Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

A true parallel would dictate that a woman would have pushed the corpse out the window, and if Ned did indeed reach Starfall, it may have been a servant or family member that was in agreement with following through on a fake suicide for Ashara. I'm quite convinced Ashara is still alive and is in disguise as Lady Lenore. 

Hmm. a woman pushing a corpse sounds like an inversion to me. A parallel of the Lysa/Sansa/LF situation would be a man pushing a living woman out of a door or window to fall to their death in an attempt to save the life of a child. 

I also think Ashara could be alive, but could she have survived a drop into the ocean? A good swimmer might be able to. Or someone drowned and reborn, as we get from Aeron Greyjoy! Or she never went out a window at all, but that doesn't seem to parallel Lysa's fall since we know she went out the moon door.

 

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Catelyn's recollection of Ned remaining at Riverrun with her for two weeks is an indication that they married prior to the Battle of the Bells, because Hoster would need time to gather his men. It's not like he automatically had an army standing at the ready that could rush off as soon as Ned and Jon asked for them. They would have to negotiate, and then have time to call Tully bannermen, and wait for them to gather. 

I think it's possible that Hoster initially marched with a smaller army, since they could have been in a hurry to get to Robert. Honestly, is two weeks even enough time to call banners and have them arrive in decent numbers? Not in the north, certainly, as is shown when Robb called his banners. And perhaps not in the riverlands, either. It's possible that Hoster called his banners but marched before many had arrived. This could be a reason to return to  Riverrun and collect the rest of the army that his lords had raised. Also, we know that Jon Arryn was was at the wedding, since he married Lysa, but we don't know that Jon Arryn was the Battle of the Bells. We only have mention of Denys Arryn fighting and dying at the Battle of the Bells.

Quote

And so he swept down on Stoney Sept, closed off the town, and began a search. His knights went house to house, smashed in every door, peered into every cellar. He had even sent men crawling through the sewers, yet somehow Robert still eluded him. The townsfolk were hiding him. They moved him from one secret bolt-hole to the next, always one step ahead of the king's men. The whole town was a nest of traitors. At the end they had the usurper hidden in a brothel. What sort of king was that, who would hide behind the skirts of women? Yet whilst the search dragged on, Eddard Stark and Hoster Tully came down upon the town with a rebel army. Bells and battle followed, and Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand, and almost slew Jon on the steps of the old sept that gave the town its name. ADWD-The Griffin Reborn

This memory of Jon Con's seems to indicate that Ned Stark and Hoster Tully's forces came to Stoney Sept leading a rebel army, but there is no mention of Jon Arryn or his men. I find that odd, but perhaps it is because Jon Arryn's forces were not at Stoney Sept. If Jon Arryn was in the process of bringing his men down from the Vale, but had not met Ned's forces yet, then perhaps Ned and Robert didn't join their forces to Jon Arryn's until after the Battle of the Bells? Perhaps Denys Arryn lead some men from the Vale, but not all of them, and not the men that were part of Jon Arryn's main army?

 

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that "red" is associated with brothels, and that yellow and green should be associated with septs, and it is possible that the Winterfell greenhouse was also once a sept, because why would you purposely build a greenhouse with such expensive, colored glass?

It seems like rainbow colored glass is associated with septs, not just green and yellow, but red and orange and blue and violet. Some color spectrums include indigo and some do not, but I think GRRM uses a variation of these, since in his color guard, Loras has no color designation, and then the rest of the colors used are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple, which is illustrated in the colors he has chosen for Renly's rainbow guard. Seven colors would also fit the idea of seven colors for the Faith of the Seven and seven colored rainbows are a characteristic of the crystals used in septs, but we are never told if clear is one of those colors or not. 

Of course, in color theory, yellow and blue make green, so I wonder if that has something to do with our rose colors. Gold rose of the Tyrells and the Blue rose of the Starks could combine in theory to make a green rose. Is there a green rose sigil or house in ASOIAF? Could the green have some thing to do with Garth Greenhand or House Gardener?

As to whether the glass garden's used to be a sept or not, I doubt it. Why would Ned build Catelyn a sept if there was already a place she could use at Winterfell? And if it had been a sept in the past, would it not have colored glass of seven colors and not just two?

Quote

We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. The best glass came from Myr, but a good clear pane was worth its weight in spice, and green and yellow glass would not work as well.  ADWD-Jon VII

This thought from Jon seems to indicate that clear glass is preferable, at least if you want to grow vegetables, and also expensive since it's worth it's weight in spice. I still think that the green and yellow glass at Winterfell has something to do with growing blue winter roses.

 

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

If a baby was born of a dead Lyanna, it would need to be born by c-sect and quickly, as there is no blood or heart beat to the infant inside the uterus once the mother dies. However, if Lyanna was like a wight, but not a classic flesh rotting wight, could she maintain a pregnancy longer than most people. After all, we are told that Stark's are hard to kill. It's a theme we get early in the story! Or, Lyanna gave birth in the crypts of Winterfell or another type of graveyard!

 

Sadly, the dead can expel fetuses.

Well, those are dead babies being born of dead mothers, and that situation is extremely rare, so much so scientists wont even quantify those types of births or agree on how to completely define them. I should have stated a live birth is the goal I had in mind when talking about the case of being"born of the dead", however, that could fit the idea of Ghost pup, or Jon, if both are actually dead and have already been resurrected because they have a purpose to serve yet. I actually like the idea that the first resurrection we have in the story happens with a major character before Waymar even dances with an Other at the opening of the books. 

 

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

As for the notion that Jon was born with the dead or that the direwolf gave birth at the moment of death or shortly after; it's worth noting that Ghost is the first born and older than the other pups because his eyes are opened while the others are not.

And I am not sure that ghost was born first, even if his eyes were open. He is the smallest of the litter, the runt, and Theon thought he would die. Just because his eyes are open first, that doesn't necessarily mean Ghost is the eldest. As a matter of fact, it makes more sense if he was born last if he was born of a dead mother. A mother killed in the process of giving birth, to five pups while she is alive and one after her death. 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

21 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Yes, frostbite would cause black fingers, and the whole hand would turn black before her palm.   Black palms with healthy fingers is almost impossible from frostbite, you'd need something super cold. 

Or something really hot. a concentrated source of heat could produce a full thickness burn in one area, but leave others relatively unaffected. 

This reminds me of Grenn picking up the obsidian dagger that Sam uses to kill the White Walker. Something really cold!

Quote

 

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

 

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow. ASOS-Samwell I

 

If Grenn had not thrown the dagger down right away, if he had held onto it, could it have caused him to have frostbite to his palm or fingers?

 

[JNR]

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

And we do have some precedent with Coldhands (yes, I think he has Stark blood) having some wight like features but being able to walk and take and ride an elk, but he is clearly not alive. So, could Lyanna have been like this?

Well, this is really the only viable possibility for Lyanna being a wight, because only Coldhands appears to be a wight who can talk and we know for sure Lyanna said "Promise me, Ned."

But we also have this:

Quote

The fever had taken her strength

Could Coldhands die of any physical ailment linked to a fever?  Could he even develop a fever?

I don't believe he could; I don't believe wights of any sort get sick, in any way, or that that their body temperature could ever go up as a reaction.  Bacteria and viruses are not threats to wights.

So for this reason, too, I don't think Lyanna was any kind of wight.

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

As for Ned embracing his dead(ish) sister, I think he would. He loved her with all his heart, after all! That's a lot of love! And his reaction to her death sent him into a silent grief. It's powerful imagery and indicates a deep type of love and connection, at least to me.

Sure, but all that is because she's now, for the first and only time, dead.

If she were a wight before "Promise me, Ned," and thus she has (per the idea) black palms, then like Coldhands she would already have died much earlier.  He would not suddenly be full of grief, and he would not be holding her body over grief.  She would still be able to talk despite being dead, just as Coldhands can.

(I am also somewhat amused that I have to specify, because of all GRRM's games in this area, that this was her first and only death.) 

[St Daga]

26 minutes ago, JNR said:

Could Coldhands die of any physical ailment linked to a fever?  Could he even develop a fever?

I don't believe he could; I don't believe wights of any sort get sick, in any way, or that that their body temperature could ever go up as a reaction.  Bacteria and viruses are not threats to wights.

You make a good point with the fever. But do we really know how bacteria or virus's affect wights? It seems that Val has some major misgivings about Shireen's greyscale, so perhaps it has something to do with how it might affect the wights. 

 

29 minutes ago, JNR said:

If she were a wight before "Promise me, Ned," and thus she has (per the idea) black palms, then like Coldhands she would already have died much earlier.  He would not suddenly be full of grief, and he would not be holding her body over grief.  She would still be able to talk despite being dead, just as Coldhands can.

(I am also somewhat amused that I have to specify, because of all GRRM's games in this area, that this was her first and only death.) 

Granted, it is a pretty farfetched idea. But we know that Arya grieved Catelyn's death at the Twins, even if she was somewhat in denial about it. But if Arya should someday cross paths with UnCat, and perhaps even ends the life of her undead mother, do you not suppose that Arya might grieve again for Catelyn? How are we to know for sure how people will grieve?

It seems that Coldhands is dead, has been for a while, yet he still talks and walks and rides his elk. Perhaps someone grieved for  him when he died his first death, and might someone who cares for him still grieve if he dies a more permanent death?

These are all questions based on GRRM's word structure in that sentence. He understands grammar and prose, so why does he have such a clumsy sentence structure in his story? And with such an important transfer of information? Perhaps because he is trying to pull a fast one on us? He is certainly capable of subterfuge in his writing. But I totally understand why people don't see what seems so odd to me! 

[Mullocose]

11 hours ago, St Daga said:

And we do have some precedent with Coldhands (yes, I think he has Stark blood) having some wight like features but being able to walk and take and ride an elk, but he is clearly not alive. So, could Lyanna have been like this?

Great Point...

[Lady Dyanna]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Yes, there is that concept of the stained glass in the brothel, but for the most part we associate brothels with red lanterns (so red glass in a lantern). Stained glass in general is more often associated with the light in the septs and the rainbow colors of stained glass also hint at the crystals associated with the Faith of the Seven.

True. But I am reluctant to utilize real world symbolism etc. in my interpretations. I prefer to look at the context of its use. That being said, that particular brothel is interesting because of a former hand having had the tunnel made to avoid beeing seem. Then you wind up with a room that is decorated in Lanister colored stained glass. Hmmm.  Is this some form of echo or clue to what happened during RR? Or leading up to it. 

[Lady Dyanna]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Quite right about the roses and the green and yellow seeming like a connection to House Tyrell. It is interesting.  I wonder how long the glass gardens at Winterfell have had yellow and green glass? Is it a new addition or old? Long before House Tyrell came into existence? Or will we find that some how yellow and green glass filter's light that helps roses bloom? Because while most roses in general, and a golden rose for certain, are associated with House Tyrell, it seems to be House Stark that is associated with a blue rose, a winter rose, pale as frost! 

Sorry. Missed replying to this part. It’s certainly an interesting idea. I’m not sure if GRRM would get involved in that type of detail or not. On the one hand we do have some very detailed information on what’s being served for supper and the color and shapes of women’s nipples. On the other, it just seems too technical. One thing that I have noticed is that it seems like GRRM does use certain colors and descriptions to get us to pay attention. In any passage that I personally have questioned if some sort of echo of past events exists, I have nearly always found some descriptor that brings to mind another time and place. I’d need to read everything about the winter gardens to know for sure if something similar is happening there.

I’m not 100% positive, but I think that when Jon is considering supplying the Watch through the winter he thinks of starting their own glass garden and I believe the glass was old and came from Essos, possibly Bravos? 

And this also reminds me that we have a House from the Reach currently in residence in the North after being banished from this area for an unknown reason. Ahhh. Too many connections. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Just think... if GRRM had said “dead and African-American,” we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

[Lady Dyanna]

  

[Melifeather]

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

Hmm. a woman pushing a corpse sounds like an inversion to me. A parallel of the Lysa/Sansa/LF situation would be a man pushing a living woman out of a door or window to fall to their death in an attempt to save the life of a child. 

Oh dear, I'm afraid I left Petyr out of the equation. There needs to be three people, but you're right, this is an inverted parallel in several ways. Lysa, Sansa, and Petyr versus male corpse dressed as a woman, Ashara, and Ned. (2 women + 1 man vs 2 men + 1 woman) Also, Petyr was married to Lysa, although he'd rather be married to Catelyn, versus Ned being married to Catelyn, but he'd rather be married to Ashara. Catelyn is now dead as Lady Stoneheart, whereas the body pushed from the Palestone Tower was already dead. And lastly, Ashara is pretending to be dead.

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think it's possible that Hoster initially marched with a smaller army, since they could have been in a hurry to get to Robert. Honestly, is two weeks even enough time to call banners and have them arrive in decent numbers?

My point being is that it takes time - even to gather a small army, so if Ned waited at Riverrun with Catelyn two weeks before rushing back to the war, I think it's reasonable to conclude that they married before the Battle of the Bells.

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

This memory of Jon Con's seems to indicate that Ned Stark and Hoster Tully's forces came to Stoney Sept leading a rebel army, but there is no mention of Jon Arryn or his men.

I agree this sounds strange, because we know Ned and Catelyn and Jon and Lysa had a double wedding. Perhaps Stark and Tully forces came upon the town from one end, while Jon Arryn's forces circled around to come in from another direction?

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

Granted, it is a pretty farfetched idea. But we know that Arya grieved Catelyn's death at the Twins, even if she was somewhat in denial about it. But if Arya should someday cross paths with UnCat, and perhaps even ends the life of her undead mother, do you not suppose that Arya might grieve again for Catelyn? How are we to know for sure how people will grieve?

This just reminded me of something: how to kill wights. According to what we've witnessed beyond the Wall, wights won't die unless you are able to crack the bones open, or by burning, so how come Beric Dondarrion was so easily killed seven times? His deaths were like ordinary deaths. No need to crack open his bones. It's just one indication that his type of undead condition is different than a wight.

[St Daga]

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

14 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think it's possible that Hoster initially marched with a smaller army, since they could have been in a hurry to get to Robert. Honestly, is two weeks even enough time to call banners and have them arrive in decent numbers?

My point being is that it takes time - even to gather a small army, so if Ned waited at Riverrun with Catelyn two weeks before rushing back to the war, I think it's reasonable to conclude that they married before the Battle of the Bells.

14 hours ago, St Daga said:

This memory of Jon Con's seems to indicate that Ned Stark and Hoster Tully's forces came to Stoney Sept leading a rebel army, but there is no mention of Jon Arryn or his men.

I agree this sounds strange, because we know Ned and Catelyn and Jon and Lysa had a double wedding. Perhaps Stark and Tully forces came upon the town from one end, while Jon Arryn's forces circled around to come in from another direction?

I think GRRM has left it vague for a reason, and I think it's possible that Ned came south to Stoney Sept, fought and rescued Robert, and then they all moved back north to collect the entire army that Hoster Tully had called for his bannermen to raise. Somewhere I have heard rumors that Robert attended the wedding, but I think that information is in the app, and since I don't see it as canon, nor am I willing to pay for it, I don't know for sure. But, if Ned and Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully and Robert Baratheon had their full armies at the Battle of the Bells, then it only makes sense that they would have taken their large force and pushed south after the loyalist forces. But they didn't, they moved back north. Which leads me to think they did not have nearly their full strength at Stoney Sept when they battled. We might not ever get a reveal about this until the end of the story, but I can see it going either way. 

 

37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

This just reminded me of something: how to kill wights. According to what we've witnessed beyond the Wall, wights won't die unless you are able to crack the bones open, or by burning, so how come Beric Dondarrion was so easily killed seven times? His deaths were like ordinary deaths. No need to crack open his bones. It's just one indication that his type of undead condition is different than a wight.

Yes, this does seem to be proof that they are different kinds of power that animates these corpses. But there was that article a while back where GRRM talks about how Cat and Beric are "fire wights", which means he sees them at least as similar types of undead or reborn.

 

[Janneyc1]

15 hours ago, St Daga said:

If Grenn had not thrown the dagger down right away, if he had held onto it, could it have caused him to have frostbite to his palm or fingers?

yes, wouldn't have taken that long either

 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I think GRRM has left it vague for a reason, and I think it's possible that Ned came south to Stoney Sept, fought and rescued Robert, and then they all moved back north to collect the entire army that Hoster Tully had called for his bannermen to raise. Somewhere I have heard rumors that Robert attended the wedding, but I think that information is in the app, and since I don't see it as canon, nor am I willing to pay for it, I don't know for sure. But, if Ned and Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully and Robert Baratheon had their full armies at the Battle of the Bells, then it only makes sense that they would have taken their large force and pushed south after the loyalist forces. But they didn't, they moved back north. Which leads me to think they did not have nearly their full strength at Stoney Sept when they battled. We might not ever get a reveal about this until the end of the story, but I can see it going either way. 

Better question: why was Robert alone in the Stoney Sept and not with his army? I know that he lost his battle with Tarly, but surely some of his army was able to get away. Maybe Robert sent his army North and stayed behind to buy them some time? Hang behind to entertain himself? IDK, but he should have had more than himself in the Stoney Sept. That leads me to think that Ned brought down a fraction of the army, and then they rendezvoused back in Riverrun to get get the Tully alliance.  

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Better question: why was Robert alone in the Stoney Sept and not with his army? I know that he lost his battle with Tarly, but surely some of his army was able to get away. Maybe Robert sent his army North and stayed behind to buy them some time? Hang behind to entertain himself? IDK, but he should have had more than himself in the Stoney Sept. That leads me to think that Ned brought down a fraction of the army, and then they rendezvoused back in Riverrun to get get the Tully alliance.  

I don't think Robert was alone - just that his force was much smaller than Jon Connington's, but i guess it's possible that Robert's army was destroyed at Ashford and only Robert slipped away.

While JonCon only mentions Ned and Hoster as coming down, there are other sources that list all three as fighting at Stoney Sept against Jon Connington. Jon Arryn's cousin and heir died during the Battle of the Bells.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, St Daga said:

It seems that Val has some major misgivings about Shireen's greyscale, so perhaps it has something to do with how it might affect the wights. 

I don't think Val would be worried about wights getting greyscale; I think her concern is solely with the free folk on that topic.

Actually, Coldhands spells out clearly why he has black hands:

Quote

 

"Who are you? Why are your hands black?"

The ranger studied his hands as if he had never noticed them before. "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals." His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. "His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk."

 

Ergo, if Lyanna already had black hands of this sort, and somehow became this sort of wight, she died well before.  Her heart stopped.  Her blood pooled.  And yet after that, she was still able to think and talk and ask Ned for things.

In such a case, there would be no reason for Ned suddenly to hold her body in newfound grief.  Because Lyanna would not be gone in any new way. 

Actually, she would likely still be around, in the story ever since, still doing things and saying things, in just the same way Coldhands still is doing things and saying things.  It doesn't seem like that's the case.

[LynnS]

Nothing to do with GoT but I came across this today and it cracked me up.  Cello shredding and head bangers:

 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

According to what we've witnessed beyond the Wall, wights won't die unless you are able to crack the bones open, or by burning, so how come Beric Dondarrion was so easily killed seven times? His deaths were like ordinary deaths. No need to crack open his bones. It's just one indication that his type of undead condition is different than a wight.

Certainly it's different.  He hasn't got the blue eyes all wights except Coldhands have... and he wasn't an animated corpse with black hands, as Coldhands was, either.

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Nothing to do with GoT but I came across this today and it cracked me up.  Cello shredding and head bangers:

 

 AC/DC Thunderstruck! I thought for sure they'd saw right through their bows! 

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, JNR said:

Certainly it's different.  He hasn't got the blue eyes all wights except Coldhands have... and he wasn't an animated corpse with black hands, as Coldhands was, either.

I initially inserted in my post and then deleted that Beric didn't have black hands, because I didn't recall if he did or not. 

[Black Crow]

Leaving Ice and Fire out of it, there is a practical difference between Coldhands and Beric in that the former admitted that he was dead, which is why his blood settled. Beric on the other hand was merely dying or at least still warm when Thoros breathed life back into him. There hadn't yet been time for settlement.