International thread 2

[Mindwalker]

His speech was so, so embarrassing. 90 percent accusations, conspiracy theories, The Media, and he was totally set up... I share your hopes, Wolfgang.

Press conference supposedly at 19.45 pm.

[Mindwalker]

Wait, I think Kurz is just ending the coalition. Damn. Now I might have a smidge of respect for him,which in turn makes me feel dirty.

[Luzifer's right hand]

18 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

Wait, I think Kurz is just ending the coalition. Damn. Now I might have a smidge of respect for him,which in turn makes me feel dirty.

I have no respect for him at all.

I believe that he thinks that he can pull a Schüssel and hopes to get 40%+ after the election.

That way he could form a neo-liberal coalition with the NEOs and could double down on his unsocial party program.  

[sologdin]

so the fascist member of y'all's governing coalition has been exposed offering public work contracts in exchange for election campaign funds?  i assume this is violative of local election statutes? 

[Mindwalker]

1 hour ago, sologdin said:

so the fascist member of y'all's governing coalition has been exposed offering public work contracts in exchange for election campaign funds?  i assume this is violative of local election statutes? 

Not my government, but I think it was in exchange for supposedly buying a newspaper, firing certain journalists, and writing propaganda to help with the election.

[Spockydog]

Israeli soldiers. Great bunch of lads.

 

 

[Heartofice]

What is the context of this video? Where was it taken and what was the kid doing previously to this?

Id also note that the dogs are not torturing him, one of them has gripped the kids pants.

Also noting the ‘I’m not anti Semitic but..’ opening line

[Spockydog]

You know, as I posted this I wondered how long it would be before HoI, or one of the other usual suspects, turned up and took the soldiers' side.

He was probably throwing stones. But, you know, it doesn't matter what he's done.

He. Is. A. Fucking. Child.

 

 

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

You know, as I posted this I wondered how long it would be before HoI, or one of the other usual suspects, turned up and took the soldiers' side.

He was probably throwing stones. But, you know, it doesn't matter what he's done.

He. Is. A. Fucking. Child.

 

 

So if this kid who is , I dunno how old, had just killed some Israelis or tried to, having a dog grab his pants is the thing that is worrying you?

 

btw I’m not taking the soldiers side, but if you are going to as usual make wild claims and post videos with no context then you deserve to called on it

[Spockydog]

Just now, Heartofice said:

So if this kid who is , I dunno how old, had just killed some Israelis or tried to, having a dog grab his pants is the thing that is worrying you?

 

You want context. Here you fucking go.

Military still using dogs to attack Palestinian civilians

Quote

 

At approximately 2 P.M. on Tuesday, 23 Dec. 2014, a confrontation developed between several dozen Palestinians and soldiers in the Special Security Area (SSA) surrounding the settlement of Carmei Tzur, south of Beit Umar in the West Bank. The area is the site of frequent confrontations between soldiers and Palestinian residents of Beit Umar, whose land was appropriated for the settlement and the SSA.

The SSA, which is supposed to serve as a buffer zone that no one but security forces may enter, was established on privately-owned Palestinian land. The owners need to obtain a special permit to reach and cultivate their land, but such permits are issued for only several days a year. In contrast, security forces allow settlers free access to the stolen land. 

Video filmed by B’Tselem camera volunteer Muhammad ‘Awwad. The footage shows the soldiers with the attack dogs on village land and the arrest of 16-year-old Hamzeh Abu Hashem, but not the attack itself. Further on, soldiers are seen taking the teen into the SSA and locking the gate behind them, after which Palestinians verbally confront them, demanding his release. A settler, probably the settlement’shead of security, is seen cocking his weapon and the soldiers do nothing to stop him. 

During the confrontation, Palestinians threw stones at soldiers, who responded with use of crowd control weapons. About an hour after the incident began, at around 3 P.M., two soldiers arrived on the spot with two dogs, who were captured on video by B’Tselem volunteer Muhammad ‘Awwad. According to eyewitness reports, one of the dogs (seen lunging forward at the beginning of the footage) attacked and bit one of the Palestinians confronting the soldiers, 16-year-old Hamzeh Abu Hashem. The soldiers then removed the dogs, handcuffed Abu Hashem, and took him to the settlement of Carmei Tzur. From there, he was taken by ambulance to an Israeli hospital. Abu Hashem’s family reported that he was arrested and taken from hospital to Ofer Prison.

 

 The linked video was shot during this horrific terrorist attack. It was leaked on Israeli media.

Setting military attack dogs on anyone, let alone children and elderly civilians, is unacceptable. Yet I'm sure you'll be back shortly, defending the indefensible. 

[Heartofice]

So is the article you posted talking about the same incident? So the video in the original tweet is from 2014? 

[Spockydog]

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

So is the article you posted talking about the same incident? So the video in the original tweet is from 2014? 

I believe so. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

7 hours ago, Spockydog said:

 

The SSA, which is supposed to serve as a buffer zone that no one but security forces may enter, was established on privately-owned Palestinian land. The owners need to obtain a special permit to reach and cultivate their land, but such permits are issued for only several days a year. In contrast, security forces allow settlers free access to the stolen land. 

The above is absolutely inexcuseable, any objective person can see there is something wrong with a state that discriminates like this.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

The above is absolutely inexcuseable, any objective person can see there is something wrong with a state that discriminates like this.

Problem is, the debate around Israeli crimes is anything but objective. 

[Conflicting Thought]

9 hours ago, Heartofice said:

What is the context of this video? Where was it taken and what was the kid doing previously to this?

Id also note that the dogs are not torturing him, one of them has gripped the kids pants.

Also noting the ‘I’m not anti Semitic but..’ opening line

Dogs are wildly use for repression and torture, they dont even have to bite you for it to be torture. You have to be pretty moraly bankrupt to defend this actions. 

What possible context could justify something like this?. 

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Dogs are wildly use for repression and torture, they dont even have to bite you for it to be torture. You have to be pretty moraly bankrupt to defend this actions. 

What possible context could justify something like this?. 

Dogs are used by police forces around the world in order to contain and apprehend dangerous threats and criminals. Saying it’s morally bankrupt to use dogs is ridiculous and I’m sure you know it.

Now whether it was appropriate to use a dog in this situation I’m still not sure. I’m no defender of Israel’s tactics in general, but it’s also widely known that Hamas often uses children for a variety of purposes, and being 16 doesn’t make that kid a total innocent.

Hamas also have a very good PR team that tend to post a lot of videos of out of context stuff. This is why I tend to question it when this stuff is posted up, it’s never as black and white as it appears.

Again, I don’t even think I need to repeat that I’m not in favour of much of Israel’s behaviour and actions, much of which I find abhorrent, but clearly I’ll probably need to keep saying that. But we also need to be conscious of the context in which these events happen and understand the nature of the internet. Anyone saying there is some sort of simple answer to what is happening over there clearly hasn’t got a clue.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Well part of the context I see is that paragraph I quoted, where we see private land being confiscated, unequal rights for the peoples who have been on those lands and not surprizingly, we see rebellion to such restrictions.

I just watched a documentary on the Islamic State and a huge motivation for the attempt to establish the new caliphate that spanned through Syria and Iraq was to declare that they do not recognize the Sykes Picot borders.

Israel only exacerbates and fuels continuing conflict when it expands the settlements and disenfranchises Palestinians who should have rights as landowners too.

I am sick of both sides and the unending behavior that draws the whole World into their bullshit.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Again, I don’t even think I need to repeat that I’m not in favour of much of Israel’s behaviour and actions

Why would you not?

In this thread, you've gone from 'the kid was throwing rocks' to 'he killed or was trying to kill Israelis' without missing a beat. You seem totally unwilling to consider that anything in that video might be out of order regardless of the context. You've argued for assuming the very worst of the kid and the very best of the soldiers.

If someone seeing that assumes you are in favbour of much of Israel's behaviour and actions, why would they be wrong to do so?

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Now whether it was appropriate to use a dog in this situation I’m still not sure. I’m no defender of Israel’s tactics in general, but it’s also widely known that Hamas often uses children for a variety of purposes, and being 16 doesn’t make that kid a total innocent

Isn't this a perfect example of toxic whatabautism? What does Hamas has to do, with judging if the use of dogs in this case is ok or not. 

[The Anti-Targ]

I tend to err on the side of, unless it's rockets being lobbed into Israel from the West Bank or Gaza or a suicide bomber, it's probably the Israeli military / police that are using excessive violence for the situation.

I'm willing to be shown that the context demonstrates the IDF / police actions were justified and proportionate, but guilty until proven innocent is my default. So I don't ask "but what if the kid was being a dick?" I ask, "What the hell? explain yourself Israel!" and if they offer a reasonable explanation I say "OK, fair enough". What I'm not going to do is offer a vague explanation for why they might not be the bully in the situation that has less basis in fact than the image or video in question. 

Starting a tweet "I'm not an anti-Semite but..." is never a good start. Because it suggests what is about to follow could fairly be judged as such, or worse, you actually are anti-Semitic. If I'm going to criticise someone of another race for doing something reprehensible I'm not going to preface it "I'm not a racist, but..." and if I'm going to criticise a woman for a wrongdoing I'm not going to say "I'm not sexist, but".

The end of the 2nd international thread is nigh. I think we've hit on a formula that allows for ongoing discussion of things other than US and UK politics, and things about Australia.