Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[Brad Stark]

I think we can all agree it is strange Ned would tear down the tower and build cairnes instead of returning the bodies, if that even happened.  We can be certain he didn't return the bodies.  But I don't see this having much bearing on if the Tower of Joy fight really happened or if everyone died there - although I don't see him carrying the bodies from elsewhere to the tower to build the cairnes.  Any or all of the combatants could have died elsewhere and been buried elsewhere, and that doesn't seem to affect the story all that much. 

I speculated that maybe one of the 'buried' is still alive, and that is why Ned couldn't return their body.  Fun theory, but a bit too much tinfoil to be true.

The only reasons I can come up with are either that the bodies weren't in a condition to return (unlikely if they could be returned as bones) or some or all of the men involved did not want their bodies returned.  I do believe, from the tone of what material we have, Arthur and company felt they weren't long for this world, and could have made final requests.

Having dealt with a nagging (now ex) wife, I can see Lord Willam request to be buried as far away from Barbrey as possible - although that doesn't explain the others.

[asongofheresy]

On 3/15/2019 at 2:35 PM, Brad Stark said:

The show combines the two, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lysono claimed to be Aegon VI.   He has an interesting sword in the trailer some speculate is Blackfyre. 

I bet Blackfyre becomes relevant in the books and that the Golden Company would have it.  Having this sword would almost certainly prove he's a Blackfire. 

Lysono claims he's only seen 1 male Targaryen, which is strange.  How many females do you think he's seen?  My guess is his mother was a Blackfyre. 

 

 

Spoiler

I am confused about the second part of the quote because I feel like my answer to another member has been editing but I understand if you messed up trying to quote like I do too

I think Lysono Maar might be a member of House Rogare from Lys? Because I always felt like Daario Naharis is the Blackfyre of our story but Lysono Maar never claims to see a female Targaryen if I remember right, the male Targaryen would be Aegon since he wasn't there when GC met Viserys. But D&D can't portrait the Chaotic Neutral of Lysono. 

[JNR]

On 3/15/2019 at 2:48 AM, Jova Snow said:

I do think Aegon is possible true born but the show never cared about Elia or her children so I don't know if they will include him for a late twist especially when they combined his character with Jon's

Sure. I don't think he's an active character on the show or ever will be.

He's simply a character who predates the events of the show, like the Mad King, Elia, etc. 

Like them, he is explicitly mentioned on the show and hence he exists as a character there, just as he does in the books, and like them, he is dead.

But in the books, it is not at all clear he is dead, and in fact, there's a very straightforward, common-sense argument to be made that he is not dead, that virtually no one on the forums ever makes for some reason. 

On 3/14/2019 at 9:49 PM, Brad Stark said:

Unlike the show, the books introduced a character claiming to be Ageon.  There is nothing to preclude the show from doing the same thing, so there is no reason him being dead on the show and not in the books could preclude him being used in the twist the same way.  It cannot be him.

The idea that in the very last season, a season of only six episodes, D&D could suddenly introduce Aegon and build an entire subplot around him seems improbable at best.  I think it's quite clear he's really dead on the show.

[JNR]

On 3/15/2019 at 8:42 AM, Feather Crystal said:

He could have been thinking metaphorically. Building cairns could be interpreted as causing the deaths of his men.

I suppose it's possible, but the phrasing seems quite clear:

Quote

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

This also, of course, shows us how tiny the TOJ really was. 

Folks in another place have, rather amusingly, often imagined it as a kind of Hilton hotel, with a large staff performing a variety of tasks in service of Rhaegar and Lyanna for the better part of a year. 

Where all these servants would even sleep in this tiny tower is not clear -- I'm not sure the TOJ had such a thing as a bed, sheets, a bathtub, etc.  It was a tiny tower in the middle of nowhere, full stop.

On 3/15/2019 at 8:42 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I'm thinking it's not customary to return everyone's remains back home. It might be quite expensive, and why should Ned be responsible for all those dead bodies?

Well, first, we know factually that it is customary for other highborn families to expect this. 

We know it because Lady Dustin, who is not a Stark, is still boiling damn mad at Ned for not returning her husband's bones, and instead, only returning his horse... while simultaneously taking the time and effort to return Lyanna's to Winterfell, which she saw as a blatant double standard, which it was.

She tells in ADWD:

Quote

Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests

Furthermore, she's still furious at Ned over this more than a decade and a half later.  Even though Ned is dead, she's still furious at him over it. 

Because the very next thing Lady Dustin says is:

Quote

… but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.

So it's very hard to imagine Ned didn't see this kind of conflict coming.

Beyond this, however, I think it's quite plain Ned would have taken the time to return the bones of his companions who died at the TOJ if he possibly could have.

They weren't anonymous faces in a huge battle like the Trident, and this wasn't wartime.  These were his close personal friends who literally died right in front of him, in the service of his personal cause after the war was over:

Quote

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once

If they died for him, the very least he could do for them would be to return their bones to their families, just as he returns the horse to Lady Dustin. 

It's not the norm to return horses, in such case I'm sure... but it's Ned we're talking about, and he went the extra honorable mile.

As for Dayne -- the Sword of the Morning, the "finest knight Ned ever saw," whom Ned admires deeply -- I mean, come on.  Starfall was his very next stop.  And still it didn't happen.

So I have no doubt Ned would have returned the remains of the eight TOJ dead, if he could have, but unfortunately it seems there was no way to do it.  So he did the best he could instead -- burial and cairns.

Yet there obviously was a way to return Lyanna to Winterfell, so he did.  Which implies, heavily, that she did not die at the TOJ.

Now I'd also like to point out one more thing.  The TOJ dream doesn't say, and never even implies, that she died there.  It only implies that she was there, and that she gave birth.

The death part has only ever existed in the imaginations of fans.

[SirArthur]

I really don't get the point made around the Dustin stallion. We know that Ned and his buddies had at least 7 horses when they arrived, we can assume the KG had their own. There is enough transport capability. He simply choose to bury the corpses there with the stones of the "tower", which is a very practical solution. 

I don't know why house Dayne would open the cairn or why Lady Dustin is mad about a soldier buried far away. That seems to be a rather common end for a soldier.  

The entire problem seems to evolve around the Lady Lyanna bone special delivery service. Lady Dustin has a point there. The question is why she thinks Lyanna was at the same place as Lord Dustin. Because Ned rode south ? 

I honestly think Lady Lyanna's statue is the solution to a lot of open questions and somebody should open it. 

[alienarea]

The problem is that if Ned rides from the fight at the ToJ straight to Starfall returning Dawn to the Dayne family, why not return his body?

This implies Arthur Dayne either died

- much earlier

- in another location

- left a corpse that could not be shown (???)

- did not die but ...

- ???

None of the above makes it a good cause for Lyanna dying at the ToJ.

 

 

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I am confused about the second part of the quote because I feel like my answer to another member has been editing but I understand if you messed up trying to quote like I do too

I think Lysono Maar might be a member of House Rogare from Lys? Because I always felt like Daario Naharis is the Blackfyre of our story but Lysono Maar never claims to see a female Targaryen if I remember right, the male Targaryen would be Aegon since he wasn't there when GC met Viserys. But D&D can't portrait the Chaotic Neutral of Lysono. 

Quote

Lysono: I am flattered. The women of House Targaryen are said to be without peer in all the world.
Arianne: And the men of House Targaryen?
Lysono: Oh, even prettier. Though if truth be told, I have only seen the one.

The male Targaryen has to be Aegon.  It is not impossible he saw Viserys, but he definitely saw Aegon and would not deny Aegon is Targaryen after pledging support. 

However the more relevant question is how many female Targaryens he has seen.  While literally true, this is weird phrasing if he only saw 1 Targaryen, who happened to be male, and never saw a female.  I think this phrasing implies he has seen at least 2 female Targaryens - Daenerys is probably one, but who is the other?

Would a Blackfyre consider themselves a Targaryen?  They were legitimized, but seem to avoid using the name.  If so, does that means he isn't a Blackfyre (Since he has seen himself)?  If not, then it is even harder to find a second female that he saw.

BTW - This entire discussion has no relevance on whether Aegon is real or Lysono Maar believes him to be.  Having declared support for Aegon, Lysono Maar would not deny Aegon is legitimate, even if he knew he was a fake.

[Brad Stark]

Is it even possible Lysono Maar would support Aegon if Lysono was a Blackfyre and believed Aegon was real?  The Blackfyre's believed Daemon was the legitimate King.  If Lysono was a Blackfyre, even by the female line, wouldn't he want himself on the throne instead of supporting the grandson of an usurper?  Lysono is the one who makes the case to back Aegon instead of Dany - could his real motive for doing so be wanting a Blackfyre instead of a Targaryen on the throne?

Varys and Lysono are both spymaster's, and Illyrio and Lysono are both covered in a ridiculous amount of gems and jewelry.  Could the 3 share a deeper connection than we've seen before?

Is it possible Vary's real name is Viserys?  Viserys II had a father named Daemon, so I wouldn't be surprised if that name turned up on in the Blackfyres.

Do we know for certain the Blackfyre line really even died out on the male line?  Maelys killed his cousin Daemon for control of the Golden Company, so if Daemon had a son, or there were any other males - especially too young to fight, I can certainly see them staying hidden.

[Mullocose]

Ever noticed how close the Tower of Joy is to Horn Hill? Is Samwell Tarly aged approximately to have been present at the Tower of Joy?

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

None of the above makes it a good cause for Lyanna dying at the ToJ.

Yeah, but that has always kind of been the situation as the location makes no sense when there are safe castles around. 

[SirArthur]

49 minutes ago, Mullocose said:

Ever noticed how close the Tower of Joy is to Horn Hill? Is Samwell Tarly aged approximately to have been present at the Tower of Joy?

It is possible. I don't know where Randyll Tarly was during the siege of Storms End. For me the second Targaryen host at Storms End was always the most logical location to flee to and regroup. Plus the location was close to Dragonstone and the fleet, so there was still a chance to turn the situation around. That has always been the point I don't understand. Not that it was not done, more like that it was not tried. 

That is also the reason why I am so suspicious about Margaery and Loras. There is something fishy in the way they behave since book one. Like a second communication layer.

[Mullocose]

Sam is definitely not Randell's son...

Imagine that I have posted numerous quotes backing my assertion, here:

"Quotes"

"Bad-Ass Quotes"

...

Who the heck is Samwell? 

Aegon?

Or someone else?

...

is Sam's fat ass 'the prince that was promised'?

[Mullocose]

the name of the family sword, the name of the family seat... & Sam likely has the horn of winter... (horn hill)... 

[Black Crow]

There is of course the matter of "they"in Lyanna's death scene.

As has been pointed out many times before this suggests a location other than the actual tower

A possible scenario therefore is that after the fight the dead were buried where they lay and that Lord Eddard and his faithful side-kick took the sword and the horses down to Starfall to find Lyanna. At some point afterwards, the Starfall people came out to the tower with them to demolish it and raise the cairns over the dead where they had died together. The point being that not carrying the bones north was a deliberate decision rather that a matter of practicality - although Lady Barbrey ought to appreciate in any case that a live horse is a lot easier to transport than dead bones.

[St Daga]

On 3/9/2019 at 10:02 AM, JNR said:

On this, I'm just going to post, for the amusement of my fellow Heretics, a very recent quote from Vanity Fair:

Quote

Still, the implication for years has been that while Weiss, Benioff, and their writers may have taken a few detours along the way—ones Martin may or may not approve of—they’re ultimately headed toward the same goal, and the same general ending, that the author laid out to them years ago. So rest assured that Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen are Jon Snow’s parents in the books, as well as on the series.

-- Joanna Robinson, Vanity Fair

The idea here seems to be that Jon's parentage is known to be an incredibly important fact for the books -- much too important to change across mediums.  This writer also apparently assumes that GRRM told the show-runners what that parentage was.

But none of that is established.  It's just RLJ dogma.

In fact, I would ballpark the odds at two in three that Ms. Robinson will be eating her words... if TWOW ever comes out at all, and if it pulls back the curtain on the solution to this particular mystery.

I actually wonder if this reveal won't come in the show, also. D&D act like they have at least one more "shock" and I think that shock might debunk RLJ. I still remember a quote from Dan and Dave talking about when they discussed Jon's mother/parents, and that they gave an answer that was "shocking". What is so shocking about RLJ? 

Quote

He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

This is a quote from Weiss in that article. RLJ is actually implied a fair amount in the story line of the novels, so I don't think it's a "shocking" answer at all, if that was their answer. This is one of those odd quotes that makes me think it's actually NOT RLJ. Of course, the show has pretty much pushed RLJ in our face for the last two seasons, so there might be no way around that being the story they are telling.

 

16 hours ago, Mullocose said:

Ever noticed how close the Tower of Joy is to Horn Hill? Is Samwell Tarly aged approximately to have been present at the Tower of Joy?

I am about 90% sold on the concept that Samwell Tarly is Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia. His age in the story throw's me off just a bit, since I think that Aegon should be approx a year older than Sam thinks he is. If Sam was sent to the wall on his 16th nameday instead of his 15th nameday, then I think it fit's quite well.

[St Daga]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:27 PM, JRRStark said:

As to the ending it is to be 'bittersweet' so the sweet some Stark revenge the bitter some favorite characters die or some nasty ones live and perhaps win the game of thrones while the good ones win the story of ice and fire. The mummers version must surly be distracted by GoT but is it relevant. A king in the North would satisfy the north whatever happens down south.

I think that the bittersweet ending will involve Benjen Stark in some way. I don't have much to go on, mostly a gut instinct, but "bittersweet" is only used twice in the text. Once from Jon, when thinking of his "bittersweet" good byes at Winterfell before he left for the wall, and once from Tyrion, when he is washing down his breakfast with "bittersweet" black ale. So, bittersweet connects to Winterfell, the Wall, "black" ale. 

When looking at bitter AND sweet in the text, it is only mentioned a handful of times. Usually it's in regards to opposites, such as "The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good", or "Give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths", or "And now my sweet sister sends me to finish the work that Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane began. It left a bitter taste in his mouth". But the one that sticks out to me the most is the very first time bitter and sweet are used together in the text.

Quote

Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too. ACOK-Bran VII

GRRM is bringing our attention to Bitter and Sweet, and he is connecting it to the name Benjen! Of course, we don't know the stories in relation to Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, and we might not ever hear them, but there is something that seems like a wink from our author in regards to the name Benjen and bitter and sweet. Our Benjen Stark is missing north of the wall, he hasn't been seen since early in AGOT. But for some reason, I doubt he is dead. He might end up dead at some point, or he is dead and risen, but my guess is that the "bittersweet" ending will in some way involve Benjen Stark.

[Frey family reunion]

23 hours ago, JNR said:

Now I'd also like to point out one more thing.  The TOJ dream doesn't say, and never even implies, that she died there.  It only implies that she was there, and that she gave birth.

To be fair, I’d argue that the TOJ doesn’t imply that she was at the tower of joy or gave birth to the tower of joy.  The dream is separated into two distinct scenes, separated by a surreal image 

Quote

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming.  “Eddard!” She called.  A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Then presumably the scene shift to “Lyanna in her bed of blood”.  Even though it seems that Eddard is woken up before we get a real glimps of that scene.

But we don’t know that Lyanna’s bed of blood was in the “tower long fallen”.  Only that the dream consisted of three parts in Ned’s mind: 1.  Three knights in white cloaks 2. Tower long fallen and 3. Lyanna in her bed of blood.

We can associate 1 and 2 together because Ned verifies the fight between the three kingsguards and his companions in his memory and he associates the fight and their burial with the tower of joy being a bitter memory.  But nowhere in his memories does he associate Lyanna’s death with the tower of joy.

Obviously he makes a connection between 1. The three knights of the kingsguards and 2. The tower long fallen with 3. Lyanna in her bed of blood.  But that connection does not have to be one of immediate location and time.  In other words Ned can be making a connection between his battle at the tower of joy with Lyanna being on her death bed without that connection being that Lyanna was actually in her bed of blood in the tower long fallen.

ETA: and the fact that GRRM warns a reader about taking a fever dream too literally at least implies that GRRM is warning the reader about assuming that Lyanna was inside the tower of joy based on Ned’s dream.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There is of course the matter of "they"in Lyanna's death scene.

As has been pointed out many times before this suggests a location other than the actual tower

A possible scenario therefore is that after the fight the dead were buried where they lay and that Lord Eddard and his faithful side-kick took the sword and the horses down to Starfall to find Lyanna. At some point afterwards, the Starfall people came out to the tower with them to demolish it and raise the cairns over the dead where they had died together. The point being that not carrying the bones north was a deliberate decision rather that a matter of practicality - although Lady Barbrey ought to appreciate in any case that a live horse is a lot easier to transport than dead bones.

I’d argue a more compelling reason for Ned traveling from the tower of joy to Starfall, than taking returning a sword.  I would suggest that Ned travelled to the tower of joy with a small number of hand picked men he could trust because his mission wasn’t to free or find Lyanna, but instead his mission was to find and free Lyanna’s child.  

And the reason he makes the hazardous journey back to Starfall wasn’t really to return a sword, but instead to bring Lyanna’s child back to her at Starfall.

[Brad Stark]

I'd appreciate the irony if Dickson is really not Randyll's son and Sam is. 

Sam is, in many ways, a character grrm wrote to represent himself.   I don't believe he'd write himself in as the prince who was promised or hero or savior. 

[Brad Stark]

Conversation keeps going back to the Toj, and not the questions that matter.  If the location is wrong or something else, unless it affects the story, it is irrelevant. 

What were Arthur's orders from Arys? 

Why did Ashara kill herself? 

Why was Ned there?  If it was for Lyanna, how did he know she was there?