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boltons are sick

Did Cersei really kill the twins and sell their mother into slavery?

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I was rereading aGoT and I stumbled upon this part where LF informs Ned that Cersei had killed 2 of Robert`s children and sold their mother into slavery because Robert slept with her when he was in Casterly Rock. However, the more I think about it, the more I am starting to realize that it was actually Tywin who did the deed. He was pissed off because Robert was cheating on his daughter. Let me explain why I think so. Firstly, I don`t believe that the queen has the power to do this in Casterly Rock. Tywin is the ruler of CR after all. He is the one giving orders. Secondly, Robert has over 16 children but only the ones in CR (where Tywin rules) were killed. Isn`t that a bit suspicious? If Cersei really killed those 2 boys, then why didn`t she also kill the other 14. I am sure that some of you will bring up as an argument that she killed those 2 bastards in aCoK but she did it only after her secret was threatened to be exposed and not out of malice. Their murder was for political reasons and she could have done it a lot earlier. Thirdly, LF is not the most trustworthy source. If you remember, he later tells Sansa that Tyrion had given Tysha to his guards for a gang rape which we all know is a lie. In aGoT, LF`s goal was to bring Ned`s attention to Robert`s bastards and to make him suspicious of Cersei. And LF tells that he had heard "rumors". So, what do you think? Did Cersei do it, did Tywin do it or did LF simply make this whole story up?

I`d like to point out that I am not a "Cersei apologist" and I am not trying to vilify Tywin (who is a real badass). I am just trying to express my opinion and to make an interesting discussion.

Edited by boltons are sick

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As you say, Baelish isn't the most reliable source.

Tywin is perfectly able to get children murdered, but only if there is a profit. He wouldn't kill two child becouse he is feeling despised. Cersei is also interested in supressing any proof about Jeoffrey and the rest being bastards. AFAIK, Tywin doesn't suspects nothing about the incest and when he read Stannis's letter, he was offended (he is their father, after all).

 

Cersei couldn't start a killing spree without gaining attention. It could be suspicious if all Robert's bastards die the same year. She is powerful enough to do it in King's Landing or Lannisport, but not everywhere (for example she only killed little Barra after Robert's death).

Also there is a simplier reason. The witch augured 14 bastards, yeah, but didn't any mother's name. Cersei doesn't has a list. For example almost nobody thinks Bella the whore is Robert's bastard. And probably some married women believed her boys/girls are her husband's children, not from any daliance with the King.

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On 3/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, the Last Teague said:

As you say, Baelish isn't the most reliable source.

Tywin is perfectly able to get children murdered, but only if there is a profit. He wouldn't kill two child becouse he is feeling despised. Cersei is also interested in supressing any proof about Jeoffrey and the rest being bastards. AFAIK, Tywin doesn't suspects nothing about the incest and when he read Stannis's letter, he was offended (he is their father, after all).

 

Cersei couldn't start a killing spree without gaining attention. It could be suspicious if all Robert's bastards die the same year. She is powerful enough to do it in King's Landing or Lannisport, but not everywhere (for example she only killed little Barra after Robert's death).

Also there is a simplier reason. The witch augured 14 bastards, yeah, but didn't any mother's name. Cersei doesn't has a list. For example almost nobody thinks Bella the whore is Robert's bastard. And probably some married women believed her boys/girls are her husband's children, not from any daliance with the King.

Yes, but Tywin could have felt offended by Robert cheating on his daughter. Also, tywin claims that he does all his evil deeds for the good of the house but there are many instances where he does evil things out of spite (the gang rape of Tysha, the Walk of Shame of Tytos` mistress). And I don`t think that at this point Cersei was afraid of exposure at the slightest.

 

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Tywin is evil, but not in the spiteful way Cersei is. He doesn't accept the incest (any father would), so the bastards are undeserving any attention by him. He never made any reference to Edric Storm, Mia Stone or any other. Baseborn bastards are no danger, and he doesn't kill for pleasure. His only reaction to Stannis' letter is forcing Cersei to marry again. He is smart enough to know that a killing spree could draw attention.

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On 3/25/2019 at 12:42 PM, the Last Teague said:

Tywin is evil, but not in the spiteful way Cersei is. He doesn't accept the incest (any father would), so the bastards are undeserving any attention by him. He never made any reference to Edric Storm, Mia Stone or any other. Baseborn bastards are no danger, and he doesn't kill for pleasure. His only reaction to Stannis' letter is forcing Cersei to marry again. He is smart enough to know that a killing spree could draw attention.

My point was that he was angry that Robert cheated on his daughter and decided to punish the whore that Robert slept with and her children. And I don`t know where people get this idea that Tywin is not spiteful and only pragmatic - he organized the gang rape of a 13-year old child because he was pissed that she had married Tyrion, he paraded Tytos` mistress through the streets of LP because he was pissed that she had influence over his father, he killed every last peasant  and servant of the Reynes only because he was pissed at them, he sent Gregor Clegane against the Riverlands because he was pissed that Catelyn had kidnapped his son (he could have just written a letter to Robert), he killed Elia and her kids because he was pissed that Rhaeger didn`t marry his daughter, he treated Tyrion like crap because he was angry that he had 'killed' Joahanna, he pillaged King`s Landing for no reason at all, he tortured a singer to death only because he was pissed at something that the singer had said, he killed Masha Heddle and all the inhabitants of her village because he was pissed that they didn`t do anything to prevent the arrest of Tyrion... Tywin has positive traits, too, but he is a pretty spiteful person, in my opinion.

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If the twins were killed, then I don't think Tywin did it, I think it was Cersie.  What would it gain Tywin, it's not like Robert would know, or even care. 

I think it was Cersie, and she did it for 2 reasons, 1) to have these kids grow up at CR would be adding insult to injury, these are her family's subjects and she could stand the thought of the rumors and snickering behind her back whenever these kids walked through the street.  2) it would be easy to get someone to do it and hide it.  News or rumors of this would not reach KL and Robert

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On 3/10/2019 at 3:34 AM, boltons are sick said:

If Cersei really killed those 2 boys, then why didn`t she also kill the other 14.

Because she doesn't know who they all are, obviously. She kills that baby in the brothel only after Ned exposed it. She may know about Edric Storm but he was in Storm's End and under protection. If she knows of a Baratheon bastard, she kills them.

On 3/10/2019 at 3:34 AM, boltons are sick said:

but she did it only after her secret was threatened to be exposed and not out of malice.

Yes, she does it out of malice. At this point it's not even about protecting her children's claims, it's just out of spite and hatred. She had no reason to order the baby in KL dead, considering it was a girl and didn't have a claim anyway. 

On 3/10/2019 at 3:34 AM, boltons are sick said:

Thirdly, LF is not the most trustworthy source.

Yes, but he had no reason to lie about the incident at CR. 

On 3/10/2019 at 3:34 AM, boltons are sick said:

LF`s goal was to bring Ned`s attention to Robert`s bastards and to make him suspicious of Cersei.

Ned already knew about Robert's many bastards. Besides, he was suspicious of Cersei already for other reasons. 

On 3/10/2019 at 3:34 AM, boltons are sick said:

Did Cersei do it, did Tywin do it or did LF simply make this whole story up?

LF has no reason to make it up. It was obviously Cersei, and Tywin may have been aware of the incident. He wouldn't care much anyway, considering he's even worse than Cersei. 

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Cersei is ruthless enough and petty enough to have two babies killed and their mother dispatched. LF has no reason to lie and it sets the stage for the ruthless murder of Barra.

The only reason there isn't more damage done to Robert's bastards is that she doesn't know who they are. Barra she knows about because of Ned and we don't know how she found out about Gendry. Those are two. She knows about Mya Stone, but she's far off in Vale and we know from Cersei POV that she threatens her when Robert suggested he'd bring her to court.

And she for sure knows about Edric Storm, but he's out of her reach. 

The other bastards, she is as in the dark about who and where they are as the reader is. Bella is a chance encounter in the riverlands and that's 5 out of 16, seven if we count the twins from the westerlands. 

What does Tywin care? His grandson as far as he knew was the legitimate heir and the bastards will never be a threat. Robert barely cared about the trueborn children he thought he had, barely cared about Edric and Mya and his reaction to finding out about Barra is pretty cold. Robert wanted to have sex and didn't care about the consequences. He doesn't even remember the names of the women he slept with, judging by his exchange with Ned when they were traveling through the barrowlands.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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I think both Cersei and Tywin are capable of such horrible deeds. I absolutely agree that Tywin had no reason to consider any of Robert's baseborn bastards a threat, but precisely because they were baseborn and his servants, he wouldn't have qualms about having them killed either - if he thought it would be inconvenient to have them around in CR. (There could be some psychology behind this if he had tormenting suspicions about Tyrion's parentage - he wouldn't want to tolerate the presence of a king's bastards in his castle.) Then he would have to get rid of the mother to avoid the inconvenience of having a crying, problematic servant in the house. Besides that, Tywin had a tendency to mete out  severe punishments whenever a woman "overreached" her status at the expense of Lannister pride and interests.   

However, Littlefinger says it was Cersei, and there is nothing unbelievable about his story. (I think she was perfectly able to arrange these things in CR behind Tywin's back, and Tywin probably didn't make a fuss about it afterwards provided the deed had been done with the necessary discretion.) Nor is there anything that contradicts LF's story in the books. Oh, yes, Littlefinger has a tendency to lie, but can we say that he always lies? Wouldn't he tell a true story now and then if it suited his goals? This story - true or not - was the "best" kind of story to tell Ned. We know about Ned's strong reaction to killing children (any children, even Lannister ones), and at the time he was starting to develop quasi-paternal feelings for Robert's abandoned bastards. We also know that he abhors the practice of slavery. 

By the way, while I don't know what Westerosi law or tradition might say about the murder of servants' children by the nobility, selling a person to slavery is definitely against the law (or the closest thing to it that the 7K has). One can't help wondering if it was a single occasion or happened to other servants in the Lannister / royal household as well.  

 

 

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the story of Robert's twins has never been confirmed, even in Cersei's POV chapters. 

If so it's possible that Littlefinger made the whole story up. At this point in the story he is actively trying to cause conflict between the Lannisters and Starks. He has Lysa poison Jon Arryn and tells her to blame the Lannisters. Then he tells Catelyn that the dagger used in the attempted murder of Bran was Tyrion's. He also helps Ned uncover the truth about Jaime and Cersei by taking him to the brothel with Barra and her mother. The idea of Cersei killing children and selling a woman into slavery, which incidentally is why he wants to execute Jorah Mormont, will just further turn Ned against the queen. 

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