problem. 

Agreed, Jon might not have come out of his version of Agamemnon's dilemma smelling of roses here, but I think his motivations are also complex. His love for his family whom he could not help the past few years, resulting in their complete devastation is part of it (he thinks of each of his siblings before telling Tormund that they best change the plan), but as we discussed earlier in the thread, his plans for the wall will be ruined if the flaying, torturing barbarian Ramsay should make good on his threat to ride north. Jon needs the FF to man the walls. He has taken them all under his wing, non-combatants included. Is Ramsay going to just ride up there, collect his hostages and say "Well done, Snow. Keep it up and use these creative strategies to keep the 7Ks safe". No, to protect those who protect the walls from the threat to the north, Jon has to deal with the threat from the south. I think @kissdbyfire, @Alaynsa Starne, @Rose of Red Lake and others made that point before.

 

[Ser Hedge]

18 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's funny how these two conversations are going on right now in different threads.

Another thread: Robb didn't rescue Sansa and he's a terrible guy who lets her suffer. 

This thread: Jon refuses to let his sister suffer and he's a terrible guy for abandoning his post. 

I haven't been on the thread about Robb, but his behaviour is consistent with real world medieval ages. After Robert Bruce lost his first battle soon after being crowned King of Scotland, his Queen, daughter, brothers, sister and other key allies were taken hostage by the English. While his Queen being the daughter of one of Edward I of England's chief supporters was obviously not going to be ill-treated and the daughter did not have face any physical suffering (she had to stay in a silent convent for many years of her teens and developed severe depression), the brothers were horribly tortured and executed. The sister and another Scottish noble who had crowned Bruce were displayed in cages in the open for years! Still Bruce carried on his struggle and you can argue about that, as you can about many freedom-fighters in other settings whose families were arrested and tortured.

Robb was better off securing hostages of his own to trade with the Lannisters. Only Lord Karstark and Lady Cat were too dim-witted. Well ok, K cared more about vengeance than his green boy king's sisters, but still dim-witted.

[HoodedCrow]

So, Martin has Jon say, “ Arya, so what, I’m The LC now, so it’s none of my business”. “Ygritte is dead, now that trash will quit hampering my style.” “Wildlings make good zombies”

Not great human being material, if that is his attitude, and wouldn’t have been voted in. Yes, he could have made other choices, but his conflicts are signs of a good person also. Although some people think psychopathy is a good thing in leaders as long as they project confident masculinity. It depends partly if you are a black and white thinker, and Martin is not. He explores this ground in many ways.

 

Hey, just thought, do you think the Horn of Jaruman could revive the undead from their sleep?

[Clegane'sPup]

18 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Hey, just thought, do you think the Horn of Jaruman could revive the undead from their sleep?

No.

Horn of Joramun ---- Mance;s fancy rune inscribed horn is burnt when Rattleshirt glamored as Mance is burned.

Story is that Joramun's horn brings down the Wall.

Yep, a horn supposedly goes toot toot --- and the massive ice wall crumbles.

BTW according to posters who read Fire and Blood volume 1, the good queen Alysanne's (a Targ) dragon balked and would not fly over the Wall.

 

[HoodedCrow]

You are right, the vows for the NW say “ I am the horn that wakes the sleepers”. But I thought there was another possibility for the horn...the one that Sam has? Samwell of Hornhill, right?

But it could mean that the NW or even individuals or groups might be the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield and the sword, etc. Who wrote the vow? Who is the “I”?

I am believe that I am number six...from The Prisoner.:)...joke for old timers.

There is the issue of personal responsibility, but then, this is a world in which dragons fly, and Warger’s warg.

This series features complicated moral situations.

[Tagganaro]

One of the many mysteries of the Pink Letter and Jon's reaction to it...Good OP and thread.  I think we can safely assume Jon had some kind of plan when he went to make his Shieldhall speech, given that he had spent the previous 2+ hours plotting with Tormund.  It is further likely then that the shieldhall speech was not some impromptu emotional reaction to the Pink Letter but part of whatever Tormund and Jon planned together.

We are not given much in terms of Jon's inner thoughts during the speech that would reveal anything about what his plan was, but it definitely seems like a key component was winning over the wildlings there, given that it's something Jon and Tormund would have likely discussed and Jon's triumphant thoughts about getting the reaction he desired once the wildlings roared their seal of approval.

It also seems as if Jon is carefully taking note of who is there and what those people were doing there...he specifically notes Bowen and the co-conspirators leaving in a huff.  Given that Jon is caught off-guard by the assassination attempt, it's almost impossible to say he had any plan in place for dealing with Bowen.  But I do think it is a possibility Jon intended to get the wildlings away from the Wall seeing the tension it was causing and that could be sort of an alternative motivation for his announced plan of marching towards Winterfell which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if that is the end result of 2+ hours of planning with Tormund.  

I definitely think GRRM was saving whatever this reveal will end up being for TWOW, but for me I don't think what we get in ADWD is exactly what it seems to be.  

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 3/26/2019 at 6:42 PM, Ser Hedge said:

Agreed, Jon might not have come out of his version of Agamemnon's dilemma smelling of roses here, but I think his motivations are also complex. His love for his family whom he could not help the past few years, resulting in their complete devastation is part of it (he thinks of each of his siblings before telling Tormund that they best change the plan), but as we discussed earlier in the thread, his plans for the wall will be ruined if the flaying, torturing barbarian Ramsay should make good on his threat to ride north. Jon needs the FF to man the walls. He has taken them all under his wing, non-combatants included. Is Ramsay going to just ride up there, collect his hostages and say "Well done, Snow. Keep it up and use these creative strategies to keep the 7Ks safe". No, to protect those who protect the walls from the threat to the north, Jon has to deal with the threat from the south. I think @kissdbyfire, @Alaynsa Starne, @Rose of Red Lake and others made that point before.

 

You're ignoring the reason why Ramsay got upset to start with.  Jon, the lord commander of the nw, had no business in sticking his nose in Ramsay's business.  Ramsay would have no need to threaten if Jon had not done something wrong from the beginning.  Jon had already done a lot of wrongs by the time the pink letter arrived.