If Joffrey had black hair and was Robert's son would anything have changed

[TheLastWolf]

 

On 9/12/2020 at 8:06 PM, TheLastWolf said:

On 3/12/2019 at 1:20 AM, TheDrWho said:

I feel like if Joffrey was truly Robert's son Ned Stark would have made up some bullshit to disinherit him from the throne and give the Iron Throne to Stannis.

All this assuming optimistically that Joffrey Wormlips is going to survive till then with black hair. 

Poor Joff will most certainly have a tragic unfortunate accident before his first name day. Oh Cersei... 

If Joffrey had Black hair, then RIP Joff or Joff goes the way of Gendry (if the blonde mother was Cersei)

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, James Steller said:

Now that is a hell of a thought. Imagining Ned swearing fealty to Joffrey but then usurping Cersei from her power. He becomes a different version of Cregan Stark. He’d be claiming the regency as Robert willed it, and then he’d be trying to protect Joffrey from traitors and liars. Would Ned become as vilified as Richard III clearly was? Or would his supposed incorruptibility give way and he becomes a monster? That’s a tantalizing hypothetical, but I’ll stop there to avoid sounding too fan ficky.

With Joff being clearly Robert's son we would also have little to no motive for Cersei to arrange Robert's death. In fact, she would want him to stick around at least until Joff is old enough to rule in his own right. Then Robert's brothers would also have less of a chance - or perhaps none at all - to challenge Joffrey's succession. We have to keep in mind that Cersei wants Robert and his brothers gone because of the twincest. Robert must not find out about that and Stannis and Renly are a real danger to her children because they lack a blood claim because of the twincest.

Without that, Ned would still not get along with the Lannisters because of Jaime and Tywin, but Cersei and her family would have less problems with Ned, knowing that the man is fiercely loyal to Robert - and thus also to his children.

In the books as we have them Ned has no problems with Joff. He doesn't even seem to realize that he might be a bad king. It is Robert who doesn't like his son much, but Ned is only focused on Cersei, Jaime, and Tywin.

Thus if Robert had died prematurely due to some hunting accident or illness, and he still had named Ned Lord Regent and Protector, there may not have been a struggle for the Regency government. Cersei only seized the Regency because she knew Ned planned to destroy her and her children. If there hadn't been any such danger, she wouldn't have been part of the Regency government, but that's hardly that unusual for a queen.

Even if there had been some quarrel between Starks and Lannisters, there wouldn't have been a war. They would have found some modus vivendi, perhaps by Tywin playing a role in the government, or, more likely, by Ned following Littlefinger's advice and binding the king and his family closer together by marrying Myrcella to Robb and Arya to Tommen.

[James Steller]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

With Joff being clearly Robert's son we would also have little to no motive for Cersei to arrange Robert's death. In fact, she would want him to stick around at least until Joff is old enough to rule in his own right. Then Robert's brothers would also have less of a chance - or perhaps none at all - to challenge Joffrey's succession. We have to keep in mind that Cersei wants Robert and his brothers gone because of the twincest. Robert must not find out about that and Stannis and Renly are a real danger to her children because they lack a blood claim because of the twincest.

Without that, Ned would still not get along with the Lannisters because of Jaime and Tywin, but Cersei and her family would have less problems with Ned, knowing that the man is fiercely loyal to Robert - and thus also to his children.

In the books as we have them Ned has no problems with Joff. He doesn't even seem to realize that he might be a bad king. It is Robert who doesn't like his son much, but Ned is only focused on Cersei, Jaime, and Tywin.

Thus if Robert had died prematurely due to some hunting accident or illness, and he still had named Ned Lord Regent and Protector, there may not have been a struggle for the Regency government. Cersei only seized the Regency because she knew Ned planned to destroy her and her children. If there hadn't been any such danger, she wouldn't have been part of the Regency government, but that's hardly that unusual for a queen.

Even if there had been some quarrel between Starks and Lannisters, there wouldn't have been a war. They would have found some modus vivendi, perhaps by Tywin playing a role in the government, or, more likely, by Ned following Littlefinger's advice and binding the king and his family closer together by marrying Myrcella to Robb and Arya to Tommen.

Well, Littlefinger might still poison Jon Arryn to turn the Lannisters and Starks against each other. He couldn’t have succeeded so well if that grudge was one sided. The Lannisters were contemptuous of the Starks and Ned loathes Tywin for his actions during Robert’s Rebellion. And I highly doubt that Tywin would let anyone else be protector of the realm once Robert kicks the bucket. Especially with his own grandchildren set to inherit the throne. The Lannisters would want to get Ned out of power so they can take it for themselves no matter what, and all the while, Littlefinger would be there, working to destroy Ned so he can finally take Catelyn for himself. Ned was a dead man the second he left the North, no matter how that story played out.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Well, Littlefinger might still poison Jon Arryn to turn the Lannisters and Starks against each other. He couldn’t have succeeded so well if that grudge was one sided. The Lannisters were contemptuous of the Starks and Ned loathes Tywin for his actions during Robert’s Rebellion. And I highly doubt that Tywin would let anyone else be protector of the realm once Robert kicks the bucket. Especially with his own grandchildren set to inherit the throne. The Lannisters would want to get Ned out of power so they can take it for themselves no matter what, and all the while, Littlefinger would be there, working to destroy Ned so he can finally take Catelyn for himself. Ned was a dead man the second he left the North, no matter how that story played out.

Jon Arryn might be poisoned still if Lysa wanted to prevent him from sending her son away, but they wouldn't have any chance to pin that on the Lannisters ... who then would lack a real motive - which they only have in a twincest scenario.

And Littlefinger didn't really succeed all that well. It was things out of his control - Bran's fall, the attempt on his life, and the Mycah affair that really antagonized the Starks. He had nothing to do with either. In fact, we should not imagine the letter as a clever means to put Starks and Lannisters against each other, but rather as means to divert attention from Lysa/Littlefinger and to ensure Ned would accept the offer of Hand (because that would mean he could look into the death of Jon Arryn, a man he loved).

Littlefinger doesn't really want a war. He wants the threat of conflict and war to be able to offer solutions which will ensure his further rise to the top.

Tywin isn't at court. If that doesn't change in our scenario then he would have no direct say in the matter of a regency government during Joff's minority. And I'm not sure Cersei would even want her father to be there, looming over here and interfering with her affairs. She makes him Hand in war, not in peace time. If she had issues with Ned in such a scenario she would likely want Jaime to be included or run the show, but not Tywin.

But then, okay, even if we assume Ned didn't have time to install his people at court and make allies with the people not liking the Lannisters (in a non-twincest setting he could have made allies in Stannis and Renly, for instance) then we do have the simple fact that Ned is not going to fight with teeth and claws for the regency ... and Cersei would know/realize this.

Thus Ned might be ousted and sent back home, but there simply wouldn't be a war because neither party has a good reason to go to war.

[James Steller]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon Arryn might be poisoned still if Lysa wanted to prevent him from sending her son away, but they wouldn't have any chance to pin that on the Lannisters ... who then would lack a real motive - which they only have in a twincest scenario.

And Littlefinger didn't really succeed all that well. It was things out of his control - Bran's fall, the attempt on his life, and the Mycah affair that really antagonized the Starks. He had nothing to do with either. In fact, we should not imagine the letter as a clever means to put Starks and Lannisters against each other, but rather as means to divert attention from Lysa/Littlefinger and to ensure Ned would accept the offer of Hand (because that would mean he could look into the death of Jon Arryn, a man he loved).

Littlefinger doesn't really want a war. He wants the threat of conflict and war to be able to offer solutions which will ensure his further rise to the top.

Tywin isn't at court. If that doesn't change in our scenario then he would have no direct say in the matter of a regency government during Joff's minority. And I'm not sure Cersei would even want her father to be there, looming over here and interfering with her affairs. She makes him Hand in war, not in peace time. If she had issues with Ned in such a scenario she would likely want Jaime to be included or run the show, but not Tywin.

But then, okay, even if we assume Ned didn't have time to install his people at court and make allies with the people not liking the Lannisters (in a non-twincest setting he could have made allies in Stannis and Renly, for instance) then we do have the simple fact that Ned is not going to fight with teeth and claws for the regency ... and Cersei would know/realize this.

Thus Ned might be ousted and sent back home, but there simply wouldn't be a war because neither party has a good reason to go to war.

If Jaime was willing to openly attack Ned in the streets of King’s Landing, then I’m quite willing to believe that the Lannisters would seek Ned’s death, even if there isn’t a captive Tyrion to deal with. I agree with you that there wouldn’t necessarily need to be a war, but Ned isn’t going to die of old age in King’s Landing, and whatever happens to him, there will be some kind of consequences. Maybe they use rumours and conspiracy to frame Ned (there’s certainly precedent for that) so he’s either forced to resign in disgrace or even be accused of treason and executed for it (ie the same thing that happened in the story).

And who said Cersei would be okay with Tywin being in charge? She wouldn’t have the power to keep him out of King’s Landing if he shows up, and who’s going to refuse him a place on the small council if an opening comes up? Tywin is one of the Iron Throne’s creditors, he has more right than most to be appointed a high position of power. And he wants power more than Ned. 
 

Plus, all that aside, Littlefinger might come up with a whole new plan to disrupt the realm, one which does end up causing a war from which he profits.

And frankly, who knows what YOU would be doing in the middle of all this. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

If Jaime was willing to openly attack Ned in the streets of King’s Landing, then I’m quite willing to believe that the Lannisters would seek Ned’s death, even if there isn’t a captive Tyrion to deal with.

But that's a twincest issue thing, in a string of events that can only happen with the twincest setting in mind.

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

I agree with you that there wouldn’t necessarily need to be a war, but Ned isn’t going to die of old age in King’s Landing, and whatever happens to him, there will be some kind of consequences. Maybe they use rumours and conspiracy to frame Ned (there’s certainly precedent for that) so he’s either forced to resign or even be accused of treason and executed for it (ie the same thing that happened in the story).

Something like that might be possible if Ned isn't willing to fight for the regency. But I don't think Cersei would have issues with Ned if he ended up on Joff's side helping them to curtail or even destroy Robert's brothers and their ambitions. Because Ned wouldn't be on board with them if Joff was Robert's son.

1 minute ago, James Steller said:

And who said Cersei would be okay with Tywin being in charge? She wouldn’t have the power to keep him out of King’s Landing if he shows up, and who’s going to refuse him a place on the small council if an opening comes up? Tywin is one of the Iron Throne’s creditors, he has more right than most to be appointed a high position of power. And he wants power more than Ned.

Tywin isn't at court, and he has no way of forcing the court to offer him offices or allow him to be Hand or run the regency government.

Tywin also doesn't seem to be that keen for power at court, or else he would have had some office on the council during Robert's reign.

He only takes matters into his own hands when the rise and reign of his grandson is under threat.

[R2D]

Tywin can't force people to hand the Regency government over to him but people would probably want him to have it instead of Cersei so it wouldn't matter.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/18/2020 at 3:47 PM, Jon Fossoway said:

I think Joffrey would have grown to be, more or less, the same boy he was during the books. Whatever the color of his hair, and whoever his father is, he has two horrible parents, one mostly absent, the other over protective. I can't remember who told Ned to overthrow Joffrey and place Tommen in the throne, since he was more agreeable or, say, nice. I do believe this would have been the course of actions taken if Ned was out of the picture (even by leaving for Winterfell after Robert's death or just leaving elsewhere). As in, Tommen being king via Joff's death or exile.

The only issue is Renly. He doesn't have any claim to the Throne before the War of the Five Kings, yet he claims it. Another scenario would be him rallying the Reach and the stormlands against the Throne for whatever reason he can make up. He's like them kids who join up in rock bands because they know they look good on tights. And people around them think that too.

I don’t see how Robert can reasonably be blamed for how Joffrey turned out, seeing as he tried to discipline him and Joffrey wasn’t even his kid. Joffreys madness is probably caused by the fact that he was born of incest between Cersei and Jaime. All of Roberts actual children turned out to be decent kids (Mya, Gendry, Edric and Bella (if she’s his).

[argonak]

On 9/18/2020 at 8:19 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

I don’t see how Robert can reasonably be blamed for how Joffrey turned out, seeing as he tried to discipline him and Joffrey wasn’t even his kid. Joffreys madness is probably caused by the fact that he was born of incest between Cersei and Jaime. All of Roberts actual children turned out to be decent kids (Mya, Gendry, Edric and Bella (if she’s his).

You don't discipline a child by nearly knocking his teeth out one time when he does something really bad.   Robert didn't want anything to do with Joffrey from the beginning, at least according to Cersei.   Robert was crap person and a crap dad.  

However, if Joff had been born with black hair, the proximity of him being around all the time probably would have won Robert over, as Robert would have seen himself in Joff.  He'd still have been a crap dad, but he'd have been a crap dad who actually tried a little.  Joff would have grown up an entirely different person, because even if Robert didn't actually care that much about him, Joff would have thought he did.  Joff would have been accompanying Robert on his hunts, getting training advice, all those things.  He'd still have been a little shit, but he'd have been a little shit in Robert's image, instead of Cersei's.

And like everyone else is saying, Ned would have had no reason to suspect Joff wasn't Rob's son, and would have been a loyal hand to the boy.  There'd have been no threat to Cersei or the Lannisters, and once they worked the Tyrion abduction crisis out, things would have settled down.  Ned would have probably been politely fired, replaced with Tywin, and gone home to the North to die of an infection in his leg.  Rob would have been made Lord Paramount of the North, and led the battle against the Others when Winter came.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 10/1/2020 at 11:08 AM, argonak said:

You don't discipline a child by nearly knocking his teeth out one time when he does something really bad.   Robert didn't want anything to do with Joffrey from the beginning, at least according to Cersei.   Robert was crap person and a crap dad.  

However, if Joff had been born with black hair, the proximity of him being around all the time probably would have won Robert over, as Robert would have seen himself in Joff.  He'd still have been a crap dad, but he'd have been a crap dad who actually tried a little.  Joff would have grown up an entirely different person, because even if Robert didn't actually care that much about him, Joff would have thought he did.  Joff would have been accompanying Robert on his hunts, getting training advice, all those things.  He'd still have been a little shit, but he'd have been a little shit in Robert's image, instead of Cersei's.

And like everyone else is saying, Ned would have had no reason to suspect Joff wasn't Rob's son, and would have been a loyal hand to the boy.  There'd have been no threat to Cersei or the Lannisters, and once they worked the Tyrion abduction crisis out, things would have settled down.  Ned would have probably been politely fired, replaced with Tywin, and gone home to the North to die of an infection in his leg.  Rob would have been made Lord Paramount of the North, and led the battle against the Others when Winter came.

You mean that he was torturing small animals. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer. John Wayne Gacy. Joffrey was in good company. Joffrey was messed up from birth. At least part of it was probably, because he was born of incest.

“And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.”

“Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I’d allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I’d kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things...”

“It appears things needed to be said.” Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. “Go.”

She went, seething.

Except that it’s very clear that he did care about Joffrey.

“I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

“Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that’s what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?”

“He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?”

“It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, Ned. You don’t know him as I do.” He sighed and shook his head.

Joffrey was accompanying Robert on his hunts.

Prince Joffrey rode with his father, so Robb had been allowed to join the hunters as well. Uncle Benjen, Jory, Theon Greyjoy, Ser Rodrik, and even the queen's funny little brother had all ridden out with them.

Note that Robb was brought with the men, because Robert brought Joffrey with them. It’s mentioned in the other hunt at Kings Landing that Joffrey was with Robert again. He wasn’t being left behind.

Robert wasn’t a doting father to Cersei’s kids. That’s partially due to Joffreys nature and an inherent disconnect (Cersei says that whenever Robert tried picking up her kids, they cried and when he picked up his actual children, they laughed). But I have a hard time blaming him for how Joffrey turned out. Of Joffreys three parents, he had the least responsibility and did the most, even if you could say that discipline was infrequent. Cersei loved Joffrey and encouraged his bad behaviour. Jaime ignored Joffrey and couldn’t have cared less about him (in his defence he’s trying to be better with Tommen). Robert had no part in creating Joffrey and was the only one of the three to try and straighten him out. Unlike Jaime, it’s clear that he cared about his not son too, even if he didn’t really like him.

[Ellaena]

If Joffrey or all of the kids were Robert's, the entire dynamic changes! Long answer as there is a lot to unpack.

First of all, Cersei would have to be a different person to allow herself to have Robert's children. Would this Cersei love her children anyway or would her resentment trickle down to them as they would be a living embodiment of her lack of agency? I know she spits out some bullshit to Sansa about how she might not love her husband but she will love his children, but Cersei most certainly made sure she will never birth any of Robert's children, even going as far as aborting one of them. So Cersei herself would have to be somewhat different to begin with for the children to be Robert's.

But lets say Cersei is a different person and she allows herself to birth Robert's children and she still loves them. It's very likely Joffrey ends up the same way. Please understand that Joffrey is very much a product of both of his parents and Robert would not suddenly have a personality transplant just because his child is a brunette. He was decent to Mya because he was a pre-war teenager at the time and on good terms with her mum.  He is not on good terms with Cersei and as much as he is an absentee dad, Cersei also plays a big role in keeping her children away from him. As long as Robert has children with Cersei and both him and Cersei are not completely different people from how we know them then Robert will not be involved in the children's lives. Be it out of spite or because Cersei sees the children as extensions of herself still, she will keep him away, and he in return will not take much interest in them.

If Cersei resents her children then Joffrey is not raised primarily by his mother and Robert might be more involved purely because Cersei is not blocking him or might still not care much. Either way, this Joffrey has more chance of being more like Tommen and Myrcella, who by all accounts we have seen to be decent people. So the only scenario where Joffrey has a chance of being a decent person is one where Cersei is not involved in his upbringing.

However, at this point the political landscape looks different. Cersei has ensured the stability of this Lannister-Baratheon dynasty. Jon Arryn has no reason to suspect foul play and likely does not die. Yes, Lysa would still have a reason to get rid of him, but would Littlefinger? Littlefinger is the one who devises the plan, Lysa executes it. He needs Jon Arryn dead in the main series as he is not ready to have the Lannisters outed, so if Jon Arryn is not about to topple the Lannisters then does Littlefinger have a reason to get rid of him? Without Jon Arryn being dead the position of hand is not available. Ned Stark is not in KL. Cersei has no reason to get rid of Robert when she did. Renly's plan of supplanting Cersei with Margaery also does not make much sense when there are 3 trueblood children around and there is no reason to suspect them not to be Robert's. Stannis would not think himself the rightful heir. Renly would not think the throne is ripe for the taking. The North does not declare independence. The Others/Daenerys/Aegon find Westeros in a somewhat better shape. Varys would still try to destabilise things, but would need another strategy. Littlefinger would also still be there ready to take advantage of the chaos.

Lets move this one step further then. Lets say Jon Arryn does die and the Starks and the others suspect foul play was involved and that the Lannisters had some other reason to want him dead. Lets say Cersei kills Robert for other reasons as well, such as wanting to be free of him now that she has a child who is close to his majority. Maybe she wants the regency and to enjoy her time in the sun. Stannis still would not think of himself as the rightful heir. Ned would not think of betraying Robert's son but would be weary of the Lannisters. The most likely scenario is that Tywin shows up and removes Cersei from the picture and takes main control of Joffrey's upbringing just like he meant to do in the main series. Ned does not back down because he thinks he has a duty to protect Robert's heir and keep the Lannisters in check. The Lannister have no excuse to declare the Starks as traitors. Potentially Tywin agrees to a shared regency a la Aegon III. Ned would still call for Stannis, but this time for support due to his suspicions that the Lannisters had Jon Arryn and Robert killed. Stannis would probably be part of the shared regency.

So now you still have a Lannister-Stark power struggle but it's over Robert's heir. There is no War of the Five Kings. The Tyrells will be pushing hard for a Margery-Joffrey match knowing of the skirmishes between the Lannisters and the Starks and how Tywin might not want to have a Stark queen. If Stannis is convinced of some Lannister foul play as well he allies himself with the Starks in the attempt to diminish the Lannisters' power in court and over the heir.

So you could end up with Lannister-Tyrell vs Stark-Baratheon skirmishes going on until either Daenerys or the Others come knocking on Westeros' door.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/9/2020 at 10:58 AM, Ellaena said:

So you could end up with Lannister-Tyrell vs Stark-Baratheon skirmishes going on until either Daenerys or the Others come knocking on Westeros' door.

You would also end up with another, somewhat more effective Ironborn rebellion.

Balon Greyjoy was essentially ready for war at the end of A Game of Thrones. And Euron has had his eye on the Iron Throne for God-knows-how-long. If either one of them declares the Iron Islands independent and attacks the North, the Reach, the Riverlands or the West at the right time, then you start to have some problems.

The problems won't be as serious as they are in the main series but yeah...it'd be bad.

Especially since religious tensions will weaken Team Stark-Baratheon and the YMBQ/Valonqar prophecy will poison the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

[Ellaena]

On 12/25/2020 at 2:17 AM, BlackLightning said:

You would also end up with another, somewhat more effective Ironborn rebellion.

Balon Greyjoy was essentially ready for war at the end of A Game of Thrones. And Euron has had his eye on the Iron Throne for God-knows-how-long. If either one of them declares the Iron Islands independent and attacks the North, the Reach, the Riverlands or the West at the right time, then you start to have some problems.

Basically the skeleton for skirmishes are there no matter what due to Robert's ineffective rule, his reliance on John Arryn and the Lannisters and the Lannister's own ambitions, no to mention the precedent that Robert's Rebellion set which is that one can change the ruling dynasty of the 7 kingdoms.
This reminds me of the political landscape before the Dance of the Dragons as far back as the Council of 101 which I have always said seemed to have delayed the Dance by one generation. Whenever you look at the different dragon riding branches/families and their own ambitions it seems inevitable that conflict will arise.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/31/2020 at 4:51 AM, Ellaena said:

the precedent that Robert's Rebellion set which is that one can change the ruling dynasty of the 7 kingdoms

Exactly.

This is Renly's underlying cause for rebellion.

On 12/31/2020 at 4:51 AM, Ellaena said:

This reminds me of the political landscape before the Dance of the Dragons as far back as the Council of 101 which I have always said seemed to have delayed the Dance by one generation. Whenever you look at the different dragon riding branches/families and their own ambitions it seems inevitable that conflict will arise.

Agreed.

However, I do think you could've avoided both the Dance of the Dragons and the Great Council of 101 by simply allowing Rhaenys to become the ruling Queen after Jaehaerys I

She is the daughter of the Crown Prince and the granddaughter of the King, the eldest of all his grandchildren. She is a strong and healthy woman. She is a dragonrider. She is married to the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms and has two healthy children.

If she followed Jaehaerys as Queen, then there's no reason why she shouldn't, couldn't or wouldn't make it so that her Laenor was a Targaryen.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 3/11/2019 at 3:50 PM, TheDrWho said:

I keep playing things over in my head and I feel like if Joffrey was truly Robert's son Ned Stark would have made up some bullshit to disinherit him from the throne and give the Iron Throne to Stannis. I know this doesn't play with the honorable view of Ned Stark that everyone had but looking at Joffrey I could not in good conscious give the Iron Throne to him when he would just be a puppet of his mother and her a puppet of her father. It occurs to me that if Joffrey were a little older and a little more independent then Ned would have no problem supporting his claim but the fact was Joffrey was a boy who would be a puppet in his grandfathers hands. I feel that Ned understood that Stannis would not stand for a Lannister being King while he was alive and that Stannis had a very strong claim.  So as to not throw the realm into civil war again I think that Ned would with very little apprehension give the throne to Joffrey. I think Ned understood that the questionable succession that he tried to force would be challenged on the battlefield by the Lannisters but I don't think he anticipated Renly dividing house Barantheon and I don't think he envisioned Rob Stark declaring himself King in the North.

I know this doesn't need to be said but fuck Renly Baratheon he more than any other individual threw the realm into chaos. If Renly had stood by his brother theree would have been no question as to which house the Iron Throne would have gone to. Fuck Renly I hope he is being tortured in hell.

 

Stannis would have stayed loyal to the throne .

[aeverett]

On 4/10/2019 at 9:33 AM, Syl of Syl said:

If Joff looked like Robert, I think Robert would have shown more love towards his son. We can see there is a coldness, and Robert knows that Joff isn't his subconsciously, even if he won't admit that to himself. I have to think that Robert treats Joff differently if he looked like himself, just as Cersei would likely not dote on him so much if he looked like Robert rather than like her and Jaime. So I think he would have had a completely different upbringing and would probably have a different personality.

Robert didn't reject Joffrey because of his looks, or any subconscious understandings.   He did so due to his temperament, Joffrey's fussiness as a baby whenever Robert held him, his willingness to cut open a cat at the age of four, basically, more than a decade of watching the boy grow up and repeatedly being repulsed by what he saw.   If anything, Robert likely believed Joffrey possessed by Targaryen madness, thanks to his own grandmother's tainted blood, a Mad King-to-be reborn in his own line.   If Joffrey had been his or looked like him, but been the same person on the inside, he'd have pushed him away even more.   

[Aegon the Restorer]

On 3/11/2019 at 4:36 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

If Joff had brown hair Jon Arryn wouldn't have been murdered, because there would have been nothing for him to have pried into. Ned thusly would not have been asked to Hand. The Starks would not have left Winterfell and we wouldn't have a story.

That incest is important!!

Not to say it wouldn't all have ended the same anyway - but I think not, at all.

It would be a totally different story, potentially no war of the 5 kings etc.

Only partially true. The War of the Five Kings is largely a game being played by Varys and Illyrio. They need chaos in Westeros in order for Aegon to have even a remote chance of winning the Iron Throne. So, Bobby B needs to die, Jon Arryn needs to die, and they need several pretenders and a lot of important people dying.

More likely, they'd poison Robert and Jon Arryn in short succession, leaving a power vacuum, and they'd help Renly launch a palace coup against the weak and vulnerable Lannister-Baratheon regime. Cersei isn't remotely competent enough to outwit all the players that would be posed against her, so Joffrey and Tommen likely wind up dead, with Renly agreeing to marry Myrcella to his future heir by Margery in exchange for Tywin's support. Ned Stark, outraged, would march south and try to avenge Bobby's children and place Myrcella on the throne regardless (or maybe Stannis if he escaped the palace coup, as Westeros practices strict male-line preference primogeniture, so a brother has a stronger claim than a daughter, arguably). So, it would be Ned, Stannis, and the Riverlands against the Lannisters, the Tyrells, and Renly's Stormlands regime. The Ironborn declare independence and start invading shit like they always seem to do during civil wars, Ned Stark may well die in battle, Renly bites a bullet, and the Tyrells try to marry Edric Storm to Margery, and crown him, so now we have the Lannisters fighting for Myrcella, Starks and the Tullys fighting for Stannis, and the Tyrells and the Stormlands throwing their lot behind Bobby B's charismatic teenage highborn bastard son. This goes on for a year or two.... Tywin Lannister and Olenna Redwyne take knives to the throat in the middle of the night and/or are poisoned/murdered by the Dornish,

Aegon crosses the Narrow Sea, boinks Arianne Martell, and picks up the pieces as the fragmented, war-torn Westeros welcomes the return of the Targaryens because, for all their flaws, the Targaryens, aside from Mad Aerys, Maegor the Cruel, and Aegon the Unworthy, were never *this* dysfunctional.

If Stannis agrees to bend the knee, he may be allowed to keep the Stormlands (given his strong sense of duty, Varys would know that there's 0 chance of rebellions from him in the future).

[Aegon the Restorer]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:53 PM, BlackLightning said:

Exactly.

This is Renly's underlying cause for rebellion.

Agreed.

However, I do think you could've avoided both the Dance of the Dragons and the Great Council of 101 by simply allowing Rhaenys to become the ruling Queen after Jaehaerys I

She is the daughter of the Crown Prince and the granddaughter of the King, the eldest of all his grandchildren. She is a strong and healthy woman. She is a dragonrider. She is married to the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms and has two healthy children.

If she followed Jaehaerys as Queen, then there's no reason why she shouldn't, couldn't or wouldn't make it so that her Laenor was a Targaryen.

 

Agreed, mostly. She'd also probably have pushed harder to have more children, so that the succession would be more secure, and some of her sons could take the Velaryon name and the Seasnake's titles and incomes after he bites the bullet eventually.

Really, Rhaenys got fucked over unnecessarily here, as she was the heir under both the cognatic/Dornish succession that Targaryen women tend to prefer for obvious reasons, AND under traditional Andal succession law (sons -> daughters -> brothers -> sisters -> uncles -> aunts -> male cousins -> female cousins) so virtually nobody could reasonably challenge her claim.

I think the big reason Jaehaerys did this was because he basically usurped Rhaena and Aegon Uncrowned's daughters, he didn't want to view himself as a usurper who in some ways was little better than Maegor the Cruel principally. Another reason is probably that he feared that his usurpation of his nieces would be viewed by the tradition-loving Westerosi as an iron precedent in regards to the succession, thus opening up room for future civil wars launched by ambitious uncles and cousins against rightful queens.

The thing I think we're really supposed to pick up on here is that monarchy is a shitty system that is almost guaranteed to lead to succession wars no matter how strong the precedents you set are, and throwing WMD's into the mix is never going to end well for anybody.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/1/2021 at 7:26 AM, Aegon the Restorer said:

I think the big reason Jaehaerys did this was because he basically usurped Rhaena and Aegon Uncrowned's daughters, he didn't want to view himself as a usurper who in some ways was little better than Maegor the Cruel principally. Another reason is probably that he feared that his usurpation of his nieces would be viewed by the tradition-loving Westerosi as an iron precedent in regards to the succession, thus opening up room for future civil wars launched by ambitious uncles and cousins against rightful queens.

The way that Princess Aerea was treated still bothers me to this day.

The problem with Jaehaerys is that Aerea was Maegor's acknowledged heir, she was a minor at the time of Maegor's death and her would-be regent mother abdicated on her behalf.

It's a sticky situation but Jaehaerys is something of a waffle. For example, he upholds Maegor's reign and policies as legitimate but names him an usurper; 

On 3/1/2021 at 7:26 AM, Aegon the Restorer said:

The thing I think we're really supposed to pick up on here is that monarchy is a shitty system that is almost guaranteed to lead to succession wars no matter how strong the precedents you set are, and throwing WMD's into the mix is never going to end well for anybody.

That's a good point.

While I don't think that monarchy, in and of itself, is a "shitty system," I do think that succession crises are inevitable when you have monarchies, especially in feudal or decentralized nations. And everyone knows that once succession crises get out of control, they lead to succession wars.

That's why Britain's Glorious Revolution in the 17th Century was so glorious and why the transfer of power in democracies and republics are still such a big deal.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 3/5/2021 at 2:33 PM, BlackLightning said:

That's why Britain's Glorious Revolution in the 17th Century was so glorious and why the transfer of power in democracies and republics are still such a big deal.

Hear, hear!

So, when the wheel gets broken will be looking at some sort of constitutional monarchy? Or would Westeros fall afoul and end up with Estates? The Lords, The Faith, The Smallfolk?

I love how this conversation has evolved.