International thread 2

[Conflicting Thought]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Right wing puppet? I haven’t heard anyone describe Guaido as “right wing.”

Then you are severely misinformed, or not informed enough, or with your head up to your neck in the sand. 

[Conflicting Thought]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hard to imagine it can get much worse in Venezuela, and anyone still defending Maduro clearly has their head in the sand.

You lack imagination then, cuz it can get so much worse. And for the record i am not defending maduro. 

[Martell Spy]

Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro’s Enemies Took Their Best Shot. They Missed.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/venezuela-maduro-guaido-best-shot.html

Quote

But as the day wore on, it became clear that Guaidó didn’t have the numbers. After an initial skirmish, there were no additional signs of military forces fighting on the opposition side. The army remained with Maduro. Demonstrations flared throughout Caracas, and more than 60 people were injured, including in one grotesque incident, captured on video, in which an armored vehicle plowed into a throng of protesters on a crowded overpass. At the end of the day, Maduro appeared on TV flanked by his senior military commanders. Guaidó, from an undisclosed location, called for more protests Wednesday—May Day—but it’s becoming clear that the opposition took its best shot on Tuesday and fell short.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

By overthrowing him themselves? Through peaceful or violent means, it’s really not the place of the US or any other country  to decide.

Two questions: First, do you think this is actually realistic and second, how will you feel if nothing changes in the next few years and tens of thousands of people die? Because I can comfortably say that it's very unlikely that Maduro can be overthrown without outside help and I know that I'd rather act now than kick the can down the road. It's can't be just the U.S., it needs to be the U.N., but taking no action is increasingly not a real option.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Two questions: First, do you think this is actually realistic

Yes. I have more faith in the people of Venezuela than you do if you think they can’t can’t handle an oppressor themselves. Will it be easy? No. Is it ultimately up to them? Yes.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

second, how will you feel if nothing changes in the next few years and tens of thousands of people die

Saddened. As I am for every gross atrocity committed around the world. Still I’m not going to be a cheerleader for the US committing regime-change off the basis of the government they don’t like being bad.  How would you feel in the next few years if the US backed coup works no better than the dozens it’s already committed, and tens of thousands of people still die as a result of US’ coup at the hands of those the US has dubbed “freedom fighters” Please tell me what do you think what would be adequate compesation to those  who lost limbs and family in part because the US gave military weapons,ammunition, and other support?

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 I know that I'd rather act now than kick the can down the road.

And Saddam Hussein was a mini-Stalin, so it was only right the US dispose the tyrant, Iran’s leaders, are oppressive to, so it’s fine for the US to attempt regime change there, and it’s a Shame the US hasn’t overthrown the communist government of Cuba yet.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's can't be just the U.S., it needs to be the U.N., but taking no action is increasingly not a real option.

Yes it is kinda is still an option for the US to not try a coup in Venezuela.  Saudia Arabia s deliberately killing thousands of civilians in Yemen. Yet no one in the West proposes the US should try to attempt regime change there even though it’s far more oppressive to it’s citizens than a lot  dictatorships around the world  and is responsible tens of thousands of innocents dying. 

[House Balstroko]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

Also Bolsonaro, who is a extremist, corrupt, corporate white supremacist, environment destroying, anti-free press, criminal thug dictator, beloved of Bolton and the rest of the unspeakable.  Those are the people aligned with the attempted coup.

This is beyond laughable. Bolsonaro is far better than that thug Maduro. When Bolsonaro's policies lead to a massive exodus then you may have a point.

Unfortunately, as of late, the left keeps siding with corrupt inefficient fake socialist leaders.

Of course you also ignored all the support Guaido has received from foreign leaders. Macron, Trudeau, May, Morisson, Merkel... or do you consider those "thugs" as well? 

[House Balstroko]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. I have more faith in the people of Venezuela then you do if you thing they can’t can’t handle an oppressor themselves. Will it be easy? No

Saddened. As I am for every gross atrocity committed around the world. Still I’m not going to be a cheerleader for the US committing regime-change off the basis of the government they don’t like being bad.  How would you feel in the next few years if the US backed coup works no better than the dozens it’s already committed, and tens of thousands of people still die as a result of US’ coup at the hands of those the US has dubbed “freedom fighters” Please tell me what do you think what would be adequate compesation to those  who lost limbs and family as in part because the US had to but in?

And Saddam Hussein was a mini-Stalin, so it was only right the US dispose the tyrant, Iran’s leaders, are oppressive to, so it’s fine for the US to attempt regime change there. 

Yes it is kinda is still an option for the US to not try a coup in Venezuela.  Saudia Arabia s deliberately killing thousands of civilians in Yemen. Yet no one in the West proposes the US should try to attempt regime change there even though it’s far more oppressive to it’s citizens than a lot  dictatorships around  and is responsible tens of thousands of innocents dying. 

While there's certainly a lot of merit to that view, if fails to take into account the logistics at play in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is the heart of the Islamic world. Therefore any attack against it would be portrayed as an attack against the Muslim faith, period. 

They have a lot of leverage. that they can and have used to their advantage.

[Martell Spy]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. I have more faith in the people of Venezuela than you do if you think they can’t can’t handle an oppressor themselves. Will it be easy? No. Is it ultimately up to them? Yes.

Saddened. As I am for every gross atrocity committed around the world. Still I’m not going to be a cheerleader for the US committing regime-change off the basis of the government they don’t like being bad.  How would you feel in the next few years if the US backed coup works no better than the dozens it’s already committed, and tens of thousands of people still die as a result of US’ coup at the hands of those the US has dubbed “freedom fighters” Please tell me what do you think what would be adequate compesation to those  who lost limbs and family in part because the US gave military weapons,ammunition, and other support?

And Saddam Hussein was a mini-Stalin, so it was only right the US dispose the tyrant, Iran’s leaders, are oppressive to, so it’s fine for the US to attempt regime change there, and it’s a Shame the US hasn’t overthrown the communist government of Cuba yet.

Yes it is kinda is still an option for the US to not try a coup in Venezuela.  Saudia Arabia s deliberately killing thousands of civilians in Yemen. Yet no one in the West proposes the US should try to attempt regime change there even though it’s far more oppressive to it’s citizens than a lot  dictatorships around the world  and is responsible tens of thousands of innocents dying. 

First, define regime change. From what I can tell, they are mainly using economic sanctions and speech to try to topple Maduro. If they are using troops or covert operations to overthrow Maduro, I'd like to know about that, but I've heard nothing of the sort yet.

Second, the U.S. currently has a moron for President and the fanatic warmonger Bolt well-situated to make chaos. Personally, I'm happy for every second that is wasted on this project. I don't think Maduro is going to fall. And I'm quite worried that the Trump admin will start a war somewhere like Korea or Iraq. If they were to invade Venezuela or the like that opinion would of course change. 

It appears that Trump doesn't want a war before the election for political reasons. Yet he stupidly appointed a bunch of far-right chicken-hawks to high positions. It would appear this whole project is the scraps he has thrown those hawks to keep them busy. Bolton in particular seems to be driving it. 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

This is beyond laughable. Bolsonaro is far better than that thug Maduro. When Bolsonaro's policies lead to a massive exodus then you may have a point.

Unfortunately, as of late, the left keeps siding with corrupt inefficient fake socialist leaders.

Of course you also ignored all the support Guaido has received from foreign leaders. Macron, Trudeau, May, Morisson, Merkel... or do you consider those "thugs" as well? 

I think they are stupid.  And so is anybody saying that Bolsonaro is a better thug.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

While there's certainly a lot of merit to that view, if fails to take into account the logistics at play in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is the heart of the Islamic world. Therefore any attack against it would be portrayed as an attack against the Muslim faith, period. 

They have a lot of leverage. that they can and have used to their advantage.

Yeah no. The reasons for why the Saudi dynasty gets a pass isn’t because going after them would offend Muslims or whatever. They’re because they’ve been more than affable to the West, or at least various powers in it. 

If the Saudi dynasty stopped being  a prime buyer of US weapons, weren’t so open with their oil,, the US probably would be showcasing various human rights abuses its commuting non-stop, and using that as a basis to get involved.

Like Donald Trump didn’t veto Congress’ resolution to for Saudia-Arabia’s war on Yemen because he’s afraid of offending Muslims. 

Human-rights, violations, happen across the world. The only instances where the US seems to think that’s good enough reason to help topple a government is when the government in question doesn’t align with US interests or at least, the interests to those that prop it up. 

4 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

11 hours ago, Zorral said:

 

This is beyond laughable. Bolsonaro is far better than that thug Maduro. When Bolsonaro's policies lead to a massive exodus then you may have a point.

Yeah, the guy, on record for saying he would beat a gay couple in the street if he happened upon them, applauds torture and is proud his government tortures people, has expressed sorrow that the indigenous people of Brazil didn’t become as depleted as the Native Americans became,  and once said to woman to her face he didn’t rape her because she didn’t deserve it isn’t the type of guy whose virtue you should defend. Like I don’t get the outrage of referring to the self-proclaimed proud homophobe as a bad guy here or not take his condemnation of Maduro as meaning much.

Like what exactly do you find beyond laughable in @Zorral description of the man? Certainly not that he’s a racist?

https://www.survivalinternational.org/articles/3540-Bolsonaro

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. I have more faith in the people of Venezuela than you do if you think they can’t can’t handle an oppressor themselves. Will it be easy? No. Is it ultimately up to them? Yes.

Saddened. As I am for every gross atrocity committed around the world. Still I’m not going to be a cheerleader for the US committing regime-change off the basis of the government they don’t like being bad.  How would you feel in the next few years if the US backed coup works no better than the dozens it’s already committed, and tens of thousands of people still die as a result of US’ coup at the hands of those the US has dubbed “freedom fighters” Please tell me what do you think what would be adequate compesation to those  who lost limbs and family in part because the US gave military weapons,ammunition, and other support?

And Saddam Hussein was a mini-Stalin, so it was only right the US dispose the tyrant, Iran’s leaders, are oppressive to, so it’s fine for the US to attempt regime change there, and it’s a Shame the US hasn’t overthrown the communist government of Cuba yet.

Yes it is kinda is still an option for the US to not try a coup in Venezuela.  Saudia Arabia s deliberately killing thousands of civilians in Yemen. Yet no one in the West proposes the US should try to attempt regime change there even though it’s far more oppressive to it’s citizens than a lot  dictatorships around the world  and is responsible tens of thousands of innocents dying. 

FFS, you don't need to cut up posts and respond to each line. Make a coherent argument on the whole.

You keep arguing that the people of Venezuela should decide their fate, but you fail to understand why that’s not a likely result. Maduro has the military and all the country’s supplies. This is what is causing the humanitarian crisis, and it cannot be resolved without outside help. Inaction from the outside world will only perpetuate the status quo. And if said status quo saddens you, you should be for change, even if there’s no guarantee that the change will work.

As to your numerous non sequiturs, spare me. We can point to examples all over the place which show interventions both worked and failed spectacularly. Arguing that it failed in one instance is not a justification to not act in another situation. Venezuela needs outside help. Denying this is the equivalent of arguing that one should not believe their lying eyes.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

FFS, you don't need to cut up posts and respond to each line. Make a coherent argument on the whole.

You can complain about how I use the quoting system on here. But I honestly won't change how I use it because you disapprove. If it bothers you so much, you are free to just ignore the posts altogether. But really you are never going to change my posting habits because you expressed displeasure over it. 

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

You keep arguing that the people of Venezuela should decide their fate, but you fail to understand why that’s not a likely result. Maduro has the military and all the country’s supplies. This is what is causing the humanitarian crisis, and it cannot be resolved without outside help.

I acknowledged it would be difficult for the people of Venezuela to oust Maduro. Not every revolution needs the military backing of other countries to succeed. Venezuela was able to succeed in ousting the  government regime preceded Chavez that were guilty of plenty atrocities against the citizenry without help from the US who aligned   I don't think another US coup spearheaded by the likes of Abrams, and Bolton would end with the people deciding their destiny or having their well-fare improved nor do I think the Oil companies in the west that have sided with Guaido will put the well-fare of the Venezuela as a high priority 

 

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

And if said status quo saddens you, you should be for change, even if there’s no guarantee that the change will work.

The US attempting a coup against a government it says/is bad, isn't really a break from the status quo man. This isn't change. Quite literally it's been the most used argument/defense whenever the US wants to change a foreign government to a more Western/US friendly one. I will not be a cheerleader for when it plays cop and roll my eyes when someone suggesting I'm supporting a monster by virtue of not supporting the US tendencies for regime change.  How would you feel if this particular, coup leads to tens of thousands of deaths at the hands of forces the US backed?  If the "freedom fighters" use resources it's given(which will inevitably include weapons) against civilians? What would you feel would be adequate compensation to the people who lost relatives or their bodies thanks to freedom fighters in Venezuela using American guns and bullets?

 

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

As to your numerous non sequiturs, spare me. We can point to examples all over the place which show interventions both worked and failed spectacularly. Arguing that it failed in one instance is not a justification to not act in another situation. Venezuela needs outside help. Denying this is the equivalent of arguing that one should not believe their lying eyes.

Please then give me some examples US backed coups that didn't  have loads of people dead  in the aftermath of the coups' "success". That left the people of the country with freedom, and democracy. Your basis for why it's ok for the US to launch a coup in Venezuela is that lots of people are suffering/ dying because of the maglinent regime.  You could literally use that rationale to excuse the Iraq war(Saddam after all was bad guy), and practically almost the countries the US has staged a coup in, or wants to stage a coup in. 

I hope you’re at least consistent and ready to tell all those who aren’t cheering on the prospect of the US doing a coup in a Iran(again), or another attempt at Cuba that they’re supporting authoritarians.

[House Balstroko]

19 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah no. The reasons for why the Saudi dynasty gets a pass isn’t because going after them would offend Muslims or whatever. They’re because they’ve been more than affable to the West, or at least various powers in it. 

If the Saudi dynasty stopped being  a prime buyer of US weapons, weren’t so open with their oil,, the US probably would be showcasing various human rights abuses its commuting non-stop, and using that as a basis to get involved.

Like Donald Trump didn’t veto Congress’ resolution to for Saudia-Arabia’s war on Yemen because he’s afraid of offending Muslims. 

Human-rights, violations, happen across the world. The only instances where the US seems to think that’s good enough reason to help topple a government is when the government in question doesn’t align with US interests or at least, the interests to those that prop it up. 

Yeah, the guy, on record for saying he would beat a gay couple in the street if he happened upon them, applauds torture and is proud his government tortures people, has expressed sorrow that the indigenous people of Brazil didn’t become as depleted as the Native Americans became,  and once said to woman to her face he didn’t rape her because she didn’t deserve it isn’t the type of guy whose virtue you should defend. Like I don’t get the outrage of referring to the self-proclaimed proud homophobe as a bad guy here or not take his condemnation of Maduro as meaning much.

Like what exactly do you find beyond laughable in @Zorral description of the man? Certainly not that he’s a racist?

https://www.survivalinternational.org/articles/3540-Bolsonaro

 

Yes,I find most of the criticism concerning Bolsonaro vapid, especially when Maduro is given a pass. 

Bolsonaro is a thug, there’s no going around that and much of what he said is despicable. Politicians are known for saying all kinds of stupid shit to pander to specific demographics. But until the situation in Brazil becomes as dire as it is in Venezuela, he’ll still have the upper hand.

My issue with the fact that his condemnation of Maduro has been brought up is that it was treated as being somewhat unique. It most certainly is not. Over 50 countries have thrown their support behind Guiado, many from the most democratic countries in the world. 

Lets see who backs the current government: Russia, China, Iran, Turkey, North Korea, Bolivia, Cuba and a few other. What exemplary nations, but still with the exception of NK, none of them come close to Venezuela in its current state. 

I’m going to address the points you brought up in your discussion with @Tywin et al.. The biggest problem here is that you’ve decided to make this all about the US. 

This has clouded people’s judgments. On some level, there is merit to that, but not when it becomes the sole point of contention.

The current regime wishes to stay in power and will do whatever possible to discredit the opposition. Maduro is using the situation with the US because he knows that it gives him his best chance at garnering support. He’s already convinced a good segment of the left. 

The ultimate result is that the population is condemned to suffer his competence because they get to stick it to the US. When that becomes the sole purpose of the discussion, then Houston we have a problem. 

 

[Zorral]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:07 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Two questions: First, do you think this is actually realistic and second, how will you feel if nothing changes in the next few years and tens of thousands of people die? Because I can comfortably say that it's very unlikely that Maduro can be overthrown without outside help and I know that I'd rather act now than kick the can down the road. It's can't be just the U.S., it needs to be the U.N., but taking no action is increasingly not a real option.

Yemen, et al. Uncounted numbers of people dead thanks to the US 'intervention, aid and assistance, and complicity.'

As you biill yourself up as an expert on Latin America, how good is your spoken, writing and reading Spanish?  How many Venezuelans have you had dinner with in the last six months?  How many other Latin Americans and people from the Caribbean and Central America have you had conversations with in the last six months.  I mean, personally, face to face?  And how many Latin American publications (the printed press is still really The Thing in Spanish speaking countries), have you read conscientiously in the last six months?

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Yes,I find most of the criticism concerning Bolsonaro vapid, especially when Maduro is given a pass. 

Bolsonaro is a thug, there’s no going around that and much of what he said is despicable. Politicians are known for saying all kinds of stupid shit to pander to specific demographics.

"Saying" Nah man he is doing pretty horrifying and  often times yes racist shit. He's not just saying stuff to please his bigoted supporters. Like he's literally trying to scrap the few things things the indigenous people of Brazil(the people who he's made clear he sees as subhuman) have left; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-indigenous/brazils-indigenous-tribes-protest-bolsonaro-assimilation-plan-idUSKCN1S22B5

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

My issue with the fact that his condemnation of Maduro has been brought up is that it was treated as being somewhat unique. It most certainly is not. Over 50 countries have thrown their support behind Guiado, many from the most democratic countries in the world. 

 

Yeah, and unsavory types like Bolsonaro  are among those who are supporting Guiado. The point is that it's not pure altruism and care about human rights thats driving countries to support Guiado. 

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Lets see who backs the current government: Russia, China, Iran, Turkey, North Korea, Bolivia, Cuba and a few other. What exemplary nations, but still with the exception of NK, none of them come close to Venezuela in its current state. 

And? Yes these countries are supporting Maduro because  his regime has proved beneficial to them or at least the the powers that control them. The reasons for a lot of the countries currently in support of Guiado is that they think his regime will prove beneficial to them. Not because they think he is good thing for Venezula. Not because they value the purity of Demokracy oh so much.

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

I’m going to address the points you brought up in your discussion with @Tywin et al.. The biggest problem here is that you’ve decided to make this all about the US. 

No. I'm not the one arguing for a US backed coup in Venezuela being a  good thing. Those actively pushing the US to militarly intervene are the ones making this conversation about the US. 

7 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

This has clouded people’s judgments. On some level, there is merit to that, but not when it becomes the sole point of contention.

 The current regime wishes to stay in power and will do whatever possible to discredit the opposition. Maduro is using the situation with the US because he knows that it gives him his best chance at garnering support. He’s already convinced a good segment of the left. 

The ultimate result is that the population is condemned to suffer his competence because they get to stick it to the US. When that becomes the sole purpose of the discussion, then Houston we have a problem. 

I'm sorry but it appears your vision is the one that's been clouded.

The ultimate result of the US staging a coup in will  be the country being under a puppet of theirs who will put US interests over his own people-human rights, and democracy simply are not going to be a priority  hence the track record of individuals the US supported turning out to be pretty authoritarian to say the least. It's ridiculous to pretend now it'll somehow be diffrent in Venzezua.

 

And please, not wanting dollars to be used to some more "freedom-fighters" to wage war in a foreign country that is no way threatening the US isn't' "sticking" it to the US-it's sticking it to neo-cons use to the pretext of caring about preserving democracy, and human rights and other nice things, to lull populace into supporting getting rid of whatever regime they'd like to disposeThe US has/ allied with as bad/hell even worse regimes than Maduro. Yet a lot of the peple crying for the US to stage a coup or militarliy intervene don't talking about those US friendly Authoratarian regimes that are killing loads of innocents and causing immense suffering upon their people, and around the world. 

"You're against the US if you don't support x US intervention" is a way to silence discussion. right along with "You support dictators if you don't support this coup" 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

Yemen, et al. Uncounted numbers of people dead thanks to the US 'intervention, aid and assistance, and complicity.'

As you biill yourself up as an expert on Latin America, how good is your spoken, writing and reading Spanish?  How many Venezuelans have you had dinner with in the last six months?  How many other Latin Americans and people from the Caribbean and Central America have you had conversations with in the last six months.  I mean, personally, face to face?  And how many Latin American publications (the printed press is still really The Thing in Spanish speaking countries), have you read conscientiously in the last six months?

None, but all my friends in South America agree that Maduro has to go, and by any means necessary. There's a reason why nearly the entire continent recognizes Guaido as the legitimate president of Venezuela. But go on defending one of the worst regimes in the world...

[Conflicting Thought]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

None, but all my friends in South America agree that Maduro has to go, and by any means necessary. There's a reason why nearly the entire continent recognizes Guaido as the legitimate president of Venezuela. But go on defending one of the worst regimes in the world...

Jesus the ignorance that you are displaying is why its horryfing for us, latin american people, when the US goverment, and US people, talk about intervining other countrys in the name of "democracy", and your oh so preocupied attitud, that speaks volumes of your ignorance and big daddy complex. You have no fucking idea of what you are talking about.

And House Balstroko, sounds like a fascist, homophobic, racist defender of Bolsonaro, expressing incredibly ignorant views. So much so that i thing you are an enabeling full, if not a proud right wing extremist. 

[mormont]

[mod] I get that emotions may be high, folks, but let's be civil. Do not flame each other and don't pick at other users for their preferred posting style. Try to approach this as a discussion, not an argument, please. Thanks. [/mod]

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Jesus the ignorance that you are displaying is why its horryfing for us, latin american people, when the US goverment, and US people, talk about intervining other countrys in the name of "democracy", and your oh so preocupied attitud, that speaks volumes of your ignorance and big daddy complex. You have no fucking idea of what you are talking about.

And House Balstroko, sounds like a fascist, homophobic, racist defender of Bolsonaro, expressing incredibly ignorant views. So much so that i thing you are an enabeling full, if not a proud right wing extremist. 

You do realize you're talking to a liberal political activist, right? As to my "ignorance," I'm well aware of the wariness of South Americans when it comes to U.S. interventions, and yet at the same time, every person I've spoken to in South American is open to Western interventions in Venezuela because Venezuela has been a disaster for a decade. Every single one of them has maintained that Venezuela is the one country in South America that they wouldn't want to travel to if they could avoid it. 

[Spockydog]

49 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

None, but all my friends in South America agree that Maduro has to go, and by any means necessary. There's a reason why nearly the entire continent recognizes Guaido as the legitimate president of Venezuela. But go on defending one of the worst regimes in the world...

I'd really like to know what makes Guaido the 'legitimate president' of Venezuela. Remind me, how many elections has he won?

Also, that's two failed coups for the CIA and their puppet. I guess the Venezuelan generals must not be watching enough American news channels.