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Black Crow

Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

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56 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Robb's wife was and very much is

Did Catelyn know that Jayne was pregnant?  The image of Stoneheart pondering the crown of winter comes to mind.

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On 3/13/2019 at 3:05 PM, Matthew. said:

Possibly, and I wouldn't want to put GRRM's extemporaneous comments on the twist under too much of a semantic lens, so Catelyn should be a consideration. In fact, the removal of Stoneheart is one of the changes that GRRM is most vocal about, saying it was a big point of contention with D&D--as recently as an interview with the Chinese edition of Esquire in 2017, he was characterizing it as the biggest change between the two stories.

No Stoneheart = No Nissa Nissa

Kinda unique that Stoneheart is the only functioning character in ASOIAF who's blood can set a sword aflame.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To use the Aegon VI example, if the author decided to introduce an Aegon VI twist, that wouldn't just be limited to Jon Connington chapters, it would bleed into Arianne chapters, Areo chapters, Cersei chapters, Brienne chapters and Jaime chapters at a minimum; if it happens late, it's possibly bleeding into Tyrion, Dany, and other Meereenese knot POVs.

Yes, this could be so, though it would really depend on the twist.

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Robb's wife was and very much is

The abstract concept of "Robb's wife" remains an abstract concept, as opposed to a character.

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Jeyne Westerling and Aegon VI are not characters on the show and therefore not candidates.

In this case, then when the Viper was shouting "You raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children" to the Mountain, surely the Mountain should have stopped and objected:

"Rhaegar didn't have a son, so you should say I murdered her child, because that's singular."

But he didn't...

So it seems Rhaegar's son Aegon definitely does exist as a character in Show World.  He's just never had any appearances because D&D killed him, as GRRM said, whereas GRRM has evidently not made that decision in the books (as a settled matter).

Edited by JNR

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Posted (edited)

Here’s a little curiosity about the TOJ that I recently realized, and have been discussing with the folks in another place.

I wonder what Heretics think.

The default RLJ story, as we all know, is basically this:

1. Ned buried the KG and his five dead companions at the TOJ in cairns. (We know this happened from his waking memory.)

2. Ned did not bury Lyanna, though she also died there.  Instead, he transported her remains to Winterfell. If so, then this means he unquestionably had a good option to prepare a corpse for travel from the TOJ, and he only chose to use it for Lyanna.

3. Ned’s next stop was Starfall, to return Dawn, the honorable thing to do… but he did not return Arthur’s remains.    

4. Ned eventually also proceeded to Barrowton to return Lord Dustin’s horse to Lady Dustin.  This was also clearly the honorable thing to do… but he did not return Lord Dustin’s remains. 

5. Finally, he proceeded to Winterfell to put Lyanna’s remains in the crypts.

Now… how is it possible that someone as honorable as Ned, who went to the trouble of returning both Dawn and this Dustin horse… did not have the eight bodies prepared for travel, as he did for Lyanna?

Was he that lazy?  Was he that cheap? Or was he that dishonorable? 

These are awkward questions to ask about Ned Stark, whose defining trait appears to be a profound dedication to personal honor.  (They are also questions Lady Dustin apparently asked herself, because she is exceedingly upset at Ned, as we see in ADWD, over this exact issue.)

Well, I think there’s another possibility: that there is no double standard in Ned's conduct, because Lyanna simply didn’t die at the TOJ.  

Ned buried the eight TOJ corpses because he had no way to prepare them for travel — there were no silent sisters conveniently riding by the Prince’s Pass at that time — and all those remains would only decompose horribly if he tried. So burial was his only option. He took it.

But he found Lyanna dying at a different place, slightly later… and that place, not being an isolated watchtower, was a place where her remains could in fact be prepared for travel by silent sisters. 

In fact, that place was Starfall.  And that’s why, as Ned's memory shows, her room smelled of roses.  A room will only smell of roses if the roses are fresh, and fresh roses would almost certainly be much easier to come by at Starfall than at the TOJ.

And if this is how it happened, it appears Ned did not choose to tell anyone where he found Lyanna... probably to shield House Dayne from awkward questions Robert might have asked.  Instead, he told people the RLJ version, in which he was too lazy or cheap or dishonorable to move the eight corpses anywhere. 

And if you want to know why House Dayne seems to think pretty favorably of Ned Stark, the above might have something to do with it.

Edited by JNR

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Yes, this could be so, though it would really depend on the twist.

The abstract concept of "Robb's wife" remains an abstract concept, as opposed to a character.

In this case, then when the Viper was shouting "You raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children" to the Mountain, surely the Mountain should have stopped and objected:

"Rhaegar didn't have a son, so you should say I murdered her child, because that's singular."

But he didn't...

So it seems Rhaegar's son Aegon definitely does exist as a character in Show World.  He's just never had any appearances because D&D killed him, as GRRM said, whereas GRRM has evidently not made that decision in the books (as a settled matter).

This is similar to Cat.  Aegon existed in both the show and books, and died.  Unlikely Cat, we don't know he physically died, but he died according to hearsay - the books and show are exactly the same on this.  Unlike the show, the books introduced a character claiming to be Ageon.  There is nothing to preclude the show from doing the same thing, so there is no reason him being dead on the show and not in the books could preclude him being used in the twist the same way.  It cannot be him.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Here’s a little curiosity about the TOJ that I recently realized, and have been discussing with the folks in another place.

I wonder what Heretics think.

The default RLJ story, as we all know, is basically this:

1. Ned buried the KG and his five dead companions at the TOJ in cairns. (We know this happened from his waking memory.)

2. Ned did not bury Lyanna, though she also died there.  Instead, he transported her remains to Winterfell. If so, then this means he unquestionably had a good option to prepare a corpse for travel from the TOJ, and he only chose to use it for Lyanna.

3. Ned’s next stop was Starfall, to return Dawn, the honorable thing to do… but he did not return Arthur’s remains.    

4. Ned eventually also proceeded to Barrowton to return Lord Dustin’s horse to Lady Dustin.  This was also clearly the honorable thing to do… but he did not return Lord Dustin’s remains. 

5. Finally, he proceeded to Winterfell to put Lyanna’s remains in the crypts.

Now… how is it possible that someone as honorable as Ned, who went to the trouble of returning both Dawn and this Dustin horse… did not have the eight bodies prepared for travel, as he did for Lyanna?

Was he that lazy?  Was he that cheap? Or was he that dishonorable? 

These are awkward questions to ask about Ned Stark, whose defining trait appears to be a profound dedication to personal honor.  (They are also questions Lady Dustin apparently asked herself, because she is exceedingly upset at Ned, as we see in ADWD, over this exact issue.)

Well, I think there’s another possibility: that there is no double standard in Ned's conduct, because Lyanna simply didn’t die at the TOJ.  

Ned buried the eight TOJ corpses because he had no way to prepare them for travel — there were no silent sisters conveniently riding by the Prince’s Pass at that time — and all those remains would only decompose horribly if he tried. So burial was his only option. He took it.

But he found Lyanna dying at a different place, slightly later… and that place, not being an isolated watchtower, was a place where her remains could in fact be prepared for travel by silent sisters. 

In fact, that place was Starfall.  And that’s why, as Ned's memory shows, her room smelled of roses.  A room will only smell of roses if the roses are fresh, and fresh roses would almost certainly be much easier to come by at Starfall than at the TOJ.

And if this is how it happened, it appears Ned did not choose to tell anyone where he found Lyanna... probably to shield House Dayne from awkward questions Robert might have asked.  Instead, he told people the RLJ version, in which he was too lazy or cheap or dishonorable to move the eight corpses anywhere. 

And if you want to know why House Dayne seems to think pretty favorably of Ned Stark, the above might have something to do with it.

I made good friends at this other place years ago because I claimed it doesn't make sense for Ned and Howland to ride into Starfall with a rotting corpse, a baby and Dawn and nobody remembers it ("someone always tells").

Your suggestion makes more sense.

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@JNR I do think Aegon is possible true born but the show never cared about Elia or her children so I don't know if they will include him for a late twist especially when they combined his character with Jon's - though I heard Golden Company will make an appearance in Season 8 and they are led by a blonde man? Is it possibly Lysono Maar or actually Aegon? 

@Feather Crystal I kinda dislike the idea of Stannis dying at the hands of Brienne for her childish love for D*ckly Baratheon but Brienne and Lady Stoneheart will be important imo along with Riverlands 

@Matthew. Thank you for the list! I believe Shireen already died along with Jon but I can see Myrcella, Stannis and Nance Rayder being involved in twists - Xaro Xhoan Daxos could be exposed being a Qartheen assassin but I can't see another surprise when it comes to him 

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4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@JNR I do think Aegon is possible true born but the show never cared about Elia or her children so I don't know if they will include him for a late twist especially when they combined his character with Jon's - though I heard Golden Company will make an appearance in Season 8 and they are led by a blonde man? Is it possibly Lysono Maar or actually Aegon? 

The show combines the two, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lysono claimed to be Aegon VI.   He has an interesting sword in the trailer some speculate is Blackfyre. 

I bet Blackfyre becomes relevant in the books and that the Golden Company would have it.  Having this sword would almost certainly prove he's a Blackfire. 

Lysono claims he's only seen 1 male Targaryen, which is strange.  How many females do you think he's seen?  My guess is his mother was a Blackfyre. 

 

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Feather CrystalthisCrystal

 

this editor is horrible! 

 

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10 hours ago, JNR said:

And if this is how it happened, it appears Ned did not choose to tell anyone where he found Lyanna... probably to shield House Dayne from awkward questions Robert might have asked.  Instead, he told people the RLJ version, in which he was too lazy or cheap or dishonorable to move the eight corpses anywhere. 

And if you want to know why House Dayne seems to think pretty favorably of Ned Stark, the above might have something to do with it.

So I don't think RLJ but this does make more sense than what is typically proposed. 

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10 hours ago, JNR said:

1. Ned buried the KG and his five dead companions at the TOJ in cairns. (We know this happened from his waking memory.)

He could have been thinking metaphorically. Building cairns could be interpreted as causing the deaths of his men. And if he did actually build cairns on a ridge, he doesn't actually think during waking hours where that ridge is.

11 hours ago, JNR said:

2. Ned did not bury Lyanna, though she also died there.  Instead, he transported her remains to Winterfell. If so, then this means he unquestionably had a good option to prepare a corpse for travel from the TOJ, and he only chose to use it for Lyanna.

Only Ned's bones were prepared for the journey back home, so it seems logical that the same would be done for Lyanna. There is some imagery to suggest that her bones were backed in salt in a barrel - "pickled", like how Tyrion got drunk in his barrel, and "pickled" like Craster's kippers - the red herring.

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

3. Ned’s next stop was Starfall, to return Dawn, the honorable thing to do… but he did not return Arthur’s remains. 

I'm thinking it's not customary to return everyone's remains back home. It might be quite expensive, and why should Ned be responsible for all those dead bodies?

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

5. Finally, he proceeded to Winterfell to put Lyanna’s remains in the crypts.

I doubt Ned accompanied Lyanna's bones home, unless he retrieved them on the return trip from Starfall.

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

Well, I think there’s another possibility: that there is no double standard in Ned's conduct, because Lyanna simply didn’t die at the TOJ.  

Ned buried the eight TOJ corpses because he had no way to prepare them for travel — there were no silent sisters conveniently riding by the Prince’s Pass at that time — and all those remains would only decompose horribly if he tried. So burial was his only option. He took it.

But he found Lyanna dying at a different place, slightly later… and that place, not being an isolated watchtower, was a place where her remains could in fact be prepared for travel by silent sisters. 

In fact, that place was Starfall.  And that’s why, as Ned's memory shows, her room smelled of roses.  A room will only smell of roses if the roses are fresh, and fresh roses would almost certainly be much easier to come by at Starfall than at the TOJ.

IMO the blue and black roses were never real. I think they were always symbolic or metaphors for death. Even the laurel that Rhaegar placed in her lap - I doubt they were even blue. I think Ned remembers them this way, because of what happened afterward. The same goes for the thorns hidden under the crown. It's all in retrospect. 

Again, IMO Lyanna was found in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast - the real tower of joy.

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59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

He could have been thinking metaphorically. Building cairns could be interpreted as causing the deaths of his men. And if he did actually build cairns on a ridge, he doesn't actually think during waking hours where that ridge is.

Only Ned's bones were prepared for the journey back home, so it seems logical that the same would be done for Lyanna. There is some imagery to suggest that her bones were backed in salt in a barrel - "pickled", like how Tyrion got drunk in his barrel, and "pickled" like Craster's kippers - the red herring.

I'm thinking it's not customary to return everyone's remains back home. It might be quite expensive, and why should Ned be responsible for all those dead bodies?

I doubt Ned accompanied Lyanna's bones home, unless he retrieved them on the return trip from Starfall.

IMO the blue and black roses were never real. I think they were always symbolic or metaphors for death. Even the laurel that Rhaegar placed in her lap - I doubt they were even blue. I think Ned remembers them this way, because of what happened afterward. The same goes for the thorns hidden under the crown. It's all in retrospect. 

Again, IMO Lyanna was found in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast - the real tower of joy.

I guess you mixed me up in the quotes but in general I agree with JNR.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I guess you mixed me up in the quotes but in general I agree with JNR.

I think the forum has a bug. It's been doing some weird things this morning.

It's cool if you agree with JNR. Makes no difference to me. I just enjoy the debate! If Winds ever comes out I'll either get to say "I told you so" or I'll have to eat crow! HAR!

Edited by Feather Crystal

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10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the forum has a bug. It's been doing some weird things this morning.

It's cool if you agree with JNR. Makes no difference to me. I just enjoy the debate! If Winds ever comes out I'll either get to say "I told you so" or I'll have to eat crow! HAR!

That is part of the fun in heresy, isn't it? As long as Winds isn't out we're all safe :)

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm thinking it's not customary to return everyone's remains back home. It might be quite expensive, and why should Ned be responsible for all those dead bodies?

Yes, I'm not really sure what the traditional expectations here would be either, though clearly Lady Dustin was mad; with Lyanna, there's the additional layer that, according to Eddard, Lyanna had asked to be brought home to "rest beside Brandon and Father," a comment that is immediately followed by one of the internal repetitions of "promise me."

While I happen to agree with other posters broader premise that Starfall seems a more sensible place for Lyanna to have died, I don't think that the way Eddard handled the dead here seems noteworthy. Sure, as an adult and a lord he has a particular reputation for honor, but the context here is that he's a young man who has recently lost his father, his brother, had a falling out with Robert, has possibly lost (or is losing) his sister, and may have had certain heavy burdens placed upon him by whatever he promised Lyanna--it doesn't seem particularly odd that, in that state of mind, he may not have been sufficiently thoughtful toward the grief of others, such as Lady Dustin.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, I'm not really sure what the traditional expectations here would be either, though clearly Lady Dustin was mad; with Lyanna, there's the additional layer that, according to Eddard, Lyanna had asked to be brought home to "rest beside Brandon and Father," a comment that is immediately followed by one of the internal repetitions of "promise me."

While I happen to agree with other posters broader premise that Starfall seems a more sensible place for Lyanna to have died, I don't think that the way Eddard handled the dead here seems noteworthy. Sure, as an adult and a lord he has a particular reputation for honor, but the context here is that he's a young man who has recently lost his father, his brother, had a falling out with Robert, has possibly lost (or is losing) his sister, and may have had certain heavy burdens placed upon him by whatever he promised Lyanna--it doesn't seem particularly odd that, in that state of mind, he may not have been sufficiently thoughtful toward the grief of others, such as Lady Dustin.

Agree in general, but why did he return the red stallion then?

I guess that is odd for Lady Dustin, returning the horse but not the bones, while bringing home Lyanna's bones. On the other hand, Ned didn't return Arthur Dayne's corpse but only his sword.

Either we have an unwritten rule to bury warriors were they fell, that Lady Dustin isn't aware of, or Ned chose to bury his fallen friends and the three KG in the same place because it was an epic fight.

This could tie in with "where are Ned's bones"? Maybe he had a last order given to Howland Reed a long time ago that his bones should be buried at the ToJ as well?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Agree in general, but why did he return the red stallion then?

Because it's alive and would be easy to bring along.

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Ned didn't return Arthur Dayne's corpse but only his sword.

While Arthur's sword would be easy to carry, I think the assumed location of the tower of joy in relationship to the relatively short distance to Starfall could be evidence that Arthur died much farther away from home than somewhere in the Prince's Pass. If you have The Lands of Ice and Fire, take out the map and look at the assumed location of the tower of joy and then at Starfall. The two places are quite close together - maybe even less than a day's ride apart. If Arthur died so close to home, why not bring his body along with the sword?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The show combines the two, so I wouldn't be surprised if Lysono claimed to be Aegon VI.  

Why would Varys then run to Dany in the show ?

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I don't think we've seen enough of either show Varys or book Varys to know his true motivations or loyalties or how easily they change. 

And in show world, the Golden Company isn't necessarily Dany's enemy.  So much has been made about them never breaking a contract, I have to believe they will break one at some point. 

 

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Because it's alive and would be easy to bring along.

While Arthur's sword would be easy to carry, I think the assumed location of the tower of joy in relationship to the relatively short distance to Starfall could be evidence that Arthur died much farther away from home than somewhere in the Prince's Pass. If you have The Lands of Ice and Fire, take out the map and look at the assumed location of the tower of joy and then at Starfall. The two places are quite close together - maybe even less than a day's ride apart. If Arthur died so close to home, why not bring his body along with the sword?

I think we might have stumbled upon something. Assuming Ned (and Howland Reed?) rode to Starfall right after the fight at the ToJ, and they carried baby Jon, Lyanna's corpse, Dawn and the red stallion, why weren't they bringing home Arthur Dayne's body as well? Wouldn't it have been seen as an affront to the Daynes to return his sword but not his body? Or even raise suspicions - the Daynes might question Arthur died in a fair fight but got maybe shot with an arrow from a distance - who would be able to defeat Arthur Dayne?

Options:

- the fight at the ToJ happened earlier

- the three KG did not die at the ToJ

- Lyanna was not there and did not die at the ToJ

- the bodies of the three KG and Ned's friends could not be shown because  …? ("If it weren't for Howland Reed …")

- ...

I'm tempted to ask this to my friends in the other thread :P

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