Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well if the rose turned black because of frost; then it's also possible her hands were frostbitten causing the fingers to be black.  But I'm still of a mind that the rose petals were dead and black.  This suggests that Lyanna died sometime late winter or early spring. 

Lyanna went missing at the beginning of the new year when winter returned with a vengeance.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well if the rose turned black because of frost; then it's also possible her hands were frostbitten causing the fingers to be black.  But I'm still of a mind that the rose petals were dead and black.  This suggests that Lyanna died sometime late winter or early spring. 

Yes, frostbite would cause black fingers, and the whole hand would turn black before her palm.   Black palms with healthy fingers is almost impossible from frostbite, you'd need something super cold. 

[Mullocose]

On 3/24/2019 at 11:01 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Is her palm black, or are the pedals black? I vote flower pedals.

  

Correct grammer would point towards the flower petals being black...

However, Ned had already described the Rose Petals in his dream as being blue...

Therefore, IMO, it can't be the rose petals that were black, it was her hands - she was a Wight..

[Mullocose]

10 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

 

 "rose petals spilling from her dead, black hand."

Had GRRM written the above, it would have given it all away...

GRRM taught a writing class at some university (or something)... I feel quite confident that he has studied & lectured upon practically all known ways to foreshadow by the subtlest of means possible... 

I don't think it was clumsy writing... I think it was absolutely intentional...

--

The idea of being "Born with the Dead" was introduced in the 1st chapter... & the way writing works, someone in our story MUST be Born with the Dead... There are few options for which character(s) could fit this criteria...

This is my opinion, of course, but I don't think it was clumsy writing - I think it was the exact opposite...

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Mullocose said:

Correct grammer would point towards the flower petals being black...

However, Ned had already described the Rose Petals in his dream as being blue...

Therefore, IMO, it can't be the rose petals that were black, it was her hands - she was a Wight..

While I acknowledge that it could have been her palm that was black, the dead don’t currently raise as wights south of the Wall. Tyrion comments that he’s lived through nine winters, so plenty of opportunity to have seen wights before south of the Wall, but of course no one has before, because the Wall was keeping magic contained. If Lyanna’s palm were indeed black, I think LynnS’s explanation of frostbite makes more sense. 

[Lady Dyanna]

8 hours ago, St Daga said:

Also, I don't think the rose petals are black, I think they are blue, but the light shining on them makes them appear black. The green and yellow glass filter, or a red filter, if the answer is a brothel. What color do dead blue rose petal's turn, anyway? Darker blue, I would think.

You know what this makes me think of? The brothel that Tyrion goes to in order to sneak out to see Shay. It’s described as having stained glass windows in that upstairs room.

Alternatively, roses and green/yellow make me think of Highgarden and the Tyrells. 

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, Mullocose said:

The idea of being "Born with the Dead" was introduced in the 1st chapter... & the way writing works, someone in our story MUST be Born with the Dead... There are few options for which character(s) could fit this criteria...

Rolling along with your idea ... what makes you think that it absolutely has to be Lyanna and that it already happened ?

( I assume you mean

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales … maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."
"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."
"No matter," said Hullen. "They be dead soon enough too."

from Bran I.

)

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Rolling along with your idea ... what makes you think that it absolutely has to be Lyanna and that it already happened ?

( I assume you mean

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales … maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."
"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."
"No matter," said Hullen. "They be dead soon enough too."

from Bran I.

)

I like the idea of Jon or another character being "born with the dead", and not getting hung up on Lyanna's black palm certainly doesn't preclude that she wasn't dead before giving birth.  But even if it only applies to the direwolves, it is significant.  We have lots of elements around death (the Others and Faceless men being the most prominent).

[SirArthur]

23 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I like the idea of Jon or another character being "born with the dead", and not getting hung up on Lyanna's black palm certainly doesn't preclude that she wasn't dead before giving birth.  But even if it only applies to the direwolves, it is significant.  We have lots of elements around death (the Others and Faceless men being the most prominent).

Wasn't there also the Catelyn pregnancy prayer/thought that went nowhere with her death ?

[St Daga]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, I see your points as also being true, but since the play is about treachery done by the bloody hand, and Tywin tricked Aerys into opening the gates, and how people didn't know which side of the rebellion he was actually on....I was going with Robert and Rhaegar. Robert was once a maiden's dream, but he did become fat. And once Tywin wanted young Rhaegar as a match for his daughter...so I'm not thinking it's a literal interpretation.

I can see your interpretation as being a covert look at the past, but I really think the play that Arya is working on deals with Ned as "the bloody hand" (although it's possible it's Tyrion, since he has a part to play) meaning The Bloody Hand is more of a position than just one man, Robert and Joffrey's kingship, the beautiful queen is Cersei. there is even a boar, which seems a solid wink at Robert's death. I think, at least it's more obvious form, is related to the more current events that are going on in Westeros. Now, for your inversion work, I can see a path into interpreting history of Robert's Rebellion. If we get more details of the play, I would almost bet that Arya as Mercy is playing the part of Sansa, the maiden who is raped/married to Tyrion.

And just while I am thinking about it, do you really think this Brusco of the play is the same Brusco the fishmonger? Why would a man who has a business as a fishmonger spend all his days moonlighting as an actor? The name is the same, but it just doesn't seem to fit. Perhaps Brusco is a name that is pretty common in Braavos, much like Pate seems to be common in Westeros.

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Good points, and I like the reasoning. If Ned did dress a corpse in a dress and pushed it from the tower, people would only see a woman's dress and make assumptions. It would be a lot easier this way to conceal a man in a woman's dress if the body were lost into the sea.

I'm glad you brought up Lysa and her attempt to push Sansa out the Moon Door, because I think Sansa is a mirror to Ashara. The intention to push Sansa, but having Lysa fall instead confirms the swap.

Even though it's possible, I am very doubtful that Ned dressed anyone up in a dress just to stage them going out of a window. I think if someone went out the window, and I think it was Ashara, that it involved an actual fight, such as we see with Sansa and Lysa, It does seem like the story that we get of Ashara and Lyanna from the rebellion era is almost a story of sisters, even if not by actual blood, so in the Eryie, we have a sister and the daughter of a sister, Lysa and Cat's daughter Sansa, with a third party. So the mirror into the past is Ashara and Lyanna's child (?) and a third party, who saves the child by pushing Ashara/Lysa from a door/window. Or that is how I have come to interpret these situations. Except, I am not sold on that child being Jon, since I think Jon was in the north by this time. So, did Lyanna have another child? A twin, or a second, later pregnancy? I really don't know.

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Quote

While journeying from Stoney Sept to the kingsroad, Ser Duncan the Tall and Prince Aegon Targaryen took Ned's ferry across the Gods Eye to attend the festivities.

So, the route Dunk and Egg took from Stoney Sept...they had to take Ned's ferry across the God's Eye to get to Whitewalls. If this is a prior repeat to Ned's route after the Battle of the Bells, how did he know to stop at Whitewalls? I had noticed that there appeared to be an unexplained gap between the Battle of Stoney Sept and the Trident, and also the perceived retreat on the part of the rebel forces. If you look at where Stoney Sept is and then look at the Trident - why did the rebel forces retreat north like that? There's no need to take this particular route to get to the Ruby Ford of the Trident from Stoney Sept - you could just march north over land - so if Ned did indeed take a ferry across the God's Eye, then he had some intelligence that told him where to find Lyanna, which now appears to be Whitewalls.

Yes, it is interesting that the ferry man is called Ned, but I am not sure that every Ned in the story has a connection to Ned Stark. Certainly, it seems like Ned Dayne might, but I am not sure about Ned of the Ferry, and we also have Noseless Ned Woods who is from the north and is sworn to House Glover and ends up as a scout for Stannis.

However, the movements of the northern army during the rebellion do seem a bit odd, but that could be explained by the army moving south to rescue Robert at Stoney Sept and then marching back north if Ned and Catelyn's marriage was AFTER The Battle of the Bells. We really don't know if was before or after, and I think it's vague because it reveals something GRRM isn't ready to reveal. If Ned came south to rescue Robert with only a small part of his army, Jon Arryn's army (was Jon Arryn's army even at Stoney Sept?) and Hoster Tully's army, then it makes sense that they might have had to retreat and regroup and merge with the greater part of their force. Just like Robb split his force, Ned might have been forced to do that to, and it seems plain that mounted warriors can travel faster and cover greater distance than an army on foot, and Ned must have been desperate to rescue Robert. While the rebel forces are credited with the victory, it seems like the loyalist forces had a pretty orderly retreat, which could mean that the rebel forces didn't dare push south at this time, because they faced poor odds or much greater numbers if they did.

[JNR]

19 hours ago, alienarea said:

'... as she gave up her clutch on life.' Lyanna dies, she cannot be a wight. It's the petals.

Yes, I think it's clear that a wight could not have died.

And Ned would not then have embraced a wight, so that

Quote

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.

The reason it says "her body" and "grief" is that she just died. 

Also of course, Ned wouldn't have been silent.

Lyanna the Undead Wight would have said  "Why are you holding my body, you perv?" and Ned would have had to defend his bizarre behavior.

[St Daga]

15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Lyanna's palm being either dead or black is just plain silly, and I am surprised anyone even picked up on the slightly clumsy wording.

The wording has always seemed so out of place to me, but we all focus on different things. I think GRRM is being purposefully vague by wording things as he does in this sentence, mostly because it does sound clumsy, but GRRM isn't a clumsy wordsmith. That is why I think there is more to the wording that could indeed indicate the palms were black and not the roses. I actually believed that for years and years, and it won't surprise me if Lyanna's black palm ends up being the answer. But right now, I think it could be the rose petals, but mostly just related to the my pet theory that Lyanna died in the glass gardens, hinted at by the yellow and green glass roof.

 

8 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

You know what this makes me think of? The brothel that Tyrion goes to in order to sneak out to see Shay. It’s described as having stained glass windows in that upstairs room.

Alternatively, roses and green/yellow make me think of Highgarden and the Tyrells. 

Yes, there is that concept of the stained glass in the brothel, but for the most part we associate brothels with red lanterns (so red glass in a lantern). Stained glass in general is more often associated with the light in the septs and the rainbow colors of stained glass also hint at the crystals associated with the Faith of the Seven.

Quite right about the roses and the green and yellow seeming like a connection to House Tyrell. It is interesting.  I wonder how long the glass gardens at Winterfell have had yellow and green glass? Is it a new addition or old? Long before House Tyrell came into existence? Or will we find that some how yellow and green glass filter's light that helps roses bloom? Because while most roses in general, and a golden rose for certain, are associated with House Tyrell, it seems to be House Stark that is associated with a blue rose, a winter rose, pale as frost! 

 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

11 hours ago, Mullocose said:

The idea of being "Born with the Dead" was introduced in the 1st chapter... & the way writing works, someone in our story MUST be Born with the Dead... There are few options for which character(s) could fit this criteria...

Rolling along with your idea ... what makes you think that it absolutely has to be Lyanna and that it already happened ?

( I assume you mean

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales … maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."
"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."
"No matter," said Hullen. "They be dead soon enough too."

The thing that has always seemed odd to me if those pups were born of a dead direwolf mother, or even if it was just Ghost, how were they born? If you are dead, your heart stops pumping blood and your uterus is basically stopped contracting. It seems highly unlikely a dead uterus could spit out a whole litter of pups. Of course, they could have been cut out of the mother, but there are no hints of that when they see the direwolf's body. This would involve human or COTF intervention, and there are no hints of that in text.

Also, how are these pups dried off if their mother was dead AND there was no outside help? But the idea of "born with the dead" does come at us early in the story, but we also have hints of Stark babies born to Stark maid's in the crypts of Winterfell, which could also fit the theme of "born with the dead"!

 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I like the idea of Jon or another character being "born with the dead", and not getting hung up on Lyanna's black palm certainly doesn't preclude that she wasn't dead before giving birth.  But even if it only applies to the direwolves, it is significant.  We have lots of elements around death (the Others and Faceless men being the most prominent).

If a baby was born of a dead Lyanna, it would need to be born by c-sect and quickly, as there is no blood or heart beat to the infant inside the uterus once the mother dies. However, if Lyanna was like a wight, but not a classic flesh rotting wight, could she maintain a pregnancy longer than most people. After all, we are told that Stark's are hard to kill. It's a theme we get early in the story! Or, Lyanna gave birth in the crypts of Winterfell or another type of graveyard!

 

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Wasn't there also the Catelyn pregnancy prayer/thought that went nowhere with her death ?

 Yes, it's like a huge, unanswered question to me. There is a theme that runs through both Ned and Cat's story that talks about another child, a son. It comes up early in the story with Cat thinking she wasn't to old to give him another son, it comes in Ned's thoughts when he thinks to return to Winterfell and that he and Cat can make another son. And when both of them die, that seems to just be some odd foreshadowing that just ends abruptly! One thing I do see in Ned's story, when Cat looks down at his bones and notes that "that is not his sword" which has always reminded me of the Osiris myth, with Osiris being murdered by his brother Set and his body dismembered and tossed into the Nile. But Osiris wife and sister, Isis, puts all the pieces back together, except his manhood was missing as it was eaten by a crocodile (this has some hints to House Reed's lizard-lion to me) but she get's him a new phallus, and they create another child, a child that defeats Set and saves the world, usually this child is Horus.

So, I think there is some precedent in mythology for Ned and Cat to have a child together still, born of two dead parents. What kind of monster child would that end up being?

IF you really want some tinfoil, I think that Barbrey Dustin might want Ned's bones to use in some kind of resurrection ritual. Something about her in the barrow lands hints at this, even though she is a Ryswell by blood and a Dustin only by marriage. 

 

[St Daga]

26 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yes, I think it's clear that a wight could not have died.

And Ned would not then have embraced a wight, so that

We are given the idea early in the story that "Stark's are hard to kill" but it's not impossible, since Rickard, Brandon and Ned are dead. And Lyanna! But are they dead like every other human? What do swords have to be laid across their laps to keep their spirits from roaming? This seems like something we don't see with other families. And we do have some precedent with Coldhands (yes, I think he has Stark blood) having some wight like features but being able to walk and take and ride an elk, but he is clearly not alive. So, could Lyanna have been like this?

As for Ned embracing his dead(ish) sister, I think he would. He loved her with all his heart, after all! That's a lot of love! And his reaction to her death sent him into a silent grief. It's powerful imagery and indicates a deep type of love and connection, at least to me.

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Mullocose said:

Correct grammer would point towards the flower petals being black...

However, Ned had already described the Rose Petals in his dream as being blue...

Therefore, IMO, it can't be the rose petals that were black, it was her hands - she was a Wight..

With respect, I don't think she was a wight or she would be undead.  The storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death is dream symbolism and really doesn't tell us the color of the petals; but it does make a reference to the wights beyond the Wall.   The blue winter rose makes a connection to House Stark and perhaps the crown of roses given to Lyanna; this act foreshadowing calamity.

The memory of petals falling from Lyanna's hand, dead and black is transformed in the dream to the storm of petals.  What can be dead and black but the Black Brothers, so this seems a reference to Jon Snow and the Night Watch along with the imagery of a blood streaked sky or the appearance of the red comet.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

As for the notion that Jon was born with the dead or that the direwolf gave birth at the moment of death or shortly after; it's worth noting that Ghost is the first born and older than the other pups because his eyes are opened while the others are not.  So it may be that the direwolf was not dying when the white wolf was born.  The notion that Lyanna was dying shortly after giving birth is not out of the question.  But it's hard to think that she died and then give birth given Ned's recollection of the event.

     

[Brad Stark]

Humans are altricial, as babies, we are helpless and dependent on care.  Wolves and dogs are considered altricial as well, although somewhat more mobile and independent than humans.   Direwolves, as fictional animals, could go either way but are likely altricial as well.  The chapter they are found gives us some idea of what the cubs can do. 

The likelihood of altricial young surviving their mother's death without help is extremely low, but I wouldn't consider it impossible.   The got comments about this being a bad omen means it was considered believable to a book character.  Escaping the mother's body wouldn't be the only challenge, as such a baby would soon starve if they didn't die of hypothermia or predation first.  So in a fictional story, it isn't beyond belief that a single human could be born this way.   But it is extremely unlikely a whole litter of wolves could, without a single casualty. 

This adds more to the 'artificial' view of the direwolf scene.   Someone intentionally killed the mother after (or before) she gave birth and intentionally placed the cubs where they were found. 

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

 Yes, it's like a huge, unanswered question to me. There is a theme that runs through both Ned and Cat's story that talks about another child, a son. It comes up early in the story with Cat thinking she wasn't to old to give him another son, it comes in Ned's thoughts when he thinks to return to Winterfell and that he and Cat can make another son.

It's a typical GRRM. He tells you how awesome it would be if Chekov's gun would fire, describes it in awesome ways and then some random guy gets stabbed with a knife, because the gun couldn't be hidden under the carpet. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I can see your interpretation as being a covert look at the past, but I really think the play that Arya is working on deals with Ned as "the bloody hand" (although it's possible it's Tyrion, since he has a part to play) meaning The Bloody Hand is more of a position than just one man, Robert and Joffrey's kingship, the beautiful queen is Cersei. there is even a boar, which seems a solid wink at Robert's death. I think, at least it's more obvious form, is related to the more current events that are going on in Westeros. Now, for your inversion work, I can see a path into interpreting history of Robert's Rebellion. If we get more details of the play, I would almost bet that Arya as Mercy is playing the part of Sansa, the maiden who is raped/married to Tyrion.

My inversion theory includes a wheel of time where specific events get repeated. The outcomes are different, because there are different people in position, and individuals make their own decisions which end up affecting/changing the ending. Sometimes it's a complete inversion, but sometimes it's a parallel with a twist, but this play is just one example. It can be about more than one Bloody Hand. Take Izembaro for instance. He wants to play the "fat" king, but he's also a dwarf. Tyrion was never a king - at least not yet - and wouldn't that be interesting if this play could also be viewed as prophetic? I'll have to go back and reread to see if they mention who was playing the Hand, because at the moment I don't recall this character being discussed. I think the premise of the play is the Hand's choice between two kings and what happened to these kings.

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

And just while I am thinking about it, do you really think this Brusco of the play is the same Brusco the fishmonger? Why would a man who has a business as a fishmonger spend all his days moonlighting as an actor? The name is the same, but it just doesn't seem to fit. Perhaps Brusco is a name that is pretty common in Braavos, much like Pate seems to be common in Westeros.

I have wondered if this is the same Brusco or not. It is possible that it's a different Brusco, because they call him "Big" Brusco, which implies he's someone similar in position as Hoster, but with more power. I am considering Jon Arryn as a mirror for Big Brusco, because I suspect he was in contact with Tywin as early as his defiance of Aerys. BUT, Big Brusco could also be Walder Frey, even though Walder is technically Hoster's bannerman and beneath him, he's wealthier and stronger than his liege lord. I haven't fully examined the Mercy chapter...these are just my early impressions, and with more research I expect further revelations.

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Even though it's possible, I am very doubtful that Ned dressed anyone up in a dress just to stage them going out of a window. I think if someone went out the window, and I think it was Ashara, that it involved an actual fight, such as we see with Sansa and Lysa, It does seem like the story that we get of Ashara and Lyanna from the rebellion era is almost a story of sisters, even if not by actual blood, so in the Eryie, we have a sister and the daughter of a sister, Lysa and Cat's daughter Sansa, with a third party. So the mirror into the past is Ashara and Lyanna's child (?) and a third party, who saves the child by pushing Ashara/Lysa from a door/window. Or that is how I have come to interpret these situations. Except, I am not sold on that child being Jon, since I think Jon was in the north by this time. So, did Lyanna have another child? A twin, or a second, later pregnancy? I really don't know.

A true parallel would dictate that a woman would have pushed the corpse out the window, and if Ned did indeed reach Starfall, it may have been a servant or family member that was in agreement with following through on a fake suicide for Ashara. I'm quite convinced Ashara is still alive and is in disguise as Lady Lenore. 

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

However, the movements of the northern army during the rebellion do seem a bit odd, but that could be explained by the army moving south to rescue Robert at Stoney Sept and then marching back north if Ned and Catelyn's marriage was AFTER The Battle of the Bells. We really don't know if was before or after, and I think it's vague because it reveals something GRRM isn't ready to reveal. If Ned came south to rescue Robert with only a small part of his army, Jon Arryn's army (was Jon Arryn's army even at Stoney Sept?) and Hoster Tully's army, then it makes sense that they might have had to retreat and regroup and merge with the greater part of their force. Just like Robb split his force, Ned might have been forced to do that to, and it seems plain that mounted warriors can travel faster and cover greater distance than an army on foot, and Ned must have been desperate to rescue Robert. While the rebel forces are credited with the victory, it seems like the loyalist forces had a pretty orderly retreat, which could mean that the rebel forces didn't dare push south at this time, because they faced poor odds or much greater numbers if they did.

I think Catelyn's recollection of Ned remaining at Riverrun with her for two weeks is an indication that they married prior to the Battle of the Bells, because Hoster would need time to gather his men. It's not like he automatically had an army standing at the ready that could rush off as soon as Ned and Jon asked for them. They would have to negotiate, and then have time to call Tully bannermen, and wait for them to gather. 

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Yes, there is that concept of the stained glass in the brothel, but for the most part we associate brothels with red lanterns (so red glass in a lantern). Stained glass in general is more often associated with the light in the septs and the rainbow colors of stained glass also hint at the crystals associated with the Faith of the Seven.

Quite right about the roses and the green and yellow seeming like a connection to House Tyrell. It is interesting.  I wonder how long the glass gardens at Winterfell have had yellow and green glass? Is it a new addition or old? Long before House Tyrell came into existence? Or will we find that some how yellow and green glass filter's light that helps roses bloom? Because while most roses in general, and a golden rose for certain, are associated with House Tyrell, it seems to be House Stark that is associated with a blue rose, a winter rose, pale as frost! 

 

IMO the brothel motif that readers are picking up on is more of a metaphor than a place where maidens could hide. Women didn't have autonomy in a medieval society. I think GRRM is portraying the fathers as pimps and the daughters as protitutes - selling their maidenheads for alliances and political power.

I agree that "red" is associated with brothels, and that yellow and green should be associated with septs, and it is possible that the Winterfell greenhouse was also once a sept, because why would you purposely build a greenhouse with such expensive, colored glass?

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

If a baby was born of a dead Lyanna, it would need to be born by c-sect and quickly, as there is no blood or heart beat to the infant inside the uterus once the mother dies. However, if Lyanna was like a wight, but not a classic flesh rotting wight, could she maintain a pregnancy longer than most people. After all, we are told that Stark's are hard to kill. It's a theme we get early in the story! Or, Lyanna gave birth in the crypts of Winterfell or another type of graveyard!

 

Sadly, the dead can expel fetuses.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

This adds more to the 'artificial' view of the direwolf scene.   Someone intentionally killed the mother after (or before) she gave birth and intentionally placed the cubs where they were found.  

Yes, this is a distinct possibility.

[Janneyc1]

17 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Yes, frostbite would cause black fingers, and the whole hand would turn black before her palm.   Black palms with healthy fingers is almost impossible from frostbite, you'd need something super cold. 

Or something really hot. a concentrated source of heat could produce a full thickness burn in one area, but leave others relatively unaffected.