Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[Black Crow]

Mind you< I'm of a mind that suggestions Lyanna was latterly a wight of some kind is over-thinking things. The black petals are most likely black because they were either long dead [the crown of blue roses scenario] or simply because she had crushed them in her agony.

What seems to me to be a far more interesting question is the real significance of the blue roses. Why are they associated with the Starks in the first place, why do they represent death [although no-one outside the North seems to believe that] and do they represent a link between the Starks, Death and the Blue-eyed lot.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Mind you< I'm of a mind that suggestions Lyanna was latterly a wight of some kind is over-thinking things. The black petals are most likely black because they were either long dead [the crown of blue roses scenario] or simply because she had crushed them in her agony.

What seems to me to be a far more interesting question is the real significance of the blue roses. Why are they associated with the Starks in the first place, why do they represent death [although no-one outside the North seems to believe that] and do they represent a link between the Starks, Death and the Blue-eyed lot.

Well in reality a blue rose doesn't exist any more than a red comet.  Both have magical significance in GRRM's world.

Quote

The blue rose does not exist. The pigment that makes flowers blue “delphinidin,” is not present in roses. Yet it is an ultimate desire to find or possess one. Perhaps because it is human nature to wish to have the unattainable. Blue roses are depicted in art and described in Legends. The blue rose is a flower found in fairy tales and myths. It is mentioned in “Rimsky-Korsakov’s fairy tale opera, “Sadko.” In Arabian Nights, magicians turned roses blue. There have been claims that the blue rose was found in gardens during history. In the thirteenth century Arabian botanist Ibn el-Awam listed the blue rose among those in his garden. The rose was never found or his claim confirmed. Modern scholars think he may have mistaken a form of Hibiscus Syriacus “The Rose of Sharon,” for blue.”

https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Legend-Of-the-Blue-Rose

I'm not sure why the roses are dead and black.  But this is interesting:

Quote

Many Utah roses have fallen victim to finicky fall weather. Late last November through early December, the weather in northern Utah went from 60-plus degrees to almost 0 in a matter of days. Unfortunately, this quick change brought about many black, dead rose plants. Consider this information.

https://extension.usu.edu/archive/why-did-my-roses-turn-black

[dialt]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

What seems to me to be a far more interesting question is the real significance of the blue roses. Why are they associated with the Starks in the first place, why do they represent death [although no-one outside the North seems to believe that] and do they represent a link between the Starks, Death and the Blue-eyed lot.

In my opinion, that is only because Blue is - in general - a color associated to death too.
Especially in alchemical symbolism, which is heavily used by GRRM in this serie.

That said, I believe that the "literal meaning" of that sentence is that the petals were blue. However, it's deliberately ambiguous... to hint something else. That is - in fact - the idea of...  a dead mother.

I am sure, that a "dead mother" is something important. And that quote from AGOT Bran I about the dead she-direwolves giving birth is there because of that too.

Keep in mind that there is also this one from Varamyr's pov in ADWD

Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub.

But I beleive that these kind of details, don't help explaining the  events suorronding Robert's rebellion,  Lyanna, the ToJ etc iteself.

I believe that they (so what we know about Lyanna, the ToJ, etc.... too) are hints about the creation of the Others.

I am currently working on something about all the prologues (how they are tied, how they mirror each other etc...) and I believe that they are also tied to AGOT Bran I.  My main take is that they hide the key about the Others, their creation and their relationship with the Starks.

Unfortunately it's taking too long. But I'm looking forward to share it with you all to talk about in detail. Especially with @Feather Crystal because yes... there's definitelly something going on with those titled chapters and there's definitelly a path in the prologues too, but maybe there's even more than we believed untill now. However... I hope to finish it soon and discuss it all. 

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Leaving Ice and Fire out of it, there is a practical difference between Coldhands and Beric in that the former admitted that he was dead, which is why his blood settled. Beric on the other hand was merely dying or at least still warm when Thoros breathed life back into him. There hadn't yet been time for settlement.

Well, Lady Stoneheart was definitely dead when resurrected and still has a cut throat. I don't think her blood is still flowing.

[Melifeather]

34 minutes ago, lalt said:

Unfortunately it's taking too long. But I'm looking forward to share it with you all to talk about in detail. Especially with @Feather Crystal because yes... there's definitelly something going on with those titled chapters and there's definitelly a path in the prologues too, but maybe there's even more than we believed untill now. However... I hope to finish it soon and discuss it all. 

I'm really looking forward to reading what you've come up with! 

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well, Lady Stoneheart was definitely dead when resurrected and still has a cut throat. I don't think her blood is still flowing.

She'd also spent some time in the river which will have screwed up the process described by Coldhands

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

She'd also spent some time in the river which will have screwed up the process described by Coldhands

It is possible that Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and even Coldhands are pretending to be alive. Not consciously of course, but inhabited by someone else. This might be the opposing parallel to Lady Ashara pretending to be dead.

Whoever the skinchangers are, they would be able to sense the prior occupants thoughts and emotions until they faded away, like Varamyr explained about Orell inside the eagle. Maybe whoever was using Beric jumped hosts, because he could no longer sense Beric?

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think GRRM has left it vague for a reason, and I think it's possible that Ned came south to Stoney Sept, fought and rescued Robert, and then they all moved back north to collect the entire army that Hoster Tully had called for his bannermen to raise.

There's another detail that seems to confirm that Ned and Catelyn were wed prior to the Battle of the Bells - Catelyn said the first time she ever saw Ned was on their wedding day. If Ned had stopped at Riverrun long enough to negotiate with Hoster and then for Hoster to muster a small army, how was it that Ned got in and out without Catelyn ever seeing him? How long are you suggesting he was there the first time, if indeed there was a first and second time? And why would Hoster or any lord provide an army and then take the risk of the groom dying before reaping any benefit for their daughter? We know Walder Frey allowed it, but sorely regretted it and took revenge.

[dialt]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm really looking forward to reading what you've come up with! 

Well to anticipate something...

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well, Lady Stoneheart was definitely dead when resurrected and still has a cut throat. I don't think her blood is still flowing.

AGOT PROLOGUE

Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat.

Will closed his eyes to pray. Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold.

With these two quotes in minds, let's look at the others prologues:

ACOK PROLOGUE

- Cressen's fingers went to the chain about his neck, each link forged from a different metal, each symbolizing his mastery of another branch of learning; the maester's collar, mark of his order. In the pride of his youth, he had worn it easily, but now it seemed heavy to him, the metal cold against his skin

- Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester's chain...

-In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. 
- Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck.

ASOS PROLOGUE

- Mormont cleared his throat and spat. The spittle was frozen before it hit the ground. 

- "Paul," said Chett, before the big man got too angry, "when they find the old man lying in a pool of blood with his throat slit, they won't need no bird to tell them someone killed him." [-> throats cut, instead of strangled]

AFFC PROLOGUE

- "Will I?" said Leo. "How can I, with my throat so dry . . ." [dry = opposite to frozen]

- He brought it to his mouth and bit down on it the way he’d seen men do. If truth be told, he wasn’t sure what gold should taste like, but he did not want to look a fool (...)
“What’s happening?” he said. His legs had turned to water. “I don’t understand.”
“And never will,” a voice said sadly.
The cobblestones rushed up to kiss him. Pate tried to cry for help, but his voice was failing too  [-> at least, symbolically strangled]

ADWD PROLOGUE

- His eyes were red, his lips cracked, his throat dry and parched 
- His throat was raw, but it felt good to hear a human voice, even his own. [dry and raw= opposite to frozen]

- His one-eyed brother knocked the tooth-thrower back into a snowdrift and tore his throat out as he struggled.
- Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. 
- He had gorged on human flesh and lapped the blood of dying men as it gushed red and hot from their torn throats. 
[->cutting  throats]

 

I don't think it's coincidence. The question is, what is this all really about?

 

[dialt]

dp

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

She'd also spent some time in the river which will have screwed up the process described by Coldhands

And she wasn't resurrected by Thoros, who refused.  Beric raised her and expired himself.

[Mullocose]

17 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Just think... if GRRM had said “dead and African-American,” we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

Wait, is GRRM Racists? 

My Magic 8-Ball says "It is known"...

wtf...

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, lalt said:

Well to anticipate something...

AGOT PROLOGUE

Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat.

Will closed his eyes to pray. Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold.

With these two quotes in minds, let's look at the others prologues:

ACOK PROLOGUE

- Cressen's fingers went to the chain about his neck, each link forged from a different metal, each symbolizing his mastery of another branch of learning; the maester's collar, mark of his order. In the pride of his youth, he had worn it easily, but now it seemed heavy to him, the metal cold against his skin

- Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester's chain...

-In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. 
- Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck.

ASOS PROLOGUE

- Mormont cleared his throat and spat. The spittle was frozen before it hit the ground. 

- "Paul," said Chett, before the big man got too angry, "when they find the old man lying in a pool of blood with his throat slit, they won't need no bird to tell them someone killed him." [-> throats cut, instead of strangled]

AFFC PROLOGUE

- "Will I?" said Leo. "How can I, with my throat so dry . . ." [dry = opposite to frozen]

- He brought it to his mouth and bit down on it the way he’d seen men do. If truth be told, he wasn’t sure what gold should taste like, but he did not want to look a fool (...)
“What’s happening?” he said. His legs had turned to water. “I don’t understand.”
“And never will,” a voice said sadly.
The cobblestones rushed up to kiss him. Pate tried to cry for help, but his voice was failing too  [-> at least, symbolically strangled]

ADWD PROLOGUE

- His eyes were red, his lips cracked, his throat dry and parched 
- His throat was raw, but it felt good to hear a human voice, even his own. [dry and raw= opposite to frozen]

- His one-eyed brother knocked the tooth-thrower back into a snowdrift and tore his throat out as he struggled.
- Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. 
- He had gorged on human flesh and lapped the blood of dying men as it gushed red and hot from their torn throats. 
[->cutting  throats]

 

I don't think it's coincidence. The question is, what is this all really about?

 

As I've mentioned before, (and I've forgotten who the credit should go to) but the Prologues have a pattern of AGOT: Beyond the Wall, ACOK: a Maester, ASOS: Beyond the Wall, AFFC: a Maester, ADWD: Beyond the Wall, and I am predicting "a maester" in Winds. I think you have found another pattern, as well as many associations with death occurring at the throat. One person dies of a mortal wound, while a secondary character is strangled.

AGOT: Waymar died of sword wounds. Will was strangled.

ACOK: Cressen strangled by poison, Mel's necklace tight enough to strangle.

ASOS: Mormont died of sword wounds, but I don't recall Chett's injury. Was he strangled?

AFFC: Pate (assumed) strangled. 

ADWD: Varamyr died from a spear to his side, and because he was weakened by the death of the eagle. But he kills (while skinchanging) by attacking at the throats. Varamyr tried to skinchange into Thistle. While it's known Thistle gouged her own eyes out trying to keep Varamyr out, she probably choked on her own tongue.

Winds: the patterns suggest that a maester should die by strangulation. 

I do appreciate all the references to throats though, because I'm becoming more and more convinced Lyanna pleaded with Ned to give her the gift of mercy and he obliged by cutting her throat.

Arya in the Mercy chapter sings, "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" while she's descending five flights of stairs (symbolic of dying). And there are other paragraphs where "Mercy" is called out in a series of three:

Quote

Mercy, I'm Mercy, and tonight I'll be raped and murdered. Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her...

Quote

 

"Mercy," her friend Daena implored, "Lady Stork has stepped on the hem of her gown again. Come help me sew it up."

 

"Mercy," the Stranger called, "bring the bloody paste, my horn is coming loose."

 

"Mercy," boomed Izembaro the Great himself, "what have you done with my crown, girl? I cannot make my entrance without my crown. How shall they know that I'm a king?"

 

"Mercy," squeaked the dwarf Bobono, "Mercy, something's amiss with my laces, my cock keeps flopping out."

 

 

Quote

Mercy pushed it back into Bobono's breeches and laced him back up. "Mercy," he sang as she tied him tight, "Mercy, Mercy, come to my room tonight and make a man of me."

 

Quote

Izembaro was calling for her again. Now he could not find his boar spear. Mercy found it for him, helped Big Brusco don his boar suit, checked the trick daggers just to make certain no one had replaced one with a real blade (someone had done that at the Dome once, and a mummer had died), and poured Lady Stork the little nip of wine she liked to have before each play. When all the cries of "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" finally died away, she stole a moment for a quick peek out into the house.

 

Quote

 

Mercy mouthed the last lines along with him. They were better lines than hers, and apt besides. He'll want me or he won't, she thought, so let the play begin. She said a silent prayer to the god of many faces, slipped out of her alcove, and flounced up to the guardsmen. Mercy, Mercy, Mercy. "My lords," she said, "do you speak Braavosi? Oh, please, tell me you do."

 

 

Quote

"Mercy," she said. "My name is Mercy. Can you say it?"

 

"Mercy," he said. "My name is Raff."

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

And she wasn't resurrected by Thoros, who refused.  Beric raised her and expired himself.

Or perhaps, if there was a skinchanger inhabiting Beric, he needed a way to exit one body and enter another. Beric placed his lips on Catelyn's. 

What if this skinchanger's original body is dead? Instead of a second death and being forced to remain in a dead host, they had discovered that they could move from one host to another by using the mouth?

Speaking of dying by strangulation and entering another host through the mouth - Othor jammed his fist into Jon’s mouth, right? Perhaps he was seeking an entry?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Or perhaps, if there was a skinchanger inhabiting Beric, he needed a way to exit one body and enter another. Beric placed his lips on Catelyn's. 

What if this skinchanger's original body is dead? Instead of a second death and being forced to remain in a dead host, they had discovered that they could move from one host to another by using the mouth?

Speaking of dying by strangulation and entering another host through the mouth - Othor jammed his fist into Jon’s mouth, right? Perhaps he was seeking an entry? 

I don't know.  Thoros resurrected Beric seven times; something he was never expecting considering that he had spoken the words many times to no avail.  It seems to me that there is another agency involved that uses Thoros as a conduit but a rather selective agency.  Whatever possessed Beric to pass the flame to Catelyn is beyond me especially since Thoros refused.   We do know that Beric couldn't be resurrected again since Thoros said it would be the end of them both.

The business of Othor placing his hand in Jon's mouth reminds me of Jaqen placing his hand into the mouth of the weirwood:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

 

Othor is another one of those cases where he seems to be more than just a mindless wight; but one with a purpose.   I don't know what this action means or what Othor is reacting to in Jon; but it's very strange.     

   

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know.  Thoros resurrected Beric seven times; something he was never expecting considering that he had spoken the words many times to no avail.  It seems to me that there is another agency involved that uses Thoros as a conduit but a rather selective agency.  Whatever possessed Beric to pass the flame to Catelyn is beyond me especially since Thoros refused.   We do know that Beric couldn't be resurrected again since Thoros said it would be the end of them both.

The business of Othor placing his hand in Jon's mouth reminds me of Jaqen placing his hand into the mouth of the weirwood:

Othor is another one of those cases where he seems to be more than just a mindless wight; but one with a purpose.   I don't know what this action means or what Othor is reacting to in Jon; but it's very strange.     

   

Varamyr explained that when the host is being killed, the pain forced him out. But I realize this wouldn’t explain where “Beric” went.

[LynnS]

Just now, Feather Crystal said:

Varamyr explained that when the host is being killed, the pain forced him out. But I realize this wouldn’t explain where “Beric” went.

Varamyr always takes over a new live body when he dies.  Thoros continually resurrects the same old dead body.  I'm not sure that qualifies as skinchanging.  Beric also loses more of his memory.  This doesn't happen to Varamyr.  Moving to a new live person and forcing them out and re-animating a dead body seem to be two different things.

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Better question: why was Robert alone in the Stoney Sept and not with his army? I know that he lost his battle with Tarly, but surely some of his army was able to get away. Maybe Robert sent his army North and stayed behind to buy them some time? Hang behind to entertain himself? IDK, but he should have had more than himself in the Stoney Sept. That leads me to think that Ned brought down a fraction of the army, and then they rendezvoused back in Riverrun to get get the Tully alliance.  

It is either that he was alone or the text is worded in a way that makes it seem he didn't have an army with him. It is said that he was wounded, probably at Ashford, and being tended by friends. That he was hiding and JonCon's forces couldn't find him. There is no mention of any men with Robert, or any force that was opposing JonCon's search until Eddard and Hoster Tully stormed the walls of Stoney Sept. At this time, bells started ringing to warn the people of the town to stay in their homes. Robert is said to have come out of hiding when the bells began to ring and he is credited with killing six men. JonCon is credited with wounding Hoster Tully badly and killing Denys Arryn. Again, no mention of Jon Arryn in this account of the Battle of the Bells.

Quote

 

Stoney Sept was the biggest town Arya had seen since King's Landing, and Harwin said her father had won a famous battle here.

 

"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started searching house by house. Before they could find him, though, Lord Eddard and your grandfather came down on the town and stormed the walls. Lord Connington fought back fierce. They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. But when he saw the day was lost, he flew off as fast as the griffins on his shield. The Battle of the Bells, they called it after. Robert always said your father won it, not him."  ASOS-Arya V

 

So, if Robert was alone, what happened to his army of Stormlander's? Did they abandon him after Ashford? It sounds like Robert's forces stayed largely intact after the Battle of Ashford and they moved north to join the northern army, this is according to the wiki, although I can't verify that in the text. But why no mention of Robert's men fighting in Stoney Sept? It's odd, but it's odder to imagine that Robert Baratheon was without his army, or at least some men. It is also hard to imagine that Robert traveled all the way from Ashford to Stoney Sept alone. Just more information we have not been given yet, I guess.

 

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

While JonCon only mentions Ned and Hoster as coming down, there are other sources that list all three as fighting at Stoney Sept against Jon Connington. Jon Arryn's cousin and heir died during the Battle of the Bells.

I am curious where you found a source for Jon Arryn to be at the Battle of the Bells. I can't find that anywhere, and I have been looking. If you could point me in the right direction, I can stop squinting over the text. 

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Varamyr always takes over a new live body when he dies.  Thoros continually resurrects the same old dead body.  I'm not sure that qualifies as skinchanging.  Beric also loses more of his memory.  This doesn't happen to Varamyr.  Moving to a new live person and forcing them out and re-animating a dead body seem to be two different things.

Varamyr described being forced out of the eagle when it burned, and he always had his own body to go back to. His knowledge of second lives is limited to what Haggon told him. If the skinchanger’s body dies, Haggon taught him that he’d be restricted to the host body, but that’s because he’d lack a means of transmission. If his spirit left the body voluntarily, it’d float away, but what if there exists a way to move from one body to another? Thoros uses his mouth to resurrect Beric, so maybe Thoros hasnt been telling us the whole truth and has been the conduit by being a temporary host?

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Varamyr described being forced out of the eagle when it burned, and he always had his own body to go back to. His knowledge of second lives is limited to what Haggon told him. If the skinchanger’s body dies, Haggon taught him that he’d be restricted to the host body, but that’s because he’d lack a means of transmission. If his spirit left the body voluntarily, it’d float away, but what if there exists a way to move from one body to another? Thoros uses his mouth to resurrect Beric, so maybe Thoros hasnt been telling us the whole truth and has been the conduit by being a temporary host?

Or maybe Thoros just doesn't know.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or maybe Thoros just doesn't know.

Doesn’t know there’s an extra spirit residing inside him? Bran understood the Hodor knew when he was being inhabited.