Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If making a dragon means kill a human, it is so their soul goes into the dragon.  A WW sacrifice would work the same way, sacrificing a baby would not make a baby white walker any more than the dragons' bodies resemble their sacrifices. 

I agree in theory, but since Mance has been leaving his sons out in the woods for probably 20 years, it likely has nothing to do with the white walkers who have reappeared in only the last few.

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree in theory, but since Mance has been leaving his sons out in the woods for probably 20 years, it likely has nothing to do with the white walkers who have reappeared in only the last few.

One thing to note, In the prologue, we are shown a seasoned ranger of the Watch feel the presence of the Others and want to just run away. When we finally see them, it is because they want to be seen. My guess is that Craster's sons may have been taken, without anyone knowing any better. Plus his wives seem to know that the Walkers are coming and refer to the cold as "The boy's brothers". I get the sense that they have felt this before. 

[JRRStark]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There are a number of theories and none of them universally agreed. Its not in our nature as heretics to produce a creed.

My own feeling is that they that originally they were the old lords of Winterfell transformed by magic and akin to the Nazgul in their nature. Like the Janissaries and Mamelukes they maintain or perhaps increase their numbers not by breeding [GRRM after all said they are a different form of life] not by but by taking tributes as recruits, ie; latterly Craster's sons.

Their motive? A desire to recover what they have lost.

Ok that make sense. Completely left field here then with no evidence but if we are looking at big difference with mummers tale, what about Jon becoming to see the world from their side. As in hes dead, a Stark (whichever theory we believe), He becomes what the CotF wanted in a way push back the Andals, allow everyone including the CotF to live in peace and the Starks to be the bridge or protectors between 'new' men and the old world. Perhaps these walkers were once and double crossed the CotF and got made into what they are to do the job they promised. Jon somehow bridges these worlds. Ok this isn't a theory, mere ramblings but better than Jon being on the throne or being a tragic hero having sword plunged into his heart to save the world (or even doing same to dany). Bit too lame and don't know if GMMR has a Shakespearean lean to him. 

[SirArthur]

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the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men

Somehow this creates an image in my mind of Leaf and a tribe of children. Leaf walked the world of man, surely a tribe of Leafes could appear to be a tribe of First men.

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

There are so many clues that the wildlings are the Others that there's a whole thread with evidence. Rather than bring it all over here you can read about it over there.

I went and read that entire thread. Tucu was the only one that seemed to agree with you and numerous others were just as confused as I am. I am just going to keep believing my theory, have fun wit yours. 

[Melifeather]

43 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

One thing to note, In the prologue, we are shown a seasoned ranger of the Watch feel the presence of the Others and want to just run away. When we finally see them, it is because they want to be seen. My guess is that Craster's sons may have been taken, without anyone knowing any better. Plus his wives seem to know that the Walkers are coming and refer to the cold as "The boy's brothers". I get the sense that they have felt this before. 

Most of Craster's wives started out as his daughters and only know what happens when you give birth to a son - he's taken from you and you'll never see them again. Your father/husband says he's going to give them to the old gods as a sacrifice to keep everyone safe - safe from his black blood curse. It's the power of suggestion, really, and the real fear of loss and harm to your unborn child. A very cold night, then, would be cause for fear and dread. It's a reminder of what is waiting (or coming) for a newborn child.

LC Mormont said that it is known that the wildlings burn their dead, yet strangely there are also graves in the north. Mance, Ygritte, Tormund, and other wildlings dug up graves under the excuse of looking for Joramun's horn of winter. Where did these graves come from if the wildlings burn their dead? If you ask me the wildlings have only been burning their dead since Mance left the Watch to become one of them, and that prior to this they used to bury the dead. Opening up old graves were done on purpose to release wights.

19 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I went and read that entire thread. Tucu was the only one that seemed to agree with you and numerous others were just as confused as I am. I am just going to keep believing my theory, have fun wit yours. 

No worries! It's all good. 

[Brad Stark]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

LC Mormont said that it is known that the wildlings burn their dead, yet strangely there are also graves in the north. Mance, Ygritte, Tormund, and other wildlings dug up graves under the excuse of looking for Joramun's horn of winter. Where did these graves come from if the wildlings burn their dead? If you ask me the wildlings have only been burning their dead since Mance left the Watch to become one of them, and that prior to this they used to bury the dead. Opening up old graves were done on purpose to release wights.

No worries! It's all good. 

I don't think we should assume funeral customs North of the Wall remained unchanged for 10,000 years.

That said, the change is interesting, especially if it is only recent.  Maybe they buried their dead until the dead started coming back as wights, then realized burning them prevented that.

Is there any evidence Mance sacrified his children?

[asongofheresy]

Since the first post is about the twist of George and how it isn't possible in mummer's show due to them killing a character early - could this be a reference to Doran or Tyrells? Or the Lannisters like Tommen, Myrcella and Lancel? 

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think we should assume funeral customs North of the Wall remained unchanged for 10,000 years.

That said, the change is interesting, especially if it is only recent.  Maybe they buried their dead until the dead started coming back as wights, then realized burning them prevented that.

Is there any evidence Mance sacrified his children?

I don't know when the change occurred. I just noticed the contradiction and wondered if the change was more current? As for Mance, the only child mentioned as being his is Aemon Steelsong - the one currently with Sam and Gilly.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Since the first post is about the twist of George and how it isn't possible in mummer's show due to them killing a character early - could this be a reference to Doran or Tyrells? Or the Lannisters like Tommen, Myrcella and Lancel? 

I'm guessing the character he killed off must have been a major character for George to get stuck. If it were a relatively minor character, he should have been able to find a way to utilize a different minor character for whatever it was he needed the dead one to do. I don't know why, but crazy as it seems, my brain thinks it's Ned.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Since the first post is about the twist of George and how it isn't possible in mummer's show due to them killing a character early - could this be a reference to Doran or Tyrells? Or the Lannisters like Tommen, Myrcella and Lancel?

The trick here is that GRRM said in early 2016 that the show already had killed this character.  So the character was dead as of the end of season five.

[asongofheresy]

@Feather Crystal and @JNR since I never watched the show sadly I have no definite idea about who this character could be, is it possible Catelyn is the twist? 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

The trick here is that GRRM said in early 2016 that the show already had killed this character.  So the character was dead as of the end of season five.

My money is on Jon Snow. It has that Martin sense of humor and doesn't give away any spoilers for the books. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

The trick here is that GRRM said in early 2016 that the show already had killed this character.  So the character was dead as of the end of season five.

I think this interview is about something else. The show killing off a character that he's planned a big twist for sounds different than what he told Diana Gabaldon about a year ago:

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“I’m having all kinds of trouble. Have you ever killed somebody off that you later realized that you needed?…I just painted myself into a corner.”

Diana told him:

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“But you have an imagination…So if you paint yourself into the corner, I said, what you do is you get a new bucket of paint and you paint yourself back out and do the floor behind you. I mean, you can revise history — it’s easy if you try.”

 

[Brad Stark]

Martin's comments indicate a character dead on the show and alive in the books, which rules out Cat. But still leaves too many possibilities to guess, although I am guessing Barristan. 

I disagree on it being a major character, although extremely minor characters never made it onto the show.  If it turns out to be a reveal Mance is someone's father or son, it may not work swapping characters.  But a lot of possible reveals could involve swapping one major character for another, similar to how Arya apparently took Cat's place killing Freys. 

[Melifeather]

You don't think George is talking about two different things? One is about a plot twist for a character that is alive in the books, but dead on the show, while the other is about a dead character in the books that GRRM would like to be alive in order to finish Winds.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think this interview is about something else. The show killing off a character that he's planned a big twist for sounds different than what he told Diana Gabaldon about a year ago

Yes, it is different.  But it's the first one that seems the bigger deal, because he dreamed it up in 2015, then pondered it for months, then decided to do it, and then did interviews stating that.

The other thing is indeed more or less the opposite.  He killed somebody and wished he hadn't, and it seems awkward for him as well, though I don't know that he pondered it for months, as I do the above.

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

since I never watched the show sadly I have no definite idea about who this character could be, is it possible Catelyn is the twist? 

First, my congratulations on the wisdom of only reading the books and never watching the show.  You have, in this way, completely bypassed the mental pollution that has brought so much irritation into most of our lives.   Whatever you chose to do with your time other than watch the show has no doubt been far more productive and useful.

Second, no, I don't think she qualifies.

However, a recent thought from me: Rhaegar's son Aegon may very well qualify. It just relies on his turning out to be real, as opposed to fake, in the books.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Feather Crystal and @JNR since I never watched the show sadly I have no definite idea about who this character could be, is it possible Catelyn is the twist? 

I don't know why it couldn't be Catelyn. The show never moved forward with the Lady Stoneheart story and the plot twist could be with her. I know one of the things about Lady Stoneheart that I hold a personal theory about is Brienne's choice: "noose" or "sword". While GRRM has confirmed "sword", I think there's actually more to it than simply one word. I think Brienne reminds Lady Stoneheart about the promise Catelyn made to her:

Quote

 

Perhaps I did not want to be the only one who knew the dark truth of what had happened there, Catelyn thought. "Brienne, I have taken many wellborn ladies into my service over the years, but never one like you. I am no battle commander."

"No, but you have courage. Not battle courage perhaps but . . . I don't know . . . a kind of woman's courage. And I think, when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis."

Catelyn could still hear Stannis saying that Robb's turn too would come in time. It was like a cold breath on the back of her neck. "When the time comes, I will not hold you back."

 

 

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Feather Crystal and @JNR since I never watched the show sadly I have no definite idea about who this character could be, is it possible Catelyn is the twist? 

It's a character that would have died in the first five seasons, but is still alive in the books, and GRRM has a notablog post that effectively functions as a good list of prospects:
 

Quote

Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes… but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways.

As far as I can recall, the only character missing from that list is Jojen--he died in season 4 of the show, while his status in the books might be considered undetermined, depending on whether or not the "Jojen Paste" theory pans out.

Other aspects of the twist are that it "involves three or four characters," and the show (supposedly) cannot do the twist; IMO, the latter implies that not only can the show not pull off the twist verbatim, but that they can't easily shift the twist to another character.

For example, any twist that involves Pyp could probably just be shifted to a different NW character, whereas characters like Stannis and Myrcella occupy more unique roles.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't know why it couldn't be Catelyn. The show never moved forward with the Lady Stoneheart story and the plot twist could be with her.

Possibly, and I wouldn't want to put GRRM's extemporaneous comments on the twist under too much of a semantic lens, so Catelyn should be a consideration. In fact, the removal of Stoneheart is one of the changes that GRRM is most vocal about, saying it was a big point of contention with D&D--as recently as an interview with the Chinese edition of Esquire in 2017, he was characterizing it as the biggest change between the two stories.