Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[Melifeather]

I'm just curious why anyone would accept that Ned fought the three Kingsguard in the Prince's Pass at the assumed location of the tower of joy, and then believe that all his closest men were there with him? In the dream his men are all wraiths - including Howland. What do you think this means? In his dream Howland rides away with him, so we assume he's still alive. He'd have to remain alive in order to father Meera and Jojen, so why is he included with all the other men as being wraiths?

Another curious wording choice that I've been ruminating on today is calling Ned's men "Robert's van". Why wouldn't they just say Ned was racing south with his men or with the northmen? Is it possible that Ned lost his closest men at the Ruby Ford during the battle against Rhaegar? It's said Robert was injured, so it must have been a major battle. Did any of Robert's men go with Ned or did they hold back and wait with Robert?

Quote

"Ned Stark was racing south with Robert's van, but my father's forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, and he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him.

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Let's take it a step further, Who told Ned about the ToJ? That information alone would clear up a lot of this. Stannis might actually be able to provide some info on the subject. 

I'd go with a raven sent from Starfall to Ned inviting him to meet the KG at the ToJ.  Because I think those (Ashara Dayne) in attendance at Starfall, knew about this confrontation in advance. As well as Arthur Dayne's reasons for this final showdown; to die honorably; in keeping with his oath as a KG and to expiate the dishonor of not defending Aerys to the death.  It explains, in part, why the Dayne's hold Ned in high regard and do not hold him 'responsible' for Arthur Dayne's death.  In addition, Ned returns the famous sword, instead of keeping it for himself, when he could have claimed it in battle.

[St Daga]

On 3/18/2019 at 2:45 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't checked out the wiki's references for placing Domeric's birth year, but if the wiki is close to correct then the Lord Rickard that Roose is thinking of is Rickard Karstark and his daughter is Alys, who we know is a fine horseman. BUT, we also have Harwin's account that Arya rides like her aunt and like a northman, so we are persuaded to connect some dots....but why?

It is odd. It seems to me that GRRM is purposefully being illusive or attempting to mislead with the vagueness of these comments. But why is a great question.

 

On 3/18/2019 at 2:45 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Whether you take the Boneway or the Prince's Pass you end up in the same place - in the desert and on the east side of more mountains. You cannot travel west over the mountains to Starfall. The mountains don't have any passes going west, and it appears that Starfall is protected by high canyon walls. The only safe way to get there is by boat or ship.

When are we told that it's impossible to cross over the red mountains to Starfall? While they are mountains and the peoples of them are somewhat isolated, I doubt it's impossible to travel. Otherwise, people would not even know people are there.

 

On 3/19/2019 at 8:36 AM, Feather Crystal said:

The Prince's Pass does not lead to Starfall. The Prince's Pass is an opening between the Red Mountains that connects the Dornish Marshes to the desert of Dorne. Think of it as a great valley. The West map of The Lands of Ice and Fire shows the tower of joy as being located on the eastern side of the pass with the seat of House Manwoody of Kingsgrave a very short distance to the south, which would be the most logical place to go if any help was needed.

If Ned indeed chose this route he would have an arduous climb over the Red Mountains and have to scale steep canyons just to get down to the river, which is full of rapids and waterfalls. Ned would need donkeys and mules. I have serious doubts that Ned went to Starfall over land. If he went there, he went by ship from Storms End, but that would have been difficult seeing that all of the Baratheon ships were destroyed. I guess he could have bought passage on a merchant ship, or maybe even Davos's ship..

Starfall is located on an island at the mouth of the Torentine River. Here are quotes about the Torentine:

Quote

Most Dornish rivers are in full flood only after the rare (and dangerous) rainstorms. The rest of the year they are dry gullies. In all of Dorne, only three rivers flow day and night, winter and summer, without ever going dry. The Torrentine, arising high in the western mountains, plunges down to the sea in a series of rapids and waterfalls, howling through canyons and crevasses with a sound like the roar of some great beast. Rising from mountain springs, its waters are sweet and pure, but dangerous to cross, save by bridge, and impossible to navigate. 

The World of Ice and Fire

You are correct that the Princes Pass nor the Boneway lead directly to Starfall. These are principle passes that lead from Dorne into the Stormlands and the Reach. Starfall and the Torrentine valley does seem to be about as far as the lands of Dorne reach to the west, but they are still included in Dorne, and not the Reach, which seems to mean there is someway to connect the rest of the area to Dorne.

I find it hard to believe that you can't get to Starfall by crossing the red mountains. There has to be more than one way to get to that castle. It's supposedly on an island, however on most maps, it doesn't appear to be on an island at all, which is odd if you ask me. Not only is Starfall apparently in this Torrentine valley, but so is High Hermitage and Blackmont. There have to be ways to travel to these castles that include crossing the mountains. Mountains always have passes where people can pass through, even if it's not easy traveling. Especially if the Torrentine is "impossible to navigate", then there must be access to these castles that don't include a water route. Now, Ned might have taken a water route to Starfall, and this is probably the fastest and easiest route, but I think it's possible to travel over the Red Mountains by horse or foot.

Arianne tell's us that she needs Darkstar, "It may be that we will need his sword, and we will surely need his castle." So, Arianne must have plans of making use of High Hermitage with her travels, so it's likely going to be used as a safe haven, which means that they can get to it, even if it's buried in the red mountains, or a place to stop and rest on their journey. Arianne's travel plans across southern Dorne are perhaps a hint to us of another path that might have been taken by people in the past, perhaps even Ned. Much of Arianne's plan is never divulged to the reader, such as why she wants to crown Myrcella at Hellholt. Why Hellholt? What is so special about it? I do wonder if it has something to do with it being the place that Rhaenys Targaryen supposedly died when her dragon was shot from the sky. A Targaryen queen died in the same place that Arianne wants to crown a queen for the Iron Throne.

Also, Arianne's plans include Vaith at the end of the Greenblood, Hellholt and then Sandstone. She is moving west, right in the direction of the red mountains. She has to plan to cross them at some point, because IF they are impassible, then she is heading for a dead end. I doubt that Sandstone is her ultimate goal, and if so, why Sandstone? It seems to me that they are traveling either to Starfall or High Hermitage, and would need to cross the red mountains to reach either of them.

We also get's hints of crossing mountainous areas by different paths from looking at the Vale. In Game we are shown the way to the Bloody Gate, Gates of the Moon and the Eyrie by the High Road, a road but rather dangerous to travel. But later we hear that Jon Arryn and Robert traveled to Gulltown, and it looks like they must have rode through a valley to do it, and the story seems to imply that from the Bloody Gate to Gulltown is a path that is how Robb Stark hopes to get his army back North, if Lysa will allow him to travel from the Bloody Gate to Gulltown, then north by sea. We are also told that Ned actually crossed the Mountains of the Moon on his way to the fingers. Just looking at a map, the Mountains of the Moon look much higher and more difficult to traverse than the Red Mountains, but Ned managed to make it to the Fingers and eventually to the North after a detour in Sisterton. There have to be more than one way to reach the majority of these great castles. Even the Eyrie can be reached by the way castles, but the Targaryen's breached these defenses with their dragons. 

 

[Janneyc1]

20 minutes ago, St Daga said:

On 3/19/2019 at 10:36 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Quote

Most Dornish rivers are in full flood only after the rare (and dangerous) rainstorms. The rest of the year they are dry gullies. In all of Dorne, only three rivers flow day and night, winter and summer, without ever going dry. The Torrentine, arising high in the western mountains, plunges down to the sea in a series of rapids and waterfalls, howling through canyons and crevasses with a sound like the roar of some great beast. Rising from mountain springs, its waters are sweet and pure, but dangerous to cross, save by bridge, and impossible to navigate. 

The World of Ice and Fire

You are correct that the Princes Pass nor the Boneway lead directly to Starfall. These are principle passes that lead from Dorne into the Stormlands and the Reach. Starfall and the Torrentine valley does seem to be about as far as the lands of Dorne reach to the west, but they are still included in Dorne, and not the Reach, which seems to mean there is someway to connect the rest of the area to Dorne.

One thing to note is that the Mountains are said to have rapids and lots of flowing waters. Given time, these would likely make caves or even passages through the Mountains. 

On top of that, High Hermitage kinda sounds like it would be a castle on top of a mountain. It would make a decent location to holdout against an army from. 

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Arianne tell's us that she needs Darkstar, "It may be that we will need his sword, and we will surely need his castle." So, Arianne must have plans of making use of High Hermitage with her travels, so it's likely going to be used as a safe haven, which means that they can get to it, even if it's buried in the red mountains, or a place to stop and rest on their journey. Arianne's travel plans across southern Dorne are perhaps a hint to us of another path that might have been taken by people in the past, perhaps even Ned. Much of Arianne's plan is never divulged to the reader, such as why she wants to crown Myrcella at Hellholt. Why Hellholt? What is so special about it? I do wonder if it has something to do with it being the place that Rhaenys Targaryen supposedly died when her dragon was shot from the sky. A Targaryen queen died in the same place that Arianne wants to crown a queen for the Iron Throne.

Arianne was taking Myrcella to Hellholt only because it's the home of Ellaria Sand's father, Harman Uller. There was no plan to go further. Arianne was hoping to receive her oaths of fealty at Hellholt. I think she only meant she needed the fealty of Darkstar's castle.

 

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

We also get's hints of crossing mountainous areas by different paths from looking at the Vale. In Game we are shown the way to the Bloody Gate, Gates of the Moon and the Eyrie by the High Road, a road but rather dangerous to travel. But later we hear that Jon Arryn and Robert traveled to Gulltown, and it looks like they must have rode through a valley to do it, and the story seems to imply that from the Bloody Gate to Gulltown is a path that is how Robb Stark hopes to get his army back North, if Lysa will allow him to travel from the Bloody Gate to Gulltown, then north by sea. We are also told that Ned actually crossed the Mountains of the Moon on his way to the fingers. Just looking at a map, the Mountains of the Moon look much higher and more difficult to traverse than the Red Mountains, but Ned managed to make it to the Fingers and eventually to the North after a detour in Sisterton. There have to be more than one way to reach the majority of these great castles. Even the Eyrie can be reached by the way castles, but the Targaryen's breached these defenses with their dragons. 

I was actually reviewing all the maps this morning and was trying to trace Ned's path, but he couldn't have crossed the Mountains of the Moon if he ended up crossing the Bite. The Mountains of the Moon appear to run parallel to the Neck on the western edge of Arryn's territory. Doesn't it make more sense that Ned travelled north along the east side of the base of this range instead? It's not clear if the Fingers reaching eastward are actually considered part of the Mountains of the Moon. From the Eyrie it looks like Ned could have travelled in a valley with the Mountains of the Moon to his left/west and then followed a river. There are two forks leading into a larger river with Strong Song to the northwest and Heart's Home to the southwest. It looks like he could have followed the river northwest past Strong Song through a pass that leads north to the coast facing the Three Sisters.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

One thing to note is that the Mountains are said to have rapids and lots of flowing waters. Given time, these would likely make caves or even passages through the Mountains. 

On top of that, High Hermitage kinda sounds like it would be a castle on top of a mountain. It would make a decent location to holdout against an army from. 

To me it looks like Starfall, High Hermitage, and Blackmont are located in a valley made by the Torrentine. The Torrentine is described as having high canyons. They probably chose these locations for the natural protection of the mountain range, but access is probably limited to the river itself. 

Starfall and High Hermitage appear to be on the west side of the river, while Blackmont is on the east side...so there needs to be a bridge if going over land to Starfall. Then there's that description that says Starfall is actually on an island.

I'm not saying people couldn't try to climb over mountains and scale canyons, but doing so wouldn't be easy. It would be dangerous and difficult to do on horseback.

[alienarea]

If Ned + comrades vs 3 KG was a pre-arranged fight

- wouldn't honorable Ned ask his comrades whether they would really want to be with him, casualties expected?

- wouldn't the comrades have made some last arrangements then?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Another curious wording choice that I've been ruminating on today is calling Ned's men "Robert's van". Why wouldn't they just say Ned was racing south with his men or with the northmen? Is it possible that Ned lost his closest men at the Ruby Ford during the battle against Rhaegar? It's said Robert was injured, so it must have been a major battle. Did any of Robert's men go with Ned or did they hold back and wait with Robert?

Here's my train of thought - when exactly did everyone decide that Robert had the best claim? I mean, surely they didn't decide all this when the Rebellion started. Jaime made it sound like he didn't know right up until Ned arrived and found him sitting on the Iron Throne. He said he was waiting to see who would claim it. Other men asked Jaime who it should be and even suggested Tywin. The rebels had to win the war first before crowning any king, so maybe Ned brought Robert's van with his northmen, because Robert was injured, and not because Ned WAS Robert's van?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But if the tower was merely a meeting place for a duel, why was it said that Rhaegar named it the tower of joy?  

Turns out this was simply a misunderstanding.  What Rhaegar said was: "tower of the unemployed." 

[Black Crow]

Speaking as someone who used to go bump in the night and do all sorts of anti-social things, crossing mountains isn't as difficult as you might imagine. Features such as the Prince's Pass are important because an army can march through them, but for every pass of that stature there are dozens of smaller ones which can be negotiated by small parties

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Speaking as someone who used to go bump in the night and do all sorts of anti-social things, crossing mountains isn't as difficult as you might imagine. Features such as the Prince's Pass are important because an army can march through them, but for every pass of that stature there are dozens of smaller ones which can be negotiated by small parties

But have you ever crossed any mountains with a baby in one arm and your dead sister in the other?

[Matthew.]

On 3/21/2019 at 2:16 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I think you are misremembering this or misinterpreting, because Edric does not believe that Wylla is Jon's mother. Harwin clarifies for Arya that Edric believes Ashara is Jon's mother, and that he and Jon shared the same wetnurse named Wylla, who has worked for the Daynes "for years".

I don't agree with that interpretation of the conversation; he says he and Jon were milk brothers, that Wylla was Jon Snow's mother (just mother, not wet nurse, or "milk mother"), and that Ashara and Eddard fell in love at Harrenhal, all as distinct sentiments.

Edric is surprised that Jon has never spoken to her of Wylla, but it's not surprising that Jon wouldn't speak about (or even know about) someone who nursed him briefly at Starfall before he was brought home. Rather, Edric is surprised because he's operating under the assumption that Wylla being Jon Snow's mother is a thing that is known and uncontroversial within Winterfell, having no awareness of Eddard's refusal to speak of such things, even with Jon.

The conversation about Ashara is treated as distinct (and not in conflict with the idea that Eddard also fathered a bastard with Wylla) because it carries different social and emotional implications--Eddard having a physical relationship with a serving woman doesn't upset Arya, while the suggestion that he was in love with Ashara does.

[Matthew.]

32 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Speaking as someone who used to go bump in the night and do all sorts of anti-social things, crossing mountains isn't as difficult as you might imagine. Features such as the Prince's Pass are important because an army can march through them, but for every pass of that stature there are dozens of smaller ones which can be negotiated by small parties

Sure, and the text talks about the stony Dornishmen making their homes "in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains," so I suspect that some readers might be mentally envisioning the terrain as more inhospitable and difficult to traverse than what the author had in mind.

[JNR]

On 3/21/2019 at 10:24 AM, Matthew. said:

While Lyanna dying at Starfall is the narrative that I think the author will craft

Until about an hour ago I would have agreed with you.  Certainly I've said things in this thread that support this.

But I now know I was completely wrong.  I know Lyanna did not die at either Starfall or the TOJ.

That's the last thing I'm ever going to say about the TOJ on this site until TWOW comes out.  Sorry for all my "Lyanna died at Starfall" stuff, which I hereby disavow.

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I don't agree with that interpretation of the conversation; he says he and Jon were milk brothers, that Wylla was Jon Snow's mother (just mother, not wet nurse, or "milk mother"), and that Ashara and Eddard fell in love at Harrenhal, all as distinct sentiments.

Edric is surprised that Jon has never spoken to her of Wylla, but it's not surprising that Jon wouldn't speak about (or even know about) someone who nursed him briefly at Starfall before he was brought home. Rather, Edric is surprised because he's operating under the assumption that Wylla being Jon Snow's mother is a thing that is known and uncontroversial within Winterfell, having no awareness of Eddard's refusal to speak of such things, even with Jon.

The conversation about Ashara is treated as distinct (and not in conflict with the idea that Eddard also fathered a bastard with Wylla) because it carries different social and emotional implications--Eddard having a physical relationship with a serving woman doesn't upset Arya, while the suggestion that he was in love with Ashara does.

I went back to check, and I stand corrected - yes, Edric thinks Wylla is Jon Snow's mother:

Quote

 

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

"You have a House?" That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. "Who are you?"

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her "little sister." I'm not so little anymore. He'd have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. "There was an Arthur Dayne," she remembered. "The one they called the Sword of the Morning."

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, JNR said:

Until about an hour ago I would have agreed with you.  Certainly I've said things in this thread that support this.

But I now know I was completely wrong.  I know Lyanna did not die at either Starfall or the TOJ.

That's the last thing I'm ever going to say about the TOJ on this site until TWOW comes out.  Sorry for all my "Lyanna died at Starfall" stuff, which I hereby disavow.

Always so mysterious, JNR, about your theories. 

There's no harm in changing your opinion on a specific topic. I do it all the time!

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Until about an hour ago I would have agreed with you.  Certainly I've said things in this thread that support this.

But I now know I was completely wrong.  I know Lyanna did not die at either Starfall or the TOJ.

That's the last thing I'm ever going to say about the TOJ on this site until TWOW comes out.  Sorry for all my "Lyanna died at Starfall" stuff, which I hereby disavow.

Oh my!  What could this mean? Stop it, you! LOL  

[alienarea]

A little bit unrelated: do we know from a SSM or interview whether Howland Reed is still alive as of ADwD?

We know he survived the ToJ as Ned rode away with him, and he must have fathered Meera and Jorjen after the rebellion.

But Ned's dream with his friends as wraiths made me think whether he died in-between? As one of Ned's closest friends one would expect a word or two after Ned's execution, or the Red Wedding, or ...

If there were a leader of the White Walkers in the books I'd crack a pot and say it's him ... because of what he did at the ToJ to save Ned.

[Brad Stark]

Quote

We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just too much about the central mystery of the book...

 

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

One thing to note is that the Mountains are said to have rapids and lots of flowing waters. Given time, these would likely make caves or even passages through the Mountains. 

On top of that, High Hermitage kinda sounds like it would be a castle on top of a mountain. It would make a decent location to holdout against an army from. 

Caves are a good idea, I had not thought of that. But mountains normally have several places to pass through them, even it it's not the fastest travel, it can be done.

Yes, High Hermitage does sound a bit like it's an elevated castle. But Hermitage can mean "the dwelling of a hermit, something small and remote. Remote makes sense considering the mountains, but it's still needs to be accessible in some way. Darkstar can come and go, so it's not like a prison. But it does seem to be on the west side of the Torrentine, which could make getting to in another challenge. Still, even in the mountains, rivers can be forded and it can't be a rapid every inch of the river but it does hint at a good place to hide out.

 

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Arianne was taking Myrcella to Hellholt only because it's the home of Ellaria Sand's father, Harman Uller. There was no plan to go further. Arianne was hoping to receive her oaths of fealty at Hellholt. I think she only meant she needed the fealty of Darkstar's castle.

Arianne says she will need the help of Hellholt and Sandstone, and that she will need Darkstar's castle, High Hermitage. She is vague about what she means, but if the goal is only to go as far as Hellholt, why does she need Sandstone, further to the west. Perhaps it's just armies she needs, but the vagueness of her statements lead us open to interpret it in many ways. If it is so hard to cross the Torrentine, how will Darkstar get an army to her in Hellholt? These are things that are not at all addressed in the text if she means to have people rally around Myrcella at Hellholt. And yes, this is Elaria Sand's family home at Hellholt, but it has no connection for Arianne, or any of the people she rides with when she attempts to crown Myrcella. 

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if there is no deep meaning, and it was just GRRM's way of introducing some geography of Dorne in his story.

23 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was actually reviewing all the maps this morning and was trying to trace Ned's path, but he couldn't have crossed the Mountains of the Moon if he ended up crossing the Bite. The Mountains of the Moon appear to run parallel to the Neck on the western edge of Arryn's territory. Doesn't it make more sense that Ned travelled north along the east side of the base of this range instead? It's not clear if the Fingers reaching eastward are actually considered part of the Mountains of the Moon. From the Eyrie it looks like Ned could have travelled in a valley with the Mountains of the Moon to his left/west and then followed a river. There are two forks leading into a larger river with Strong Song to the northwest and Heart's Home to the southwest. It looks like he could have followed the river northwest past Strong Song through a pass that leads north to the coast facing the Three Sisters.

I think all the mountains in the vale are part of the Mountains of the Moon. The mountains that separate the vale from the riverlands, as well as the bite to the north and the Bay of Crabs to the south.

Quote

The Vale of Arryn—a long, wide, fertile valley entirely ringed by the great grey-green peaks of the mighty Mountains of the Moon—is as rich as it is beautiful. Perhaps that was why the first Andal invaders chose to land there when they crossed the narrow sea beneath the banners of their gods. The proof of that claim lies in the stones carved all about the Fingers, which bear images of stars, swords, and axes (or hammers, as some have argued). The sacred book of the Faith, The Seven-Pointed Star, speaks of a "golden land amidst towering mountains" when Hugor of the Hill received his vision of the bounty that would one day belong to the Andals. TWOIAF-The Vale

If the vale of Arryn is entirely ringed by the Mountains of the Moon, then this would indicate to me that the mountains are on all sides of the Vale, except based on the maps, the vale borders the sea on it's east, but it's north, west and southern sides are bordered by mountains and the only mountain range name we are given in the Vale is the Mountains of the Moon. In that same way, the Red Mountains of Dorne border both the Reach to the west but also the Stormlands to the north.

Quote

 

Though the Vale is guarded by mountains, that has not prevented outside attacks. The high road from the riverlands through the Mountains of the Moon has seen much blood spilled, for steep and stony as it is, it provides the most likely way for an army to enter the Vale. Its eastern end is guarded by the Bloody Gate, once merely a rough-hewn, unmortared wall after the fashion of the ringforts of the First Men. But in the reign of King Osric V Arryn, this fortress was constructed anew. Over the centuries, a dozen invading armies have smashed themselves to pieces attempting to breach the Bloody Gates.

 

The coast of the Vale—rocky and full of treacherous shallows and reefs—provides poor anchorage, which again has added to their defense, but the Arryn kings, well aware that their own ancestors came to Westeros from across the sea, have never neglected their coastal defenses. Strong castles and forts guard the most vulnerable coastlines, and even the stony, windswept Fingers are studded with watchtowers, each with its own beacon to warn against raiders from the sea. TWOIAF-The Vale

 

This seems to indicate while the High Road is the most likely way to enter the Vale, there are other ways to cross the mountains, such as from the sea, even the stony Fingers. 

I am not sure about all of GRRM's geography, especially the mountain ranges in the North. We are never given an actual name for these mountains, but we know they have people living in them and traveling through them, so it might be that they are considered part of the Frostfang range. Or they have another name that we just have not been given. 

[LynnS]

If I had to pick a place where Lyanna died that wasn't Starfall or the ToJ; it would have to be the Quiet Isle.

- a place of salt and smoke (saltpans and smoking bee hives)

- the brothers take a vow of silence

- Elder Brother said it was a place where noble ladies and women who were delivering sometimes came for help

- Elder Brother also laments that they did not always have a brother with the necessary medical knowledge

- Ned said Lyanna deserved better than a butcher 

Any other places where she might have found?