Jump to content
Arthur Peres

How much loyalty or influence does Mace Tyrell hold over his vassal lords?

Recommended Posts

The Tyrells like the Tullys were rewarded and eleveted to their position by the Targeryans Olenna herself tells us that the Tyrells claim over Highgarden Always has been shaky.

 

During the dance of the dragons the Reach was Split between the factions, during the first blackfyre rebellion the reach once again was split, as most of Daemon Support came from there. 

But during Robert Rebellion, for all we know they were a united force, behind Mace, this does not happen to the Tullys who had to fight rebbel vassals, Jon Arryn and Robert also had to fight their own vassal.

Once again when Renly crowed himself, the reach once again came united. But once Renly died we have several lords changing sides to Stannis like Mullendore, Fossoway, and Florents.

Laswell Peake also tell us that the Golden company still has many friends in the reach.

So how much power does Mace actually holds of his vassals, compared to other lords ? Who are those friends Laswell speaks of ? Is Mace really a oaf lord like Cersei paints him or is he a capable lord that putted his family as the most powerfull faction ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

The Tyrells run a prosperous territory.  It's easy to have loyalty during the time of plenty.  

And that's why I think things are going to take a hard left turn for the Tyrells in Winds.

The Reach is going to get raped by the Ironborn and the Tyrells aren't going to be able to help and protect their own people because they are too busy trying to solve the Aegon problem and the Faith Militant problem. And then there's Cersei who finds a way to destroy everything she gets her hands on.

Yeah, this book is going to be called The Winds of Winter and that's typically the time of year when roses die.

Olenna Tyrell is going to be the last (wo)man standing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Major source of power for Tyrells has been marriages between houses Tyrell, Redwynes and Hightowers. Or alliance of High Garden, Arbor and Old Town. That coalition had been stronger than any possible alliance between other houses of Reach. But now all those powerhouses has IB problem, so it is possible that some of houses that had not been happy about their own situation will try to remove those upjumped stewards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Is Mace really a oaf lord like Cersei paints him or is he a capable lord that putted his family as the most powerfull faction ?

I wouldn't say he's the smartest lord but I would say he's definitely competent and capable. I think more than anything he's gotten a little bit pompous with age based on them arguably being the most comfortable region in Westeros.

They don't have to deal with harsh conditions like the North, or the same level of heat as Dorne, and they aren't overpopulated like Kings Landing (not a region I know). Their climate makes it ideal for growing crops and resources which is its own currency during war time. He's essentially grown into a bit of a pompous, proud man based on these conditions and having a bunch of pretty capable kids. Even the one that's crippled is still pretty smart and level headed.

I would say if anything, he's probably just being undermined slightly by Olenne at times, which doesn't help his reputation/image either.

Edited by Mat92

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

s Mace really a oaf lord like Cersei paints him or is he a capable lord that putted his family as the most powerfull faction ?

I dont think hes that much of an oaf or pufffish like hes painted by Cersei or Olenna.

16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

The Tyrells like the Tullys were rewarded and eleveted to their position by the Targeryans Olenna herself tells us that the Tyrells claim over Highgarden Always has been shaky.

He knows that the Tyrells lack of something: But ist not being not a king ist not having a great legacy. All this other Major houses have People like Lann the clever or Brandon the Builder.

 

16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

like the Tullys

The Tullys also dont have this but there are two major differnce between the Reach and the Riverlands: The Tullys dont follow one, great legacy and they are not surrounded by great legacies.

16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

During the dance of the dragons the Reach was Split between the factions, during the first blackfyre rebellion the reach once again was split, as most of Daemon Support came from there. 

 

16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Once again when Renly crowed himself, the reach once again came united. But once Renly died we have several lords changing sides to Stannis like Mullendore, Fossoway, and Florents.

I think that These houses are or were not  particulary against Stewards as Lord paramounts they are / were against everybody save for themselves.

16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

So how much power does Mace actually holds of his vassals, compared to other lords ?

As Long as he rewards them good, he can Keep them in line

Edited by Karneol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

And that's why I think things are going to take a hard left turn for the Tyrells in Winds.

The Reach is going to get raped by the Ironborn and the Tyrells aren't going to be able to help and protect their own people because they are too busy trying to solve the Aegon problem and the Faith Militant problem. And then there's Cersei who finds a way to destroy everything she gets her hands on.

Yeah, this book is going to be called The Winds of Winter and that's typically the time of year when roses die.

Olenna Tyrell is going to be the last (wo)man standing.

Willas and Garlan are already taking steps to deal with the Ironborn though. Those steps might fail and the Tyrell’s May subsequently fall, but I don’t think it will be as a result of disloyalty from their bannermen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Willas and Garlan are already taking steps to deal with the Ironborn though. Those steps might fail and the Tyrell’s May subsequently fall, but I don’t think it will be as a result of disloyalty from their bannermen

I think Randyll Tarly is going to ditch the Tyrells for Aegon. And Aegon will make him the new Warden of the South. The Florents have already broken flock, the Hightowers have their own problems and I think the Merryweathers, the Rowans and the Fossoways will follow the example of the Tarlys. Essentially, I think the royal ambitions of the Tyrells (mainly Mace) and their alliance with the Lannisters will cost them dearly. As it should because the clear message that the Reachmen are going to be receiving is that House Tyrell cannot protect them.

The Starks are ancient with a millennium of strength, loyalty and goodwill on their side. And even though there are plenty of people in the North still rooting for them, look at how divided, paralyzed and chaotic the North is now. Retaking their rightful place will not be easy. The Tyrells don't even have a fraction of what the Starks had.

I think Lady Olenna said sometimes along the lines that her husband rode a horse off a cliff and now son is doing the same, trading a horse in for a lion.

My prediction is that Willas and Loras will be the only other Tyrell outside of Lady Olenna that will survive The Winds of Winter but Loras will be on Dragonstone recovering and Willas and Olenna will be in Highgarden.

I see first Loras and then Willas dying relatively early on in A Dream of Spring. If Lady Olenna makes past their deaths, I think she can make it all the way to the bitter end.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Karneol said:

As Long as he rewards them good, he can Keep them in line

But does he? Mace took the lands from the Florents and gave it to his son Garlan instead of Tarly's wife that has a claim to it, Mace also takes credit for the battle that he wasn't even present at Ashford.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

But does he? Mace took the lands from the Florents and gave it to his son Garlan instead of Tarly's wife that has a claim to it, Mace also takes credit for the battle that he wasn't even present at Ashford.

Brightwater Keep is such a poisoned gift. Alekyne is still alive and has taken refuge at the Hightower with his sister who so happens to be married to Garlan's grandfather.  

The really interesting thing about Randyll Tarly is that Margaery and her cousins are in his custody until their trial. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think Randyll Tarly is going to ditch the Tyrells for Aegon. And Aegon will make him the new Warden of the South. The Florents have already broken flock, the Hightowers have their own problems and I think the Merryweathers, the Rowans and the Fossoways will follow the example of the Tarlys. Essentially, I think the royal ambitions of the Tyrells (mainly Mace) and their alliance with the Lannisters will cost them dearly. As it should because the clear message that the Reachmen are going to be receiving is that House Tyrell cannot protect them.

 

The problem I have with this is that Randyll is so far the most loyal bannermen of the Tyrells.

He stayed at their side when Renly died, he was the one that killed the men willing to follow Stannis at the camp, he is present at blackwater, he follows his orders against the northems at duskdale, he keeps the order at maidenpool and he is the first to return when he hears that Margeary is in trouble. Randyll also quickly demises young griffin as the real Aegon.

I think Mathis Rowan is more of a turn cloak than Tarly, as he shows being upset about the death of Rhaegar's children, and could be deceived to join Aegon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Brightwater Keep is such a poisoned gift. Alekyne is still alive and has taken refuge at the Hightower with his sister who so happens to be married to Garlan's grandfather.  

 

I had forgotten about this.

Do you think the Hightowers will turn him or give him protection? Wyllis kind already let them deal with the Ironbonr by themselfs, and thanks to Cersei's the Tyrells are failling to protect the harbor and the shild islands.

House Hightower was in opposite side of the Tyrells during the dance, and were present at both camps during the blackfyre rebellion, could they turn on their liege like the Boltons did ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He stayed at their side when Renly died, he was the one that killed the men willing to follow Stannis at the camp, he is present at blackwater, he follows his orders against the northems at duskdale, he keeps the order at maidenpool and he is the first to return when he hears that Margeary is in trouble. Randyll also quickly demises young griffin as the real Aego

What about Randyll being a second Lyn Cobray? He is close to the Tyrells, plays the loyal commander, knows probably a lot of their secrets and plots and most important keeps them too busy to actually bother with their bannermans rebellion.

Edited by Karneol
Grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Do you think the Hightowers will turn him or give him protection? Wyllis kind already let them deal with the Ironbonr by themselfs, and thanks to Cersei's the Tyrells are failling to protect the harbor and the shild islands.

I think the Hightowers are going to give him protection. He ate their salt and bread, which means he has guest right.

If they were not intent on this, then I don't think they would have opened their doors to him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think Randyll Tarly is going to ditch the Tyrells for Aegon. And Aegon will make him the new Warden of the South. The Florents have already broken flock, the Hightowers have their own problems and I think the Merryweathers, the Rowans and the Fossoways will follow the example of the Tarlys. Essentially, I think the royal ambitions of the Tyrells (mainly Mace) and their alliance with the Lannisters will cost them dearly. As it should because the clear message that the Reachmen are going to be receiving is that House Tyrell cannot protect them.

The Starks are ancient with a millennium of strength, loyalty and goodwill on their side. And even though there are plenty of people in the North still rooting for them, look at how divided, paralyzed and chaotic the North is now. Retaking their rightful place will not be easy. The Tyrells don't even have a fraction of what the Starks had.

I think Lady Olenna said sometimes along the lines that her husband rode a horse off a cliff and now son is doing the same, trading a horse in for a lion.

My prediction is that Willas and Loras will be the only other Tyrell outside of Lady Olenna that will survive The Winds of Winter but Loras will be on Dragonstone recovering and Willas and Olenna will be in Highgarden.

I see first Loras and then Willas dying relatively early on in A Dream of Spring. If Lady Olenna makes past their deaths, I think she can make it all the way to the bitter end.

Of Course, the biggest problem with this argument is that Mace is married to a Hightower and the Lord of the Hightower is the maternal grandfather to Lord Mace's children. 

Lord Fossoway(Green) is married to Mace's sister. Garlan is also married to a Fossoway, not sure from which branch. Mace is half Redwyne and his sister is married to their lord and has 3 children including his heir. 
A Redwyne(possibly Olenna's niece) is married to lord Rowan as well. 

 

So the Tyrells should have the backing of the biggest army and biggest fleet in the Reach.

If the Tyrells actually get usurped, it honestly wouldnt make sense. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Mace is half Redwyne and his sister is married to their lord and has 3 children including his heir. 

It would be a pity if the mainbranch of the Tyrells got backstabbed and are now dead. Now nobody can defend the reach from the ironborn and who sits now in Highgarden. Wait, the Redwynes can trow the ib out and are also very close relevants to the tyrells, who could be a better Lord Paramount?

Blood relationship and armies could be use for or against you. Feeling Jealousy or Neglection lead generally to the latter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

But does he? Mace took the lands from the Florents and gave it to his son Garlan instead of Tarly's wife that has a claim to it, Mace also takes credit for the battle that he wasn't even present at Ashford.

Mace never takes credit for Ashford...... 

Also litterally every lord in Westeros knows Randyll Tarly was in command of the VAN that defeated Robert. Also in Mace defense he chose Randyll to lead the Van instead of numerous lords he could have chose from or himself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Mace never takes credit for Ashford...... 

Also litterally every lord in Westeros knows Randyll Tarly was in command of the VAN that defeated Robert. Also in Mace defense he chose Randyll to lead the Van instead of numerous lords he could have chose from or himself. 

We hear of Mace taking the cred from Stannis.

I can't find Mace personally taking the credit in the text.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Sam felt his face turning red. "No, my lady. Your Grace. I mean, I am, yes. I'm Samwell Tarly, yes."

"Your father is an able soldier," King Stannis said. "He defeated my brother once, at Ashford. Mace Tyrell has been pleased to claim the honors for that victory, but Lord Randyll had decided matters before Tyrell ever found the battlefield. He slew Lord Cafferen with that great Valyrian sword of his and sent his head to Aerys." The king rubbed his jaw with a finger. "You are not the sort of son I would expect such a man to have."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

We hear of Mace taking the cred from Stannis.

I can't find Mace personally taking the credit in the text.

 

Yes I do remember Stannis claiming Mace took the credit but Mace himself never claims such a thing and every noble who mentions RR or the battle of Ashford ALWAYS gives lord Tarly his credit and not Mace. 

Only thing Mace is known for is holding SE under siege and being kind of an idiot. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×