Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, JNR said:

I would agree with this, except that GRRM went well out of his way to introduce Lady Dustin and all her fiery rhetoric in ADWD, calling attention to Ned's apparent double standard and how it affected others, and thus introducing a striking contrast with the super-honorable Ned we have known from earlier books... assuming she died at the TOJ, that is.

I agree that GRRM is stressing a point by bringing in Lady Dustin. She's not just "filler", but rather an integral step towards a revelation. You and I may differ on what that revelation might be, but her story line is important.

You have to question whether or not Lady Barbary would be just as upset if she felt the Rebellion was a "just cause". If she was a supporter of the Rebellion, it's hard for me to believe she would have much to "hate" about Ned. It's not Ned's fault that his father took Brandon from her, but keeping her dead husband's remains from her would certainly be upsetting, but would it be enough to foster the kind of hatred she feels towards Ned - and after so many years? 

I'm trying to get in the mind frame of Lady Barbary's character by thinking of real world situations. During the Civil War, bodies were left laying where they fell for weeks. This didn't change until pictures began appearing in newspapers, and then President Lincoln was forced into authorizing national cemeteries with the most famous, Arlington National Cemetery, established on Robert E Lee's estate. The generals of WWI were very resistant to bringing home dead soldiers and tried to convince the public that it was more honorable to bury the dead where they fell, but we did end up shipping more than 700,000 dead home, shocking our allies. 359,000 of our dead from WWII were buried overseas where they fell, but again, we ended up recovering and returning 281,000 home. The families of the slain were given a choice on how best to honor their dead, so it would seem the majority wanted them left where they were first buried.

Returning to Lady Barbary's mind set on her dead husband...she apparently didn't want to honor her husband by leaving his remains buried where he was slain. She wanted his remains back. Could her deep feelings on the subject be fueled by something else? Was she dismayed that he even left to fight in the first place? Maybe she never supported the Rebellion? Maybe she knows something that the reader doesn't? 

Back in 1971 (I know, way too early for most of you) Daniel Elsburg leaked the Pentagon Papers, which was a 7000-page (ASOIAF length!) report ordered in 1967 by then Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara. McNamara was at first, a supporter of the war, but became very frustrated as it stagnated. The study began with the US involvement with Vietnam from 1945, to the beginning of the war in November of 1955, until the release of the report in June 1971. The war didn't end until 1975 and straddled the Presidencies of Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, and Ford. The report demonstrated a credibility gap between what was happening and what our government actually did. It revealed that every President from Truman to Nixon knowingly deceived the American public. 70% of the reasons why our government continued this war for 20 years was to hide the fact that America had been and was losing. After The New York Times and The Washington Post published stories about the report, public support for the war vanished. Returning soldiers were humiliated with crowds of protesters. The American public was very angry.

I'm telling you all this, because I get the sense that GRRM is flavoring ASOIAF with a small dash of this kind of sentiment. We should expect some characters that protested the Rebellion or at least demonstrate the anger of a "duped" public, and I believe Lady Barbary is one of these formerly "duped" characters that has somehow learned some truth after the war, and maybe even well after - maybe even after arriving to Winterfell.

 

48 minutes ago, JNR said:

If Ned found her there and moved her to Starfall, where she died, that would simply fall logically into place.

Are you saying Ned heard her screaming from Starfall all the way up in the Princes Pass, screamed her vocal chords raw until she could barely whisper by the time he arrived?

27 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I am just not sold on Lyanna being there. I think that Ned is conflating at least two, but probably three incidents in his fever dream. One incident involves the three white cloaks, one incident includes a tower long fallen, and one incident involves Lyanna in her "bed of blood" whatever the heck that could actually mean. Hopefully, time will tell and we can get an answer about this...

I too believe Ned is conflating at least three events into one dream, because they somehow go together. I think it's possible that Ned and his men fought the three Kingsguard during the Sack at Maegor's Holdfast, then found Lyanna dying in the black cells. It's also possible that not all of his men had died yet, so any survivors rode with him to Storm's End to lift the siege, then rode with him to return Dawn to Starfall. I suspect Ned and his men were surprised by some holdouts that didn't know the war was over near an old lookout tower in the Prince's Pass. Being that Ned and Howland were the only two survivors, they buried the dead where they fell, and then continued on to Starfall. Perhaps this is when Lord Dustin died and Ned didn't think he could impose on Starfall to prepare any of the dead? I've said all along that the men at the tower in the Prince's Pass weren't the Kingsguard, so if Arthur died back in Kings Landing, it wouldn't have been practical for Ned to wait for his bones to be prepared so that he could bring them with. 

2 minutes ago, St Daga said:

So, it that vein, perhaps Barbrey hates Ned because he took a child from her, probably at the same time he brought that Red Stallion home to her. SSM's hint that Brandon could have had a bastard, an although I doubt it's a boy, there is some possibility that it could be Ramsay Snow. He is the other noted "Snow bastard" in the north in our storyline. Something about Ramsay claiming he is the trueborn heir to Winterfell, stands out to me. Ramsay is also associated with liking fierce, fast horses and has his red stallion, Blood. Also, there is that one time when Theon thinks that Barbrey's smile is very like Ramsay, an ugly smile. 

I suspect that Lady Barbary knows Ned lied about something that she has only recently learned about. It's hard to believe she's been angry for over 17 years unless whatever she knows is pretty current. Something that has reopened old scars. 

2 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Although, I honestly hate to think that Brandon Stark could have fathered a child that is as awful a human as Ramsay! Domeric Bolton is also a possibility, he he is noted to be a fabulous rider, which could hint at either Brandon's riding skills, or the Ryswell connection with horseflesh! It's more likely it could be Domeric, because Barbrey truly seems to mourn him.

I thought Domeric was close to Brandon in age, but the wiki indicates that he was born sometime between 279-281. (Brandon born in 262) Domeric served four years as Lady Barbary's page. His mother Bethany, is Barbary's sister so Barbary is Domeric's aunt. That is where the affection comes from.

[Melifeather]

Looking at the map again...it looks like the Kingsroad ends at Storm's End. Has anyone ever really looked at this? If Rhaegar had abducted Lyanna he might opt to skip going to Storm's End and take a land route to Summerhall. But, leading south from Summerhal is the Boneway mountain pass, which is further east than the Prince's Pass. You also have to go through the Dornish Marshes to reach the Prince's Pass. If the end goal was Starfall, wouldn't you rather sail there? The Prince's Pass doesn't even get you to Starfall - it just gets you into Dorne. Starfall looks very protected by land. As a matter of fact it's located on an island in the Torentine River. The river itself has high canyons on either side and the river is a series of rapids and waterfalls. After studying the map, I cannot see how anyone could get from the Prince's Pass to Starfall without going over the mountains and then scaling steep canyon cliffs. It would have been more sensible for Ned to sail from Storm's End to Starfall if he actually did return Dawn, making me think that the reason why Ned didn't return the remains of his men was because he needed to disguise where they died.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Ramsay unmistakabley has his father's eyes. 

Well, Roose tells us it was Ramsay's eyes that are the reason that he claimed the boy, and he says out loud that Ramsay is his bastard, but Ramsay and Roose's eyes are different. Roose's eyes are pale (like strange, pale moons or  paler than stone and darker than milk), much paler than Ramsay's, while Ramsay's eyes are noted to be like dirty chips of ice (Ice, another Stark connection). I see that as a distinction between the two men and their eye color, although Roose tells Reek/Theon that Ramsay has his eyes. But honestly, Ramsay is nothing like Roose, in appearance, and really not in behavior, either. Maybe Ramsay needs a good leeching...

 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

It seems to me only to say Brandon didn't have any legitimate Stark children, it doesn't rule out him having children assumed to be legitimate from a different father or legitimized into a different family.  He didn't outright say it, but it sounds like he is saying Brandon had bastards but they aren't part of the story. 

The bolded part could be an important distinction, for sure, and GRRM is tricky like that. The way I have interpreted GRRM's comments on Brandon's possible children is that he had no legitimate children, and if he has bastards, they are probably girls OR a boy that was born after Brandon's death. Allyria Dayne or Dany could be possibilities for a bastard daughter for Brandon. I think Val could also be a possibility for a bastard girl. Or as you say, they won't matter to the story. But no legitimate children, male or female, for Brandon Stark.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I too believe Ned is conflating at least three events into one dream, because they somehow go together. I think it's possible that Ned and his men fought the three Kingsguard during the Sack at Maegor's Holdfast, then found Lyanna dying in the black cells. It's also possible that not all of his men had died yet, so any survivors rode with him to Storm's End to lift the siege, then rode with him to return Dawn to Starfall. I suspect Ned and his men were surprised by some holdouts that didn't know the war was over near an old lookout tower in the Prince's Pass. Being that Ned and Howland were the only two survivors, they buried the dead where they fell, and then continued on to Starfall. Perhaps this is when Lord Dustin died and Ned didn't think he could impose on Starfall to prepare any of the dead? I've said all along that the men at the tower in the Prince's Pass weren't the Kingsguard, so if Arthur died back in Kings Landing, it wouldn't have been practical for Ned to wait for his bones to be prepared so that he could bring them with. 

I am inclined to think that all of Ned's men died at the same location, and the three kingsguard, too, mostly because in Ned's memories, not fever dreams, he recall's building the cairns.

Quote

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. AGOT-Eddard X

This seems to fit the idea that Ned remembers that Jory's father died "far to the south" and "with the rest" and Ned then pulled "the tower" down and used it's stones to build "eight cairns". The eight cairns in one location makes me think they died at the same place, and their bodies lay under cairns in the location where they died. However, this idea of a "tower" being pulled down for the cairns, really messes with my idea that the tower of joy is a nickname for a natural rock formation, a tor that was nicknamed a tower by Rhaegar! I don't see how Ned pulls down a tor.

Although, I think it could be argued that if these men died in different locations, the place where their cairns, the burial marker to honor them, is all in the same location. GRRM is tricky like that. A body in one location but a headstone in another, as a memorial, I suppose.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I suspect that Lady Barbary knows Ned lied about something that she has only recently learned about. It's hard to believe she's been angry for over 17 years unless whatever she knows is pretty current. Something that has reopened old scars. 

I think there is something more to Ned and Barbrey's story. It's quite unusual that she was not remarried after her husbands death, so she could produce an heir, even if it was an heir to the Dustin lands, even though she is a Ryswell. We see some hint's of this with Lady Hornwood's situation. It seems imperative that she remarry so her lands can be claimed, and as their overlords, it is Winterfell's decision to make. Bran outlines this story, as he is acting lord for Robb. So, why did Ned, Lord of Winterfell, not see to Barbrey's remarriage? We are missing some information, I think.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I thought Domeric was close to Brandon in age, but the wiki indicates that he was born sometime between 279-281. (Brandon born in 262) Domeric served four years as Lady Barbary's page. His mother Bethany, is Barbary's sister so Barbary is Domeric's aunt. That is where the affection comes from.

There is some oddness with Domeric's age, mostly because Roose tells us that he could outrun "Lord Rickard's daughter". This could be Lyanna, the daughter of Rickard Stark, which would make Domeric older, OR it could be, and probably is, Alys, the daughter of Rickard Karstark, which fit's the idea of him being Barbrey's page. I know the connection between Barbrey and Domeric's mother Bethany. But there is something off in this story. I don't think that Domeric was Roose's son, he sounds nothing like Roose. I do wonder if Brandon could have an affair with one Ryswell sister, why not the other? It's probably very unlikely, but there is something off about the Roose/Domeric/Ramsay situation.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

After studying the map, I cannot see how anyone could get from the Prince's Pass to Starfall without going over the mountains and then scaling steep canyon cliffs. It would have been more sensible for Ned to sail from Storm's End to Starfall if he actually did return Dawn, making me think that the reason why Ned didn't return the remains of his men was because he needed to disguise where they died.

I think it's also possible that Ned could have traveled down the Boneway, and then over to Starfall. Of all the sigil's that Ned thinks about during the Hand's tourney, one is Dornish, and it belongs to House Wyl, who's lands lie along the Boneway. Ned mentions a "blackadder" sigil, and House Wyl's sigil is a "black adder biting a heel". Now, it's also possible that GRRM was simply nodding his head at the Blackadder comedy series when he put this in Ned's thoughts. An homage of sorts. However, the boneway ends at Yronwood, and then south of that is sand, but then you could travel west through the desert toward Starfall.  I think that makes more sense than the Prince's pass, but passes do indicate easier places to travel through mountain ranges, so the Red Mountains of Dorne probably can be traversed without too much trouble. A ship would probably be fastest, but isn't the southern coast of Dorne hard to navigate by ship and there are supposedly not good places to port. Kojja Mo tells Sam that the coast of Dorne is nothing but sand and scorpions and no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues. Still, Starfall might be a good place to port.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

The simplest and best explanation for that, IMO, is that a significant amount of time passed between the TOJ and her death.  And in that time, she either got worse, or else she developed the problem that killed her.

 If Ned found her there and moved her to Starfall, where she died, that would simply fall logically into place.

But why would Ned have moved her to Starfall of all places?  Especially after he just killed Arthur Dayne, and married Cat instead of Ashara Dayne.  

I think if Lyanna was at Starfall ( and I suspect she was) then she was brought there by either Rhaegar and/or his kingsguards.  It’s the most defensible fortification in control of the family of his closest confidant.  

Ned’s dream is the flimsiest piece of evidence that Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy.  Our dreams can associates two different memories other than those memories being in the same time and location.  I hate to keep coming back to this SSM but:

Quote

Q: I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this  

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

A: You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Why is GRRM cautioning not to take Ned’s dream too literally?  Ned’s memory of the events corroborates fighting the three kingsguards at a place Rhaegar named “tower of joy”, and Ned’s memory corroborates being with Lyanna when she elicited a promise from him.

But Ned’s memories never corroborate that Lyanna was actually inside or at the tower of joy.  So for the above reader to assume that Lyanna is in the tower, she is basing this assumption on Ned’s dream.  And Ned’s dream only.  And GRRM then cautions her not to take the dream too literally.

As for Ned’s memory of three kingsguards, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood, Ned is describing his dream not an actual event.  In other words Ned has a recurring dream of the three kingsguards a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood.  His subconscious at least is associating these events together, which is why he dreams of these events.  But that’s not the same thing as Ned having a memory of Lyanna being inside the tower of joy. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I am inclined to think that all of Ned's men died at the same location, and the three kingsguard, too, mostly because in Ned's memories, not fever dreams, he recall's building the cairns.

Quote

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. AGOT-Eddard X

IMO Ned is thinking that Jory's father is buried further south than Jory's grandfather. Jory's grandfather is buried at Winterfell, so Jory's father could have been buried anywhere south of Winterfell and still be "far to the south" - not necessarily just south of Kings Landing. 

Here's what I'm thinking. As soon as Ned married Catelyn he was ineligible to marry Ashara. Since I'm coming from the position that Ned brought Ashara back to Winterfell when he went there to call his banners, I think he intended to marry her after the war. Once he married Catelyn, Ashara had to leave. Of course this would necessitate that Ned communicate with Ashara after the Battle of the Bells. He could do this via raven or courier, but there does seem to be some time between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle at the Trident when the troops reorganized, although even I question if there was enough time for Ned to go all the way home and back. Whatever the details were, Ashara left Winterfell, but left Jon behind with Wylla. When Ned returned home he had Catelyn and Robb with him, and Jon and Wylla were already at Winterfell.

If Ned knew of Ashara's "suicide" in advance of the Sack, and during the course of the war his men died, he could have created the story that he returned Dawn to Starfall to help elaborate the lie. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Dawn were hidden at Winterfell along with some maps that show how the Prince's Pass does not appear to be a viable route to Starfall. If I were Lady Barbary and saw this sword and map, I'd wonder where the hell my husband was buried and why Ned lied about it.

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

There is some oddness with Domeric's age, mostly because Roose tells us that he could outrun "Lord Rickard's daughter". This could be Lyanna, the daughter of Rickard Stark, which would make Domeric older, OR it could be, and probably is, Alys, the daughter of Rickard Karstark, which fit's the idea of him being Barbrey's page. I know the connection between Barbrey and Domeric's mother Bethany. But there is something off in this story. I don't think that Domeric was Roose's son, he sounds nothing like Roose. I do wonder if Brandon could have an affair with one Ryswell sister, why not the other? It's probably very unlikely, but there is something off about the Roose/Domeric/Ramsay situation.

I haven't checked out the wiki's references for placing Domeric's birth year, but if the wiki is close to correct then the Lord Rickard that Roose is thinking of is Rickard Karstark and his daughter is Alys, who we know is a fine horseman. BUT, we also have Harwin's account that Arya rides like her aunt and like a northman, so we are persuaded to connect some dots....but why?

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I think it's also possible that Ned could have traveled down the Boneway, and then over to Starfall. Of all the sigil's that Ned thinks about during the Hand's tourney, one is Dornish, and it belongs to House Wyl, who's lands lie along the Boneway. Ned mentions a "blackadder" sigil, and House Wyl's sigil is a "black adder biting a heel". Now, it's also possible that GRRM was simply nodding his head at the Blackadder comedy series when he put this in Ned's thoughts. An homage of sorts. However, the boneway ends at Yronwood, and then south of that is sand, but then you could travel west through the desert toward Starfall.  I think that makes more sense than the Prince's pass, but passes do indicate easier places to travel through mountain ranges, so the Red Mountains of Dorne probably can be traversed without too much trouble. A ship would probably be fastest, but isn't the southern coast of Dorne hard to navigate by ship and there are supposedly not good places to port. Kojja Mo tells Sam that the coast of Dorne is nothing but sand and scorpions and no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues. Still, Starfall might be a good place to port.

Whether you take the Boneway or the Prince's Pass you end up in the same place - in the desert and on the east side of more mountains. You cannot travel west over the mountains to Starfall. The mountains don't have any passes going west, and it appears that Starfall is protected by high canyon walls. The only safe way to get there is by boat or ship.

52 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why is GRRM cautioning not to take Ned’s dream too literally?  Ned corroborates fighting the three kingsguards at a place Rhaegar named “tower of joy”, and Ned’s memory corroborates being with Lyanna when she elicited a promise from him.

But Ned’s memories never corroborate that Lyanna being at the tower of joy.  So for the above reader to assume that Lyanna is in the tower, she is basing this assumption on Ned’s dream.  And Ned’s dream only.  And GRRM then cautions her not to take the dream to literally.

I agree that there doesn't seem to be any real reason for the Kingsguard to fight Ned if they were "protecting" Lyanna. If you've read my theory that Maegor's Holdfast is the real tower of joy, then you'd know it's my opinion that the Kingsguard were guarding Elia and her children.

I think it's also notable that all of Ned's men - including Howland - were wraiths in his dream. I feel this is a clue, but not because they were dead. Howland survived, but he was still a wraith. Why? I'm thinking it's because they weren't actually with Ned when he fought the Kingsguard. He only imagines them as being with him. 

If the three Kingsguard were separated with one at the bottom of the stair, one at the drawbridge, and one guarding the door to the royal apartments, Ned could have fought each one of them in single combat...that is until he got to Arthur Dayne, who I believe was guarding the door. Arthur was undefeatable when he held Dawn, so the only thing I can think of that would mess Arthur up is if Howland literally got in his head. Howland has special gifts - skinchanging might be one of them. He could've slipped into Arthur and confused him enough for Ned to kill him.

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, The Chequered Raven said:

I like this thought!

So Lyanna's "Promise me! Ned, promise me!" could have meant "promise me to find and rescue my son!"

Maybe, but there are several different scenarios that can be considered, assuming that Lyanna wasn’t in the tower of joy.  Because after all, Ned had to have gone to the tower for a reason, and this reason did not seem to involve Robert Baratheon, but only involved a small number of people that from all appearances would have been extremely loyal to the Starks.

So what would Ned have a concern about around this time frame that he had to keep a tight secret and something that could not have involved Robert Baratheon?  The most logical reason that Ned would have gone on a secret mission to the tower of joy is that it involved, not Lyanna, but a child of Lyanna’s.  Specifically a child that was known not to have been Robert’s child.

Perhaps in order of likelihood:

1.  Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall, and like Elia, after the birth of her first child was left bedridden because of a difficult pregnancy.  The Kingsguards take Lyanna’s child.  Ned after locating Lyanna (or having someone close to Ned locate Lyanna) sets forth on a mission to find Lyanna’s child and return the child to her.  Ned tracks them down at the tower of joy.  Ned retrieves Jon, and he and Howland return Jon to Starfall because Lyanna’s located at Starfall.  (Which in my opinion is a much more compelling reason to travel to Starfall than returning a sword to House Dayne).  Lyanna’s death then occurs after Ned returns to Starfall. 

2.  Lyanna gives birth to twins at Starfall.  The kingsguards take one of the twins.  Ned finds Lyanna at Starfall. She elicits a promise from Ned and then she dies.   He and his company set out to find the Kingsguards that took Lyanna’s child, but they have to leave Lyanna’s other child behind at Starfall, because they can’t take him or her with them.  They find the other child at the tower of joy, kill the kingsguards and then return to Starfall because that’s the location of Lyanna’s other child whom they have to retrieve.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

It seems to me only to say Brandon didn't have any legitimate Stark children, it doesn't rule out him having children assumed to be legitimate from a different father or legitimized into a different family.  He didn't outright say it, but it sounds like he is saying Brandon had bastards but they aren't part of the story. 

You mean other than Jon Snow 

[Brad Stark]

Even if Ned was lazy, he had little trouble convincing 5 friends to die for him.  People who hardly know me convince me to move heavy things for them.  If he wanted help, he could easily get it. 

Those bodies are where Ned wanted them. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Those bodies are where Ned wanted them. 

 

Do we think it’s true that “the bones remember?”  And would young Ned have believed it?

If so, then maybe this is correct...

[Mullocose]

15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We have hints she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and certainly was a great horse rider. 

But we haven't discussed any version of the Toj fight that includes horseback, and with a sword on foot, I doubt she'd be a match for anyone on either side, even if she wasn't close to 9 months pregnant. And which side would she have fought on? 

Yes, I find it quite strange that the King's Guard members present failed to utilize the defensive capabilities of the tower to guard/protect...

It's almost as if they wanted to die in order to keep a secret...

Not unlike Areys Oakheart...

[Mullocose]

What would their secret have been? 

[asongofheresy]

On 3/16/2019 at 11:31 PM, Brad Stark said:

The male Targaryen has to be Aegon.  It is not impossible he saw Viserys, but he definitely saw Aegon and would not deny Aegon is Targaryen after pledging support. 

However the more relevant question is how many female Targaryens he has seen.  While literally true, this is weird phrasing if he only saw 1 Targaryen, who happened to be male, and never saw a female.  I think this phrasing implies he has seen at least 2 female Targaryens - Daenerys is probably one, but who is the other?

Would a Blackfyre consider themselves a Targaryen?  They were legitimized, but seem to avoid using the name.  If so, does that means he isn't a Blackfyre (Since he has seen himself)?  If not, then it is even harder to find a second female that he saw.

BTW - This entire discussion has no relevance on whether Aegon is real or Lysono Maar believes him to be.  Having declared support for Aegon, Lysono Maar would not deny Aegon is legitimate, even if he knew he was a fake.

I don't think Blackfyres would consider themselves Targaryens especially after the death of Daemon I and his sons. But we know both Aerion and Saera had bastards in Essos. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Mullocose said:

Yes, I find it quite strange that the King's Guard members present failed to utilize the defensive capabilities of the tower to guard/protect...

It's almost as if they wanted to die in order to keep a secret...

Not unlike Areys Oakheart...

That's because there was nothing in the tower to protect or defend. It was just an agreed meeting place for their formal rencounter. Compare the atmosphere with the first duel in The Three Musketeers

[SirArthur]

I don't even know any more what it means to be a female member of house Targaryen.

Unmarried daughter of a male Targaryen ? married a male Targaryen ? 

[SirArthur]

6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I don't think Blackfyres would consider themselves Targaryens especially after the death of Daemon I and his sons. But we know both Aerion and Saera had bastards in Essos. 

I guess bastards count as house members now. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I guess bastards count as house members now. 

Since Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized, "Blackfyre" became a legitimized last name. 

Aerion's bastard was Orys Baratheon, which may be a legitimized name since he was given Storms End and was titled Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Saera's children would most definitely be bastards with no recognized claim or even surname.

[Melifeather]

The Prince's Pass does not lead to Starfall. The Prince's Pass is an opening between the Red Mountains that connects the Dornish Marshes to the desert of Dorne. Think of it as a great valley. The West map of The Lands of Ice and Fire shows the tower of joy as being located on the eastern side of the pass with the seat of House Manwoody of Kingsgrave a very short distance to the south, which would be the most logical place to go if any help was needed.

If Ned indeed chose this route he would have an arduous climb over the Red Mountains and have to scale steep canyons just to get down to the river, which is full of rapids and waterfalls. Ned would need donkeys and mules. I have serious doubts that Ned went to Starfall over land. If he went there, he went by ship from Storms End, but that would have been difficult seeing that all of the Baratheon ships were destroyed. I guess he could have bought passage on a merchant ship, or maybe even Davos's ship..

Starfall is located on an island at the mouth of the Torentine River. Here are quotes about the Torentine:

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Most Dornish rivers are in full flood only after the rare (and dangerous) rainstorms. The rest of the year they are dry gullies. In all of Dorne, only three rivers flow day and night, winter and summer, without ever going dry. The Torrentine, arising high in the western mountains, plunges down to the sea in a series of rapids and waterfalls, howling through canyons and crevasses with a sound like the roar of some great beast. Rising from mountain springs, its waters are sweet and pure, but dangerous to cross, save by bridge, and impossible to navigate. 

The World of Ice and Fire

 

Quote

 

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.

The World of Ice and Fire

 

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Far off to the north, a haze was visible low on the horizon. Kojja pointed at it. "There is the coast of Dorne. Sand and rocks and scorpions, and no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues. You can swim there if you like, and walk to Oldtown. You will need to cross the deep desert and climb some mountains and swim the Torentine. Or else you could go to Gilly."

Samwell IV

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's because there was nothing in the tower to protect or defend. It was just an agreed meeting place for their formal rencounter. Compare the atmosphere with the first duel in The Three Musketeers

But why does Ned arrive at this meeting place with only a small hand picked group of men?  Wouldn’t Robert want a piece of the action or perhaps someone that Robert was close to?  The makeup of Ned’s “dirty seven” and the obvious secrecy surrounding their place of burial (even their wives are apparently not told where their husbands are buried or why) seems to imply that this was a secret mission.  

But my more significant issue is more from a literary standpoint than a logical one.  If Martin is going to tease a significant event at the tower of joy (i.e. Jon is Rhaegar’s rightful heir, Lyanna dies at the tower and makes Ned promise to protect her child, the usual pablum) and if that turns out to be a misdirect, then the reality of the event should have equal or greater significance to the overall story.

And by that I mean, either major significance to the external conflict of the story, or a major reveal or significance for a character’s internal conflict, or perhaps a combination of both.

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Prince's Pass does not lead to Starfall. The Prince's Pass is an opening between the Red Mountains that connects the Dornish Marshes to the desert of Dorne. Think of it as a great valley. The West map of The Lands of Ice and Fire shows the tower of joy as being located on the eastern side of the pass with the seat of House Manwoody of Kingsgrave a very short distance to the south, which would be the most logical place to go if any help was needed.

 If Ned indeed chose this route he would have an arduous climb over the Red Mountains and have to scale steep canyons just to get down to the river, which is full of rapids and waterfalls. Ned would need donkeys and mules. I have serious doubts that Ned went to Starfall over land. If he went there, he went by ship from Storms End, but that would have been difficult seeing that all of the Baratheon ships were destroyed. I guess he could have bought passage on a merchant ship, or maybe even Davos's ship..

I think this is a very valid point.  It also highlights the incongruity of Ned and Howland taking baby Jon, and Lyanna’s body with them to return a sword to Starfall.  Either they take an extremely arduous land route or they seek passage on a ship to travel around Dorne to arrive at Starfall with Jon to an unexpected welcome.  

Either option doesn’t seem a very good reason to pack up Jon and bring him to Starfall.  The only reason that I can think of (assuming of course that Jon was at the tower of joy) is that there is someone at Starfall they wanted to bring the child back to.

[Black Crow]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But why does Ned arrive at this meeting place with only a small hand picked group of men?  Wouldn’t Robert want a piece of the action or perhaps someone that Robert was close to?  The makeup of Ned’s “dirty seven” and the obvious secrecy surrounding their place of burial (even their wives are apparently not told where their husbands are buried or why) seems to imply that this was a secret mission.  

But my more significant issue is more from a literary standpoint than a logical one.  If Martin is going to tease a significant event at the tower of joy (i.e. Jon is Rhaegar’s rightful heir, Lyanna dies at the tower and makes Ned promise to protect her child, the usual pablum) and if that turns out to be a misdirect, then the reality of the event should have equal or greater significance to the overall story.

And by that I mean, either major significance the external conflict of the story, or a major reveal or significance for a character’s internal conflict, or perhaps a combination of both.

I think this is a very valid point.  It also highlights the incongruity of Ned and Howland taking baby Jon, and Lyanna’s body with them to return a sword to Starfall.  Either they take an extremely arduous land route or they seek passage on a ship to travel around Dorne to arrive at Starfall with Jon to an unexpected welcome.  

Either option doesn’t seem a very good reason to pack up Jon and bring him to Starfall.  The only reason that I can think of (assuming of course that Jon was at the tower of joy) is that there is someone at Starfall they wanted to bring the child back to.

As to your first point that's precisely why I'm arguing that it was a formal, pre-arranged rencounter rather than the culmination of a military expedition.

As to the rest JNR and I are in agreement that Lyanna was't lying inside receiving a running commentary on the fight from whatever passed for the domestic staff, and that instead Lord Eddard went elsewhere [probably Starfall] to pick her up.