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Black Crow

Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

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GRRM was very clear the show could not do the twist because the character was dead.  Cat is dead in the books, but brought back, so the show could use her in the twist by bringing her back the same way.  Of course the show decided not to, so they still couldn't do the twist, but the reason why would be different from what GRRM gave. 

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Stannis is a possibility cos he is a major player, and the Mummers version was pretty lame I thought. Or someone seemingly on the fringes eg Tarly betraying Highgarden and backing fAegon taking the best of Highgardens troops to take KL. Rickon but whats the twist he is just a pawn?

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Maybe the character killed in the show that is needed later on is Theon's 'tool'? If I recall correctly it   wasn't officially killed in the books. And is needed for Theon to rule the Iron Islands in the end.

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Barristan is my guess.  It has to either be someone who knows something, did something in the past or is a blood relative of another character - otherwise why not substitute another character?  Rickon is unlikely as he is too young to know or have done anything and has living siblings.

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30 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Barristan is my guess.  It has to either be someone who knows something, did something in the past or is a blood relative of another character - otherwise why not substitute another character?  Rickon is unlikely as he is too young to know or have done anything and has living siblings.

Agree, but isn't Barristan too obvious? 

What about Alliser Thorne? He's alive in the books, apparently not in on the mutiny, and may know a thing or two. He would also be secondary enough to not discuss his fate.

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I was told that I would get free bacon if I follow this thread...

Where is the Pork? 

The Pork that I was promised?

__

In truth, I came back so that I win the prize for best TWOW predictions - Assuming that Penguin Random House is still in business when GRRM is finished with TWOW...

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53 minutes ago, Mullocose said:

I was told that I would get free bacon if I follow this thread...

Where is the Pork? 

The Pork that I was promised?

__

In truth, I came back so that I win the prize for best TWOW predictions - Assuming that Penguin Random House is still in business when GRRM is finished with TWOW...

Currently, the best TWoW prediction is that it will not be finished :P

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

Agree, but isn't Barristan too obvious? 

What about Alliser Thorne? He's alive in the books, apparently not in on the mutiny, and may know a thing or two. He would also be secondary enough to not discuss his fate.

I also believe he wasn't part of the mutiny, but I believe he was on the show and this is unresolved in the books. 

I believe he was alive on the show at the time GRRM said this, between seasons 5 and 6.

GRRM obviously knows, so when he gave us his list, he either deliberately excluded this character or deliberately included them.  Excluding is more likely imo, especially if it is a minor character, so anyone who fits and isn't on the list is a prime suspect. 

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17 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe the character killed in the show that is needed later on is Theon's 'tool'? If I recall correctly it   wasn't officially killed in the books. And is needed for Theon to rule the Iron Islands in the end.

I think it was implied that Theon lost his tool to Ramsay's knife. 

 

17 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Barristan is my guess.  It has to either be someone who knows something, did something in the past or is a blood relative of another character - otherwise why not substitute another character?  Rickon is unlikely as he is too young to know or have done anything and has living siblings.

After Jon, Barristan is my second choice as well. He knows a lot, can do a lot, and I could see him changing his mind in a hurry if needed. 

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There is an SSM where grrm confirmed Theon cannot have children.  We never get exact details on what Ramsay did, but for plot purposes, it doesn't matter. 

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20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

As far as I can recall, the only character missing from that list is Jojen

Rhaegar's son Aegon is missing if he's real in the books. 

But if he is, then GRRM, of course, would never include him in such a list exactly to avoid spoiling that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JNR said:

Rhaegar's son Aegon is missing if he's real in the books. 

Yes, I think that would fit as well. I also forgot Hizdahr (died in season 5), though I shudder to think of a world in which TWOW has been delayed to accommodate a "great" Hizdarh twist.

I would also add that I think the twist is likely something that happened in the present, as any twist from the past, or that is contingent upon character knowledge, seems easy to shift elsewhere--Varys, for example, could "know" anything Barristan would know, greensight can show the past, and so forth.

My suspicion is that the twist must have had a "Meereenese Knot" effect, where adding the twist required several different POVs to have their chapters re-written.

To use the Aegon VI example, if the author decided to introduce an Aegon VI twist, that wouldn't just be limited to Jon Connington chapters, it would bleed into Arianne chapters, Areo chapters, Cersei chapters, Brienne chapters and Jaime chapters at a minimum; if it happens late, it's possibly bleeding into Tyrion, Dany, and other Meereenese knot POVs.

Myrcella would have a similar scope--many of the chapters that would need to be re-written to accommodate an Aegon VI twist would apply to Myrcella. 

Stannis/Selyse/Shireen are good possibilities, but my gut feeling here is that the northern plot line is a little more 'contained' and easy to manage, in comparison to any twist that would be introduced in the south.

Edited by Matthew.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/13/2019 at 6:57 PM, Matthew. said:

It's a character that would have died in the first five seasons, but is still alive in the books, and GRRM has a notablog post that effectively functions as a good list of prospects:
 

As far as I can recall, the only character missing from that list is Jojen--he died in season 4 of the show, while his status in the books might be considered undetermined, depending on whether or not the "Jojen Paste" theory pans out.

Other aspects of the twist are that it "involves three or four characters," and the show (supposedly) cannot do the twist; IMO, the latter implies that not only can the show not pull off the twist verbatim, but that they can't easily shift the twist to another character.

For example, any twist that involves Pyp could probably just be shifted to a different NW character, whereas characters like Stannis and Myrcella occupy more unique roles.

Quite. The character in question has to be unique in some way and as I said back at the beginning Robb Stark's wife falls into that category. The appearance of a "hidden" Stark heir by his lawfully wedded wife isn't a twist that can be shifted to someone else. The Mummer's show not only killed off their version of his wife but stabbed her in the belly just to make sure of anything that might be in there. In the book however Robb's wife is still alive and scheduled to appear in the WoW prologue where a twist may well be revealed.

Edited by Black Crow

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2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Quite. The character in question has to be unique in some way and as I said back at the beginning Robb Stark's wife falls into that character. The appearance of a "hidden" Stark heir by his lawfully wedded wife isn't a twist that can be shifted to someone else. The Mummer's version version not only killed off their version of his wife but stabbed her in the belly just to make sure of anything that might be in there. In the book however Robb's wife is still alive and scheduled to appear in the WoW prologue where a twist may well be revealed.

So much for the tansy tea or whatever potion her mother was brewing. I guess Jeyne could’ve been smart and dumped her cup in a chamber pot or out a window.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

So much for the tansy tea or whatever potion her mother was brewing. I guess Jeyne could’ve been smart and dumped her cup in a chamber pot or out a window.

Ah but my argument is that her mother was lying to Tywin on account of the fatal implication. A Stark heir would have scuppered his cunning plan to gain Winterfell by marrying Tyrion to Sansa. Telling Tywin that Jeyne was carrying Robb's child would have been a death sentence. 

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17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah but my argument is that her mother was lying to Tywin on account of the fatal implication. A Stark heir would have scuppered his cunning plan to gain Winterfell by marrying Tyrion to Sansa. Telling Tywin that Jeyne was carrying Robb's child would have been a death sentence. 

True, but I got the sense that her mother conspired with Tywin, and that is why she encouraged her daughter to care for Robb when he was injured.

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Jeyne Westerling and Aegon VI are not characters on the show and therefore not candidates. 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Jeyne Westerling and Aegon VI are not characters on the show and therefore not candidates. 

Robb's wife was and very much is

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39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Robb's wife was and very much is

I wonder why the show chose to make her someone else - doesn't make any sense.

And though he was never in the show, I guess Stonesnake will have a part to play :P

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42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Robb's wife was and very much is

It would need to be a twist that works for either wife but no one else, and I'm still not sure GRRM's quote makes sense in that case.

GRRM was clear that it was a twist he did not think of, so I am not sure pregnancy is applicable.  He very clearly thought about whether Jeyne could be pregnant writing about her medicine. 

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