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anjulibai

Robert and Maester Aemon

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5 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

In theory, I agree, but in practice? Vows may not come into conflict, but actions and agendas might. What if your LC orders you to do something that violates your oath to the Citadel? What if an unscrupulous archmaester wants you to spy on your LC? Vows are good to keep honest people in line, but as we've seen, some individuals will not adhere to their principles when it suits them.

Septons would seem to fall into the same conundrum. Where does their ultimate loyalty lie? If the High Sparrow ordered Septon Cellador back to KL because he decided that the NW was corrupt and irredeemable and deserved to wither and die, would Cellador be obliged to obey, sight his NW vows as a shield to disobey, or have to make a real moral choice where his loyalties lie and suffer the consequences?

This is the same issue that Jaime brings up when weighing his knight's vows vs. his kingsguard vows "No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another." Conflicting vows seems to be an occupational hazard in Westeros.

The Nights Watch vows, however, come with a death penalty. Leave the order and your life is forfeit. Neither the Citadel nor the Faith seem to have this requirement, although it isn't clear whether or not a master or a septon/septa would still have a claim on lands/titles if they were drummed out or left voluntarily. I think this is why Randyll Tarly chose the NW for Sam, as it is about the surest way to remove him from the line of succession to House Tarly short of death. With both the Faith and the Citadel, there is still a chance, however remote, that Sam could come back and make a rival claim to Horn Hill.

 

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He's a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and has sworn to defend the Wall and protect the kingdom.  Whether Robert was aware he was there or not, he has no reason to mess with him as he is in no way a threat to his Kingship and no matter Aemon's feelings towards the king, he knows well enough that he can not interfere with problems within the realm(especially at his advanced age and eyesight).

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is the same issue that Jaime brings up when weighing his knight's vows vs. his kingsguard vows "No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another." Conflicting vows seems to be an occupational hazard in Westeros.

The Nights Watch vows, however, come with a death penalty. Leave the order and your life is forfeit. Neither the Citadel nor the Faith seem to have this requirement, although it isn't clear whether or not a master or a septon/septa would still have a claim on lands/titles if they were drummed out or left voluntarily. I think this is why Randyll Tarly chose the NW for Sam, as it is about the surest way to remove him from the line of succession to House Tarly short of death. With both the Faith and the Citadel, there is still a chance, however remote, that Sam could come back and make a rival claim to Horn Hill.

 

 

Exactly. Barristan is dismissed of his vows and his duty in the KG, even against his express wishes. Qyburn is stripped of his chain and vow of servitude by the Citadel for unnatural experimentation and practices. Cressen, however, is dismissed by Stannis due to age an infirmity (before he manages to kill himself) with no shame to his service or the Citadel.

So, how can Jon justify sending Aemon off for no particular reason (known to the majority of the NW), leaving the Watch maesterless (ostensibly for years) since Sam is going with him? If Aemon is a sworn brother, he can't leave. Unless you want to count this infraction among the things that got Jon assassinated?

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24 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Exactly. Barristan is dismissed of his vows and his duty in the KG, even against his express wishes. Qyburn is stripped of his chain and vow of servitude by the Citadel for unnatural experimentation and practices. Cressen, however, is dismissed by Stannis due to age an infirmity (before he manages to kill himself) with no shame to his service or the Citadel.

So, how can Jon justify sending Aemon off for no particular reason (known to the majority of the NW), leaving the Watch maesterless (ostensibly for years) since Sam is going with him? If Aemon is a sworn brother, he can't leave. Unless you want to count this infraction among the things that got Jon assassinated?

Members of the Night's Watch aren't tied to the Wall, like dogs in a backyard. They travel all over Westeros, all the time.  They go wherever the Lord Commander sends them.

  • Eddard Stark hosts the Lord Commander and several sworn brothers (including a young Mance) at Winterfell, during Jon and Robb's youth.
  • Benjen travels to Winterfell with Jeor's consent during Robert's visit at the start of AGOT.
  • Yoren and other recruiters from the Night's Watch travel the 7K looking to replenish the ranks.  One of these recruiters was present at the Tournament at Harrenhall in the year of the false spring.
  • Ser Alliser Thorne travels to King's Landing and LC Mormont's order, to seek the crown's aid after the first wight attack.

A brother of the Night's Watch belongs wherever the Lord Commander tells him to be, not just at the Wall.

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2 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Members of the Night's Watch aren't tied to the Wall, like dogs in a backyard. They travel all over Westeros, all the time.  They go wherever the Lord Commander sends them.

 

Yes, on assignment. Aemon was being replaced. What was his mission? Sam et al are expected to come back. It don't add up.

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5 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Yes, on assignment. Aemon was being replaced. What was his mission? Sam et al are expected to come back. It don't add up.

Jon could have sent Aemon to Qarth with a mission to open a Taco Bell. It doesn't matter.  Jon wanted to protect Aemon from Melisandre, and he thought the Citadel was the safest place. Jon requested multiple maesters from the Citadel, for more forts than just Castle Black. Sam is going to train, but Jon doesn't intend to leave the Watch without maesters. 

It adds up. The LC can send his men wherever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. Alliser Thorne's assignment wasn't because Thorne was a skilled diplomat, it was simply a way to get the cranky old bastid away from Jon Snow for a little while.  Jon wants to protect Aemon, he thinks the Citadel is the safest place. No more, no less.

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7 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Jon could have sent Aemon to Qarth with a mission to open a Taco Bell. It doesn't matter.  Jon wanted to protect Aemon from Melisandre, and he thought the Citadel was the safest place. Jon requested multiple maesters from the Citadel, for more forts than just Castle Black. Sam is going to train, but Jon doesn't intend to leave the Watch without maesters. 

It adds up. The LC can send his men wherever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. Alliser Thorne's assignment wasn't because Thorne was a skilled diplomat, it was simply a way to get the cranky old bastid away from Jon Snow for a little while.  Jon wants to protect Aemon, he thinks the Citadel is the safest place. No more, no less.

 

I agree with everything you say here except that Jon's real reason for sending a valuable man (old or not) away was not widely known among the Watch AFAIK.

Like I said before, if GRRM weighs in on this then it is resolved, but it still seems to me rather cruel to put people in a position where they may have to choose their own death in order to fulfill another set of protocols.

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3 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

I agree with everything you say here except that Jon's real reason for sending a valuable man (old or not) away was not widely known among the Watch AFAIK.

Like I said before, if GRRM weighs in on this then it is resolved, but it still seems to me rather cruel to put people in a position where they may have to choose their own death in order to fulfill another set of protocols.

Jon balls-out tells Sam the reason for sending Aemon:

Quote

“His life will be at risk. I am aware of that, Sam, but the risk is greater here. Stannis knows who Aemon is. If the red woman requires king’s blood for her spells...”

Jon then tells Sam that the idea was also Aemon's idea:

Quote

“As my lord commands. Does... does Maester Aemon know?”
“It was as much his idea as mine.”

You guys are looking for a mystery when there isn't one.

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4 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Jon balls-out tells Sam the reason for sending Aemon:

Jon then tells Sam that the idea was also Aemon's idea:

You guys are looking for a mystery when there isn't one.

 

21 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Otherwise, how could Jon justify sending Aemon away? If he is part of the Watch, his place is at the Wall until he dies, even if he isn't the attending maester anymore. AFAIK only a couple of people even know the real reason Aemon was dismissed.

 

At least read the thread first, please. A handful of confidants is hardly telling the whole of Castle Black what's really going on. We have no indications that the rest of the Watch know about Mel's plans or that they have any idea why Aemon was sent away other than that he was old and needed replacement. Now Jon, as LC, can order him to go die somewhere else I suppose, but it would be out of line with normal protocols. Eyebrows would be raised at the least and pointed questions asked at the most I would think. Jon had eleven more chapters for someone to inquire, but I don't remember it ever being brought up again after Jon II. So, as I said before, it could just be more on the pile to fuel the conspirators.

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On 3/10/2019 at 11:50 PM, anjulibai said:

A thought occurred to me as I was reading something about Robert wanting to kill all the surviving Targaryens - why didn't he kill Maester Aemon? We know Robert hated all Targaryens and wanted them dead. He was perfectly fine killing the Targaryen children, so why would he demur from killing an old man? 

I see two possibilities:

1) Robert didn't want to piss off the Night's Watch and the North with it.

2) Robert (and most of Westeros) had no idea Aemon Targaryen still was alive. Jon certainly seemed surprised upon realizing who Maester Aemon was. The Citadel would surely have known, but perhaps everyone had forgotten about him. 

Thoughts? Other possibities? 

:dunno:

1. I doubt that.

2. Unless Robert read his history books he may know not that a Targ is maester at the Wall.

3. People of Westeros don't care what is happening at the Wall. Occasionally an honorable soul volunteers (Jon) or a person is sent to the Wall by threat of death (Sam) --- mostly the ones who get sent to the Wall are law breakers of some sort --- opps I guess Satin doesn't fit the description ---- appears Satin was a used up boy toy of some lord.

BTW Jon sent Aemon away because Jon was fearful that Mel might burn Aemon because Mel keeps harping on king's blood stuff.

Aemon was the one who lamented that he should not have left the Wall --- the cold preserves --- check that meat in your freezer.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup
tried to clean up grammer

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18 hours ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Exactly. Barristan is dismissed of his vows and his duty in the KG, even against his express wishes. Qyburn is stripped of his chain and vow of servitude by the Citadel for unnatural experimentation and practices. Cressen, however, is dismissed by Stannis due to age an infirmity (before he manages to kill himself) with no shame to his service or the Citadel.

So, how can Jon justify sending Aemon off for no particular reason (known to the majority of the NW), leaving the Watch maesterless (ostensibly for years) since Sam is going with him? If Aemon is a sworn brother, he can't leave. Unless you want to count this infraction among the things that got Jon assassinated?

Aemon is not leaving the Watch, just the Wall. Plenty of black brothers are dispatched to Westeros for one reason or another: Yoren, Thorne, Sam . . . They just can't renounce their vows and quit the order. Aemon's job will be ostensibly to be the Watch's representative in the Citadel and aid in codifying its history. Sam's will be to forge a chain and return to the Wall. Meanwhile, they have Clydas, plus there is Maester Mullin at the Shadowtower, Maester Harmune of Eastwatch and Jon intends to request more from the Citadel while Sam is in training.

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16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Aemon's job will be ostensibly to be the Watch's representative in the Citadel and aid in codifying its history.

 

At least that makes sense within the confines of the story, although I don't know why the Watch needs a representative in the Citadel. More likely is that the archmaesters won't believe Sam's fantastic tales, but they would be more inclined to believe Aemon if he was still there to back him up.

I know Jon isn't leaving the Watch bereft of maesters, but he is sending their most experienced one away at a crucial time. For people not in the know it would appear odd, unless he were free to go.

 

16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Jon intends to request more from the Citadel while Sam is in training.

 

I've often wondered how this goes down at the Citadel.

"Who wants the worst assignment in the Seven Kingdoms? Volunteers? Anyone?"

Edited by Three-Fingered Pete
errata

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On 3/11/2019 at 3:50 AM, anjulibai said:

A thought occurred to me as I was reading something about Robert wanting to kill all the surviving Targaryens - why didn't he kill Maester Aemon? We know Robert hated all Targaryens and wanted them dead. He was perfectly fine killing the Targaryen children, so why would he demur from killing an old man? 

I see two possibilities:

1) Robert didn't want to piss off the Night's Watch and the North with it.

2) Robert (and most of Westeros) had no idea Aemon Targaryen still was alive. Jon certainly seemed surprised upon realizing who Maester Aemon was. The Citadel would surely have known, but perhaps everyone had forgotten about him. 

Thoughts? Other possibities? 

Robert's rages are genuine but mostly just sound and fury, not amounting to much action.

This is the guy who left Dany alone for thirteen years, only changing his mind when she married into a massive Dothraki army.

Robert killed one Targ, in fair fight.

He also tolerated the Lannister murders, because he had to mostly, not wanting another war against the power and wealth of Casterly Rock. Tywin says Robert showed a look of relief at the sight of the bodies. Tywin may be wrong (he assumes Robert is a calculating politician like himself) - but at any rate, there was no sign of the murderous hatred of 'dragonspawn'.  (And later, other witnesses said everyone was horrified and could hardly bear to look: 'everyone' includes Robert.)

Quote

[Tyrion] ... "Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his thone was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children."

[ASOS - TYRION VI]

Heroes don't kill frail old men, either.

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On 3/15/2019 at 11:44 AM, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

At least that makes sense within the confines of the story, although I don't know why the Watch needs a representative in the Citadel. More likely is that the archmaesters won't believe Sam's fantastic tales, but they would be more inclined to believe Aemon if he was still there to back him up.

I know Jon isn't leaving the Watch bereft of maesters, but he is sending their most experienced one away at a crucial time. For people not in the know it would appear odd, unless he were free to go.

 

 

I've often wondered how this goes down at the Citadel.

"Who wants the worst assignment in the Seven Kingdoms? Volunteers? Anyone?"

Right, I forgot to mention that he will also be there to impart upon his fellow grand maesters the seriousness of the threat from the north.

Eh, I can think of worse assignments than Castle Black. Hellholt doesn't sound terribly pleasant. The Dreadfort. Pyke is probably not a very safe place for maesters. And if the maester in question hails from the north to begin with, CB won't be all that bad.

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