International thread 2

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I'd really like to know what makes Guaido the 'legitimate president' of Venezuela. Remind me, how many elections has he won?

It depends on how you want to interrupt the Venezuelan Constitution. When there’s no legitimate President, the President of the National Assembly of Venezuela becomes the interim President. Guaido is the President of the National Assembly of Venezuela, and most independent observers believe that Maduro is an illegitimate President who won through fraudulent elections.  

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Also, that's two failed coups for the CIA and their puppet. I guess the Venezuelan generals must not be watching enough American news channels.

Or maybe they’re just protecting all their stolen wealth.  

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

What examples do we have of U.S. backed coup's improving things for S. Americans?

This entire situation reeks of a Bolton led attempt towards "resource grabbing". We all know Venezuela has immense oil reserves and whenever we see that, we see the U.S. military industrial complex, big oil and the warhawks wagging the dog till they get control of those resources. This is an old song ive heard it too many times.

[Spockydog]

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It depends on how you want to interrupt the Venezuelan Constitution. When there’s no legitimate President, the President of the National Assembly of Venezuela becomes the interim President. Guaido is the President of the National Assembly of Venezuela, and most independent observers believe that Maduro is an illegitimate President who won through fraudulent elections.  

 

Fraudulent or not, at least Maduro has won an election. Also, show me any elections that aren't fraudulent these days. Yours? Ours? You have got to be kidding. And look, just because Guaido and the USA declared Maduro's presidency illegitimate doesn't make it so.

Also, please spare me any more handwringing over the plight of ordinary Venezuelans. The humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is a direct result of US meddling. The sanctions have been devastating.

[House Balstroko]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Fraudulent or not, at least Maduro has won an election. Also, show me any elections that aren't fraudulent these days. Yours? Ours? You have got to be kidding. And look, just because Guaido and the USA declared Maduro's presidency illegitimate doesn't make it so.

Also, please spare me any more handwringing over the plight of ordinary Venezuelans. The humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is a direct result of US meddling. The sanctions have been devastating.

It’s not just the US that recognises Guiado. If it were, you’d have a valid point. It’s not like everyone is just rushing to support the Trump administration at every corner, or else nations would all be moving their embassies to Jerusalem, would be encouraging further sanctions on Iran and would all be rushing to leave the Paris Agreement (though some have brought up the last one for their own reasons).

I’m against the American withdrawal from Paris and the Iran deal. 

 

No, the local government has been wrecking the economy for the past 20 years. It was already going downhill during Chavez time, but he was at least still mildly competent. The same cannot be said about Maduro, who is just plain dumb. Many of those who have abandoned over the years were once hardcore Chavistas. 

[Spockydog]

10 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why do you guys keep making this just about the U.S.? 

Um, because it isn't Norway that's been actively destabilizing Venezuela for the past twenty years.

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Clearly you haven't read my posts about the House of Saud

Hmm you’ve seriously argued for the US to stage a Coup/militarily intervene in Saudi-Arabia to oust the Saudis from power off the basis of their human rights abuses against its’ citizens? If so kudos. 

[Heartofice]

I’m interested to know what people would want to do about Maduro, who has been a disaster for the country, without some form of intervention? Or should we just ignore it?

[Varysblackfyre321]

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I’m interested to know what people would want to do about Maduro, who has been a disaster for the country, without some form of intervention? Or should we just ignore it?

I’m interested to know what you think the reason is for there being so much interest in the idea of foreign military intervention in Venezuela as opposed to all the other(particularly the ones happen to have policies not disfavoble to the west) facing catastrophe due to corrupt/incompetent/authoritarian leaders that have really hurt their country.

 Should the US declare war on all countries that have been recognized as being run by authoritarians? 

Do you seriously not know on how often that has been used as an excuse to justify imperialism and how disastrous it could be to the people the Imperialist power(s), supposedly wants to help?

I would hope to allow the people of Venezuela to handle it themselves. Anyone seeking sanctuary I would hope the countries condemning Maduro would help accommodate them.

However I think a lot of those pushing in power pushing  for military intervention  have less than  benign intentions and I don’t see the type of military intervention being pushed for here leading to less suffering, or a free Venezuela.

[Larry of the Lawn]

20 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It depends on how you want to interrupt the Venezuelan Constitution. 

 

Freudian slip?

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m interested to know what you think the reason is for there being so much interest in the idea of foreign military intervention in Venezuela as opposed to all the other(particularly the ones happen to have policies not disfavoble to the west) facing catastrophe due to corrupt/incompetent/authoritarian leaders that have really hurt their country.

 Should the US declare war on all countries that have been recognized as being run by authoritarians? 

Do you seriously not know on how often that has been used as an excuse to justify imperialism and how disastrous it could be to the people the Imperialist power(s), supposedly wants to help?

I would hope to allow the people of Venezuela to handle it themselves. Anyone seeking sanctuary I would hope the countries condemning Maduro would help accommodate them.

However I think a lot of those pushing in power pushing  for military intervention  have less than  benign intentions and I don’t see the type of military intervention being pushed for here leading to less suffering, or a free Venezuela.

This is seemingly the circular discussion you’ve been having these past few pages. I’m genuinely asking you a question as to what the rest of the world should do when a country like this goes to ruin. Is your answer to simply do nothing? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

48 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

This is seemingly the circular discussion you’ve been having these past few pages. I’m genuinely asking you a question as to what the rest of the world should do when a country like this goes to ruin. Is your answer to simply do nothing? 

And I made my position clear repeatedly. This is an internal conflict specific to Venezuela. Allow them to handle the dispute of who should rule their country by themselves. The vast majority of Venezuelans have been shown to not support  foreign intervention to remove Maduro(do their opinions literally mean nothing?). So no, I don’t think other countries should militarily intervene. What they can/should do is offer any sanctuary they could afford to any  refugees seeking asylum. 

And I’m genuinely asking you why you think there’s so much interest in this idea of militarily intervening in Venezuela? There are a lot of dictatorships in the world with tons of people suffering as result. Why do you think there’s so much buzz being floated around this idea of doing regime change in Venezuela when Maduro would be far from the only authoritarian in South America?

 Do you know how often seemingly benign things like  “humanitarian aid” have been a cloak for imperialism? 

Should the US, and “West” be able to intervene in any country they see as being run by authoritarians? 

[Heartofice]

Ok just wanted to check your answer was to do nothing.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

15 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Fraudulent or not, at least Maduro has won an election. Also, show me any elections that aren't fraudulent these days. Yours? Ours? You have got to be kidding. And look, just because Guaido and the USA declared Maduro's presidency illegitimate doesn't make it so.

Also, please spare me any more handwringing over the plight of ordinary Venezuelans. The humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is a direct result of US meddling. The sanctions have been devastating.

How does winning a fraudulent election give anyone bona fides?  That’s like claiming someone throwing weighted dice or playing with marked cards “at least won the game”.

Fraudulent Electoral wins create no mandates.

Further if “all elections are fraudulent” democracy, representative or otherwise has no more validity than pure dictatorship, absolute monarchies, or unabashed oligarchies.  Democracy’s entire basis for validity is that most elections are not fraudulent.

ETA:

For the record foreign military intervention in Venezuala is a horrible idea.  It will make an already terrible situation exponentially worse.  I can’t stand Maduro but the Venezualan people need to deal with him without our being involved.

[Varysblackfyre321]

31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Ok just wanted to check your answer was to do nothing.

And I just wanted to make sure I was reading your lack of care about the majority of Venezuela not wanting foreign intervention, and are freely comfortable with other countries being allowed to dictate who rules Venezuela correctly. 

And that you don’t actually want to talk why there is such a large push to use the military/force to remove Maduro, from other countries and what benefits could be reaped for some proponents  pushing military intervention.

Or how to the pretext of “protecting the oppressed people of x nation” has been a justification for  exploiting a nation.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And I just wanted to make sure I was reading your lack of care about the majority of Venezuela not wanting foreign intervention, and are freely comfortable with other countries being allowed to dictate who rules Venezuela correctly. 

And that you don’t actually want to talk why there is such a large push to use the military/force to remove Maduro, from other countries and what benefits could be reaped for some proponents  pushing military intervention.

Or how to the pretext of “protecting the oppressed people of x nation” has been a justification for  exploiting a nation.

I’m not disagreeing with what you are saying. It just seems like a bit of a diversion.

But the alternative is to sit back and do nothing seemingly, which sounds worse. The world might now have moved away from intervening in problem counties, holding its hands up and waving responsibilities  but then what is to be done in disaster zones like this.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How does winning a fraudulent election give anyone bona fides?  That’s like claiming someone throwing weighted dice or playing with marked cards “at least won the game”.

Fraudulent Electoral wins create no mandates.

 

Righto. Tell that to the nutters trying to wreck my country in the wake of a fraudulent and illegal referendum. 

 

 

 

 

[Conflicting Thought]

Why is the people that want world intervention (USA), so obsessed with Venezuela?. Venezuela is not THE worst country in the world, its not there that the worst human right violations are taking place, its not there the only place that has systemic corruption, or poverty.

Like Varys said, why are you people not saying anything like thisbof other countrys that are so much worse in all the things you claim to care of Venezuela. Why this incredible preocupation with this one country?. Why stop in Venezuela, you could intervine in all countrys that you view as failed states. But for some reason your only concern is for the people of Venezuela. 

I dont buy it, and i think its very strange. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Righto. Tell that to the nutters trying to wreck my country in the wake of a fraudulent and illegal referendum. 

 

 

 

 

The Brexit Referendum?  I’m not going to claim to understand all the ins and outs of the British legal system but I am curious, was it being called “fraudulent and illegal” before the leave vote won?  If so, why?  

The EU seems to believe it is binding even if the British Parliament cannot figure out how to implement it.  If the vote was “fraudulent and illegal” why does the EU accept it as valid?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Why is the people that want world intervention (USA), so obsessed with Venezuela?. Venezuela is not THE worst country in the world, its not there that the worst human right violations are taking place, its not there the only place that has systemic corruption, or poverty.

Like Varys said, why are you people not saying anything like thisbof other countrys that are so much worse in all the things you claim to care of Venezuela. Why this incredible preocupation with this one country?. Why stop in Venezuela, you could intervine in all countrys that you view as failed states. But for some reason your only concern is for the people of Venezuela. 

I dont buy it, and i think its very strange. 

So, the “Fallacy of relative privation”, for the win?  This is a “whataboutism” argument at its finest.  If “whataboutism” doesn’t work for Trumpanistas when they throw “whatabout her emails???” Every time someone demonstrates Trump’s illegalities why is “whataboutism” a legitimate way to attack someone who is concerned about Maduro’s Government in Venezuala?

[Spockydog]

10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The Brexit Referendum?  I’m not going to claim to understand all the ins and outs of the British legal system but I am curious, was it being called “fraudulent and illegal” before the leave vote won?  If so, why?  

The EU seems to believe it is binding even if the British Parliament cannot figure out how to implement it.  If the vote was “fraudulent and illegal” why does the EU accept it as valid?

You clearly understand nothing at all about Brexit. Just Google brexit+Cambridge analytica+electoral commission. That should fill in the gaps. 

Our government is behaving as if the crimes of Vote Leave just did not happen. Also, the referendum is not binding, but our political leaders are behaving as if it is.