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Black Crow

Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

 

I once thought that to be possible. but having cogitated on it for nearly a decade, I now think that the momentum of GRRM's story demands the intervention of magic and the consequences which follow.

I keep my long odds bet on Jon "dancing" anon with Alys. The merge of the Direwolf and the Sun of Winter into one mind, married into the "last of the First Men". She/He will surely has more of the North in him (her). Osha told us that "Winter's got no king", but GRRM has given us "Winter's lady" with icy crown and all.

Edited by Tucu

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, I meant actors. I've read more than one interview where the actors said they planned on rereading the books, because the finale didn't turn out the way they predicted or thought it would. 

Reading Vladimir Furdik's interview, I suspect the actors may not be getting the whole truth, or may even be told lies.  An actor only needs to know enough to play their role.  If the Night King's last episode is episode 3, he doesn't need to know what happens in 4, 5 and 6 - and with the amount of secrecy, I could see telling him something completely wrong and off the mark in case anything leaks.

Vladimir says the Night's King wants revenge against those that made him what he is, and has a specific target, but is otherwise just a cold inhuman with no backstory.  I'd bet we see more backstory, but D&D don't want Vladimir acting based on who he was - they just want a cold inhuman bent on revenge, so they didn't share his backstory.

I don't know, but I saw a lot less of GRRM in season 7, so I doubt D&D have much to work off of for season 8, and probably made up the whole thing.  The show at this point is more fan fiction than anything else, and probably not even as close to the unwritten books as it would be if someone on this forum were writing it.

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On 3/10/2019 at 7:24 AM, Black Crow said:

She does if she is the mother of a lawfully born Lord of Winterfell.

My tin-foil ish theory is that Jeyne will be rescued by the BwB. However, the story we get is of their flight to Winterfell, using flashbacks to show how the raid went down. Perhaps they grabbed a maester along the way and that is who is narrating. 

21 hours ago, JNR said:

You mean the actors?  I don't think most of them ever even read the books in the first place.  I'm sure they're nice people,  but if you gave them a pop quiz -- "Who became Jorah Mormont's wife?" -- I think every one of them would flunk.

I originally read that as Jeor Mormont and was scratching my head for a hot second. 

 

16 hours ago, JNR said:

This figure from many thousands of years ago, and what he did, and why, are topics not very well understood in Westeros the continent (or Westeros the Web site either), we can be sure of that.  There isn't even any agreement in the myths about which family he came from -- there are some eight different versions or so.

So even if Jon does develop in some parallel fashion, it will probably be parallel to the actual Night's King, not the figure of myth.

We have worked with the "Wheel of Time" concept for awhile. I think that Jon's story in the future will show us the story that happened long ago. I think it will reveal an ancient pact to basically leave the Popsicles alone north of their Wall. 

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13 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't know, but I saw a lot less of GRRM in season 7, so I doubt D&D have much to work off of for season 8, and probably made up the whole thing.  The show at this point is more fan fiction than anything else, and probably not even as close to the unwritten books as it would be if someone on this forum were writing it.

Agreed on that note. I suspect that the future books will be very different. 

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On 3/10/2019 at 2:48 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Book readers know that dragons cannot pass over the Wall, therefore it's highly unlikely that a dragon would end up wighted.

As long as the wall stands upright...

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4 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

As long as the wall stands upright...

That reminds me, what are the different methods that we think might cause the Wall to fall? My guess is the Horn of Winter being sounded. 

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I think the Night's King was simply a man that had been "otherized" in order to justify killing him. The story talks about him being a "man by day".

 

Quote

 

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

 

 

If he looked like a man, at least during the day, then he wouldn't look like the one on the mummer's show, which could mean two things:

1) He was simply a man that was taken down by mutiny

2) He changed into a creature at night. Sounds more like a skinchanger slipping his skin while sleeping.

He did have a close female companion like Stannis does with Mel, but Stannis isn't a Lord Commander so I don't think he's the modern day Night's King. Jon had first Ygritte, and then perhaps Val. Neither relationship has stood the length of time. The Night's King held his position with his woman by his side for 13 years, and the Watch allowed it, thereby starting the "ensorcelled" rumor.

 

5 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

That reminds me, what are the different methods that we think might cause the Wall to fall? My guess is the Horn of Winter being sounded. 

I tend to think the Wall is already slowly disintegrating. It's blowing away in the form of a blizzard. The magic wards holding it together are old and fraying. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

That reminds me, what are the different methods that we think might cause the Wall to fall? My guess is the Horn of Winter being sounded. 

Good question.

I have no favorite, but I guess it will NOT be by a blue-eyed dragon via blue fire...

Edited by The Chequered Raven
spelling

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1 minute ago, The Chequered Raven said:

I have no favorite, but I gues it will NOT be by a blue-eyed dragon via blue fire...

I figure that's a safe bet

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1 minute ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Good question.

I have no favorite, but I gues it will NOT be by a blue-eyed dragon via blue fire...

I agree. The Wall would have to come down before any dragon might stand the chance of turning into a blue eyed wight dragon.

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15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't know, but I saw a lot less of GRRM in season 7, so I doubt D&D have much to work off of for season 8, and probably made up the whole thing.  The show at this point is more fan fiction than anything else, and probably not even as close to the unwritten books as it would be if someone on this forum were writing it.

Yes, agreed, but I think we can be even more sure than you seem to think.

D&D have said outright that GRRM gave them three major revelations from unpublished books, and we know two of them involve Hodor and Shireen.  Well... these are not major characters.  These are not the primary subjects of fan interest or investment.  These are table scraps. 

We also know the specific manner in which these two revelations played out can't be the same in the books as in the show.

The third thing applies to "the very end," we're told.  So it can't be Jon's parentage, which wasn't even given in the final season.

So in short, we know that at least two-thirds of what GRRM gave D&D from the last two books was relatively minor, and we also know it wasn't Jon's parentage.

We also know that D&D's version of the origin of the Popsicles is not correct or canonical, because the "true origin" of the Popsicles is a selling point HBO is using to promote the forthcoming prequel show.

So from this, we know D&D can and will make up their own solutions to major mysteries.  That they did so in other cases seems very likely, and in the above discussion, we find a good example.

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2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

We have worked with the "Wheel of Time" concept for awhile. I think that Jon's story in the future will show us the story that happened long ago. I think it will reveal an ancient pact to basically leave the Popsicles alone north of their Wall. 

Yes, we basically agree about this, though I don't think it was a pact.  I think the myths are correct and the Popsicles were eventually beaten.

Your first point is a very important one IMO.  We usually talk about what we can guess for future books from the myths, and that is helpful stuff indeed, but it is also possible to learn about historical realities from the current story.

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6 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yes, agreed, but I think we can be even more sure than you seem to think.

D&D have said outright that GRRM gave them three major revelations from unpublished books, and we know two of them involve Hodor and Shireen.  Well... these are not major characters.  These are not the primary subjects of fan interest or investment.  These are table scraps. 

We also know the specific manner in which these two revelations played out can't be the same in the books as in the show.

The third thing applies to "the very end," we're told.  So it can't be Jon's parentage, which wasn't even given in the final season.

So in short, we know that at least two-thirds of what GRRM gave D&D from the last two books was relatively minor, and we also know it wasn't Jon's parentage.

We also know that D&D's version of the origin of the Popsicles is not correct or canonical, because the "true origin" of the Popsicles is a selling point HBO is using to promote the forthcoming prequel show.

So from this, we know D&D can and will make up their own solutions to major mysteries.  That they did so in other cases seems very likely, and in the above discussion, we find a good example.

I would hazard the guess that the 3rd thing they were told was that one of the dragons would die.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I would hazard the guess that the 3rd thing they were told was that one of the dragons would die.

I think you're very close:

 

Dany will die.  This was plainly, and I would even say painfully, foreshadowed in the show version of the HOTU visions, which conclude with Dany going beyond the Wall. We find her then meeting her dead husband and dead baby and asking "Am I dead?" 

Why yes, Dany... you are.  As we will all see very soon.

Edited by JNR

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1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

That reminds me, what are the different methods that we think might cause the Wall to fall? My guess is the Horn of Winter being sounded. 

honestly ? just heat. We had a very long summer and the Wall is cracking. The sonic wave from the horn may be the final nail, but the cracking and melting is the problem. 

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On 3/10/2019 at 3:52 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I never took Jon’s potential claim for Winterfell seriously. As soon as he turned Stannis down I felt his future remained with the Watch. I do believe he will be resurrected, and that whether it’s by Mel or Val, the final product is basically the same.

I actually find it interesting when compared with Edric Storm. Shows what a hypocrate Stannis is.

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4 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I actually find it interesting when compared with Edric Storm. Shows what a hypocrate Stannis is.

Not really a hypocrite, but legitimizing Eric wouldn’t exactly benefit Stannis, now would it? 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not really a hypocrite, but legitimizing Eric wouldn’t exactly benefit Stannis, now would it? 

He is a hypocrite exactly because he does what benefits him. He claimed the Iron Throne because Robert had no trueborn children. That is the entire point of the civil war. According to his own declaration Jon can not be Lord, because he is not trueborn. Robert saw Joeffrey as his son, this is as legitimized as it gets. That's the point, Stannis does what helps him, not what is consistent. And btw. Edric Storm is legitimized. That is the other point. Stannis is a hypocrite through and through. Ignoring legitimized Edric and "son" Joeffrey just to put another bastard(Jon) on a throne. The situation between Jon and Edric is not much different. Both are more ore less legitimized bastards with a claim to an empty throne.

All men know me for the trueborn son of Steffon Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, by his lady wife Cassana of House Estermont. I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer. By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Let all true men declare their loyalty. Done in the Light of the Lord, under the sign and seal of Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.

Edited by SirArthur

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

I think you're very close:

I agree with that interpretation of the vision; however, that's before the Santa Fe meeting, so whatever it is foreshadowing with regards to Dany, those plans were already in place, and possibly even independent of GRRM's plans (or, alternately, based on information he had given before the Santa Fe meeting).

In an interview with TV Guide, before Season 1 had aired, D&D spoke a bit about being confident that ASOIAF and GoT wouldn't "pull a Lost," and already having some broad strokes in mind:

Quote

The author recently told The New Yorker he doesn't want to "do a Lost" and mess up the ending.

Series executive producers D.B. Weiss attempted to further calm their nerves, telling TVGuide.com, "We've talked through what the final episode, the final season will be." Executive producer David Benioff adds: "We can't wait to write that episode. Of the many different fears we have about the show, long-term momentum is not one of them. We're very confident."

...

"George has proven through the discussions we've had that he's always known in the rough, broad strokes where this is going to end up," Weiss says."And we think it's going to end up in a way that is uniquely satisfying."

Working with Martin comes with another perk as well: They don't have to wait till July to read the fifth A Song of Ice and Fire novel.

"We got the first 600 pages of A Dance With Dragons early from George," Benioff reveals. "Getting to read that is incredible. It's so much fun, but it's also really helpful for us because George had created such an immaculate beautiful world and we want to make sure that if there are going to be major developments in future seasons, we make sure we seed it properly in the first season."


...and Weiss' comments in a 2017 Time interview about the Santa Fe meeting:
 

Quote

"There were some details that were added later — but pretty much the actual endgame, the main climactic moments, we had in mind then. We had ninety percent of this crucial chunk of the story for the final season, and we were mainly talking to George to see how our notion of where things ended up jibed with his notion."


That certainly makes it sound as though they intended to execute the broad strokes of what they wanted their final season to look like, regardless of what they learned in Santa Fe.

....err, the point being that the HoTU vision - ruined throne room filled with snow, Dany passing the throne and instead heading beyond the Wall as a metaphor for going into the Night Lands - is foreshadowing for plans that were already in place. Accordingly, I don't think it fits for the third "holy shit" moment.

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I think the Night's King was simply a man that had been "otherized" in order to justify killing him. The story talks about him being a "man by day".

 

"Frank'n'furter it's all over, your mission is a failure, your lifestyle's too extreme ..."

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