If Joffrey had black hair and was Robert's son would anything have changed

[AzureOwl]

On 3/12/2019 at 8:28 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The better question is: how different would Joffrey be if he was Robert's son?

Would he still have been the little monster that he was? Would he have been more of a traditional Baratheon? How much of his negative traits were due to his being a product of incest as well as being partly Targaryen (yes, I consider the Lannister twins to be half-Targaryen)? Was it nature or nurture that made Joffrey the way he was?

Well, the nurture would've changed as well. Knowing Cersei I doubt she would've loved and spoiled Robert's son to the degree she did Joffrey. 

And Robert would've been way more involved in the kid's upbringing instead of essentially checking out like he did with Joffrey.  

[Headfallsoff]

Robert would have liked him more and this Joffrey would not be so much of a Psycho. I think Robert on a subconscious level didn't care about Joffrey because he looked so much like a Lannister. 

And you can't blame Renly Stannis was doing fuck all on Dragonstone and being incommunicado it was upto Renly to get rid of the Lannisters. Also I wouldn't listen to Lord Varys that guy is a total weirdo and sex pervert to boot. 

[LadyBlackwater]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:28 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The better question is: how different would Joffrey be if he was Robert's son?

Would he still have been the little monster that he was? Would he have been more of a traditional Baratheon? How much of his negative traits were due to his being a product of incest as well as being partly Targaryen (yes, I consider the Lannister twins to be half-Targaryen)? Was it nature or nurture that made Joffrey the way he was?

I can't imagine he would have turned out very different. Everybody says that Cersei ruined Joffrey by telling him all the time that he's the future king and coddling him the way he did. I believe she poisoned the well and he was just destined to be a little shit. Lets not forget the pregnant cat incident, which resulted in Robert hitting knocking him around. 

[Headfallsoff]

YEET

[Ser Lepus]

Jon Arryn and Stannis wouldn't have suspected Cersei's children to be bastards, they wouldn't have poked around for answers. Littlefinger may have still killed Arryn because CHAOS IS A LADDER! LOL!, but I am not so sure... what would he get from that? He became the Lord Warden of the Vale only thanks to the war...

If Littlefinger has Jon Arryn murdered anyways: If Ned doesn't suspect Cersei's children to be bastards then Cersei has no reason to kill Robert so soon, and Ned isn't a threat to Cersei... So he either...

1.-stays as Hand of the King long enough for Sansa to marry Joffrey, or,

2.-if Littlefinger's meddling causes Catelyn to kidnap Tyrion, causing Jamie to attack Ned, causing Tywin to send the Mountain to ravage the countryside... etc., Ned probably is allowed to leave KL safely and return to the North (that was what Cersei and Tywin wanted all along, and as a matter of fact, Cersei, kinda liked Ned... she saw him as a honorable fool, but she admitted that she would like her son to have friends like him...).

If Robert is alive and Ned is allowed to go, then Tyrion returns safely to KL, and the conflict between Starks and Lannisters defuses. The Stark stay in the North, the Lannisters gain more influence over the throne, Tywin probably becoming Hand of the King...

3.-if Ned stays in KL in order to try to fix the mess caused by Catelyn when she kidnapped Tyrion (since Ned doesn't feel so threatened by Lannisters, not knowing about Cersei's adultery), Tyrion would explain everything to both Ned Stark, Jamie Lannister and Tywin Lannister, and Littlefinger better think something clever very fast, because both the Lannisters and the Stark would want to know why he lied about the dagger, incriminating Tyrion and almost provoking a war between the Lannisters and the Starks... Hell, Jamie Lannister may just cut his throat consequences be damned!.

 

[Lucia Targaryen]

Well would Joffrey still have been himself without the inbreeding?

In practice, if Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen had the black hair and blue eyes of Robert then there wouldn't have been a need for Stannis and Jon Arryn to investigate Robert's bastards and everything that came with that.

While I don't think that Ned or Stannis would have gone against Robert's trueborn son, there probably would still have been a war to try an unseat the Lannisters. Plus with Varys, Littlefinger, the Martells, and the Ironborn there was going to be war at some point. 

[Texas Hold Em]

He'd still be a little prick.  Robert is not father of the year.  The Baratheons are not free of the cruel streak.  I would say Robert is a better person than Jaime but neither would play a role in his life.  

[Frey family reunion]

On 3/11/2019 at 4:36 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

If Joff had brown hair Jon Arryn wouldn't have been murdered, because there would have been nothing for him to have pried into. Ned thusly would not have been asked to Hand. The Starks would not have left Winterfell and we wouldn't have a story.

That incest is important!!

Not to say it wouldn't all have ended the same anyway - but I think not, at all.

It would be a totally different story, potentially no war of the 5 kings etc.

Umm, I thought Arryn was poisoned by Lysa under the direction of Baelish.  I think Lysa wanted to kill Jon because he was going to foster Sweet Robin with the Lannisters. 

[The Jingo]

On 1/7/2020 at 10:23 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

He'd still be a little prick.  Robert is not father of the year.  The Baratheons are not free of the cruel streak.  I would say Robert is a better person than Jaime but neither would play a role in his life.  

Joffrey's cruel is arguably the result of two factors:

1) Cersei's coddling.

2) Robert's neglect.

There's also the inbreeding factor I suppose, but we'll set that aside for now.

If Joffrey was Robert's trueborn son then it's doubtful Cersei would have coddled him like she did, if at all. In fact, I'd say that she'd neglect him the way she canonically neglected Myrcella and Tommen. If Tommen and/or Myrcella were sired by Jaime, it's more likely she'd switch targets and coddle them instead and leave Joffrey relatively untouched.

It's also doubtful that if Jofffrey was trueborn he would have been neglected by Robert the way he was. Robert was never going to win father of the year, but we do know that he took at least some interest in his bastards and gave them his attention when he encountered them. That sort of attention was absent from Joffrey's life because Robert subconsciously didn't consider Joffrey as his.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Joffrey ended up growing up to resemble Stannis - bitter at being passed over by those who were supposed to care for him, and unyielding because the world never gave him any leeway.

[Texas Hold Em]

On 1/12/2020 at 9:57 PM, The Jingo said:

Joffrey's cruel is arguably the result of two factors:

1) Cersei's coddling.

2) Robert's neglect.

There's also the inbreeding factor I suppose, but we'll set that aside for now.

If Joffrey was Robert's trueborn son then it's doubtful Cersei would have coddled him like she did, if at all. In fact, I'd say that she'd neglect him the way she canonically neglected Myrcella and Tommen. If Tommen and/or Myrcella were sired by Jaime, it's more likely she'd switch targets and coddle them instead and leave Joffrey relatively untouched.

It's also doubtful that if Jofffrey was trueborn he would have been neglected by Robert the way he was. Robert was never going to win father of the year, but we do know that he took at least some interest in his bastards and gave them his attention when he encountered them. That sort of attention was absent from Joffrey's life because Robert subconsciously didn't consider Joffrey as his.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Joffrey ended up growing up to resemble Stannis - bitter at being passed over by those who were supposed to care for him, and unyielding because the world never gave him any leeway.

Cersei could react that way but even she would not know for sure who the father is.  

[The Jingo]

1 hour ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Cersei could react that way but even she would not know for sure who the father is.  

If Joffrey had black hair and looked like Robert it would be pretty obvious who his father was.

[BlackLightning]

Well, for one, Cersei might have kept Robert around a little longer.

I doubt Renly would have rebelled but it's likely he would have. Depends on exactly how persuasive, invasive and unscrupulous the Tyrells really are...

Melisandre was already on Dragonstone at the time so who knows. It may have taken her longer to turn Stannis but he might've still turned and sought to usurp the Iron Throne.

In any case, I doubt Joffrey would be a good person. He may even be worst because there's a good chance that Cersei would neglect/abuse him because he's Robert's son. Since Joffrey would be bad, Sansa may be in trouble which would spur the Starks and the Tullys to take action.

Mance Rayder and the wildlings were still coming, the Others were still coming, the Targaryens were still coming, Balon Greyjoy still would've been plotting his revenge, Bloodraven was still looking for a successor, etc.

I think that everything that happened and is bound to happen would still happen. I just think that it would happen further down the line. Like I imagine that it would take another 3 years (at the very earliest): Bran would be at least 10, Jon Snow would be a legal adult at 17 and Sansa would be 14 which is a more sensible betrothal age.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:50 PM, TheDrWho said:

I keep playing things over in my head and I feel like if Joffrey was truly Robert's son Ned Stark would have made up some bullshit to disinherit him from the throne and give the Iron Throne to Stannis. I know this doesn't play with the honorable view of Ned Stark that everyone had but looking at Joffrey I could not in good conscious give the Iron Throne to him when he would just be a puppet of his mother and her a puppet of her father. It occurs to me that if Joffrey were a little older and a little more independent then Ned would have no problem supporting his claim but the fact was Joffrey was a boy who would be a puppet in his grandfathers hands. I feel that Ned understood that Stannis would not stand for a Lannister being King while he was alive and that Stannis had a very strong claim.  So as to not throw the realm into civil war again I think that Ned would with very little apprehension give the throne to Joffrey. I think Ned understood that the questionable succession that he tried to force would be challenged on the battlefield by the Lannisters but I don't think he anticipated Renly dividing house Barantheon and I don't think he envisioned Rob Stark declaring himself King in the North.

I know this doesn't need to be said but fuck Renly Baratheon he more than any other individual threw the realm into chaos. If Renly had stood by his brother theree would have been no question as to which house the Iron Throne would have gone to. Fuck Renly I hope he is being tortured in hell.

If Joffrey was Roberts son, Jon Arryn would probably still have been alive. Also, the incest is probably a big part of what caused his cruelty, so he’d probably be a more decent kid without it.

[Jon Fossoway]

I think Joffrey would have grown to be, more or less, the same boy he was during the books. Whatever the color of his hair, and whoever his father is, he has two horrible parents, one mostly absent, the other over protective. I can't remember who told Ned to overthrow Joffrey and place Tommen in the throne, since he was more agreeable or, say, nice. I do believe this would have been the course of actions taken if Ned was out of the picture (even by leaving for Winterfell after Robert's death or just leaving elsewhere). As in, Tommen being king via Joff's death or exile.

The only issue is Renly. He doesn't have any claim to the Throne before the War of the Five Kings, yet he claims it. Another scenario would be him rallying the Reach and the stormlands against the Throne for whatever reason he can make up. He's like them kids who join up in rock bands because they know they look good on tights. And people around them think that too.

[Alysanne Donnelly]

Cersei would have resented and hated him, if she let him be born in the first place. Even if he still had sociopathic tendencies, he would have been neglected instead of encouraged.

[Lion of the West]

On 8/19/2020 at 3:38 AM, Alysanne Donnelly said:

Cersei would have resented and hated him, if she let him be born in the first place. Even if he still had sociopathic tendencies, he would have been neglected instead of encouraged.

That is a very interesting angle to this.

And if this coal-haired Joffrey does not have a father or a mother that he's likely to connect to, who is going to be his surrogate parent? Both Robert's brothers spent time at court, as did Jon Arryn and the manipulative Littlefinger and Varys are also around.

This scenario offers many possible developments.

[The Hoare]

On 8/21/2020 at 4:16 PM, Lion of the West said:

And if this coal-haired Joffrey does not have a father or a mother that he's likely to connect to, who is going to be his surrogate parent? Both Robert's brothers spent time at court, as did Jon Arryn and the manipulative Littlefinger and Varys are also around.

I've always supposed that he would be closer to Renly. In terms of kinship it's the most likely

[TheLastWolf]

On 3/12/2019 at 1:20 AM, TheDrWho said:

I feel like if Joffrey was truly Robert's son Ned Stark would have made up some bullshit to disinherit him from the throne and give the Iron Throne to Stannis.

All this assuming optimistically that Joffrey Wormlips is going to survive till then with black hair. 

Poor Joff will most certainly have a tragic unfortunate accident before his first name day. Oh Cersei... 

[Endymion I Targaryen]

• Robert didn't like Joffrey because he was who he was not because he didn't look like him. That doesn't change. 
• Robert is a bad father who cares mostly about having a good time. That also doesn't change.
• Cersei is a dangerous mother and that doesn't change. Joffrey being Robert's son would be something Cersei would hate but she loves her children so that wouldnt be much of a problem.
• Ned Stark, Jon Arryn and Stannis Baratheon would support Joffrey if he was clearly legit.
• Joffrey is still a product of bad parents and bad parenting so he is still a terrible person. (poor Sansa)
• The Targaryen conquest is much more difficult because the Seven Kingdoms are much more united. Littlefinger would definitely try to divide them but it would be more difficult.

[James Steller]

On 3/11/2019 at 10:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

But, certainly, if Ned had known Joffrey was Robert's son (regardless of his looks) he would have backed him - and in that sense, Cersei, too, although he would have likely prevented her from playing an active part in the Regency government. Ned may have been concerned about Joff's personality, but his personality and values seem to have been far too rigid to actually cite character flaws as a reason to withhold the throne from the son of his best friend and king, a son who had been anointed the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and who should succeed to the throne by all the laws and customs of the land.

Now that is a hell of a thought. Imagining Ned swearing fealty to Joffrey but then usurping Cersei from her power. He becomes a different version of Cregan Stark. He’d be claiming the regency as Robert willed it, and then he’d be trying to protect Joffrey from traitors and liars. Would Ned become as vilified as Richard III clearly was? Or would his supposed incorruptibility give way and he becomes a monster? That’s a tantalizing hypothetical, but I’ll stop there to avoid sounding too fan ficky.